Nightmare in Kursk: Ukrainian Troops Recount Devastating Retreat

[thaibeachlovers]

  10 hours ago, Cameroni said:

 

The world is more complex than this colour book morality of red and green rights and wrongs. Anyone who looks at the history of the Ukraine and Russia war will realise that kindergarden morality is not useful to analyse it.

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IMO we see the result of people raised on war comics and war games on Playstation. They seem to think the good guys will always win, but seem incapable of realising that in a real war real people die and the good guys lose sometimes.

However, IMO this war is different as I don't think the Ukrainians are the good guys. I think they are just as bad as the Russians and that Zelensky is not a good man at all.

In the future, historians will be puzzled as how this squabble between two annoying neighbours became a conflict involving the west, the East, and billions of $, with thousands of dead, and massive destruction.

[connda]

  10 hours ago, Eric Loh said:

As long as they are resisting, it divert Russian resources from the Eastern front. It is a strategic as well as a symbolic decision to take Kursk and put Ukrainian in a good position to negotiate. Not pointless.  

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It was the dumbest thing on the planet to do.  It shows a complete lack of understanding of the Russia psyche and the affect that the last two European incursions into Russia has on the literal soul of the average Russian person.  The WWII invasion of Russian is still in the generational memory of Russia and Russians, which is why pushing NATO troops closer and closer to the Russian border and then using an expendable Ukraine proxy for NATO to push troops right on top of the Russian border provoked the reaction it received.  That was bad enough.  And then some moron in the UK and US thought it was a good idea to tell the little man in a green sweatshirt to go ahead and actually invade Russia in an oblast where a major battle between the Nazis and the Russian forces played out during The Battle of Kursk. Worse, German generals are on record urging on the invasion of Russia though Kursk. 

I guess today we will see as this is the deadline that President Putin set for the surrender of Ukrainian troops in Kursk.
Yep - invading Russia though Kursk will go down as one of the dumbest moves in the history of modern warfare. Well, accept in Europe where the New Battle Of Kursk will go down as one of NATO's Ukraine's most gallant Victories!  We truly live in Bizarro-World, where right is left, up is down, and defeat is victory.

[Denim]

  10 hours ago, Lacessit said:

There are some seriously sick people on this thread, that think Russia winning is a good thing.

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Yup, they are as happy as Larry with every reverse Ukraine suffers. Not exactly impartial , they actually want Russia to win if only for the pleasure of saying ' told you so '.   Sick indeed.

[Cameroni]

  9 hours ago, connda said:

It was the dumbest thing on the planet to do.  It shows a complete lack of understanding of the Russia psyche

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Not to mention a complete lack of understanding of history. To think invading the Russian homeland is a good idea has to be a prime grounds for receiving a Darwin award.

 

What Napoleon, German Kursk invasion, all this never happened? You really thought being outnumbered in men and economic power invading Russia was a good idea Zelensky? Now your men have to pay the price for your stupidity in blood.

[GammaGlobulin]

  10 hours ago, dinsdale said:

I posted a couple of weeks (maybe a few wks.) ago that the Kursk salient was on the verge of collapse. Got the obligatory laughing and confused emojis from the gutless posters who didn't have the balls to contradict me. Zelensky should never have gone in. A huge strategic blunder. What started out as capturing >1000 km² is probably now <300 km².  The salient is split in two and Russia has control of all supply routes be it captured or under line of fire/drones. All the highly trained troops and top flight weaponry sent into Kursk should have been focused on Ukraine's eastern front which continues to move west..

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IF you want to know why this disaster happened in the first place:

 

Just ask Jeffrey Sachs.

 

He DOES know.

 

[Yolando]

Very sad.  

[thaibeachlovers]

  9 hours ago, Denim said:

 

Yup, they are as happy as Larry with every reverse Ukraine suffers. Not exactly impartial , they actually want Russia to win if only for the pleasure of saying ' told you so '.   Sick indeed.

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I want the pleasure of seeing the killing stop. If Zelensky has to lose for that to happen, so be it.

Stupid war that should never have happened.

[Cameroni]

Russia, as predicted, will prevail on the battlefield. But there are no winners in this war. Russia has paid for this victory with a million of its young men dead, some the best and brightest Russia had.

 

Russia already had an economy the size of Spain. Whilst the Russian economy blossomed in the last 2 years the loss of 1 million men will not strengthen the Russian economy, nor will the loss of the 1 billlion USD, the cost to Russia of fighting the Ukraine war.

 

Whilst Russia has gained a strategic military victory by being slightly better able to defend its homeland in the European plains, in the long run Ukraine will go to the dogs for sure, but Russia too has been set back greatly economically by this war.

[dinsdale]

  9 hours ago, Denim said:

 

Yup, they are as happy as Larry with every reverse Ukraine suffers. Not exactly impartial , they actually want Russia to win if only for the pleasure of saying ' told you so '.   Sick indeed.

