How much MORE evidence do we need to prove beyond doubt that the mRNA Covid-19 shots kill?

[peter zwart]

suggests that there is a high likelihood..............but no solid proof. I myself have not taken the vaccine and strongly believe it has been a mess. However, there is no conclusive evidence for either side.

[jas007]

53 minutes ago, xylophone said:

What a load of old claptrap the post is when it states, "Leaving aside the fact the jabs were designed to kill". Where on earth do these people come from?

 

For the record, there have been 13.64 billion vaccination doses administered to date and maybe, just maybe, one or two folks may have died because they had comorbidities, however in the main it is a safe vaccine and this vaccine modus operandi (mRNA) has been worked on for over 25 years and is considered safe.

 

One can choose to believe the anti-VAX people with their unproven, so-called "stats" or trust in the people whom we have trained (worldwide) in the fields of science, medicine, medical technology and research through the various universities, hospitals, teaching and learning establishments, and I know which ones I would believe and trust, which is why I have had the jabs – – and lo and behold, I'm still here!

“maybe, just maybe, one or two folks may have died because they had comorbidities..."

 

Surely, you jest. Or perhaps you simply weren’t paying attention during the entire COVD era? Or perhaps you’re one of those people who were jabbed and now regret it, but you simply must try to rationalize your decision.  Or maybe you’re just well and truly brainwashed.  Or maybe it’s your job to continue to spread propaganda.  In any event, anything you say or write cannot hurt me.  And I don’t expect anyone to pay any attention to my opinions.  I’m not giving medical advice, just stating some of what I know or believe.

 

As for who to “trust”?  Surely you must know that many, worldwide, have now awaken to their mistake and now see the COVID jabs for what they were.  And you should also know, although you don’t seem to know much at all, is that people in the fields of “science, medicine, medical technology and research through the various universities, hospitals, teaching and learning establishments” can and should be questioned.  Some are rule followers who don’t really know much at all about viruses. Some are bought and paid for or followed the rules under duress and in fear of losing their jobs.

 

As for the fact that you’re still around?  Obviously you are, but for how much longer?  You might think you know, but you don’t.  Perhaps you’ll appear in next year’s Darwin Awards.

[xylophone]

14 minutes ago, dinsdale said:

If you say so. Try a simple Google search to educate yourself. Try this for starters.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ehf2.14680

In summary, we identified a series of myocarditis-related deaths following COVID-19 vaccination, confirmed with autopsies, to provide the medical community with a more comprehensive understanding of fatal COVID-19 vaccine-induced myocarditis. The temporal relationship, internal and external consistency seen among cases in this review with known COVID-19 vaccine-induced myocarditis, its pathobiological mechanisms, and related excess death, complemented with autopsy confirmation, independent adjudication, and application of the Bradford Hill criteria to the overall epidemiology of vaccine myocarditis, suggests that there is a high likelihood of a causal link between COVID-19 vaccines and death from myocarditis. 

The original paper regarding the myocarditis deaths contained research flaws and was later withdrawn and this follow-up to the original published article regarding myocarditis deaths explains why the research is suspect and was withdrawn.

 

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ehf2.14819 
 

[FolkGuitar]

I'm constantly amazed at what some people consider 'facts' and 'truths.'

It's as if they've made up their own definitions of the words!

[Dan O]

52 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

And not a word in your rant about the time-series analysis of Covid-vaccine roll-out in Czech republic, Israel, New Zealand and the US Medicare data.  

Nope not a rant that would be you as you constantly want to rehash this issue with questionable comments.  I'm not obsessed in trying to prove an issue that has questionable merit. You never mentioned those other countries or issues so yeah pivot aware to avoid the issue being discussed. 

 

You didn't answer or respond to my statements on your claims so its pretty obvious you aren't knowledgeable about medical terms and theeir meanings or the systems used for monitoring reports

42 minutes ago, peter zwart said:

A discussion that could go on forever. Can it be proven that the vaccines are deadly…? So far, no. But the events caused by the vaccines do raise doubts, to say the least. I can understand well that people who took the vaccine don’t want to hear anything else. Still, there are more people who regret getting vaccinated than those who didn’t take it. The mistrust toward Big Pharma also comes from somewhere. I believe that neither side can truly prove they’re right, but the aversion to vaccines has increased enormously — and for a reason.

