1 hour ago, save the frogs said:

no one cares what you're doing, unless it's illegal.

more surveillance = safer world for everyone

True, up to a point. Nothing is perfect, the world may be safer, but what kind of lives would everyone have? I mean everyone from your local dustbin man up to your lieing hypocritical MP.

2 hours ago, NoshowJones said:

"I am an honest person and pay my taxes,"  If you are a Brit, there is no reason to be honest when your government most certainly isn't. Two homes at the taxpayers expense, other jobs while collecting the full MP's wages, various other "expenses" too many to mention.

 

Dishonesty, tax evasion,  and other misdeeds have a day of reckoning.  Rubert Grint, thought he was being smart and thought he could hide behind his accountants, but he is ultimately liable as he approved the filings and  tax returns. He now owes  £1.8m in back taxes for his 2011-2012  declaration of  £4.5m in income as a capital asset rather than as income. He thought he could  get by with the lower 10% capital gains tax rate, rather than the higher income tax rate of 52%. His case  had  gone on for years and now in addition to his tax liability, he has his  legal costs.  Previously,  he was caught trying to play the filing year system by declaring his income in a lower tax applicable year and thereby receive a  £1m tax refund. The tax man and the grim reaper don't leave anyone behind.

 

1 hour ago, save the frogs said:

and how can anyone pay for a hooker? I guess you need to buy her jewellery? 

I wonder how many of them have a QR card ready and waiting in their handbag.

On 12/7/2024 at 10:51 PM, Chris Daley said:

How about you?  Do you still use cash or do prefer the cashless society?

  For me, CASH IS KING!

On a few occasions, I use my bank VISA debit card.

One of my pet hates is being held up in the queue at our MAKRO whilst problems with banking apps and QR codes on smartphones has to be resolved by a supervisor who has to be called. A right pain in the neck! 

4 hours ago, NoshowJones said:

"I am an honest person and pay my taxes,"  If you are a Brit, there is no reason to be honest when your government most certainly isn't. Two homes at the taxpayers expense, other jobs while collecting the full MP's wages, various other "expenses" too many to mention.

 

   Its not illegal to have more than 1 job .

M.P's usually have other high paying jobs to supplement their low M.P  wage 

29 minutes ago, Burma Bill said:

  For me, CASH IS KING!

On a few occasions, I use my bank VISA debit card.

One of my pet hates is being held up in the queue at our MAKRO whilst problems with banking apps and QR codes on smartphones has to be resolved by a supervisor who has to be called. A right pain in the neck! 

 

  Then you get the cashier counting the change about five times

I enjoy both cash and cashless, depending on the venue.

I don't live in fear of the government having my data. There really isn't much hidden now from those who wish to know. The government already knows how much money I have, where I travel, and even who I meet. I don't need to hide myself for any other reason than to avoid spam email... and my email client removes most of that!

2 hours ago, Nick Carter icp said:

Then you get the cashier counting the change about five times

which is seconds compared to the person calling his friend / wife for the password on his account so he can FINALLY pay for his transaction.  Just today got behind someone that couldn't figure the mobile payment.   Three employees and a manager, finally he left with his stuff.  UGH>

 

two years ago there was a popular virus in Thailand. On infecting your computer or smartphone it withdraw several thousand baht per day. It's ok if you are in your own country - you have friends and relatives to help you to survive until the next salary date. But if you are in Thailand it brings so many problems...
That`s why I prefer cash in Thailand - no chances for any virus to get my money.

1 hour ago, LivingNThailand said:

which is seconds compared to the person calling his friend / wife for the password on his account so he can FINALLY pay for his transaction.  Just today got behind someone that couldn't figure the mobile payment.   Three employees and a manager, finally he left with his stuff.  UGH>

 

What about the Mom and Pop shop owners who shop at Makro using their takings to pay a 20000B bill in 20b notes?

On 12/7/2024 at 10:51 PM, Chris Daley said:

Bartering has been a part of civilization since the dawn of time.  The idea of a cashless society could be one of the greatest threats to freedom in human history.

 

-  the government can see your financial records

 

-  in 2083 the world will merge into a one government system.  a global currency is part of this plan.

