Are Farangs Who Marriages Failed Lucky?

[Dustoff]

Posted by Buffcoat:

Well the level of vitriol has certainly increased and the possibility of

reasoned discussion has faded away since too many posters on here are

certain that their own views are absolutely correct and apply to everyone

without exception in all situations.

Reminds me of the late 70's when the feminist movement was aggresively

attacking existing institutions such as marriage.

One of their memorable posters was a picture of a model bride and groom on a

wedding cake under the slogan...The union of a Wage slave and a Sex slave

(neatly putting the boot into capitalism as well).

These were the same people who proclaimed that all penetrative sex between

males and females was rape, as women on a global basis were forced into

sexual relations with men through financial or social pressures....sorry

ladies but you are just fooling yourselves if you think you made a real

choice to get into bed with that man/rapist.

Any attempt to talk to them about their views was met with the same, I am

right and you are wrong response, which was justified in essence by...I am

right because I say I am.

Personally I feel that there is no point discussing anything with

individuals who adopt this absolute position whatever the subject they get

excited about, it just gives them an excuse to make a lot of noise and

demonstrate that a closed mind and ignorance are constant companions.

An excellent post.

While early feminism in the States actually did initiate positive changes in male/female relationships, the most vehement of male-hating feminists eventually tried to recant but it was too late - they had already destroyed their own credibility and disappeared into the dust of sad history.

"My prejudicail position is right and my proof is my own opinion" just doesn't work any more and so-called research to prove a bias is not true research but simple bias.

Thank you for sharing your wisdom but, umm, how old is your wife/girlfriend?

[JohnnyThai]

In the West, it is estimated that between 10-20% of children are raised unknowingly by a man who is not their real father. The reason is quite simple. Women seek the best provider as a husband to raise her children, but she also seeks who she deems as the most superior man to mate with because she wants his good genes. From the evolutionary perspective, the most ideal scenario for a women is to have a rich, faithful husband who will raise and care for a son of another man with superior genes (attractive, young, strong) who is not her husband.

There have studies done in that West which have showed that women are more likely to cheat on their husbands with another man during the time in which they're fertile and capable of reproduction. Women of course cannot know when this moment is, but their bodies do after three million years of evolving. If a man spends the entire day with his wife and makes love to her, his body creates less sperm than if he had been away all day. The reason is again simple, if he was away, then there was a chance that another man had mated with his wife. By creating more sperm, his sperm would have a better chance of impregnating the women. Again, this a subconscious part of our nature left over from evolution.

There has been much debate on this forum of whether or not an eight-teen year old women can love a sixty year old man as a sexual partner. Two people enter relationships to exploit the other person. Men seek sex and women seek a provider for herself and her children. The physical pleasure of sex has never been important when considering a husband. If women picked fathers based on looks, they would end up raising the child by themselves. An unattractive thirty year old male with bad skin is not much different than an unattractive sixty year old male in the eyes of an eight-teen year old women. Her biggest consideration would be whether or not the older man will leave her enough money after his death to care for.

Of course, looking at human relationships from a dry scientific perspective as this can be off putting to people. Certainly, our minds have evolved and nature and nuture both play a role in our mate selection, but we still cannot escape our nature. Eight-teen year old women are not sexually attracted to sixty year old men and never will. This is not opinion, but science.

I think it is very likely that many of the women who enter these relationships are very happy, the reason being what I have described above, they have a great provider and they then seek relationships with other men on the side. The truth will never be known entirely. It seems very unlikely that these women will admit to adultery in a survey and the living environment makes it almost 100% impossible that their foreign husbands will know their whereabouts at all times.

[ColPyat]

The report does not break down the ethnicity of partners for one of three main reasons (I assume.)

1/Data not available.

2/Data available but was not significant.

3/Data available and significant but withdrawn from the analysis.

The reason is, as far as i know, that certain racial anti discrimination laws in the UK make it impossible to break the numbers down along ethnic groups in such statistics.

The problem though is, that for this particular discussion/debate the incomplete data makes this statistic useless, unfortunately, and leaves us with the same open questions (unacknowledged by some here).

[Dupont]

It's time to calm down, gents. If you can't be civil to each other then it's better to be quiet.

Everything winds down, runs it course and stops. threads that were once vigorous, lopsided, young old relationships that are just marking time until they collapse. Perhaps its best to put it to bed, at least anyone reading the thread knows not everyone is here for the largest number of young girls in the shortest possible time at the cheapest rate. Some of us see them as people rather than to be discussed as if they were cattle, appraised, judged and labelled. Only on this thread can a man prove how much he loves one sort of woman by describing his hatred for another, western woman. Never in the history of threads can so many men have described women in the most unflattering sexist terms as western women have been described and never once felt even the tiniest bit uncomfortable with their own, balding, aging, fat and flabby bodies. The best of their lives past they fasten like leeches on the strength of the young. It's time to call it quits, they are lost souls beyond any damascean epiphany.

