1 hour ago, spidermike007 said:

Okay my apologies if I misinterpreted your post, yes I do receive quite a bit of vitriol, it's not easy being moderate or reasonable on this forum these days. 

 

The illegal immigration topic is a very hot topic indeed, and in my opinion it cannot be discussed without a rational discussion of legal immigration and the urgent need to reform the system. America is missing out on the best and the brightest as visas are getting harder and harder to come by, and that is a great detriment to the future of the nation. 

Yes, it can be discussed rationally. 

 

But illegal aliens can also be deported at the same time. It IS possible to do two things at once.  The first step in "reforming the system" is to enforce existing laws. That way you can see exactly what reform is needed. 

23 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Ah yes, the white supremacist President who helps a Jewish country, and a Jewish man who....  sorry, help me out here. 

I guess you didn't realize it but Jews are white, for the most part. And you also forget that Israel is the largest lobby in America, and Trump rarely says no to lobbyists, nor corporate interests. 

23 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Yes, it can be discussed rationally. 

 

But illegal aliens can also be deported at the same time. It IS possible to do two things at once.  The first step in "reforming the system" is to enforce existing laws. That way you can see exactly what reform is needed. 

While I completely agree with what you're saying, it does not take into account the fact that corporations and businesses large and small need illegal immigrants for labor, and without them the US would not be able to function, with the current immigration system. 

14 hours ago, Acme said:

 

Yes. Of course Omar masterminded the entire operation. She is a democrat. Therefore she is a scammer. All Republicans are super honest. Trump being the most honest. 

16 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

I guess you didn't realize it but Jews are white, for the most part. And you also forget that Israel is the largest lobby in America, and Trump rarely says no to lobbyists, nor corporate interests. 

Not to white surpremacists, they aren't.  You need to keep up on your hate groups.  I can't think of too many white supremacist groups that would welcome Jewish members, especially since many of them are fundy Christian based as well.

15 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

While I completely agree with what you're saying, it does not take into account the fact that corporations and businesses large and small need illegal immigrants for labor, and without them the US would not be able to function, with the current immigration system. 

There is no business or economic sector that "needs" illegal immigrants. They are simply convenient and cheap and easy to exploit.  Myriad countries in the world do very well without a permanent underclass of 10-20 million people.  

 

The US would function just fine without them. Maybe lettuce would cost 25 cents more a head, and some rich liberals might have to cut their own grass, but that is the extent of the impact. Plus untold billions of dollars would be saved in social welfare costs. 

2 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

There is no business or economic sector that "needs" illegal immigrants. They are simply convenient and cheap and easy to exploit.  Myriad countries in the world do very well without a permanent underclass of 10-20 million people.  

 

The US would function just fine without them. Maybe lettuce would cost 25 cents more a head, and some rich liberals might have to cut their own grass, but that is the extent of the impact. Plus untold billions of dollars would be saved in social welfare costs. 

When the Europeans formed the USA, were they all not immigrants, welcomed with open arms off of a ship....🤗

And now Hana's lot are OK, it must all stop....

2 minutes ago, transam said:

When the Europeans formed the USA, were they all not immigrants, welcomed with open arms off of a ship....🤗

And now Hana's lot are OK, it must all stop....

Nope.

They were settlers and conquerers, of a barely inhabited and largely unsettled continent. Lots of things have changed in 400 years.... it is a bit silly to compare settlement patterns of the days when ships were powered by sail and leeches were the height of medical technology.

4 minutes ago, transam said:

When the Europeans formed the USA, were they all not immigrants, welcomed with open arms off of a ship....

And now Hana's lot are OK, it must all stop....

 

I don't recall reading about all the $billions of programs offering free stuff from the gub'ment back then.

 

2 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Nope.

They were settlers and conquerers, of a barely inhabited and largely unsettled continent. Lots of things have changed in 400 years.... it is a bit silly to compare settlement patterns of the days when ships were powered by sail and leeches were the height of medical technology.

Yes, a lot has happened since then, if now, the Native Indians perhaps would still have a country.......🤫

2 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

I don't recall reading about all the $billions of programs offering free stuff from the gub'ment back then.

 

Things have moved on chap, progress............🤭

On 12/6/2025 at 9:40 AM, mikeymike100 said:

You have evidence, to support your claim?