 Bs on your claim of more people that regret getting than Not.    Post a link that's credible for that claim? If you can 

[johng]

1 hour ago, Red Phoenix said:

If your assertion were true, that would make the Covid-19 gen-therapy by far the safest 'vaccine' ever administered.  

And current vaccine hesitancy for these mRNA-shots would be non-existing.   

 

 

Not just the MRNA shots either   people are finally  waking up it seems.

From the Sunday Times (of London England)  Sunday June 01 2025

non paywall link

https://archive.ph/gZY0j#selection-1481.0-1487.150

 

The NHS has a vaccine problem: staff don’t want the jab

 

Almost 90 per cent of employees at one health trust rejected the offer of a flu vaccination last winter, putting patients at greater risk of infection

[Stiddle Mump]

3 hours ago, Lacessit said:

A better question is - how many people is the OP killing by deliberately spreading misinformation about vaccines?

And what info, sorry misinfo, might that be Sir? People, and I include doctors, scientists and other white-coats, are simply under the virus spell. They are also relentlessly being bombarded with nonsense, and titbits, from the Big Pharma lobby.

 

Things are moving; and swiftly. I hope Kennedy can get the secret CDC files released. Go to;

 

www.CanYouCatchaCold.com

 

and watch the first film for FREE.  You will be a changed man for sure.

[johng]

1 hour ago, FritsSikkink said:

Ever heard of trade secrets? 

Not trade secrets   the study data that they said showed their product was "safe and effective"

in reality we know that it is neither   the wanted to suppress the damning results for 70 years  as well as having absolutely no liabilities for the injuries...disgusting !

[thjames007]

2 hours ago, Caldera said:

It's beyond dumb to believe that Covid shots are dangerous. Yet another deranged person spreading misinformation.

The question is why he wasted his time writing the OP. 

 

I only read half of it to get to the comments, to watch people call him a moron!! 

[jayboy]

3 hours ago, Red Phoenix said:

COVID time series graphs show clearly the COVID vaccine kill people. That's why they keep the plots hidden from view.

All you have to do is plot the time series graphs and you can see the safety signal clearly. It's not rocket science. So what do they do? They hide the time series data.

Source: https://kirschsubstack.com/p/covid-time-series-graphs-show-clearly

 

= = = 

Executive summary

The claim that the COVID vaccines are perfectly safe is easily falsified by looking at any time series plot.

A safe vaccine has a relatively flat time series (it may have bumps for seasonality if the vaccine is given over a narrow time window).

An unsafe vaccine has a time series where the deaths per day increase from baseline.

So it’s obvious from the time series data what is going on.

But did you know that none of the papers in the peer reviewed scientific literature will show you a time series plot for the COVID vaccine? I couldn’t find a single one!

And when Andrew Bridgen (along with 6 other MPs) sent a letter asking Professor Sir Ian Diamond the CEO of the UK ONS for the time series data, they told him to pound sand. Read this [ https://kirschsubstack.com/p/head-of-the-uk-office-of-national ] 

This is one of the main reasons why my substack exists: to publish the data that mainstream scientists will not publish.

In this article, I’ll explain:

1. what a time series is,

2. what a safe vaccine looks like, and

3. what the COVID vaccines look like.

Once you learn this, you’ll be shaking your head wondering, “This is SO obvious. How can the medical community ignore this evidence?”

I’d love to ask them that question, but none of them will talk to me.

And there is no chance that anyone in the mainstream media is going to ask people like Paul Offit that question. That’ll be the day!