Just one last point.............when you are are on your own and your teelak has left you for a younger, better man or a richer man, for that is all you really offer. Don't come bleating for support. You will be drowned in a chorus of "We told you so"

I love the way you people bandy your PC credentials around, condem others for stereotyping, then show true double standards with stereotypes of your own as above.

What do you on the left call the sterotypes you use? Anti-stereotypes, positive sterotyping, empowering sterotyping etc.

You really are to ones crying in the wilderness.

Back on Topic, you and people like Canadiangirl (shouldn't it be canadianwoman) come on this thread to lambast anybody that feels happy with their relationship here in Thailand... with the exception of gay men with younger boys obviously as that isn't PC. The same Canadiangirl who set up a post on how to get a boyfriend. Want us to mark you as a fat old sex tourist when you find your Thai boyfriend? Want us to call him a poor, uneducated, slave to western women sex tourists? No, then don't tar all of us and our wives as such then.

I did ask what all the unhappy posters on here do with their lives that is so fantastic and better than sex, love and a happy life etc. One reply only and that was "chocolate". Says more about you than us!

Just accept the staus quo, it happens. You'll always be outraged about people having something you feel they shouldn't have if it's a white man. And we will always feel sorry for anybody that spends their time yah boo sucking others.

Lots of knocking on this thread again of Thailand, Thai People falangs etc. Really wonder what some people come here for.

Try lightening up a bit, and stay away from the red light districts if it offends you so much.

Incidentally Doh-pont what applies to mis matched hetero couples applies to similarly mismatched Gay couples. Anyone with half a brain knows that. Sadly you are lacking the wherewithal to make that judgement.

Certainly made a play for the intelectual high ground their didn't you!!!

As with all you PC mudslingers though, you missed and we saw you miss, and you always will miss as you have nothing positive to bring to any thread.

Me! I am still very happy with my marriage. Still happy with Thailand, and still happy I don't have the miserable lot that you and CG seem to have.

What is it exactly that you have and do that makes you superior? Try and forumlate a sentence that is positive in this respect, not along the lines of " I am happy I am not a sexpat etc.." Show us what you intelectuals do in life that makes you so superior. So superior that anybody you see with a more attractive partner than you have, has to be a looser and have a hard fall coming to him.

Go on, show us just what you have in life, maybe we will be converts and start seeking out similar.

BTW why are you on this thread? You had a failed marriage or are you just trolling? I'm on here as its relevant to me, I feel lucky that my first marriage failed and that I am in my current one. TOTALLY OT. MY OPINION and nothing I have to prove or disprove to the likes of you.

Oh, brave boy by the way

Edited August 29, 2007 by Dupont

[WaiWai]

My goodness, speaking of angry ? !

Back on Topic, you and people like Canadiangirl (shouldn't it be canadianwoman) come on this thread to lambast anybody that feels happy with their relationship here in Thailand... with the exception of gay men with younger boys obviously as that isn't PC.

Where was that exception made ? Clearly the age & income disparity issues can apply equally to gay men (or women, for that matter).

The same Canadiangirl who set up a post on how to get a boyfriend. Want us to mark you as a fat old sex tourist when you find your Thai boyfriend? Want us to call him a poor, uneducated, slave to western women sex tourists? No, then don't tar all of us and our wives as such then.

This would only apply if she were ... um ... an old fat sex tourist with a markedly younger, poor, uneducated boyfriend (or girlfriend) wouldn't it ?

I did ask what all the unhappy posters on here do with their lives that is so fantastic and better than sex, love and a happy life etc. One reply only and that was "chocolate". Says more about you than us!

Obviously, everyone thinks love & a happy life are very important. Not sure what your point is ?

Just accept the staus quo, it happens. You'll always be outraged about people having something you feel they shouldn't have if it's a white man. And we will always feel sorry for anybody that spends their time yah boo sucking others.

How would this topic apply only to white men ?

Try lightening up a bit, and stay away from the red light districts if it offends you so much.

I thought we were discussing marriage, not the "relationships" that occur in the red light districts .

Edited August 29, 2007 by WaiWai

[Dustoff]

as many of you know, i studied evolutionary biology for over ten years at the university level.

genes are passed onto each generation. in many culture and society, it is the old men who have the most women and wifes and who deflower the most women. the young men work and are one day in this position. however, most men were forced to be celibate and never touched a women. the old men took all of the young girls at 10 years old and wouldn't let anyone touch them.

it is in women's genes to thus crave these older men. at a subconscious level, women are more sexually aroused by a 60 year old man than a 20 year old man, however, it is the work of fashion, advertising, and the last fifty years which has attempted to change this - of course, these genes have never changed.