 

-  your money will be frozen or reduced at will by the ruling party.  bought a pizza instead of that aspirin?  you'll pay for that.

 

-  got lucky on the horses?  no you didn't.

 

-  popped around to Sue's house at number 32?  explain why the visit cost 1,000 bhat.

 

-  seizing money from citizens first and asking questions later via civil forfeiture.  by seizing a citizen’s or a firm’s money, the victim/defendant has almost no choice but to settle.

 

- imagine a future in which soon, a government staff member could suspect an individual of some misconduct, or perhaps deem that person’s politics or speech unacceptable. it would take just a few keystrokes to order all financial institutions to decline any withdrawal or payment from that individual.

 

How about you?  Do you still use cash or do prefer the cashless society?

Those are some of the worries, to be sure.  And we're already seeing some aspects of this pay out around the world in different ways and in different countries, especially in the totalitarian regimes. 

 

China has a social credit scoring system they seem to be rolling out to control not only access to the banking system, but to other aspects of life, as well. In Canada, look what they did to the truckers they didn't like.  Even in the USA, some banks are beginning to use the banking system as a political control tool.  I'm not sure what's going on in Australia and the UK, but my guess is hasn't been good lately, based on some of what I've read online.

 

The COVID pandemic and the response to it is another example. In the USA, they were developing "Health Passports" or whatever they called them.  Your vaccination status would be entered into the system, along with, presumably, other medical records.  Didn't get your jab? No school for you. No job. No going out to eat. Stay in your house or else!

 

So while cashless banking and payments is convenient, it's just a step or two away from totalitarian control.   

 

Fortunately, Trump won the election in the USA.  Not a good thing for the Globalists and their dreams. Not a good thing for the New World Order.  I'm a little worried by Trump's apparent embrace of cryptocurrencies, but we'll see how that plays out.  He says there will be no Central Bank Digital Currency, and yet he's all on board with the cryptos? 

 

Personally, I don't see the Globalist agenda getting much traction in the near future.  At some point, people will have had enough. That's already happening. Americans want to be Americans. Russians want to be Russians. The French people want to be French, and so on.  Nothing wrong with that.  

 

Anyway, all the fears may be overblown, at least for the near future.  Cash isn't going anywhere.  How would the underground economy operate?  What about all th poor people in the world who have not access whatsoever to banking or digital payment systems?   

 

1 hour ago, LivingNThailand said:

which is seconds compared to the person calling his friend / wife for the password on his account so he can FINALLY pay for his transaction.  Just today got behind someone that couldn't figure the mobile payment.   Three employees and a manager, finally he left with his stuff.  UGH>

 

 

   Are you really honestly sure about that ?

It seems to happen to you frequently and its never once happened to me and it happened to you today again, today of all days when you only mentioned ir yesterday  online .

   What a coincidence that is 

35 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Are you really honestly sure about that ?

It seems to happen to you frequently and its never once happened to me and it happened to you today again, today of all days when you only mentioned ir yesterday  online .

   What a coincidence that is 

It happens all the time to me.  I'm at the convenience store just trying to pick up a few things and the person in front of me at the register spends five minutes trying to open their banking app. Or they can't make it work with the card reader at the register.  Or, they want to argue with the cashier about why it should work but it doesn't.  Usually, it's tourists and the communication with Thai cashiers isn't so good to begin with. 

1 hour ago, youreavinalaff said:

What about the Mom and Pop shop owners who shop at Makro using their takings to pay a 20000B bill in 20b notes?

 

I would be impressed to see a stack of 1000 20b notes to be honest.

3 minutes ago, jas007 said:

It happens all the time to me.  I'm at the convenience store just trying to pick up a few things and the person in front of me at the register spends five minutes trying to open their banking app. Of they can't make it work with the card reader at the register.  Or, they want to argue with the cashier about why it should work but it doesn't.  Usually, it's tourists and the communication with Thai cashiers isn't so good to begin with. 

 

Yep every damn time I go to hardware house.... <deleted>s me.

Thus huge panic by some about cash-less is amusing...   they seem to dream of this totalitarian dystopian future. 

 

You've all been using cashless for decades - right since 60's and 70's with wide-spread use in the 80-'s when pretty much every family was using a credit card...