 

You rely on the evidence of Steve Kirsch, a discredited authority.Steve Kirsch’s credibility on COVID-19 vaccinations is low within the scientific and medical communities due to his lack of relevant expertise, reliance on flawed data interpretations, and promotion of debunked claims. While he has a platform and following among vaccine skeptics, his assertions are consistently contradicted by robust evidence from clinical trials, global health data, and expert consensus, which demonstrate that COVID-19 vaccines are safe and effective at preventing severe disease and death.

 

 

[still kicking]

2 hours ago, Caldera said:

It's beyond dumb to believe that Covid shots are dangerous. Yet another deranged person spreading misinformation.

And he should be banned for good

[NoDisplayName]

3 hours ago, Red Phoenix said:

https://kirschsubstack.

 

Hi, I’m Steve Kirsch.

I used to be a high tech serial entrepreneur before retiring at age 64.

 

Oh, c'mon, man!

He's not even a chiropracter!!!!!!

[johng]

11 minutes ago, jayboy said:

You rely on the evidence of Steve Kirsch, a discredited authority.Steve Kirsch’s credibility on COVID-19 vaccinations is low within the scientific and medical communities due to his lack of relevant expertise

 

He is presenting statistical analysis of data provided by health agencies and insurance companies no need for  "relevant expertise" with "vaccines"

[dinsdale]

58 minutes ago, xylophone said:

The original paper regarding the myocarditis deaths contained research flaws and was later withdrawn and this follow-up to the original published article regarding myocarditis deaths explains why the research is suspect and was withdrawn.

 

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ehf2.14819 
 

 

[jayboy]

4 minutes ago, johng said:

 

He is presenting statistical analysis of data provided by health agencies and insurance companies no need for  "relevant expertise" with "vaccines"

 

He invented the optical mouse.

[PJ71]

3 hours ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

The article [ https://kirschsubstack.com/p/covid-time-series-graphs-show-clearly ] then provides the actual data, in several short chapters: 

• What’s a time series?

• Time series plots for non-COVID vaccines: a FLAT line

• Time series plots for COVID vaccines from Czech Republic: not a flat line!

• Time series plots for COVID vaccines from Israel: not a flat line!

• New Zealand COVID vaccine: not a flat line!

• United States Medicare COVID vaccine: not a flat line!

And it ends with a summary:

Summary

In a safe vaccine, there is a 3 week rise due to HVE and then the deaths per day stabilizes with a mild straight slope based on the average age of the vaccinated cohort.

In an unsafe vaccine, the deaths per day keep rising until levelling off.

It’s so obvious, isn’t it?

The COVID shot time series shows rises in every country because it isn’t a safe vaccine.

But the medical community refuses to admit the obvious.

And I don’t think they ever will. No matter how clear the evidence is.

So I’m just doing my part to document how broken the system is. For the record.

 

= = = 

Are you friends with that other guy that's scared of his own shadow, 'tallmanjimmy' or something like that?

[madone]

seriously, how much more time can you spend posting this <deleted> and why here? 

 

[sandyf]

3 hours ago, Red Phoenix said:

That's actually a rhetorical question, because the evidence at this moment in time is so monumentally overwhelming that those that still deny the harms of mRNA Covid-19 shots are either paid pharma-shills or are doing so 'by habit'.  After 4-5 years of the evidence building up, and continually growing, the deniers are so entrenched in their position that no matter what facts and data are presented, these are routinely dismissed.  Facts and data presented are no longer challenged, their only arguments being ad hominem attacks (targetting the messenger, and not the message), ridicule and 'anti-vaxxer' insults.  

 

They simply closed their eyes and ears for the facts, blinded by the 24/7 Big Pharma propaganda that wanted to convince everybody that black is white and the jabs are safe, effective and necessary. 

A quick memory refresher of what they '(dis)missed':

• The early VAERS data spoke volumes. Ignoring the main reason for the collection of these data.
• People suddenly collapsing during live-broadcasts and athletes collapsing on the field also on live TV (and this in fairly large numbers).
• Ed Dowd, exposing the disaster by showing the rise in all cause mortality data (the one set of data that cannot be manipulated).  And life insurance executives confirming the rising deaths in working-age people. 
• Early as well as continual warnings from experts in their fields (e.g. cardiology, oncology, bio-statisticans, etc.) censored and suppressed.

