3 minutes ago, SunnyinBangrak said:

You do come out with some howlers Alan. How many of these 18.4 year EVs are on the roads? Oh, so its pure guesswork. 

There are many many 50, 60, 70 or more year old cars still on the road. Can we imagine how many Nissan Leafs will be on the road in 50 years?🤣

Why don't you read the article before making your empty claims. What they have done is look at how much mileage the samplled cars have accumulated and then determine how many  year it would take an average car to acquire that much mileage.

What does " many many 50, 60, 70 or more year old cars still on the road." actually signify in terms of percentage? It's meaningless.

As for guesswork, your claim that an "EV's lifespan is very short" is based on what?

I can't read the whole article because you need to subscribe.

But Trump was inspired by his recent visit to Japan.

 

https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/trumps-surprise-answer-to-vehicle-affordability-cute-tiny-cars-b6b482d1

 

After a recent trip to Japan to talk about trade and economic investments, President Trump returned with a rather surprising takeaway: a love for Japan’s pint-size vehicles. 

2 minutes ago, Alan Zweibel said:

Why don't you read the article before making your empty claims. What they have done is look at how much mileage the samplled cars have accumulated and then determine how many  year it would take an average car to acquire that much mileage.

What does " many many 50, 60, 70 or more year old cars still on the road." actually signify in terms of percentage? It's meaningless.

As for guesswork, your claim that an "EV's lifespan is very short" is based on what?

Did they factor in how much the EV is going to be worth relative to how much a new battery and fitting is?

 

If after 10 years your battery is toast, the new battery & installation is $12,000 and the car is worth $5,000 well thats the end if its lifespan. And batteries are not projected to last 20 years in fact from day 1 they start degrading. Really, Alan, please start thinking for yourself.

54 minutes ago, SunnyinBangrak said:

Did they factor in how much the EV is going to be worth relative to how much a new battery and fitting is?

 

If after 10 years your battery is toast, the new battery & installation is $12,000 and the car is worth $5,000 well thats the end if its lifespan. And batteries are not projected to last 20 years in fact from day 1 they start degrading. Really, Alan, please start thinking for yourself.

Maybe you shoul start improving the quality of your thinking. First you claim that EVs have short life span but offer no evidence. Then you claim that there are many many 50,60, and 70 year old ICE vehicles. Someone who was genuinely thinking would know that such a claim is meaningless without quantifying how many of those vehicles are still on the road compared to how many have since been junked. But not you.

s batteries get better and better the projection for their lifespan keeps on growing:

From AI Gemini: 

"Average Lifespan: Current EV batteries are designed to last between 15 and 20 years before they would need replacement.
Mileage: Most battery packs are expected to perform well for over 150,000 miles, with some high-durability chemistries, like Lithium-Iron-Phosphate (LFP) cells, aiming for 300,000 miles or more.
Degradation Rate: New research from 2024 data shows that EV batteries on average degrade at a rate of only 1.8% per year, a significant improvement from 2.3% in 2019. This slow rate suggests that after two decades, a battery could still retain over 64% of its original capacity, which is sufficient for most daily driving needs."

 

Already solid state batteries have been installed in some vehicles. And, or course, batteries keep on improving.

Their cost per kwh keeps on declining. Low enough so that in China on a purchase price basis EVs are competitive with ICE vehicles. And, of course, they're a lot cheaper to run.

 

10 hours ago, save the frogs said:

 

Sounds like the boss just gave an order and the departments of transportation and environment agreed to it. 

Deeds not words froggey especially with trump.

11 hours ago, save the frogs said:

 

Sounds like the boss just gave an order and the departments of transportation and environment agreed to it. 

He gave an order to the departments of transportation and environment to build cars?

Be pretty cool to have 4 cyl diesel trucks available in the US.

4 hours ago, SunnyinBangrak said:

You do come out with some howlers Alan. How many of these 18.4 year EVs are on the roads? Oh, so its pure guesswork. 

There are many many 50, 60, 70 or more year old cars still on the road. Can we imagine how many Nissan Leafs will be on the road in 50 years?🤣

So true Sunny, these electric cars are a throwaway, not worth replacing their expensive battery. And their electronics will be obsolete. You will not see outdated electric cars on the road after even twenty years. 

What's wrong with small, inexpensive cars.  I drive one an it's fine.  Roughly the equivalent of 55 miles / gal.  Ge's me from point A to point B.  Cost me the equivalent of about $10K USD.
Personally I puke at the idea of spending $80K for a freaking vehicle.  That's about how much my home in the US cost, well, back when homes were affordable.  Now the banks and politicians are out to make debt slaves of the morons who continue to live in the West.  Illegal immigrants?  They can have the West.  They're welcome to it.