Then since the 80's and 90's with debit cards particularly with the onset of Electronic Funds Transfer at Point of Sale (EFTPOS) systems. 

 

So... society has been 'cashless' for a while now...   Did anyone pay for their car, house, or other expensive items in Cash over the past 20-30 years ????.....  

 

 

It seems now a lot of boomers are complaining because they don't like the Thai QR systems and this is more a 'generational complaint' than anything else.

 

I'm a fan of cash, I'm also a fan of convenience, so I like digital payments. I use a credit card for most of our purchases because I get flights from them, but in truth, I object to the devaluation of currently caused by the 3% charges applied by the credit card companies where after 23 cycles (at 3% per transaction) the value of the currency has halved - so arguments from that perspective are valid. 

 

At least the PromptPay systems here do not have charges and are thus inherently 'better' than Visa and MasterCard. 

 

Cash, of course is better still - but its also a lot less convenient for many of us - and then we get into the boomer complaints about someone being slow with a QR code.

 

 

But... if you are someone who is truly as paranoid as the Op - you're going to have to go off the grid completely - because each time you use an ATM there is a record, take your phone with you its traceable, fly anywhere your location is known.

 

OR... perhaps the op should have told everyone to watch 1984 again.

 

Or... how about looking at Crypto and the decentralisation there...    isn't that taking us in the opposite direction towards freedoms ? But, how free do you want to be...     

 

..... Paranoid Jim maybe concerned that the government can find out if he goes for his 'handsy massage'..... should he also take similar that the governments track spending as a measure against terrorism ?...   of course tax comes in to it... 

 

.. a double edged sword and a multifaceted debate which I don't think can come down to something as simple as the 'government want to track us' (as everyday people).

 

 

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, LivingNThailand said:

Three employees and a manager, finally he left with his stuff.  UGH>

 

Plus how much of his, their and your time?

47 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

Thus huge panic by some about cash-less is amusing...   they seem to dream of this totalitarian dystopian future. 

 

You've all been using cashless for decades - right since 60's and 70's with wide-spread use in the 80-'s when pretty much every family was using a credit card...

Then since the 80's and 90's with debit cards particularly with the onset of Electronic Funds Transfer at Point of Sale (EFTPOS) systems. 

 

So... society has been 'cashless' for a while now...   Did anyone pay for their car, house, or other expensive items in Cash over the past 20-30 years ????.....  

 

 

It seems now a lot of boomers are complaining because they don't like the Thai QR systems and this is more a 'generational complaint' than anything else.

 

I'm a fan of cash, I'm also a fan of convenience, so I like digital payments. I use a credit card for most of our purchases because I get flights from them, but in truth, I object to the devaluation of currently caused by the 3% charges applied by the credit card companies where after 23 cycles (at 3% per transaction) the value of the currency has halved - so arguments from that perspective are valid. 

 

At least the PromptPay systems here do not have charges and are thus inherently 'better' than Visa and MasterCard. 

 

Cash, of course is better still - but its also a lot less convenient for many of us - and then we get into the boomer complaints about someone being slow with a QR code.

 

 

But... if you are someone who is truly as paranoid as the Op - you're going to have to go off the grid completely - because each time you use an ATM there is a record, take your phone with you its traceable, fly anywhere your location is known.

 

OR... perhaps the op should have told everyone to watch 1984 again.

 

Or... how about looking at Crypto and the decentralisation there...    isn't that taking us in the opposite direction towards freedoms ? But, how free do you want to be...     

 

..... Paranoid Jim maybe concerned that the government can find out if he goes for his 'handsy massage'..... should he also take similar that the governments track spending as a measure against terrorism ?...   of course tax comes in to it... 

 

.. a double edged sword and a multifaceted debate which I don't think can come down to something as simple as the 'government want to track us' (as everyday people).

 

 

 

 

 

 

You're right, but you also miss the point.  It's not only about "cashless."  We use that all the time. What it's about is that technology has now advanced to the point where data from different sources can be connected, analyzed, and utilized instantly.  They can now condense you and your entire life into a profile.  You're no longer a person.  You're a person with a rating. You're a person they can control. You're a person that can be included or excluded from society instantly.  That's the danger.  

