In an enlightening conversation, Elaine Pagels, a distinguished professor of religion at Princeton University, engages with Nicholas Kristof about her upcoming book, *Miracles and Wonder*, which tackles the virgin birth of Jesus and its historical implications. Known for her expertise on early Christianity, Pagels offers a perspective that blends faith and academic inquiry, urging readers to reflect critically on traditional narratives while also appreciating their spiritual significance.

 

Kristof, acknowledging the sensitivity of the topic for devout believers, begins the conversation by emphasizing the importance of balancing historical research with respect for those who hold deep faith. Pagels responds with a thoughtful approach, explaining her love for the Gospel stories. “The skies opened up when I heard them,” she recalls, speaking of the profound emotional and spiritual impact these stories have. However, she also stresses that while these stories are deeply meaningful, they should be understood not merely as historical accounts but also as metaphors that convey deeper truths about human experience and divine mystery.

 

Pagels then turns to the topic of the virgin birth. Of the four Gospels, only two — Matthew and Luke — mention it, while Mark and John make no reference to it. Pagels points out that the Gospel of Mark, the earliest of the four, does not suggest a virgin birth. Instead, Mark refers to Jesus as “the son of Mary,” a striking anomaly in a patriarchal society where a child’s identity was typically linked to the father. This raises the question of whether Jesus was seen as fatherless by his community, a point that both Matthew and Luke address by introducing their own versions of the nativity story, with each adding a father figure in Joseph. These revisions, Pagels suggests, may have been an attempt to avoid the embarrassment of a questionable paternity.

 

The most provocative element of Pagels' book is her discussion of ancient rumors about Jesus being the son of a Roman soldier named Panthera. While these accounts come from early detractors of Jesus, the name “Panthera” may refer to a real individual, a Roman soldier stationed in Palestine during the first century. Pagels acknowledges the uncertainty of this claim but argues that there is enough circumstantial evidence to warrant consideration. She highlights a grave discovered in 1859 that belonged to a soldier named Tiberius Panthera, which adds some credence to these long-standing rumors.

 

Pagels also addresses the possibility that Mary may have been a victim of rape. She notes the brutal Roman occupation of Galilee during the time of Jesus' birth, where soldiers frequently committed acts of violence and sexual assault against the local population. Pagels suggests that if Panthera was indeed involved in Jesus’ conception, it may have been a case of rape, reflecting the harsh realities of Roman rule at the time.

 

Despite these historical investigations, Pagels does not dismiss the possibility of miracles but invites readers to consider how they are interpreted. She compares the concept of miracles to personal experiences that some might attribute to divine intervention, like a miraculous recovery from illness, while others might simply view them as strokes of luck. “Calling it a miracle interprets an event that others might see differently,” she explains.

 

In the latter part of the conversation, Pagels touches on the broader role of Christianity in modern society. While she may not align with all aspects of conservative Christianity, she acknowledges the profound humanitarian work done by faith-based organizations. Pagels emphasizes the importance of recognizing and celebrating the positive impact of Christian faith, especially in charitable efforts around the world.

 

Reflecting on her own faith journey, Pagels speaks of her transition from an evangelical Christian to a scholar who questions the literal truth of certain biblical stories. Yet, despite her intellectual skepticism, she continues to find deep spiritual meaning in the Christian tradition. The experience of encountering Christianity, she says, remains transformative. “The Christian message, as I experienced it, was transformational. It encouraged me to treat other people well and opened up a world of imagination and wonder,” she shares.

 

In conclusion, Pagels calls for a respectful and open dialogue between faith and reason, urging both believers and skeptics to appreciate the rich tapestry of Christian tradition. For her, the virgin birth, like other miracles in the Gospels, can be seen as a story of profound spiritual significance, regardless of its historical accuracy. "Believe that a further shore / is reachable from here. / Believe in miracles,” she quotes, echoing the words of poet Seamus Heaney and encouraging us to embrace the mystery and wonder that faith can offer.

 

Based on a report by NYT 2024-12-23

 

 

 

10 hours ago, Social Media said:

 

In an enlightening conversation, Elaine Pagels, a distinguished professor of religion at Princeton University, engages with Nicholas Kristof about her upcoming book, *Miracles and Wonder*, which tackles the virgin birth of Jesus and its historical implications. Known for her expertise on early Christianity, Pagels offers a perspective that blends faith and academic inquiry, urging readers to reflect critically on traditional narratives while also appreciating their spiritual significance.