2 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

Be pretty cool to have 4 cyl diesel trucks available in the US.

They were banned before?

6 hours ago, josephbloggs said:

They were banned before?

Pretty sure, I know you can't find them. 

8 hours ago, Keep Right said:

So true Sunny, these electric cars are a throwaway, not worth replacing their expensive battery. And their electronics will be obsolete. You will not see outdated electric cars on the road after even twenty years. 

They literally are. Batteries are degraded to the point of uselessness within a decade and the cost to replace it is multiples of what the vehicle is worth, so off to the junkyard.

What would be clever is if someone can invent an ICE that fits into an EV when the battery is shagged. Or mount a deisel generator on the roof so it can still run🤣

I think there are two reasons tiny cars don't catch on here.  First, how comfortable are you with a brodozer pickup truck behind you?  Do these cars pass the safety requirements and crash tests?  Second, most people drive some distances and they aren't very good on highways.

 

I remember looking at the Smart Car that Mercedes worked with and sold at some of their dealerships.  Hey, yeah I'm a yank and like larger cars.  RIde comfort safety all factor.  That smart car the drivers seat was about 6 inches in front of the back bumper.  Not sure I like the idea of a large truck in traffic with it's grill a foot behind my head.

 

Then I saw it only got 36 MPG versus sa hybrid Camry which was better and a real car.   

 

I'm not an ICE vs EV guy.  Both technologies have their pluses and minuses.  But I know I want a large enough vehicle to ride well and protect me in a crash.  

 

 

18 hours ago, SunnyinBangrak said:

Give me an Audi A2 over any EV on the market anyday. Loads of A2's still on the road, lets see how many 20 year EVs are still on the road shall we🤣

 

Attrition of RHD A2s has been pretty horrific. Lots of gearbox and electrical issues. While the aluminum spaceframe construction means less rust (though that in itself means any knock will condemn the car, as no one can fix it anymore).

 

If you analyse for the base A2 model, there has been a 84% attrition rate since 2006; the Mercedes A-Class is worse, being all but extinct, but like the A2, this was also a ridiculously complicated car. On the other hand, for 2001-2006 VW Polos, more than half are still on the oad. A far better small car. If you dig into MOT pass rates, the Audi A2 isn't too bad, @ 55% (cheapie Polo is 47%); what condemns these Audis is not really failure of safety or emissions related items, but due to the high cost of ownership. They were unreliable, costly to maintain. Replacing the clutch, for instance, using Audi parts, would be more than what the car is worth. After 2002, Audi switches to cheap pressed control arms which just rot through. The packaging of the battery under a fake floor leads to nighmare leakage problems. Again, being an aluminium construction leads in itself to electrical issues. The grounds are set to the body, but the bolts etc are steel, setting up galvanic corrosion. A 3-cylinder engine is naturally unbalanced, so its not a relaxing drive. That fancy construction also meant higher insurance than its peers.

 

I had a TDI Sport for a while with 40k miles. Not a month went past without something breaking. Couldn't wait to get rid of it. Had a few other Audis along the way. they all go the same way; hit a certain age and self destruct. POS car for non-car guy badge snobs. RW MPG on a diesel is 50mpImpg, if you had the 1.6, its more like mid-30s. The 1.2 was a gutless wonder. Americans would hate it. The 1.6 FSI has a special place in hell.

 

The Honda Jazz (knownas Fitta in some markets, vulgar Swedish name for female genetalia) is a better proposition id you like a 20 year old Minivan look.

 

 

I've got a nice big older model V8 car in the garage back in the US. Probably get 20mpg on the highway. I love it. But here in thailand I put 1000 baht diesel in my 4 cyl diesel and get way more milage. In Ca the price of gas is still around $5./gal

 

Having a Toyota Hilux, Isuzu or Suzuki available in the US would be great. Monster pickups aren't really necessary.

13 hours ago, Alan Zweibel said:

Why don't you read the article before making your empty claims. What they have done is look at how much mileage the samplled cars have accumulated and then determine how many  year it would take an average car to acquire that much mileage.

What does " many many 50, 60, 70 or more year old cars still on the road." actually signify in terms of percentage? It's meaningless.

As for guesswork, your claim that an "EV's lifespan is very short" is based on what?

 

Based on prejudice, aka, lick a finger and stick it in the air. 

 

When the Toyota Prius first appeared, Parkers, the Used Car value bible, had to model out the depreciation rate. They asked Toyota how long was the hybrid battery warrantied for. Toyota put a 10 year, 150k warranty on them, and, back then, a £5000 plus labour replacement. Labour to replace, compared to a short block installation, was relatively low. Parker took a view that at 10 years old, the Prius would be effectively worthless, and no one would be spending £5000 on them. So depreciation rates were estimated based on that assumption. 

