Thai tax tangle: Expats warned of new rules on overseas income

[Card]

Just now, khunjeff said:

 

The piratical DCC (Dynamic Currency Conversion) offered at some ATMs and point of sale credit card terminals - which proposes an exchange rate up to 6% worse than the one provided by Visa or MasterCard - lets you choose how you will be billed, not how you want to pay. The merchant will be paid in THB no matter which option you select. 

 

In any case, I have no idea why the speaker added the bit about credit card payments being converted to baht. Any credit card payment in Thailand could theoretically be considered a remittance, though the odds that Thai tax authorities would actually sift through hundreds of millions of card transactions looking for tax evaders seems low to non-existent.

True unless they have pinpointed someone for tax investigation. Then they just put in the name and tax ID number into a database to come up with someone's details. The common reporting standards allows fir that.

[Briggsy]

There seems to be a great deal of confusion about what a Double Taxation Agreement is.

 

It is not a treaty under which you are taxed twice on the same income.

It is usually not a treaty under which this particular income is taxable and that particular income is not. That is covered under the normal tax legislation of that country.

 

It is relief to prevent tax being paid twice.

 

Example :

You are resident in Thailand for tax purposes but all your income is derived in the UK.

 

UK income £38,000, UK tax paid £5086

Thai assessed income (UK derived) £38000, Thai tax due £5100.

 

Under the Thai - UK DTA you would get relief on the £5086 tax paid to the UK government and you would then pay £5100 - £5086 = £14 (equivalent) to the Thai government.

 

That is what Double Taxation Relief is.

 

As ever, these things are complicated by one's own situation but this gives a broad picture.

 

[MartinL]

28 minutes ago, Card said:

The UK DTA is to give credits against thai tax. That may mean your remitted earnings are not taxed but it doesn't mean you don't need yo file a tax return

Yes, I know all that but a TIN is needed to file a tax return and, in so many reports, TRD local offices have refused to issue a TIN, including in my own case just yesterday. The manager of my local tax office was acting in what he clearly believed was the correct manner to my enquiry in denying me a TIN. He certainly didn't appear to be acting out of malice or indifference as he took time to explain his stance. I won't change his belief that his action was correct so I didn't try too much.

 

How can we even get on the first rung of the ladder in an attempt to comply with the law if we're denied the tools to do so?

[atpeace]

These threads have been going on about nothing for years now and never is anything new concluded.  Quite hilarious to follow. 

 

Maybe just go with common sense until what ever happens happens???? If a person brings in prior savings that have been taxed it wont be taxed here.  If a person brings in income that is taxed in another country, it wont be taxed.  That covers 90% of the expats I know 🙂 If you are dodging taxes by living here, then still probably OK but maybe not.  I posted this same post basically a year ago.... 

[Skeptic7]

*KNOCK KNOCK*

"Who's there?" 

"Thai Tax Man" 

 

*KNOCK KNOCK...KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK...KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK*

[ramjet1953]

Until the Thai government posts a law that has been passed in parliament, I will not be disclosing any of my financial transactions.

[anchadian]

If you’ve done your own calculations of what you know so far and are under the threshold, there is no need to obtain a TIN and file a tax return.

 

Again, what we already know to date. It’s as simple as that.

[jesimps]

8 hours ago, Celsius said:

off to get my TIN.

 

brb

Good luck with that. Hope you have more success than me. Let us know the result and which tax office you used please.

[Card]

4 minutes ago, atpeace said:

These threads have been going on about nothing for years now and never is anything new concluded.  Quite hilarious to follow. 

 

Maybe just go with common sense until what ever happens happens???? If a person brings in prior savings that have been taxed it wont be taxed here.  If a person brings in income that is taxed in another country, it wont be taxed.  That covers 90% of the expats I know 🙂 If you are dodging taxes by living here, then still probably OK but maybe not.  I posted this same post basically a year ago.... 

If remitted funds has been taxed already in your home country then it means it us earnings and the tax paid can be used as credits against Thai tax. It's not a get-out fir not filing or paying tax in thailand.

[Ben Zioner]

13 hours ago, snoop1130 said:

Exemptions apply to those in Thailand for less than 180 days in 2024, individuals who haven’t transferred money from abroad, those who only moved income earned before December 31, 2023, and holders of the 10-year Long Term Residence (LTR) Visa. For others, the advice is clear: obtain a tax identification number and file a return by March 2025.