 

Kristof, acknowledging the sensitivity of the topic for devout believers, begins the conversation by emphasizing the importance of balancing historical research with respect for those who hold deep faith. Pagels responds with a thoughtful approach, explaining her love for the Gospel stories. “The skies opened up when I heard them,” she recalls, speaking of the profound emotional and spiritual impact these stories have. However, she also stresses that while these stories are deeply meaningful, they should be understood not merely as historical accounts but also as metaphors that convey deeper truths about human experience and divine mystery.

 

Pagels then turns to the topic of the virgin birth. Of the four Gospels, only two — Matthew and Luke — mention it, while Mark and John make no reference to it. Pagels points out that the Gospel of Mark, the earliest of the four, does not suggest a virgin birth. Instead, Mark refers to Jesus as “the son of Mary,” a striking anomaly in a patriarchal society where a child’s identity was typically linked to the father. This raises the question of whether Jesus was seen as fatherless by his community, a point that both Matthew and Luke address by introducing their own versions of the nativity story, with each adding a father figure in Joseph. These revisions, Pagels suggests, may have been an attempt to avoid the embarrassment of a questionable paternity.

 

The most provocative element of Pagels' book is her discussion of ancient rumors about Jesus being the son of a Roman soldier named Panthera. While these accounts come from early detractors of Jesus, the name “Panthera” may refer to a real individual, a Roman soldier stationed in Palestine during the first century. Pagels acknowledges the uncertainty of this claim but argues that there is enough circumstantial evidence to warrant consideration. She highlights a grave discovered in 1859 that belonged to a soldier named Tiberius Panthera, which adds some credence to these long-standing rumors.

 

Pagels also addresses the possibility that Mary may have been a victim of rape. She notes the brutal Roman occupation of Galilee during the time of Jesus' birth, where soldiers frequently committed acts of violence and sexual assault against the local population. Pagels suggests that if Panthera was indeed involved in Jesus’ conception, it may have been a case of rape, reflecting the harsh realities of Roman rule at the time.

 

Despite these historical investigations, Pagels does not dismiss the possibility of miracles but invites readers to consider how they are interpreted. She compares the concept of miracles to personal experiences that some might attribute to divine intervention, like a miraculous recovery from illness, while others might simply view them as strokes of luck. “Calling it a miracle interprets an event that others might see differently,” she explains.

 

In the latter part of the conversation, Pagels touches on the broader role of Christianity in modern society. While she may not align with all aspects of conservative Christianity, she acknowledges the profound humanitarian work done by faith-based organizations. Pagels emphasizes the importance of recognizing and celebrating the positive impact of Christian faith, especially in charitable efforts around the world.

 

Reflecting on her own faith journey, Pagels speaks of her transition from an evangelical Christian to a scholar who questions the literal truth of certain biblical stories. Yet, despite her intellectual skepticism, she continues to find deep spiritual meaning in the Christian tradition. The experience of encountering Christianity, she says, remains transformative. “The Christian message, as I experienced it, was transformational. It encouraged me to treat other people well and opened up a world of imagination and wonder,” she shares.

 

In conclusion, Pagels calls for a respectful and open dialogue between faith and reason, urging both believers and skeptics to appreciate the rich tapestry of Christian tradition. For her, the virgin birth, like other miracles in the Gospels, can be seen as a story of profound spiritual significance, regardless of its historical accuracy. "Believe that a further shore / is reachable from here. / Believe in miracles,” she quotes, echoing the words of poet Seamus Heaney and encouraging us to embrace the mystery and wonder that faith can offer.

 

Based on a report by NYT 2024-12-23

 

 

 

I wonder how the Vatican is handling this?

Pages should explore more possibilities like:

• Mary was a man in a womans body
• Mary was a woman in a mans body
• Mary stole the baby
• Josef gave birth to it but wanted to hide it, so he gave it to Mary

 

That will keep her busy for some more years........

 

Just for the record, yes a woman can get pregnant without penetration as long as the semen is placed inside her vagina. 

 

 

This is much nearer the mark..........

 

 

12 hours ago, Social Media said:

Kristof, acknowledging the sensitivity of the topic for devout believers, begins the conversation by emphasizing the importance of balancing historical research with respect for those who hold deep faith.

....balancing historical research......you meaning lying or ignoring possibly factual stuff as it might upset someone.....pathetic.

Insensitive and totally out of order post removed

I'm sure she was a nice lady 

3 hours ago, Hawaiian said:

n conclusion, Pagels calls for a respectful and open dialogue between faith and reason, urging both believers and skeptics to appreciate the rich tapestry of Christian tradition.