3 hours ago, Ralf001 said:

 

I would be impressed to see a stack of 1000 20b notes to be honest.

It's not unusual, maybe not all 20b notes but certainly huge bundles of notes and bags of coins.

2 hours ago, jas007 said:

You're right, but you also miss the point.  It's not only about "cashless."  We use that all the time. What it's about is that technology has now advanced to the point where data from different sources can be connected, analyzed, and utilized instantly.  They can now condense you and your entire life into a profile.  You're no longer a person.  You're a person with a rating. You're a person they can control. You're a person that can be included or excluded from society instantly.  That's the danger.  

 

It’s remarkable how much can be inferred just from our internet activity, ATM use, travel patterns etc... 

 

From a broader perspective, there are alternative solutions like cryptocurrencies and crypto-cards, though these introduce an entirely separate debate - one centred on the degree to which governments might permit such decentralised systems (a separate discussion for another time).

 

As the saying goes, when one door closes, another opens. Yet, transitions like these inevitably bring about a great deal of uncertainty - a challenge in itself, more so for some older folk perhaps (and once again a separate discussion for another time).

 

Change, by its nature, is rarely welcomed. I fully understand the unease it brings, particularly when it raises legitimate concerns about privacy and surveillance. Your point about tracking is valid - it's a pressing issue, though, in many respects, facial recognition technology has already set a precedent for how little control we truly have in the near future. Payment systems, then, are but a small piece of this much larger issue.

 

 

Thus, with that said, I’ve observed a significant amount of opposition to cashless payment systems in various discussions on this forum. Many of the arguments are poorly reasoned, often bordering on paranoid delusion. At times, they appear to mask deeper frustrations, perhaps resentment towards younger generations who are quick to embrace technologies like mobile payments, or even a broader distaste for the younger demographic itself.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

7 hours ago, jas007 said:

It happens all the time to me.  I'm at the convenience store just trying to pick up a few things and the person in front of me at the register spends five minutes trying to open their banking app. Or they can't make it work with the card reader at the register.  Or, they want to argue with the cashier about why it should work but it doesn't.  Usually, it's tourists and the communication with Thai cashiers isn't so good to begin with. 

Same experience here

6 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

 Did anyone pay for their car, house, or other expensive items in Cash over the past 20-30 years

Outside of the US, this was - and in many places still is - absolutely normal. 

 

And there is a huge difference between regulated banks or credit cards  and freewheeling fintech:

https://news.bloomberglaw.com/tax-insights-and-commentary/matt-levines-money-stuff-synapse-still-cant-find-its-money

"Oh, we have misplaced your money,  and unfortunately we can't find it in our electronic systems" - but it was only people's life savings, a paltry 300,000$ or so.

 

But the real problem is what OP describes (not very well).

Cashless society means, every single financial transaction (paying Lek, real name - which you didn't even know - Panida Nomsong d.o.b. 31.7.1993 - she told you she is 23 - from Udon;  taking the BTS from where to where, buying which kind of beer or cannabis, buying which type of electronic padlock for your door, including serial number and emergency password) is not just traceable,  it is traced and analyzed in real time. And stored forever. 

 

And it is controllable:

 

sorry,  we will not sell you this internet promotion - and because we are a private company,  we don't tell you why (happened to 2 good friends who wanted the same promotion as me - the "private company" is owned by the government);

 

the subscription of your NYT for 10$ just went up to 20$, no, make that 50$, oh no, we will not let you read it at all, because of the "information" about you we got from the net;

 

your plane ticket is more expensive if booked by iphone;

 

your stored value card (eg in Thailand's 10000B scheme,  in Germany and Australia), can only be used in overpriced shops that paid tea-money

 

bank accounts blocked as in Canada (in my home country this happens too, and it means you lose your rental home)

....

 

these are just real-life examples from Western democracies that give you a taste of our Chinese/Singaporean future.

 

2 hours ago, Lorry said:

Outside of the US, this was - and in many places still is - absolutely normal. 

 

And there is a huge difference between regulated banks or credit cards  and freewheeling fintech:

https://news.bloomberglaw.com/tax-insights-and-commentary/matt-levines-money-stuff-synapse-still-cant-find-its-money

"Oh, we have misplaced your money,  and unfortunately we can't find it in our electronic systems" - but it was only people's life savings, a paltry 300,000$ or so.