There is much more, but it is all to no avail.  

As the dutch proverb goes 'What use are candles and glasses if the owl doesn't want to see' 

 

This as introduction to once again a giant nail in the coffin of the Jab-harm deniers.  

> The consistent pattern when you plot deaths following Covid-19 jabs in a time-series.  

The shots do not prevent you from catching Covid (claiming different was one of the early lies, on which the jab-enthusiasts had to backtrack).  And the new message now is that they prevent serious illness and death.  If that were true you would expect a stable or even declining trend-line of deaths after the covid-shots.  

And the point is that this holds true for the majority of OTHER vaccines, but NOT for the Covid-19 death-shots.  

That's also the reason that the compromised Pharma-advertisement funded mainstream media never publish these graphs.

 

In my next post in this thread I will provide the link and some excerpts of articles by Steve Kirsch that demonstrate that the Covid-19 shots do NOT protect you, but are slow-kill injections as proven by all the time-series graphs from different countries. 

 

= = = 

The arguments are getting more and more stupid.

It may come as a surprise to you, but people can die for all  sorts of reasons, not just from vaccines. It is all about managing the risk factor. Any more of this rubbish and some will be jumping out the window.

Please tell, is it more dangerous to have a vaccination or drive in Thailand?

Answers on a postcard.

[richard_smith237]

1 hour ago, peter zwart said:

A discussion that could go on forever. Can it be proven that the vaccines are deadly…? So far, no. But the events caused by the vaccines do raise doubts, to say the least. I can understand well that people who took the vaccine don’t want to hear anything else. Still, there are more people who regret getting vaccinated than those who didn’t take it. The mistrust toward Big Pharma also comes from somewhere. I believe that neither side can truly prove they’re right, but the aversion to vaccines has increased enormously — and for a reason.

 

It’s important to recognise a fundamental truth: everything can be harmful to someone.

 

Some individuals are allergic to water, others react to something as benign as orange juice.

 

Even slippers, yes, slippers, can be deadly. In fact, a study examining data from 2000 to 2020 found that around 71,000 slipper-related lower limb injuries were treated in U.S. emergency departments.

 

This is precisely the issue with many discussions around vaccines. There are rare but genuine risks, such as allergic reactions or conditions like vaccine-induced thrombocytopenia (VITT). These risks are real and should not be dismissed - but they must be understood in context and this is something anti-vaxxers fail to do, deliberately so IMO.

 

What’s consistently absent in anti-vaccination arguments is perspective, a complete lack of it....  Risks are inflated, stripped of statistical grounding, and presented as universal threats. This is particularly evident in the dramatic references to conditions like pericarditis and myocarditis. Yet, the post above (also quoted below) fails to acknowledge that these same conditions can also result from viral infections.

 

In short, the conversation needs balance the Anti-vaxxers deliberately avoid.

 

1 hour ago, dinsdale said:

In summary, we identified a series of myocarditis-related deaths following COVID-19 vaccination, confirmed with autopsies, to provide the medical community with a more comprehensive understanding of fatal COVID-19 vaccine-induced myocarditis

 

Once again (from the above quote) what’s sorely missing from the conversation is perspective.

 

The prevalence of pericarditis and myocarditis in individuals who contract COVID-19 or even influenza is vastly higher than the incidence of such conditions following vaccination. That’s not to deny that vaccine-induced cases occur - because they do - but anti-vaccination narratives consistently ignore this crucial context.

 

If any of us have ever had a serious case of influenza, it’s highly likely that we experienced some degree of pericardial or myocardial inflammation, whether we were aware of it or not. These are not conditions exclusive to vaccines - they’re common complications of viral infections, and in many cases, far more severe.

 

The anti-vaxx crowd often cites these adverse events as if they are unique to vaccines, completely overlooking that the diseases themselves pose a much greater risk. It's a textbook example of cherry-picking data without proportionality, and it undermines meaningful, evidence-based discussion.