 

As it proved, those Prius batteries actually lasted a lot longer than what Toyota thought, and when these cars got old, the aftermarket stepped in with very imaginative solutions, involving swapping out reclaimed cells, to keep elderly Priuses with 500k on the clock still running.

 

ICE engines fail regularly in service. When Mazda launched the Renesis engined RX8, they supplied a small bottle of oil with the spare wheel. Rotaries use oil, and as an owner, you are supposed to check and top up the oil every other fuel stop. The Renesis had better rotor tips than previous Wankel engines, but ultimately it was still garbage, with poor fuel consumption and emissions. But Mazda tried to push it onto the fleet market, and a sporty number for those reps. Guess what, the reps decided it wasn't their job to keep the pil topped up. A saw a lease car in getting a new short engine under warranty; the driver ran it for 3 months with an oil light showing. The rotor looked like someone had thrown bearings into it. Luckily a brand new Renesis is only £800 from Mazda; a new Thai built Mitsubishi V6 diesel is more like £13k (albeit long engine).

 

More recent engine designs, peak ICE I suppose, are showing catastropic reliability, due to shifting patterns of ownership. I would not touch a wetbelt engine (cambelt engines where the belts are in an oil bath to promote efficiency). These are fitted to cars where most of the first owners are on a lease, sticking to manufacture oil changes. But to drive the economics of leasing, the service intervals (oil change) is being extended out to 20k miles. New oils aren't doing well with these new belts. The oil softens and breaks up the belt, leading to clogging of the oil strainer, leading to oil starvation. Belt intervals are typically 40-50k miles, but these cars are typically off lease by then, and onto the used market, where the next owner is upgrading from a 10-20 year old car. But wet belt change isn't £200-300 to change like a normal belt, its more like £1000+ up, so sticker shock. And then you have the Ingeniums; they can develop timing chain stretch pretty quick, but you need to get the gearbox off to change; the chain is at the back of the engine!.

 

EVs will change the nature of the workshop. People are going to find skills obsolete. People don't decoke engines nor reset valve clearances anymore. There are now EV tuners such as Rich Rebuilds.

 

When ICE engines go wrong its usually something like coolant failure (HGF) or oil starvation (big end, rings). With EV, the major issue is grounds. Corroded connectors lead to garabade running. Couple that with incompetant technicians who's problem solving skills are limited. They've been working on petrol and diesels since college, then did the 4-6 week conversion course on EVs. Give it time, and you will see a decent cohort of EV mechanics with the 10-15 years of working on them.

 

Some typical scenarios. 10 year old abused BMW i3; typical of one of the "better" early EVs. The batteries are fine. The issue is the 3 cylinder range extender motor, and no one bothering to service it

 

 

 

 

Fisker. A typical future scenario; an orphan car, with zero manufacturer support (Fisker used an unwanted Chinese design, then went bankrupt). This is a pretty likely scenario, given we are back to the early days of the car, when there were a kazillion different car brands.

 

 

 

Guess what, its just mechanics. Things will be fine.

 

Fixing a cheap hybrid Cadillac

 

 

10 hours ago, Keep Right said:

So true Sunny, these electric cars are a throwaway, not worth replacing their expensive battery. And their electronics will be obsolete. You will not see outdated electric cars on the road after even twenty years. 

 

 But you'll be dead by then, so why does it matter to you?

 

On average, gasoline cars in the US make it to 13 years, 150,000. Then the subframes fail, the bonded bushes go out, the $2000 clutch and flywheel wear out. The car rots away.

 

Cars have been throw away since year dot. Thats why you have scrapyards full of them. Those Ford Cortinas would barely get to 5 years before the front fenders gave out. My old man told me his 1956 Ford Prefect needed a new engine at 30k miles.

On 12/14/2025 at 7:32 AM, save the frogs said:

EU and Japan have tiny cars, right?

 

How in hell will Orange Don fit in a micro car?

1 hour ago, Grumpy one said:

How in hell will Orange Don fit in a micro car?

In the back with front seats removed.

1 hour ago, Grumpy one said:

How in hell will Orange Don fit in a micro car?

Well, given that there's documentary evidence of teams of clowns emerging from a tiny car, I bet this one could accommodate Trump and his cabinet.

 

On 12/13/2025 at 7:32 PM, save the frogs said:

EU and Japan have tiny cars, right?

 

I disagree with this idea because of Trump. 

Just now, nick supreme said:

I disagree with this idea because of Trump. 

 

If it was Kamala, you'd be on board? 

 

1 minute ago, save the frogs said:

 

If it was Kamala, you'd be on board? 

 

Absolutely, I wholeheartedly support strong women and admire their strength.