 

But the real problem is what OP describes (not very well).

Cashless society means, every single financial transaction (paying Lek, real name - which you didn't even know - Panida Nomsong d.o.b. 31.7.1993 - she told you she is 23 - from Udon;  taking the BTS from where to where, buying which kind of beer or cannabis, buying which type of electronic padlock for your door, including serial number and emergency password) is not just traceable,  it is traced and analyzed in real time. And stored forever. 

 

And it is controllable:

 

sorry,  we will not sell you this internet promotion - and because we are a private company,  we don't tell you why (happened to 2 good friends who wanted the same promotion as me - the "private company" is owned by the government);

 

the subscription of your NYT for 10$ just went up to 20$, no, make that 50$, oh no, we will not let you read it at all, because of the "information" about you we got from the net;

 

your plane ticket is more expensive if booked by iphone;

 

your stored value card (eg in Thailand's 10000B scheme,  in Germany and Australia), can only be used in overpriced shops that paid tea-money

 

bank accounts blocked as in Canada (in my home country this happens too, and it means you lose your rental home)

....

 

these are just real-life examples from Western democracies that give you a taste of our Chinese/Singaporean future.

 

 

Is Lek single ?

Got any pics.

On 12/8/2024 at 12:56 AM, scoutman360 said:

I think people joke about it because they don't understand the impact it puts on our privacy and freedoms. In China it is almost always cashless now. They always pay with Wechat. If the world gets to that point, then you will no longer have control over your money. It will always be monitored and your spending will be monitored and analyzed and judged by a central government. Say you don't care? You will care when they block your bank account for some stupid reason. 

 

Totally agree. It's amazing what freedoms and privacy people will willingly hand over for a little convenience. 

 

It's like a twist on Benjamin Franklin's observation that those who give up liberty for temporary safety deserve neither. The same applies here. 

 

Jello Biafra's (real name Eric Boucher) satirical observation was bang on the money (excuse the pun) with the name of his bands 1987 album "Give me convenience or give me death". 

 

12 hours ago, Lorry said:

19 hours ago, jas007 said:

It happens all the time to me.  I'm at the convenience store just trying to pick up a few things and the person in front of me at the register spends five minutes trying to open their banking app. Or they can't make it work with the card reader at the register.  Or, they want to argue with the cashier about why it should work but it doesn't.  Usually, it's tourists and the communication with Thai cashiers isn't so good to begin with. 

Same experience here

 

I get held up by people who haven't got round to taking their money out of their wallet then have to wait for them to receive their change, the messing about can take minutes.

 

I also get help up by people who haven't got round to taking out their phone and turning on their app ready do scan, the fumbling takes minutes.

 

Then I often witness the person in front paying quickly with the right change, getting a receipt and leaving, payment made instantly.

 

I also mostly witness the person in front with their App ready to scan, payment made in seconds.

 

In Europe I witness people tapping a button on their phone and scanning in seconds (apple & google pay)

 

I also witness people just tapping a card which is almost instant.

 

------------

 

@ both Lorry and Jas007 - you have isolated a single facet of society, the slow people, who slow you down and you have used them as a generalised argument to dislike a whole system - when in reality the slow person with the phone, is the same person who is slow to get their out wallet, its the same time of person who is slow to get on an escalator, is slow to get in and out of an elevator, never has their keys ready when they get to their house and instead fumbles for minutes etc etc... 

 

In summary - you are drawing on flawed anecdote to make a generalisation that itself is also flawed.

 

 

 

 

Going completely cashless is supremely dumb for so many reasons, let's have a look at some:

1. The first and most obvious reason for not doing it is that we, the public, are handing far too much power over to banks, corporations, and governments... and we all know what a bunch of bankers they all are. I'm uncomfortable with the bank and government knowing every tiny little thing I spend money on... might lead to social scoring (even secretive) like in China where if you spend too much, in their eyes, on say beer or something, you lose points and become less socially viable. That is a dangerous and dystopian road.

2. It is good that there are different ways to pay for things as some are more appropriate for some things than for others. It's called choice, and anything that takes away choice from you is taking away your freedom... the more choice you have, the freer you are.