Perhaps the Trumpian pronouncements about Somalia could be presented?

22 minutes ago, transam said:

Yes, a lot has happened since then, if now, the Native Indians perhaps would still have a country.......🤫

No, they wouldn't. Because "the Native Americans" did not exist as an entity. They were scores of warring tribes, happily killing each other and burning their huts. No indication that it would have ever changed. 

59 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

Yes. Of course Omar masterminded the entire operation. She is a democrat. Therefore she is a scammer. All Republicans are super honest. Trump being the most honest. 

She needs to sue him for a trillion dollars.

6 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

No, they wouldn't. Because "the Native Americans" did not exist as an entity. They were scores of warring tribes, happily killing each other and burning their huts. No indication that it would have ever changed. 

And the Europeans at that time were all so peaceful. No wars going on at all.

16 minutes ago, gargamon said:

And the Europeans at that time were all so peaceful. No wars going on at all.

Never said that, nice strawman. But Europe was much more densely populated and settled. There was little or no basically uninhabited land left.  Hence the expansion to the Americas.

1 hour ago, JAG said:

Perhaps the Trumpian pronouncements about Somalia could be presented?

 

Could you elucidate?

1 hour ago, Hanaguma said:

No, they wouldn't. Because "the Native Americans" did not exist as an entity. They were scores of warring tribes, happily killing each other and burning their huts. No indication that it would have ever changed. 

"Did not exist as an entity"...........😂, did you not know that Brittania had Waring tribes, as did Scotland..........😂

 

The Europeans dealt with the true inhabitants of America, stop making excuses....🥴

17 hours ago, cjinchiangrai said:

Miller separated babies from their parents and forgot to write down their names. Trump just called Somali-Americans garbage. Try to sell your racist lies elsewhere.

 

“Separated babies”?
Zero-tolerance prosecuted illegal entry under existing law. Trump ended the separations with his own executive order in 2018. Biden separated more kids later for the same reason.

Stop lying.“Called Somali-Americans garbage”?
He called Ilhan Omar and the garbage, right after her community got busted for a $250 million welfare fraud ring. If that’s “racist,” so is calling out crime.Your whole reply is just emotional blackmail and selective memory.
Enforcing the border isn’t hate.
Open borders that let fentanyl and cartels flood in is the real cruelty.Take the fake outrage somewhere else.

On 12/5/2025 at 11:43 PM, spidermike007 said:

Every immigrant is individually vetted, and immigration is capped worldwide, but no longer are any nationalities automatically restricted.

 

Are you stating that every immigrant the Biden administration/ Myorkas let in had been individually vetted? 

 

Your opinion is irrelevant. You're minority party and abused the good will of the American people.

 

Excluding Trump 1, 2 the past decades have always been about loose immigration to game the census and House of Representatives. It's that cynical 

 

I don't think anyone really cares about your opinion Spidermite

1 hour ago, Hanaguma said:

No, they wouldn't. Because "the Native Americans" did not exist as an entity. They were scores of warring tribes, happily killing each other and burning their huts. No indication that it would have ever changed. 

Not much difference from what's going on right now with all the conflicts around the world. I would not necessarily describe what we have as being an improvement over the lifestyle of the average Native American back then. There was also quite a bit of peace and quite a bit of prosperity among many tribes, who had incredible open lands for hunting and some very rich mystical folklore as part of their lifestyle. 

 

It's a very much a white man's trope to paint all Native Americans as warring tribes and savages. 

2 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

Not much difference from what's going on right now with all the conflicts around the world. I would not necessarily describe what we have as being an improvement over the lifestyle of the average Native American back then. There was also quite a bit of peace and quite a bit of prosperity among many tribes, who had incredible open lands for hunting and some very rich mystical folklore as part of their lifestyle. 

 

It's a very much a white man's trope to paint all Native Americans as warring tribes and savages. 

They also had a life expectancy of about 30.  And prosperity? Come on, man.  Modern life is the best in history, no need to romanticize the past.  Native tribes had no written language, no science, no medicine, no means of transportation.

 

Yeah, sounds like paradise...