Congrats on your studies, you must have been very relieved when they finally graduated you. How is the old Creationist University of Alabama? You are of course right about young girls subconciously craving the sex and seed of ancient men and I wish you all success in your attempt to use that as a defence at your upcoming trial. Once again you have brought enlightenment where non existed before and for that I salute you. Not since the hey day of Goebbels have so many indisputable facts been laid before an eager audience with such relish. Why if I close my eyes I can almost see you up close as I imagine you, dripping your seed in the shadow of your huge, aged belly on some love struck virgin 17 year old. You pause and breathe heavily, the zimmer frame gives a last shudder and you are upon her with all the grace of a water balloon. My God what a man you are sir! I can see why all the young ladies clamour for you. Of course when a girl rejects you and turns away from you as she would any old man, how wily of you to read not her conscious mind but her subconcious one. Why I have noticed the same thing many times. Either that or they have revealed themselves as Lesbians upon my approach. We are birds of a feather sir!.....I look forward to many despoilings and blood lettings in future, why we must do all we can as to liberate and set free the poor tortured girls subconcious minds. Its obvious to me now that both Kat and Cg are fighting the strong urge to clutch you to their breast and make mad passionate seed-hungry love to you.

Once again, you are off the charts and I wonder how the moderators allow you to rave/rage on with such disgusting posts that serve only to demean the intent of the ThaiVisa forums.

If this, any many other of your posts do not violate the rules of these forums, I don't know what does any more.

Flame!

[WaiWai]

I thought that was pretty funny, myself . It certainly makes more sense than bangkoksing"s post .

[ratchabuild]

It's time to calm down, gents. If you can't be civil to each other then it's better to be quiet.

Everything winds down, runs it course and stops. threads that were once vigorous, lopsided, young old relationships that are just marking time until they collapse. Perhaps its best to put it to bed, at least anyone reading the thread knows not everyone is here for the largest number of young girls in the shortest possible time at the cheapest rate. Some of us see them as people rather than to be discussed as if they were cattle, appraised, judged and labelled. Only on this thread can a man prove how much he loves one sort of woman by describing his hatred for another, western woman. Never in the history of threads can so many men have described women in the most unflattering sexist terms as western women have been described and never once felt even the tiniest bit uncomfortable with their own, balding, aging, fat and flabby bodies. The best of their lives past they fasten like leeches on the strength of the young. It's time to call it quits, they are lost souls beyond any damascean epiphany.

Just one last point.............when you are are on your own and your teelak has left you for a younger, better man or a richer man, for that is all you really offer. Don't come bleating for support. You will be drowned in a chorus of "We told you so"

I love the way you people bandy your PC credentials around, condem others for stereotyping, then show true double standards with stereotypes of your own as above.

What do you on the left call the sterotypes you use? Anti-stereotypes, positive sterotyping, empowering sterotyping etc.

You really are to ones crying in the wilderness.

Back on Topic, you and people like Canadiangirl (shouldn't it be canadianwoman) come on this thread to lambast anybody that feels happy with their relationship here in Thailand... with the exception of gay men with younger boys obviously as that isn't PC. The same Canadiangirl who set up a post on how to get a boyfriend. Want us to mark you as a fat old sex tourist when you find your Thai boyfriend? Want us to call him a poor, uneducated, slave to western women sex tourists? No, then don't tar all of us and our wives as such then.

I did ask what all the unhappy posters on here do with their lives that is so fantastic and better than sex, love and a happy life etc. One reply only and that was "chocolate". Says more about you than us!

Just accept the staus quo, it happens. You'll always be outraged about people having something you feel they shouldn't have if it's a white man. And we will always feel sorry for anybody that spends their time yah boo sucking others.

Lots of knocking on this thread again of Thailand, Thai People falangs etc. Really wonder what some people come here for.

Try lightening up a bit, and stay away from the red light districts if it offends you so much.

Incidentally Doh-pont what applies to mis matched hetero couples applies to similarly mismatched Gay couples. Anyone with half a brain knows that. Sadly you are lacking the wherewithal to make that judgement.

Certainly made a play for the intelectual high ground their didn't you!!!

As with all you PC mudslingers though, you missed and we saw you miss, and you always will miss as you have nothing positive to bring to any thread.

Me! I am still very happy with my marriage. Still happy with Thailand, and still happy I don't have the miserable lot that you and CG seem to have.

What is it exactly that you have and do that makes you superior? Try and forumlate a sentence that is positive in this respect, not along the lines of " I am happy I am not a sexpat etc.." Show us what you intelectuals do in life that makes you so superior. So superior that anybody you see with a more attractive partner than you have, has to be a looser and have a hard fall coming to him.

Go on, show us just what you have in life, maybe we will be converts and start seeking out similar.

BTW why are you on this thread? You had a failed marriage or are you just trolling? I'm on here as its relevant to me, I feel lucky that my first marriage failed and that I am in my current one. TOTALLY OT. MY OPINION and nothing I have to prove or disprove to the likes of you.