3. There needs to be a currency that can be used in troubled times, barring complete and utter collapse of society and it's instituations... cash is it. What will you do if the internet goes out? How about no electricity?

4. Satellites can go down and malfunction, bad actors can cut internet cables under the sea, unleach EMP weapons etc. etc. How about if there is a huge solar storm or coronal mass ejection that hits the earth just right.... only a matter of time, remember the Carrington Event? When that happened we were lucky we were only using telegraph, as it would be very distructive if it happened again. People talk about "hardening the grid" but an estimate of how much it would cost to just harden the US grid would be $25 billion or more, plus take a massive amount of time... not sure if there is the political will for that.

5. If there is only one way to pay, then if it goes down, society will implode much faster than if people have access to cash as a stopgap until things normalize.

6. People say it will cut down on criminality, but in all honesty, the more we digitize everything, the more fraud, hacking, and online scamming is happening... so the criminality would simply shift online, not go away.

7. The removal of the right to privacy, which some might argue has already vanished... would be undoubably gone, period, but I kind of covered that a little in number 1.

I still use cash as much as possible as I dislike, and don't trust, the authorities and banks not to use the information for some end, or just sell it whilst they build up a financial profile of everyone. Look what an information treasure trove the cash handout apps are or the Covid app was... can find out almost anything out about everyone. Bet the intellignece agencies were have a party when you combine those with all the data people freely share about themselves on social media too... facepalm.

Think I'm paranoid? Think of all the corporate data centers that are being set up everywhere, and all the intelligence agencies around love data and info because, well, you know the old phrase "Knowledge is power". I bet most people would be astonished if they knew how many corporate and government agencies knew so much about their lives in tiny details.

16 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

I get held up by people who haven't got round to taking their money out of their wallet then have to wait for them to receive their change, the messing about can take minutes.

 

I also get help up by people who haven't got round to taking out their phone and turning on their app ready do scan, the fumbling takes minutes.

 

Then I often witness the person in front paying quickly with the right change, getting a receipt and leaving, payment made instantly.

 

I also mostly witness the person in front with their App ready to scan, payment made in seconds.

 

In Europe I witness people tapping a button on their phone and scanning in seconds (apple & google pay)

 

I also witness people just tapping a card which is almost instant.

 

------------

 

@ both Lorry and Jas007 - you have isolated a single facet of society, the slow people, who slow you down and you have used them as a generalised argument to dislike a whole system - when in reality the slow person with the phone, is the same person who is slow to get their out wallet, its the same time of person who is slow to get on an escalator, is slow to get in and out of an elevator, never has their keys ready when they get to their house and instead fumbles for minutes etc etc... 

 

In summary - you are drawing on flawed anecdote to make a generalisation that itself is also flawed.

 

 

 

 

I wasn't trying to condemn a "flawed" system.  I was simply responding to a post someone made about typical delays at the register.  I could tell similar stories about people who get in line at the grocery store, and then finally get out their checkbook to write a check for the total. By the time some of those people fish around in their purse for their checkbook, write the check, annotate the check in the check register, and subtract the total from their supposed balance, they've wasted everyone's time.  And that's the case if we assume the check wasn't written on a bank in Outer Mongolia, in which case the store manager will quickly be involved in a shouting match with the customer, all while there are 10 people in the line waiting to buy whatever. 

 

Or the people with multiple coupons, some of which have probably expired.  And then there's an argument about those. 

 

So no, I don't have a problem with a cashless banking system.  But I also think there's a place for cash and I think there's room for improvement.  

 

As for using Apple Pay to pay?  I even had a problem with that one day.  We finally got it to work.  I think that day there was some sort of a worldwide outage in the Apple Pay system. 

42 minutes ago, jas007 said:

I wasn't trying to condemn a "flawed" system.  I was simply responding to a post someone made about typical delays at the register.  I could tell similar stories about people who get in line at the grocery store, and then finally get out their checkbook to write a check for the total. By the time some of those people fish around in their purse for their checkbook, write the check, annotate the check in the check register, and subtract the total from their supposed balance, they've wasted everyone's time.  And that's the case if we assume the check wasn't written on a bank in Outer Mongolia, in which case the store manager will quickly be involved in a shouting match with the customer, all while there are 10 people in the line waiting to buy whatever. 