Like The Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, Henry VIII, the Irish problem etc etc.

12 hours ago, Will B Good said:

....balancing historical research......you meaning lying or ignoring possibly factual stuff as it might upset someone.....pathetic.

 

It's called respect.

Luckily the discussion wasn't aimed at one of the other major religions, otherwise she would now be on a hit list. 

I once read that in the Aramaic language, in which some of the bible was written (or perhaps simply the language spoken by many in biblical times), the word "virgin" simply meant a woman who had never previously had a baby.

 

Aside from that, there are pre-biblical myths about virgin births. It was certainly not exclusively Jesus.

 

 

15 minutes ago, Hervey Bay said:

I once read that in the Aramaic language, in which some of the bible was written (or perhaps simply the language spoken by many in biblical times), the word "virgin" simply meant a woman who had never previously had a baby.

 

Aside from that, there are pre-biblical myths about virgin births. It was certainly not exclusively Jesus.

 

 

Interesting.

The various stories which are central to religious belief are a distraction from the question to which I doubt humanity will ever know the answer, namely,  how, why and when the multiverse was created.

On 12/23/2024 at 3:03 AM, Social Media said:

rumors about Jesus being the son of a Roman soldier named Panthera.  the name “Panthera” may refer to a real individual, a Roman soldier stationed in Palestine during the first century. She highlights a grave discovered in 1859 that belonged to a soldier named Tiberius Panthera, which adds some credence to these long-standing rumors.

I can picture the scenario:

"Hey girl, my name is Panthera."

"What a cool name! Is that your tent...?"

17 hours ago, CHdiver said:

Mary was a woman in a mans body

🤔

On 12/23/2024 at 3:03 AM, Social Media said:

the virgin birth, like other miracles in the Gospels, can be seen as a story of profound spiritual significance, regardless of its historical accuracy.

This is nearer the mark; historical accuracy is something very difficult to argue for or against, for me all religions were a way of controlling the people & teaching people how to behave. Interpretation of these teachings on the other hand is another question. 

17 hours ago, CHdiver said:

Just for the record, yes a woman can get pregnant without penetration as long as the semen is placed inside her vagina.

Indeed, and 21st century technology isn’t required. That’s why I’ve always been confused when some atheists talk about ‘the impossibility of the virgin birth’ - it seems to me to be the single miracle in the bible that is plausible. Maybe Mythbusters should have done an episode about it.

Virgin birth is a common story Christians found as a great tool, since people already had been told about other gods and profets who was born by virgins. Not that complicated when Christianity did some good branding and marketing for their belief, also with treaths and rewards if they didnt or did what they should do for everyones best interest. 

 

Simple but complicated

4 hours ago, rattlesnake said:

 

It's called respect.

More like insanity, why, in this day and age, is a virgin birth even considered as a possibility?

8 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

More like insanity, why, in this day and age, is a virgin birth even considered as a possibility?

Just for the record, yes a woman can get pregnant without penetration as long as the semen is placed inside her vagina.

4 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

Just for the record, yes a woman can get pregnant without penetration as long as the semen is placed inside her vagina.

Who puts it there, the holy ghost?

joseph was shooting blanks, or the neighbor , postman, milkman, had a go while he was out working...

 

there are ZERO virgin births in any animal

 

religion is to control weak minded people and hey look, people still think a man in the sky is living there and created everything, so who created him ?  mhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

 

adam and eve had 2 children.  one brother killed the other for ???

 

where did the rest of humanity come from?  incest ?

 

10 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

Who puts it there, the holy ghost?

Normally someone with a dr degree

Just now, john donson said:

 

 

there are ZERO virgin births in any animal

 

 

 

You say what? 

https://www.livescience.com/animals/animals-that-have-virgin-births

On 12/23/2024 at 3:03 AM, Social Media said:

 

In an enlightening conversation, Elaine Pagels, a distinguished professor of religion at Princeton University, engages with Nicholas Kristof about her upcoming book, *Miracles and Wonder*, which tackles the virgin birth of Jesus and its historical implications. Known for her expertise on early Christianity, Pagels offers a perspective that blends faith and academic inquiry, urging readers to reflect critically on traditional narratives while also appreciating their spiritual significance.