Oh, brave boy by the way

Well so far, after a posting about how many falangs in mis matched relationships really understand the dynamics of the relationship I have been labelled PC, anti-white man, a Follower of Andre Dworkin (No I dont get that one at all but apparently Dustoff believes it), raped by an old man, desperate for a young girl, jealous of old men, fit and young and agist, unhappy and with an empty life. When I am accused of being AlQuaeda I will have the full set. Whats so funny in all of this is that I am one of the oldest contributors to the debate and am grossly overweight too. I am completely un PC as friends will testify and adore Andrea dworkin (OK so I lied about that one...I feel sorry for Dustoff) The only difference between me and lots of the contributors is that I wont exploit a young woman for my short term gratification and thats the real crime in their eyes...daring to talk about it. Whilst there's a conspiracy of silence the assorted rag bag of ne'er do wells, misfits, low lifes and low brows who make up Dustoffs happy band will continue to shout down any attempt to open up their seedy little world.

[Gravelrash]

They say misery loves company. I wonder at the fanatics of all faiths trying to convert others, raving feminazis (and worse their male apologists) all living some meaningless existence whereas their only joy is to pry into the lives of others. If they can manage to infuse some guilt or raise some ire then they can delight in pulling others down to their level.

There will be those that rise to the bait, as they probably do harbour guilts aor insecurities, others will simply shrug it off.

Is there a financial link between older men and younger women, dur, of course. Money equals power, and power is attractive to those without it, always has been, gets back to the primal urges another poster mentioned. And also to the western women to be found in the Caribean or Africa, do as they wish if they don't harm others, who cares. I wonder why the term "toy boy" has come into popular usage, where there is smoke...

If a 60 yo person has a 20 yo spouse I personally couldn't care less. If they can actually manage to hang onto them then that would be a feat.

Western women haven't interested me since my early 20s after my first visit to Asia, could I still find a women back home? I don't know as it hasn't been an issue or something I would consider anyway. I don't think having a failed marraige can for the most part be viewed as lucky, little to rejoice there and generally all stakeholders hurt in varying degrees. If the relationship at home works then great, if not and people end up in Thailand and find happiness again then why begrudge then that? My suspicion is that those that want to lash out simply haven't found their own happiness, which brings us back to misery loving company.

[Austhaied]

It's time to calm down, gents. If you can't be civil to each other then it's better to be quiet.

Everything winds down, runs it course and stops. threads that were once vigorous, lopsided, young old relationships that are just marking time until they collapse. Perhaps its best to put it to bed, at least anyone reading the thread knows not everyone is here for the largest number of young girls in the shortest possible time at the cheapest rate. Some of us see them as people rather than to be discussed as if they were cattle, appraised, judged and labelled. Only on this thread can a man prove how much he loves one sort of woman by describing his hatred for another, western woman. Never in the history of threads can so many men have described women in the most unflattering sexist terms as western women have been described and never once felt even the tiniest bit uncomfortable with their own, balding, aging, fat and flabby bodies. The best of their lives past they fasten like leeches on the strength of the young. It's time to call it quits, they are lost souls beyond any damascean epiphany.

Just one last point.............when you are are on your own and your teelak has left you for a younger, better man or a richer man, for that is all you really offer. Don't come bleating for support. You will be drowned in a chorus of "We told you so"

I love the way you people bandy your PC credentials around, condem others for stereotyping, then show true double standards with stereotypes of your own as above.

What do you on the left call the sterotypes you use? Anti-stereotypes, positive sterotyping, empowering sterotyping etc.

You really are to ones crying in the wilderness.

Back on Topic, you and people like Canadiangirl (shouldn't it be canadianwoman) come on this thread to lambast anybody that feels happy with their relationship here in Thailand... with the exception of gay men with younger boys obviously as that isn't PC. The same Canadiangirl who set up a post on how to get a boyfriend. Want us to mark you as a fat old sex tourist when you find your Thai boyfriend? Want us to call him a poor, uneducated, slave to western women sex tourists? No, then don't tar all of us and our wives as such then.

I did ask what all the unhappy posters on here do with their lives that is so fantastic and better than sex, love and a happy life etc. One reply only and that was "chocolate". Says more about you than us!

Just accept the staus quo, it happens. You'll always be outraged about people having something you feel they shouldn't have if it's a white man. And we will always feel sorry for anybody that spends their time yah boo sucking others.

Lots of knocking on this thread again of Thailand, Thai People falangs etc. Really wonder what some people come here for.

Try lightening up a bit, and stay away from the red light districts if it offends you so much.

Incidentally Doh-pont what applies to mis matched hetero couples applies to similarly mismatched Gay couples. Anyone with half a brain knows that. Sadly you are lacking the wherewithal to make that judgement.

Certainly made a play for the intelectual high ground their didn't you!!!