 

Or the people with multiple coupons, some of which have probably expired.  And then there's an argument about those. 

 

So no, I don't have a problem with a cashless banking system.  But I also think there's a place for cash and I think there's room for improvement.  

 

As for using Apple Pay to pay?  I even had a problem with that one day.  We finally got it to work.  I think that day there was some sort of a worldwide outage in the Apple Pay system. 

 

Agree with that... 

 

I'm not anti-cash or particularly pro-digital.... I find both have their flaws and advantages.

 

But, I am 'anti-stupid-arguments' - where people shoehorn in a ridiculous argument to suit their bias and agenda.

 

I believe it is important that we always have cash as an option.

 

Even though I am 99% non-cash payments purely for the sake of convenience, I still carry cash around with me - just incase I face a situation where the cashless system is not working.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Sir Dude said:

Going completely cashless is supremely dumb for so many reasons, let's have a look at some:

1. The first and most obvious reason for not doing it is that we, the public, are handing far too much power over to banks, corporations, and governments... and we all know what a bunch of bankers they all are. I'm uncomfortable with the bank and government knowing every tiny little thing I spend money on... might lead to social scoring (even secretive) like in China where if you spend too much, in their eyes, on say beer or something, you lose points and become less socially viable. That is a dangerous and dystopian road.

Kind of agree - but an extremely paranoid outlook.

 

2. It is good that there are different ways to pay for things as some are more appropriate for some things than for others. It's called choice, and anything that takes away choice from you is taking away your freedom... the more choice you have, the freer you are.

100% agree - marinating choice and as many options as possible is important.

 

3. There needs to be a currency that can be used in troubled times, barring complete and utter collapse of society and it's instituations... cash is it. What will you do if the internet goes out? How about no electricity?

If society collapses, cash will lose value very quickly - and how will you get it (unless you are holding $100,000's in a bunker, in which cases its already massively depreciated.

No electricity - you're not getting it out of an ATM then !

 

4. Satellites can go down and malfunction, bad actors can cut internet cables under the sea, unleach EMP weapons etc. etc. How about if there is a huge solar storm or coronal mass ejection that hits the earth just right.... only a matter of time, remember the Carrington Event? When that happened we were lucky we were only using telegraph, as it would be very distructive if it happened again. People talk about "hardening the grid" but an estimate of how much it would cost to just harden the US grid would be $25 billion or more, plus take a massive amount of time... not sure if there is the political will for that.

Societal collapse - your cash is worthless anyway - are you holding gold bars in that case ?

 

5. If there is only one way to pay, then if it goes down, society will implode much faster than if people have access to cash as a stopgap until things normalize.

Agreed.

 

6. People say it will cut down on criminality, but in all honesty, the more we digitize everything, the more fraud, hacking, and online scamming is happening... so the criminality would simply shift online, not go away.

Crytpo has already countered that - so the argument is moot.

 

7. The removal of the right to privacy, which some might argue has already vanished... would be undoubably gone, period, but I kind of covered that a little in number 1.

I still use cash as much as possible as I dislike, and don't trust, the authorities and banks not to use the information for some end, or just sell it whilst they build up a financial profile of everyone. Look what an information treasure trove the cash handout apps are or the Covid app was... can find out almost anything out about everyone. Bet the intellignece agencies were have a party when you combine those with all the data people freely share about themselves on social media too... facepalm.

Think I'm paranoid? Think of all the corporate data centers that are being set up everywhere, and all the intelligence agencies around love data and info because, well, you know the old phrase "Knowledge is power". I bet most people would be astonished if they knew how many corporate and government agencies knew so much about their lives in tiny details.

The ship has sailed - everyone is already using every little piece of information and it will get worse.

Decentralisation is your solution, but with the levels of paranoia in your comments, it could be argued that governments ban crypto -  there are a lot of changes coming I think.

 

 

On 12/9/2024 at 9:53 AM, save the frogs said:

no one cares what you're doing, unless it's illegal.

more surveillance = safer world for everyone

 

You mean, like in China where CCP sees all, hears all, tells you what to do and how to behave. Thanks, but no thanks.