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Rubbish. You have mistaken rational thinking and following what's happening (not from MSM) as some sort of dictator worship and just to say "told you so" That's simply deluded. It's been obvious for quite some time the Kursk salient was in trouble and it's also obvious that Russian forces continue to move west. This has nothing to do with being a Putin fanboy or simply wanting Russia to win so one can say "I told you so" It's reality. It's fact. It's happening.

[connda]

  10 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

If the bully is capable of beating me to a pulp, of course I'll bend over. I suppose you'd rather end up in hospital on a morphine drip. Up to you.

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Essentially what the pro-Ukraine members here are saying from the comfort of their bar-stools is that Ukrainian troops should all willingly go to their deaths in order to support NATO expansionist aggression as their country and their troops are used by European elites and US neo-cons as an expendable battering ram to harm Russia, and then following up with the dumbest idea in the modern history of warfare and actually invade Russian territory.

And they keep ignoring the fact that this war was over in April 2022 when Russia and Ukraine had initialed the Istanbul Communiqué until Boris Johnson acting on behalf of the US and NATO talked Zelensky out of signing the agreement - and here we are:  Ukraine is on the verge of losing four more oblasts and perhaps even more land if they fail to accept the reality of the war on the ground and sign a surrender. Ukraine, and by extension NATO (as Ukraine is nothing more than a NATO proxy) have lost.

[thaibeachlovers]

  9 hours ago, dinsdale said:

and it's also obvious that Russian forces continue to move east.

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and it's also obvious that Russian forces continue to move west.

 

Fixed it for you.

[frank83628]

  10 hours ago, Hellfire said:

For me, it was never about who wins, but about who is right. This isn’t a football game. You are a ruthless dictator who enslaved your own people and then attacked your neighbors—I will never stand with you, and I will always despise you. Simple as that. But some creatures have no values; they still live with a primitive mindset, as if they never left the jungle. And no, they are not tigers—more like insects.

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No, you were told who to side with by the mainstream media, Putin has been demonized as the enemy bacause the US &UK & NATO enemies &  conflict to keep the Arms industry getting going. 

Youre just one of their useful idoits with your Ukrainian flag profile. Did you have an 'i got my COVID shot' one before this?

[Summerinsiam]

  10 hours ago, Hellfire said:

For me, it was never about who wins, but about who is right. This isn’t a football game. You are a ruthless dictator who enslaved your own people and then attacked your neighbors—I will never stand with you, and I will always despise you. Simple as that. But some creatures have no values; they still live with a primitive mindset, as if they never left the jungle. And no, they are not tigers—more like insects.

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Then you are extremely naive if you think geopolitics is all black and white like in a fairy tale. If only it were so simple. Rubio was correct when he said recently that it is not about what is right or wrong, but the reality on the ground. Zelenskey is a busted flush and without significant American support, regardless what the pathetic 'coalition of the willing do', things will deteriorate further for Ukraine. If they were winning it might be different. The west does what it perceives is in its interest and not what is 'right', as most of the world, particularly the global south is fully aware. If those two things coincide or can be fashioned into a convincing narrative that can be pushed by the media, then all the better. You need to look no further than its embrace of Netanyahu and demonization of Putin for crystal-clear confirmation of this. The hypocrisy is off the scale. Both convicted war criminals, one an ally and the other not.

[thaibeachlovers]

  9 hours ago, connda said:

Essentially what the pro-Ukraine members here are saying from the comfort of their bar-stools is that Ukrainian troops should all willingly go to their deaths in order to support NATO expansionist aggression as their country and their troops are used by European elites and US neo-cons as an expendable battering ram to harm Russia, and then following up with the dumbest idea in the modern history of warfare and actually invade Russian territory.

And they keep ignoring the fact that this war was over in April 2022 when Russia and Ukraine had initialed the Istanbul Communiqué until Boris Johnson acting on behalf of the US and NATO talked Zelensky out of signing the agreement - and here we are:  Ukraine is on the verge of losing four more oblasts and perhaps even more land if they fail to accept the reality of the war on the ground and sign a surrender. Ukraine, and by extension NATO (as Ukraine is nothing more than a NATO proxy) have lost.

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The war that never had to happen, no one had to die, no infrastructure had to be destroyed.

 

Started by a bunch of warmongering numpties IMO.

[Dan O]

  10 hours ago, dinsdale said:

Rubbish. The reason it hasn't collapsed sooner is that Russia didn't pour troops into the region. As for diverting Russian troops from the eastern front all it did, as I stated above, was divert Ukrainian troops, and highly trained ones at that, away from the front where they were needed most. As for taking Kursk as being strategic for negotiations I agree but Kursk has collapsed. That strategy has failed and is no longer a negotiating chip. It has also resulted in the death/capture/surrender of top line troops and weaponry. There's no putting any icing on this cake. The Kursk salient has collapsed and it's a complete disaster for Zelenky.