As with all you PC mudslingers though, you missed and we saw you miss, and you always will miss as you have nothing positive to bring to any thread.

Me! I am still very happy with my marriage. Still happy with Thailand, and still happy I don't have the miserable lot that you and CG seem to have.

What is it exactly that you have and do that makes you superior? Try and forumlate a sentence that is positive in this respect, not along the lines of " I am happy I am not a sexpat etc.." Show us what you intelectuals do in life that makes you so superior. So superior that anybody you see with a more attractive partner than you have, has to be a looser and have a hard fall coming to him.

Go on, show us just what you have in life, maybe we will be converts and start seeking out similar.

BTW why are you on this thread? You had a failed marriage or are you just trolling? I'm on here as its relevant to me, I feel lucky that my first marriage failed and that I am in my current one. TOTALLY OT. MY OPINION and nothing I have to prove or disprove to the likes of you.

Oh, brave boy by the way

Well so far, after a posting about how many falangs in mis matched relationships really understand the dynamics of the relationship I have been labelled PC, anti-white man, a Follower of Andre Dworkin (No I dont get that one at all but apparently Dustoff believes it), raped by an old man, desperate for a young girl, jealous of old men, fit and young and agist, unhappy and with an empty life. When I am accused of being AlQuaeda I will have the full set. Whats so funny in all of this is that I am one of the oldest contributors to the debate and am grossly overweight too. I am completely un PC as friends will testify and adore Andrea dworkin (OK so I lied about that one...I feel sorry for Dustoff) The only difference between me and lots of the contributors is that I wont exploit a young woman for my short term gratification and thats the real crime in their eyes...daring to talk about it. Whilst there's a conspiracy of silence the assorted rag bag of ne'er do wells, misfits, low lifes and low brows who make up Dustoffs happy band will continue to shout down any attempt to open up their seedy little world.

You are a dick. Plain and simple.

I happen to know Dustoff and his lovely wife and you would be shocked (because of your dick status) to know that they are one of the happiest couples i have ever seen. They both compliment each other to a tee. They are both very lucky to have each other.

Now tell me, whats so negative about that ?

Seedy little world ??? You really haven't a <deleted> clue..

[true blue]

just thought i add my pennys worth interesting reading on todays daily mail website www.dailymail.co.uk/ (older men make perfect partners for having babies )suppose the ageist gang of four will scoff at it with some of there usual baloney but ithink the letter from the lady in america puts it in to perspective

[WaiWai]

just thought i add my pennys worth interesting reading on todays daily mail website www.dailymail.co.uk/ (older men make perfect partners for having babies )suppose the ageist gang of four will scoff at it with some of there usual baloney but ithink the letter from the lady in america puts it in to perspective

Yes, about 4 - 6 years older .

August 29, 2007, Times UK :

Mark Henderson, Science Editor

Men with an eye for younger ladies, and women who prefer a more mature man, are not just obeying cultural stereotypes: both have evolved to appreciate an age gap when it comes to sex and marriage, scientists have found.

Both men and women have more children when the father is a few years older than the mother, according to research suggesting that natural selection has driven each gender’s age preferences in mutually compatible ways.

Men are most reproductively successful with a partner who is six years younger than they are, while women have most children if they choose a father who is four years older, a study in Austria has shown.

One of Britain’s most successful and famously fertile marriages falls squarely in the middle of this age range. The Queen, 81, is four years and ten months younger than the Duke of Edinburgh, and they have four children – more than double the British average.

Couples in which the man is much older, however, do not have an advantage. Women whose partners are ten years older have on average the same number of children as those with spouses five years younger.

The results offer the strongest evidence yet that the combination of an older man and a younger women has evolved to become the norm for heterosexual couples across the vast majority of human cultures that have been studied because it carries a reproductive advantage.

In England and Wales, 26 per cent of marriages involve a younger man, against 48 per cent where the man is between a day and five years older, and 26 per cent where he is six or more years older. Other societies show similar trends, and while the size of average age gaps often differ, the older-male norm does not. The global average is for men to prefer a partner who is 2.66 years younger than them, and for women to prefer a partner who is 3.42 years older.

Similar patterns have been observed in marriage records all over the world. This cultural uniformity has long led scientists to suspect that evolution is involved, and that age differences have historically promoted the birth and survival of more children. The usual explanation given is that men have an in-built preference for partners who are visibly fertile, which is enhanced by youth, while women seek resources and status, which tend to increase with a man’s age.

While such ideas make theoretical sense, however, research had not previously established any reproductive advantage in the real world for men who choose younger wives and girlfriends or for women who take older mates.

The new study by Martin Fieder and Susanne Huber, of the University of Vienna, has found such evidence for the first time, by examining a database of more than 10,000 Swedish men and women. All the participants had had children, and had kept the same partner from the birth of the first child to the birth of the last one. Details of the research are published in the journal Biology Letters.