 

[johng]

5 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

He invented the optical mouse.

 

Exactly,    and so he has relevant experience as the jabbs where tested on 8 mice 😋

[richard_smith237]

30 minutes ago, thjames007 said:

3 hours ago, Caldera said:

It's beyond dumb to believe that Covid shots are dangerous. Yet another deranged person spreading misinformation.

The question is why he wasted his time writing the OP. 

 

He doesn't write it... he just copies and pastes it from anti-vax sites and floods this sub-section of the forum... 

 

There's nothing wrong with that - I think all voices should be heard and this sub-forum is 'out of the way' and specifically placed for such discussions.

[richard_smith237]

25 minutes ago, still kicking said:

3 hours ago, Caldera said:

It's beyond dumb to believe that Covid shots are dangerous. Yet another deranged person spreading misinformation.

And he should be banned for good

 

Yes, I do believe he’s deranged and spreading misinformation - but unfortunately, that’s the world we live in now: a digital age where delusional fruitcakes have access to mass media and can spread whatever nonsense they like.

 

However, banning him outright would be a blow to free speech, and in many ways, that’s more dangerous than the recycled anti-vax drivel Red posts in this sub-forum.

 

We have the ability to read it, ignore it, or better yet, call it out for what it is - misinformation, lazily copied and pasted without nuance or understanding.

 

Different users here have different styles: some, like Rumak, lash out when they're clearly outclassed in discussion; others, like Red, just keep hammering away with repetitive content regardless of how often it's debunked. Then there’s Stiddle, whose posts are so absurd they’re only worth engaging with on occasion. And of course, there's Johng, whose contributions rarely rise above sheer idiocy - as shown yet again above.

 

But I don't want to overlook the value of this sub-forum. It has also become a platform for thoughtful, informed debate, with contributors like Rattlesnake bringing well-articulated perspectives - even if, ironically, he’s on the anti-vax side.

 

What’s most surprising is that someone of such clear intelligence holds that position at all. He stands out as the only anti-vaxxer here who isn’t neurotic, unhinged, or completely off the rails. His arguments, at the very least, warrant consideration - if only to sharpen our own - we should all be challenged.

[xylophone]

20 minutes ago, dinsdale said:

 

So you choose to believe something from "Fox 25" posted on YouTube which shows an interview with Dr Milhoan who was foremost in promoting the use of hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin to treat the Covid virus??

 

He also appeared on an online hearing with Georgia congressman Marjorie Taylor Greene who is an outspoken anti-VAX campaigner, and Dr Kirk McCullough who gained notoriety for his role in the conspiracy theory that Covid 19 vaccines were causing athletes to have heart attacks.

 

If that underpins your argument against the vaccines, along with other conspiracy theory type rubbish, then your posts really aren't worth consideration in any way, shape or form.

[transam]

1 minute ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

Yes, I do believe he’s deranged and spreading misinformation - but unfortunately, that’s the world we live in now: a digital age where delusional fruitcakes have access to mass media and can spread whatever nonsense they like.

 

However, banning him outright would be a blow to free speech, and in many ways, that’s more dangerous than the recycled anti-vax drivel Red posts in this sub-forum.

 

We have the ability to read it, ignore it, or better yet, call it out for what it is - misinformation, lazily copied and pasted without nuance or understanding.

 

Different users here have different styles: some, like Rumak, lash out when they're clearly outclassed in discussion; others, like Red, just keep hammering away with repetitive content regardless of how often it's debunked. Then there’s Stiddle, whose posts are so absurd they’re only worth engaging with on occasion. And of course, there's Johng, whose contributions rarely rise above sheer idiocy - as shown yet again above.

 

But I don't want to overlook the value of this sub-forum. It has also become a platform for thoughtful, informed debate, with contributors like Rattlesnake bringing well-articulated perspectives - even if, ironically, he’s on the anti-vax side.

 

What’s most surprising is that someone of such clear intelligence holds that position at all. He stands out as the only anti-vaxxer here who isn’t neurotic, unhinged, or completely off the rails. His arguments, at the very least, warrant consideration - if only to sharpen our own - we should all be challenged.