 

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I seriously doubt you or anyone else knows what the overall strategic plan of battle is for Ukraine as you are not involved and are not there. Your commenting as an armchair quarter back sitting safely behind you keyboard.

 

Im sure trumps abandoning the Ukrainians without support and intelligence after his temper tantrum had nothing to do with this situation but you trumpettes are not axknowledging that as a impacting factor. 

[Cameroni]

  9 hours ago, frank83628 said:

They are currently doing Israels bidding in Yemen. I don't support Trump on that, I hope it doesn't escalate,

 

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Yes, much like the persecution of Pro Palestinian protesters on campuses. Trump is deep in the Israeli pocket, his most unattractive feature.

 

Still, at least he wants to end the war in Ukraine, which is the right thing to do.

[Cameroni]

  9 hours ago, Dan O said:

I seriously doubt you or anyone else knows what the overall strategic plan of battle is for Ukraine as you are not involved and are not there. Your commenting as an armchair quarter back sitting safely behind you keyboard.

 

Im sure trumps abandoning the Ukrainians without support and intelligence after his temper tantrum had nothing to do with this situation but you trumpettes are not axknowledging that as a impacting factor. 

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Because it is not a factor of importance. Russia was winning the war well before the US withdrew intelligence support. Indeed that only affected prediction of when drone attacks happen, it had very little to do with the war in Kursk. 

 

You are badly informed, and much worse informed than the poster you are criticising.

[Patong2021]

  15 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

But but but, there are posters on this very forum assuring us that it's all Russian propaganda and that Ukraine is winning. Are they wrong?

 

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The information in the article is  merely repeating what is on Telegram, a notoriously unreliable source of information. For all you know it is Russian disinformation.

[connda]

  9 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I want the pleasure of seeing the killing stop. If Zelensky has to lose for that to happen, so be it.

Stupid war that should never have happened.

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Ditto.  The reality on the ground is that Ukraine, and by extension NATO, has lost.  But?  This ends up looking like a real life version of The Black Knight skit in Monty Python and the Holy Grail with those in the West who viscerally hate Russia and all ethnic Russians, rooting the Ukrainian troops onwards to their deaths.  Why not - these people have no skin in the game.  So in their deluded minds, Ukraine should keep feeding troops into the Russian meat-grinder, and when they are consumed, begin the process and conscripting European young men and women and begin to feed them into the meat-grinder too.

Admit defeat (they have lost the war and, yes, Russia has won on the ground), surrender, and get on with creating a "Neutral," disarmed, Ukraine which will never host NATO or Western troops on the Russia border - ever.  Then it ends.  But you know how insane these people are, like those AN members screaming that "Russia can't be allowed to win?"  The only other recourse is using nukes against Russia, and my guess is many of the real, virulent Russia-haters want a nuclear war to happens so that "Russia can't be allowed to win." 

Kill us all so Russia doesn't win!!!" 
Insanity.

"Tis but a flesh wound!"

[dinsdale]

  9 hours ago, Dan O said:

I seriously doubt you or anyone else knows what the overall strategic plan of battle is for Ukraine as you are not involved and are not there. Your commenting as an armchair quarter back sitting safely behind you keyboard.

 

Im sure trumps abandoning the Ukrainians without support and intelligence after his temper tantrum had nothing to do with this situation but you trumpettes are not axknowledging that as a impacting factor. 

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My "armchair commentary" about Kursk was correct. Apart from that one doesn't need to be on the ground to keep up with analysis/war maps which continue to show a westward movement of Russian troops albeit slowly and the collapse of the Kursk salient. As for the withdrawal of support and intel this would have made little to no difference overall. It was only a couple of days before Zelensky came back tail between legs and support and intel was restored. As for the overall strategy only those running the show know this but I am confident in saying that Putin's strategic goal is NOT to take all of Ukraine.

[Cameroni]

  9 hours ago, Patong2021 said:

 

The information in the article is  merely repeating what is on Telegram, a notoriously unreliable source of information. For all you know it is Russian disinformation.

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Yes, the BBC is well known for publishing "disinformation", good call, good call. You manage to keep your streak going of being wrong in every single post, it is quite something to be this wrong, so often, like all the time. I do not think I have seen any other poster be this wrong so often.

[Dan O]

  9 hours ago, dinsdale said:

My "armchair commentary" about Kursk was correct. Apart from that one doesn't need to be on the ground to keep up with analysis/war maps which continue to show a westward movement of Russian troops albeit slowly and the collapse of the Kursk salient. As for the withdrawal of support and intel this would have made little to no difference overall. It was only a couple of days before Zelensky came back tail between legs and support and intel was restored. As for the overall strategy only those running the show know this but I am confident in saying that Putin's strategic goal is NOT to take all of Ukraine.