For men, the average number of children increased as the age of their partners decreased, peaking at an age gap of 5.92 years, before declining again with larger differences. There was a similar finding for women. The average number of children rose as their partners grew older than them, peaking at a gap of 3.97 years before declining again. The differing figures for men and women are possible because the sample does not include both partners from each relationship.

When women were older than their partners, the curve was sharper still: the number of children declined steeply with each extra year of age difference. Much of this is probably attributable to the way in which female fertility declines at a much earlier age. A woman ten years older than her partner is likely to be starting a family when her fertility is waning, which will not always apply to a much older man.

The results show a clear gain in evolutionary “fitness”, the birth of extra children, when men are a few years older than women. The scientists said: “These findings may account for the phenomenon that whereas men typically prefer and mate with women younger than themselves, women usually desire and mate with men older than them, We conclude that the age preference for the partner increases individual fitness of both men and women, and may thus be an evolutionarily acquired trait.”

The study also found that when people have children first with one partner and then with another, the second partner tends to be younger than the first for both men and women. This may reflect a preference for younger partners to compensate for one’s own declining fertility, the scientists suggested.

Edited August 29, 2007 by WaiWai

[ratchabuild]

just thought i add my pennys worth interesting reading on todays daily mail website www.dailymail.co.uk/ (older men make perfect partners for having babies )suppose the ageist gang of four will scoff at it with some of there usual baloney but ithink the letter from the lady in america puts it in to perspective

Yes, about 4 - 6 years older .

August 29, 2007, Times UK :

Mark Henderson, Science Editor

Men with an eye for younger ladies, and women who prefer a more mature man, are not just obeying cultural stereotypes: both have evolved to appreciate an age gap when it comes to sex and marriage, scientists have found.

Both men and women have more children when the father is a few years older than the mother, according to research suggesting that natural selection has driven each gender’s age preferences in mutually compatible ways.

Men are most reproductively successful with a partner who is six years younger than they are, while women have most children if they choose a father who is four years older, a study in Austria has shown.

One of Britain’s most successful and famously fertile marriages falls squarely in the middle of this age range. The Queen, 81, is four years and ten months younger than the Duke of Edinburgh, and they have four children – more than double the British average.

Couples in which the man is much older, however, do not have an advantage. Women whose partners are ten years older have on average the same number of children as those with spouses five years younger.

The results offer the strongest evidence yet that the combination of an older man and a younger women has evolved to become the norm for heterosexual couples across the vast majority of human cultures that have been studied because it carries a reproductive advantage.

In England and Wales, 26 per cent of marriages involve a younger man, against 48 per cent where the man is between a day and five years older, and 26 per cent where he is six or more years older. Other societies show similar trends, and while the size of average age gaps often differ, the older-male norm does not. The global average is for men to prefer a partner who is 2.66 years younger than them, and for women to prefer a partner who is 3.42 years older.

Similar patterns have been observed in marriage records all over the world. This cultural uniformity has long led scientists to suspect that evolution is involved, and that age differences have historically promoted the birth and survival of more children. The usual explanation given is that men have an in-built preference for partners who are visibly fertile, which is enhanced by youth, while women seek resources and status, which tend to increase with a man’s age.

While such ideas make theoretical sense, however, research had not previously established any reproductive advantage in the real world for men who choose younger wives and girlfriends or for women who take older mates.

The new study by Martin Fieder and Susanne Huber, of the University of Vienna, has found such evidence for the first time, by examining a database of more than 10,000 Swedish men and women. All the participants had had children, and had kept the same partner from the birth of the first child to the birth of the last one. Details of the research are published in the journal Biology Letters.

For men, the average number of children increased as the age of their partners decreased, peaking at an age gap of 5.92 years, before declining again with larger differences. There was a similar finding for women. The average number of children rose as their partners grew older than them, peaking at a gap of 3.97 years before declining again. The differing figures for men and women are possible because the sample does not include both partners from each relationship.

When women were older than their partners, the curve was sharper still: the number of children declined steeply with each extra year of age difference. Much of this is probably attributable to the way in which female fertility declines at a much earlier age. A woman ten years older than her partner is likely to be starting a family when her fertility is waning, which will not always apply to a much older man.

The results show a clear gain in evolutionary “fitness”, the birth of extra children, when men are a few years older than women. The scientists said: “These findings may account for the phenomenon that whereas men typically prefer and mate with women younger than themselves, women usually desire and mate with men older than them, We conclude that the age preference for the partner increases individual fitness of both men and women, and may thus be an evolutionarily acquired trait.”

The study also found that when people have children first with one partner and then with another, the second partner tends to be younger than the first for both men and women. This may reflect a preference for younger partners to compensate for one’s own declining fertility, the scientists suggested.

Thanks for the info.

[ratchabuild]

It's time to calm down, gents. If you can't be civil to each other then it's better to be quiet.