I recall a blokes' username on another forum who was sent packing, seems there was a cult of some sort involved.

His username was Blueshpinx, maybe spelt differently, but a coincidence, to be sure, oh, and same posted nonsense...... 

[sandyf]

1 hour ago, peter zwart said:

A discussion that could go on forever. Can it be proven that the vaccines are deadly…? So far, no. But the events caused by the vaccines do raise doubts, to say the least. I can understand well that people who took the vaccine don’t want to hear anything else. Still, there are more people who regret getting vaccinated than those who didn’t take it. The mistrust toward Big Pharma also comes from somewhere. I believe that neither side can truly prove they’re right, but the aversion to vaccines has increased enormously — and for a reason.

Of course there were going to be doubts, backs were up against the wall and insufficient time available for comprehensive testing, it was always going to be a pecentage basis. As I already said it was all about managing the risk factor and decisions had to be made, and that applied as much to individuals. I personally stuck to the traditional vaccine from AZ rather than the new approach with mnra.

The pandemic caused nearly a quarter of a million deaths in the UK, and despite what you think, if people started dying again in the same numbers people would be rushing around trying to get vaccinated.

Mutation has probably reduced the need to some extent for healthy people to be vaccinated but there are many at risk, just as they are from flu.

Heaven forbid that mutation changes direction, but if it does I know which way I will jump, but feel free to take your chances.

Just don't make out it is the only choice.

[richard_smith237]

7 minutes ago, transam said:

I recall a blokes' username on another forum who was sent packing, seems there was a cult of some sort involved.

His username was Blueshpinx, maybe spelt differently, but a coincidence, to be sure, oh, and same posted nonsense...... 

 

Well, let’s be honest - he’s clearly anti-vax bonkers, and as you mentioned Bluesphinx and Redphoenix aren’t exactly dissimilar names either...

 

That said, we’re talking about someone posting deep within a sub-forum of a sub-forum, essentially shouting into a void. And frankly, the more he posts, the more unhinged and neurotic the anti-vaccination movement begins to appear. I’ve yet to see a single post from him that shows even a flicker of contextual awareness or intellectual balance.

 

But here’s the line I won’t cross: I do not support silencing posts like his. We all have a responsibility to post with intellectual integrity - especially when dealing with public health topics - but as misguided as his contributions may be, the greater danger lies in censorship.

 

 

[johng]

15 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

Johng, whose contributions rarely rise above sheer idiocy - as shown yet again above.

 

Ha ha thanks for the honourable mention 😋

[johng]

19 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

we should all be challenged.

As you most certainly are...see I can also be rude..now will we both go cry in the corner ?

[richard_smith237]

8 minutes ago, johng said:

30 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

we should all be challenged.

As you most certainly are...see I can also be rude..now will we both go cry in the corner ?

 

A funny and witty retort.... Touché....

... That actually took some intelligent thought - Fair play.

[Red Phoenix]

1 hour ago, jayboy said:

You rely on the evidence of Steve Kirsch, a discredited authority.Steve Kirsch’s credibility on COVID-19 vaccinations is low within the scientific and medical communities due to his lack of relevant expertise, reliance on flawed data interpretations, and promotion of debunked claims. While he has a platform and following among vaccine skeptics, his assertions are consistently contradicted by robust evidence from clinical trials, global health data, and expert consensus, which demonstrate that COVID-19 vaccines are safe and effective at preventing severe disease and death.

I do not 'rely on the evidence of Steve Kirsch'.  

He simply put the available data from Czech Republic, Israel, New Zealand and the US Medicare, in a time-series graph.  

And the mRNA Covid-19 'vaccines' show a different trend than time-series of other vaccines.  Instead of a stable or declining trend of death, as one might expect from a 'safe and effective' vaccine, these long-term kill-shots show a motality increase.  

And he is fully right that these tell-tale time-series graphs are 'taboo' subjects at the mainstream media, as they clearly expose the awful truth.