2 hours ago, transam said:

"Did not exist as an entity"...........😂, did you not know that Brittania had Waring tribes, as did Scotland..........😂

 

The Europeans dealt with the true inhabitants of America, stop making excuses....🥴

True, up to about 1100AD. Then most became part of England and/or settled their borders.  By the time the Europeans crossed the oceans, it was largely over.  

All a matter of population density, technology, borders.

31 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

They also had a life expectancy of about 30.  And prosperity? Come on, man.  Modern life is the best in history, no need to romanticize the past.  Native tribes had no written language, no science, no medicine, no means of transportation.

 

Yeah, sounds like paradise...

Yep. That is the white man's view, for sure. We did them such a great favor by conquering them and giving them an opportunity to donate their land to us. 

 

Native Americans built the basis on which the US was built. Their beliefs, morals, farming techniques, culture, fashion and religion shaped the history of the United States and continues to shape the culture Americans live in today. Without the structure that the Native Americans built, the United States that most love and live in today would not exist.

 

Over the course of thousands of years, a large array of plant species were domesticated, bred and cultivated by the indigenous peoples of the American continent. This American agricultural endowment to the world now constitutes more than half of all crops grown worldwide. In certain cases, the indigenous peoples developed entirely new species and strains through artificial selection, as was the case in the domestication and breeding of maize from wild teosinte grasses in the valleys of southern Mexico. Maize alone now accounts in gross tonnage for the majority of all grain produced world-wide. A great number of these agricultural products still retain native names (Nahuatl and others) in the English and Spanish lexicons.

 

https://share.google/30vLkyq0pRsETLN4h

22 hours ago, 3NUMBAS said:

Albert Einstein was a migrant ,

an illegal one ???   

12 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

My cousin is an immigration attorney in the US, and I speak to him often about immigration policies and rules, and he has stated repeatedly how difficult it is for a for the average person without highly specialized skills to get a visa to live and work in the US. So though you are very good at quoting, and cutting and pasting policies, you just simply do not know what you're talking about when it comes to current immigration policy for most laborers. 

Thanks for the response!!! 

The information provided I thought would be better than saying this is what my friends tell me, but here we are. 

 

I could be wrong, but several of my friends from grade school still own family farms. They mostly use family and local labor (school kids after school and on the weekend) for regular operations.

 

The friends that own non-livestock farms (mostly blue berry, Tomatoes, and orange groves) use migrant labor during picking season. I'm told all the migrate labor they use are all legal. How true that is I'm not sure. Almost all of them use a labor company that provides the pickers and they said the labor company told them they have no problems getting the visa for workers. Maybe the labor company works with the same people and has connections that makes it easy for them, but who knows maybe the labor company is lying or my friends are telling the complete truth.  I'm sure a company sponsoring workers to come to the US for contracted work is going to be easier then a single person. 

 

12 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

And you also forget that Israel is the largest lobby in America,

This is false.  This is a lie pushed by the anti-Semitic crowd.    The largest lobby in the USA is the US Chamber of Commerce, followed by the National Association of Realtors

 

https://www.opensecrets.org/federal-lobbying/top-spenders

6 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

Native Americans built the basis on which the US was built. Their beliefs, morals, farming techniques, culture, fashion and religion shaped the history of the United States and continues to shape the culture Americans live in today. Without the structure that the Native Americans built, the United States that most love and live in today would not exist.

Nah.....

11 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

While I completely agree with what you're saying, it does not take into account the fact that corporations and businesses large and small need illegal immigrants for labor, and without them the US would not be able to function, with the current immigration system. 

Illegal immigrant population is about 20 million and about 10-12 million are working.  There are about 170 million workers in the USA so it's less than 10% of the work force. 

 

Would this hurt?  yes, but it's wouldn't stop the US from functioning.  Actually I think allot of people that faded out of the job market would come back in.

I know several people that took early retirement not because they wanted too, but because they couldn't find a job. Help wanted signs everywhere but in reality nobody is hiring older folks. 

 

This all comes back to what you said earlier the immigration system in the USA needs to overhauled. 

however, here is where we will most likely disagree. The US immigration system needs to consider what's best for the US and it's citizens before deciding how to restructure the system to keep both the immigrant and the US safe. 

 

16 hours ago, transam said:

Yes, a lot has happened since then, if now, the Native Indians perhaps would still have a country.......🤫

 

They do have a country. It's called India.