Everything winds down, runs it course and stops. threads that were once vigorous, lopsided, young old relationships that are just marking time until they collapse. Perhaps its best to put it to bed, at least anyone reading the thread knows not everyone is here for the largest number of young girls in the shortest possible time at the cheapest rate. Some of us see them as people rather than to be discussed as if they were cattle, appraised, judged and labelled. Only on this thread can a man prove how much he loves one sort of woman by describing his hatred for another, western woman. Never in the history of threads can so many men have described women in the most unflattering sexist terms as western women have been described and never once felt even the tiniest bit uncomfortable with their own, balding, aging, fat and flabby bodies. The best of their lives past they fasten like leeches on the strength of the young. It's time to call it quits, they are lost souls beyond any damascean epiphany.

Just one last point.............when you are are on your own and your teelak has left you for a younger, better man or a richer man, for that is all you really offer. Don't come bleating for support. You will be drowned in a chorus of "We told you so"

I love the way you people bandy your PC credentials around, condem others for stereotyping, then show true double standards with stereotypes of your own as above.

What do you on the left call the sterotypes you use? Anti-stereotypes, positive sterotyping, empowering sterotyping etc.

You really are to ones crying in the wilderness.

Back on Topic, you and people like Canadiangirl (shouldn't it be canadianwoman) come on this thread to lambast anybody that feels happy with their relationship here in Thailand... with the exception of gay men with younger boys obviously as that isn't PC. The same Canadiangirl who set up a post on how to get a boyfriend. Want us to mark you as a fat old sex tourist when you find your Thai boyfriend? Want us to call him a poor, uneducated, slave to western women sex tourists? No, then don't tar all of us and our wives as such then.

I did ask what all the unhappy posters on here do with their lives that is so fantastic and better than sex, love and a happy life etc. One reply only and that was "chocolate". Says more about you than us!

Just accept the staus quo, it happens. You'll always be outraged about people having something you feel they shouldn't have if it's a white man. And we will always feel sorry for anybody that spends their time yah boo sucking others.

Lots of knocking on this thread again of Thailand, Thai People falangs etc. Really wonder what some people come here for.

Try lightening up a bit, and stay away from the red light districts if it offends you so much.

Incidentally Doh-pont what applies to mis matched hetero couples applies to similarly mismatched Gay couples. Anyone with half a brain knows that. Sadly you are lacking the wherewithal to make that judgement.

Certainly made a play for the intelectual high ground their didn't you!!!

As with all you PC mudslingers though, you missed and we saw you miss, and you always will miss as you have nothing positive to bring to any thread.

Me! I am still very happy with my marriage. Still happy with Thailand, and still happy I don't have the miserable lot that you and CG seem to have.

What is it exactly that you have and do that makes you superior? Try and forumlate a sentence that is positive in this respect, not along the lines of " I am happy I am not a sexpat etc.." Show us what you intelectuals do in life that makes you so superior. So superior that anybody you see with a more attractive partner than you have, has to be a looser and have a hard fall coming to him.

Go on, show us just what you have in life, maybe we will be converts and start seeking out similar.

BTW why are you on this thread? You had a failed marriage or are you just trolling? I'm on here as its relevant to me, I feel lucky that my first marriage failed and that I am in my current one. TOTALLY OT. MY OPINION and nothing I have to prove or disprove to the likes of you.

Oh, brave boy by the way

Well so far, after a posting about how many falangs in mis matched relationships really understand the dynamics of the relationship I have been labelled PC, anti-white man, a Follower of Andre Dworkin (No I dont get that one at all but apparently Dustoff believes it), raped by an old man, desperate for a young girl, jealous of old men, fit and young and agist, unhappy and with an empty life. When I am accused of being AlQuaeda I will have the full set. Whats so funny in all of this is that I am one of the oldest contributors to the debate and am grossly overweight too. I am completely un PC as friends will testify and adore Andrea dworkin (OK so I lied about that one...I feel sorry for Dustoff) The only difference between me and lots of the contributors is that I wont exploit a young woman for my short term gratification and thats the real crime in their eyes...daring to talk about it. Whilst there's a conspiracy of silence the assorted rag bag of ne'er do wells, misfits, low lifes and low brows who make up Dustoffs happy band will continue to shout down any attempt to open up their seedy little world.

You are a dick. Plain and simple.

I happen to know Dustoff and his lovely wife and you would be shocked (because of your dick status) to know that they are one of the happiest couples i have ever seen. They both compliment each other to a tee. They are both very lucky to have each other.

Now tell me, whats so negative about that ?

Seedy little world ??? You really haven't a <deleted> clue..

Somehow I guessed you were a close friend.

[ColPyat]

You are a dick. Plain and simple.

I happen to know Dustoff and his lovely wife and you would be shocked (because of your dick status) to know that they are one of the happiest couples i have ever seen. They both compliment each other to a tee. They are both very lucky to have each other.