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Yeah I suppose you wear an army uniform while you type this. You can look at any maps available that you want and won't tell what's actually going on in the field or what the battle plans are. Those are after the fact maps and you dont have real time intell but you go on with your imaginary grasp of battle. Believing trumps withholding of support as a none factor shows exactly the level of knowledge and understanding of the situation. 

[Cameroni]

  9 hours ago, Dan O said:

Yeah I suppose you wear an army uniform while you type this. You can look at any maps available that you want and won't tell what's actually going on in the field or what the battle plans are. Those are after the fact maps and you dont have real time intell but you go on with your imaginary grasp of battle. Believing trumps withholding of support as a none factor shows exactly the level of knowledge and understanding of the situation. 

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Dinsdale has shown a fairly good understanding of the situation, certainly a lot better than yours Dan.

[Dan O]

  9 hours ago, Cameroni said:

 

Because it is not a factor of importance. Russia was winning the war well before the US withdrew intelligence support. Indeed that only affected prediction of when drone attacks happen, it had very little to do with the war in Kursk. 

 

You are badly informed, and much worse informed than the poster you are criticising.

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I'm informed enough to understand the impact of withholding support and intel and willfully allowing the aggressor to continue to escalate an assault. The intel provides more than you can comprehend it seems but you go with that since it feeds you delusion. 

 

I'm also informed enough to know that after the fact maps dont provide actionable intel and if you think it does its obvious you've never been exposed in service

[dinsdale]

  9 hours ago, Patong2021 said:

 

The information in the article is  merely repeating what is on Telegram, a notoriously unreliable source of information. For all you know it is Russian disinformation.

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This is an example of completely denying reality. All war maps show Kursk collapsing. As for the telegram bit that's from one soldier in Sudzha who is posting to his account. Can't see how this is unreliable. Indeed Sudzha will likely come back under full Russian control this week as they are already moving in as "Volodymyr" posted  "Ukrainian troops are trying to leave – columns of troops and equipment. Some of them are burned by Russian drones on the road. It is impossible to leave during the day," 

As for Russian disinformation are you saying the BBC is disseminating Russian disinformation? As I say a complete denial of reality. 

[thaibeachlovers]

  9 hours ago, dinsdale said:

I am confident in saying that Putin's strategic goal is NOT to take all of Ukraine.

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If Putin could only take what he has after 3 years, in what insane world do those that think Putin would try to take all of Ukraine live?

If he had, even I would not be calling for an end to western support.

[Patong2021]

  9 hours ago, Cameroni said:

 

Yes, the BBC is well known for publishing "disinformation", good call, good call. You manage to keep your streak going of being wrong in every single post, it is quite something to be this wrong, so often, like all the time. I do not think I have seen any other poster be this wrong so often.

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Anyone who disagrees with you is wrong.

Telegram is not a reliable source of information. Yes, some news media   have stories, and they are transparent in identifying their information source.  Until the information is corroborated by Ukraine and more relaible sources such as defense analysts in the UK or USA or EU, it is prudent to take the articles under caution.  Withdrawals  in an active combat zone are never easy and come with casualties. No surprise. Wheteher or not the casualties are devastating is something else.

[Cameroni]

  9 hours ago, dinsdale said:

This is an example of completely denying reality. All war maps show Kursk collapsing. As for the telegram bit that's from one soldier in Sudzha who is posting to his account. Can't see how this is unreliable. Indeed Sudzha will likely come back under full Russian control this week as they are already moving in as "Volodymyr" posted  "Ukrainian troops are trying to leave – columns of troops and equipment. Some of them are burned by Russian drones on the road. It is impossible to leave during the day," 

As for Russian disinformation are you saying the BBC is disseminating Russian disinformation? As I say a complete denial of reality. 

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Indeed, it is the ostrich tactic, stick your head in the sand and the bad news will go away. We should feel pity for the Ukraine arm chair cheerleaders, the lengths they have to go to deny reality.

[Cameroni]

  9 hours ago, Patong2021 said:

Until the information is corroborated by Ukraine and more relaible sources such as defense analysts in the UK or USA or EU

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Hahahahahahahaha...thanks man. I needed a good laugh.

 

Nothing is true until Ukraine corroborates it. Of course, good luck living in denial Patong.

[Dan O]

  9 hours ago, Cameroni said:

 

Dinsdale has shown a fairly good understanding of the situation, certainly a lot better than yours Dan.

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Hahaha not based on his comments on this thread. Saying Russia was is or will win the war doesnt show any understanding of a specific battle. Claiming to see after the fact maps showing that as your "proof" of whats going on in specific battle or being able to gleen what a battle strategy is from them shows how little he knows. Anyone can spout bs using hindsight but still doesn't mean they have knowledge of situation real time.  Use your brain and think.