 

Kristof, acknowledging the sensitivity of the topic for devout believers, begins the conversation by emphasizing the importance of balancing historical research with respect for those who hold deep faith. Pagels responds with a thoughtful approach, explaining her love for the Gospel stories. “The skies opened up when I heard them,” she recalls, speaking of the profound emotional and spiritual impact these stories have. However, she also stresses that while these stories are deeply meaningful, they should be understood not merely as historical accounts but also as metaphors that convey deeper truths about human experience and divine mystery.

 

Pagels then turns to the topic of the virgin birth. Of the four Gospels, only two — Matthew and Luke — mention it, while Mark and John make no reference to it. Pagels points out that the Gospel of Mark, the earliest of the four, does not suggest a virgin birth. Instead, Mark refers to Jesus as “the son of Mary,” a striking anomaly in a patriarchal society where a child’s identity was typically linked to the father. This raises the question of whether Jesus was seen as fatherless by his community, a point that both Matthew and Luke address by introducing their own versions of the nativity story, with each adding a father figure in Joseph. These revisions, Pagels suggests, may have been an attempt to avoid the embarrassment of a questionable paternity.

 

The most provocative element of Pagels' book is her discussion of ancient rumors about Jesus being the son of a Roman soldier named Panthera. While these accounts come from early detractors of Jesus, the name “Panthera” may refer to a real individual, a Roman soldier stationed in Palestine during the first century. Pagels acknowledges the uncertainty of this claim but argues that there is enough circumstantial evidence to warrant consideration. She highlights a grave discovered in 1859 that belonged to a soldier named Tiberius Panthera, which adds some credence to these long-standing rumors.

 

Pagels also addresses the possibility that Mary may have been a victim of rape. She notes the brutal Roman occupation of Galilee during the time of Jesus' birth, where soldiers frequently committed acts of violence and sexual assault against the local population. Pagels suggests that if Panthera was indeed involved in Jesus’ conception, it may have been a case of rape, reflecting the harsh realities of Roman rule at the time.

 

Despite these historical investigations, Pagels does not dismiss the possibility of miracles but invites readers to consider how they are interpreted. She compares the concept of miracles to personal experiences that some might attribute to divine intervention, like a miraculous recovery from illness, while others might simply view them as strokes of luck. “Calling it a miracle interprets an event that others might see differently,” she explains.

 

In the latter part of the conversation, Pagels touches on the broader role of Christianity in modern society. While she may not align with all aspects of conservative Christianity, she acknowledges the profound humanitarian work done by faith-based organizations. Pagels emphasizes the importance of recognizing and celebrating the positive impact of Christian faith, especially in charitable efforts around the world.

 

Reflecting on her own faith journey, Pagels speaks of her transition from an evangelical Christian to a scholar who questions the literal truth of certain biblical stories. Yet, despite her intellectual skepticism, she continues to find deep spiritual meaning in the Christian tradition. The experience of encountering Christianity, she says, remains transformative. “The Christian message, as I experienced it, was transformational. It encouraged me to treat other people well and opened up a world of imagination and wonder,” she shares.

 

In conclusion, Pagels calls for a respectful and open dialogue between faith and reason, urging both believers and skeptics to appreciate the rich tapestry of Christian tradition. For her, the virgin birth, like other miracles in the Gospels, can be seen as a story of profound spiritual significance, regardless of its historical accuracy. "Believe that a further shore / is reachable from here. / Believe in miracles,” she quotes, echoing the words of poet Seamus Heaney and encouraging us to embrace the mystery and wonder that faith can offer.

 

Based on a report by NYT 2024-12-23

 

 

 

Let me guess Mary was a trannny that got raped and had a baby that was gay and of the negro persusaion and mis understood.

 

Why do these loons come out and WHy is AN giving them space on here

1 hour ago, Geoffggi said:

This is nearer the mark; historical accuracy is something very difficult to argue for or against, for me all religions were a way of controlling the people & teaching people how to behave. Interpretation of these teachings on the other hand is another question. 

You mean like the Hindu caste system?

Denying the virgin birth is like denying the existence of the  tooth fairy and Santa.

7 hours ago, rattlesnake said:

 

It's called respect.

 

Utter cope out....it is not respect....it is weakness of the worst kind.

If the virgin birth means placing sperm but no penetration, it's not much of a miracle, is it?

3 hours ago, KannikaP said:

Just for the record, yes a woman can get pregnant without penetration as long as the semen is placed inside her vagina.

She obviously got pregnant from sitting on a lavatory seat.

There were no such things as lavatories then. Oh? Well she must have got it in the traditional way then.