This will be my policy now. Just hope LTR lasts until I die, 4 or 5 years hopefully, as 77/78 would be a nice age to go.

 

I would then be proud of having limited my  IT to 4 or 5 % of my life's income. Which is everyone's duty: keep the basturds honest.

[SportRider]

ATM cards will at some time be included (but not yet implemented AFAIK). 

 

Credit cards not included (and may be too complicated). 

[DUNROAMIN]

What a load of BS. Until the Thai government officially sends me a written notice to my home that I need to apply for a tax file number for my overseas income, I will carry on as normal.

[Badrabbit]

4 minutes ago, DUNROAMIN said:

What a load of BS. Until the Thai government officially sends me a written notice to my home that I need to apply for a tax file number for my overseas income, I will carry on as normal.

I wish I had your attitude, I'm a worrier and all this is getting me down.

[Card]

5 minutes ago, SportRider said:

ATM cards will at some time be included (but not yet implemented AFAIK). 

 

Credit cards not included (and may be too complicated). 

It depends on the source of the funds u use to pay off the credit card. If u use a foreign credit card ti pay for goods or services in thailabd then your credit card company will send records to thailand according to the CRS common reporting standards. There is no way if getting out of it. If you pay the card debt with earnings that are taxable in thailabd then it's the sane as remitting g those funds and the Thai tax authorities will know about it 

[Ben Zioner]

13 hours ago, snoop1130 said:

Revenue Department’s intent to widen the tax base

Since TIT one could be tempted to substitute "tax" with "corruption" in this sentence. Hence honest people's reluctance.

[Kerryd]

26 minutes ago, Badrabbit said:

Where do I go to get help with this which isn't going to cost an arm and a leg, the tax office doesn't seem to care or are not bothered.

Strange - I was replying to this, read a new post and now my response is gone. Isn't it usually saved "by the editor" ?

In any event. Here is the link to the UK/Thailand Tax Treaty (a downloadable .pdf file). 
Scroll down to Article 19, para (2) - (page 27 of the ,pdf).

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a80bddc40f0b623026953eb/uk-thailand-dtc180281_-_in_force.pdf

"(2)
(a) Any pension paid by the Contracting State or a political subdivision or a local authority thereof to any individual in respect of services of a governmental nature rendered to that State or subdivision or local authority thereof shall be taxable only in that State.
(b) However, such pension shall be taxable only in the other contracting State if the recipient is a national of and a resident of that State.

Note: "Contracting State" in this case is the UK and "other Contracting State" is Thailand.

So basically it's saying if you receive a UK GOV'T pension(s), it's only taxable in the UK - unless you are a Thai national and resident in Thailand.

However, if you are receiving a gov't pension and - say a Union pension or money from a Registered Retirement Income Fund (RRIP) - those other pensions/income are taxable.

The tax treaty only applies (this part) to "gov't" pensions.

However, again, if you've had tax deducted from those other pensions/income, it would be claimable as a credit on your Thai tax return (up to the maximum amount you owe - if any).

[Card]

9 minutes ago, DUNROAMIN said:

What a load of BS. Until the Thai government officially sends me a written notice to my home that I need to apply for a tax file number for my overseas income, I will carry on as normal.

Head in the sand is the worst solution to evading tax. The Thai tax authorities can go back 5 years if they want to investigate your tax recird. The onus is on YOU to comply. It's not up to them to inform u individually. You have to do the proving. It's called 'self assessment'.

[SportRider]

3 hours ago, Thingamabob said:

The Pattaya City Expat Club now join a long list of expat groups in Thailand promoting not the best interests of foreigners living  in Thailand, but trying to advance the business of fringe legal tax advisers operating here. Should you feel the need to discuss tax issues best to do so directly with your local TRD office. 

Don't worry, the others will be given their chance to present also. 

[jesimps]

1 hour ago, Badrabbit said:

Ive been to my tax office, they don't speak english(not their fault) asked about paying tax on my 3 small pensions from the UK ( I pay tax on all 3 in the UK) 

Answer, "if you pay tax in your country you won't pay tax here" basically they seemed uninterested.

Same here. Which tax office? Any suggestions, short of planting a horse's head on the desk, on how to prise a TIN from them? Nobody, apart from us neurotic expats, appears to be concerned.

[lordgrinz]

2 minutes ago, jesimps said:

Same here. Which tax office? Any suggestions, short of planting a horse's head on the desk, on how to prise a TIN from them? Nobody, apart from us neurotic expats, appears to be concerned.

 

My wife has been using my Pink ID number as my TIN for years on our joint Thai tax return. So there is that option, if you have one.

[shackleton]

There seems to be more confusion as time moves on 

Who pays tax ect 

I will wait until Immigration or my bank get involved 

[Card]

1 hour ago, Kerryd said:

Thailand expects you to (voluntarily) report all your income, regardless of source or country.

Not entirely true. If all your remitted funds are not taxable, for whatever reason, in thailand then you do not need to file a Thai tax return or even get a TIN. However you need to keep a fill.paoer trail I'm case the Thai tax authorities adk u to prove the source if remitted funds

[yardrunner]

12 hours ago, Briggsy said:

What would be the incentive to file?

 

Let me give you some completely hypothetical examples.

 

1. They refuse to extend your permission to stay unless you provide proof you have filed a tax return.

2. They issue an estimated assessment for a year you did not file.

3. They issue a fine for a year you did not file.

4. The Thai bank freezes your bank account unless you provide proof you have filed a tax return.

 

Currently these all seem very unlikely.

 

So I am back to my original question, what would be the incentive to file a Thai tax return.

! would imagine that 1, is possible 2, is probable 3, is  possible especially if linked to 1 and 4 seems unlikely

[Moonlover]

1 hour ago, Card said:

The proof is on you not them. You will need to prove the transferred cash is not taxable. They don't need to prove anything.

I've no issues with that. For pensioners, which I'm sure would constitute the main the main group that is quite easy to do.

[nickmondo]

absolute rubbish.

take no notice of foreigners advising on tax issues in Thailand.

it is illegal, and they know nothing.

go to your tax office and ask them to assign you a reference............they will look at you as if you are insane and tell you to go away.

 

[Kerryd]

Just now, Card said:

Not entirely true. If all your remitted funds are not taxable in thailand then you do not need to file a Thai tax return

I would need to see an actual reference to that - from a legitimate source - before I'd believe it.

Everything I've been reading about the subject suggests they want to see all of your income, even if it's covered by a treaty, and the only way to do that is by filing a return.

It is worth pointing out that even a lot of "experts" (as in Thai professionals) don't seem to know what the regulations actually are or will be. I think that was in a Bangkok Post article last year about the taxation of foreigners where they quoted some (Thai) tax lawyers who noted there were a lot of unanswered questions about what was taxable and who was actually required to file.

But if there's a Revenue Department document or notice in the Gazette that says you don't have to file a return if your only remitted funds are from non-taxable pensions - that should be pinned to the top of this discussion.

As that would definitely clear up most of the confusion for most of the people here.

 

[jesimps]

58 minutes ago, Card said:

The UK DTA is to give credits against thai tax. That may mean your remitted earnings are not taxed but it doesn't mean you don't need yo file a tax return

Conflicting information again, which is the problem with this whole business. I've been advised by a lawyer that UK ex-government workers, exempted by the UK/Thailand DTA, are not required to file here.

[Justanotherone]

so funny, buy a condo, just don't live in it for more then 180 days

 

other countries should start to threat thais in home country as expats over here

 

not allowed to own a home, not allowed certain jobs, no healthcare, no residency, no citizenship...

[Card]

2 minutes ago, Kerryd said:

Everything I've been reading about the subject suggests they want to see all of your income, even if it's covered by a treaty, and the only way to do that is by filing a return.

Of course. Being covered by a treaty means any tax paid in your home country has tax credits for thai taxation. It doesn't necessarily mean its not assessable in thailand requiring a filing. If you transfer some funds that are taxable in thailabd along with the untaxabke income then a filing is required. I an referring to transfer of non thai taxable earnings only.

[atpeace]

28 minutes ago, Card said:

If remitted funds has been taxed already in your home country then it means it us earnings and the tax paid can be used as credits against Thai tax. It's not a get-out fir not filing or paying tax in thailand.

Yawn and it is obvious you think you know much more than you actually do on this subject. 

 

Your above posts are hilariously void of anything other than the story you have made-up in your head on how "all" things regarding expat taxes in the future.  How can you not see this? Carry on - these threads are fun.