Now tell me, whats so negative about that ?

Seedy little world ??? You really haven't a <deleted> clue..

WOW!

Lets step back a little here and take a breath for a moment.

This is going a bit too far. Maybe you should re-read the whole thread before issuing such flames. Dustoff may be a nice person in real life - but here in this discussion he has belittled his opponents at least as bad as he was attacked, while at the same time refusing to respond to many points that were raised to point out problems zones in many of those mis-matched relationships, as have most vocal adversaries of us.

Glancing over socio-economical, cultural and communication factors, putting up defensive walls without any self-reflection does not do any service to either the discussion here, nor to your side of the debate. And such outright flames, and even threats, as were mostly issued by posters of Dustoff's side of the debate do show a rather clear picture.

[Austhaied]

You are a dick. Plain and simple.

I happen to know Dustoff and his lovely wife and you would be shocked (because of your dick status) to know that they are one of the happiest couples i have ever seen. They both compliment each other to a tee. They are both very lucky to have each other.

Now tell me, whats so negative about that ?

Seedy little world ??? You really haven't a <deleted> clue..

WOW!

Lets step back a little here and take a breath for a moment.

This is going a bit too far. Maybe you should re-read the whole thread before issuing such flames. Dustoff may be a nice person in real life - but here in this discussion he has belittled his opponents at least as bad as he was attacked, while at the same time refusing to respond to many points that were raised to point out problems zones in many of those mis-matched relationships, as have most vocal adversaries of us.

Glancing over socio-economical, cultural and communication factors, putting up defensive walls without any self-reflection does not do any service to either the discussion here, nor to your side of the debate. And such outright flames, and even threats, as were mostly issued by posters of Dustoff's side of the debate do show a rather clear picture.

I have read all the posts. I'm not taking sides either. Just stating facts.

The picture is crystal clear.

[buffcoat]

OK, it is another slow day in The City so the stats geek in me has escaped again and I would rather do this than hurricane clustering extrapolation for the Gulf of Mexico (I bet you are really jealous of me now).

As a reminder the 2001 data stated that 10,000 (4%) of males marrying in England & Wales during 2001 were 15 years or more older than their partner at marriage date.

Some more exciting facts for you from the source data.

Of married (from one day before the census as far back as the oldest surviving married man)white british males (9.237m)0.19%(17,550) were married to ethnic Asians (Pakistan to Japan including the Phillipines,Thailand,Malaysia etc).

45% of Asians were born in England & Wales therefore 0.1045% (9,652) of white british males were married to Asians who were not native to the UK at some point in all years prior to the census day in 2001.

The relative and absolute numbers tell you all you need to know.It is more likely that you would win the national lottery every month for the rest of your life than that the 15+ disparity group has a statistically significant proportion of white british male/asian female component.

You can accept or ignore this data (it is apparently a free country,so the Govt. tell me) but to me it is crystal clear that the incidence of age mismatched marriage in England & Wales is NOT a result of farang/Thai/third world relationships.

No doubt someone will say 'but it could be this factor, and until you prove it is not I don't have to accept the facts',this is an endless and pointless spiral and I will not waste my time with it.

My response is simple,if you wish to argue your case then the onus is on you to prove it,merely saying X or Y could be the cause is intellectually dishonest in the face of hard data (and yes this is hard data before anyone tries the cheap cop out of saying it is not).

So what does this prove?....It proves significant numbers of age mismatched marriages exist in England & Wales and they are not the product of interacial marriage.

That the same thing occurs in Thailand is not therefore an obvious abberation until proven to the contrary .Since the premise that has been raised in this forum is that farangs in thailand are able to act differently than they would in their home country this is significant.

If you have opinions as to why this occurs by all means state them but unless you can back them up with factual analysis please have the courtesy to acknowledge that.

My opinion on the issue as I have stated previously is that some of the age mismatch couples in Thailand are purely financial relationships and others are genuine emotional attachements but I think the same about couples in the UK.

Every couple is different and to my mind to try and say all couples of this type are X or Y is a foolish oversimplification...but that is just my opinion.

Right back to the exciting world of cluster analysis--cutting edge stuff! yummy!

[WaiWai]

(Buffcoat, I am not sure which is worse - your job or your hobby .)

More lies & damned statistics , then, from an article about the economic reasons why women marry older men. OK, we have all heard already the usually proffered reasons why that may be. The interesting part is the stats I have highlighted, which come from another source, and which I cannot download.

An economist wants an argument about relative costs and benefits. And we have one, one that springs from the role of men and women in the economic marketplace.

(. . .)

Economists Ted Bergstrom and Philip Bagnoli examined marital age gaps in 90 countries from 1950 to 1985.1 The average age for husbands exceeded that of their wives in every country during every time period. More importantly, the patterns in age gaps are precisely what the above theories would predict. For example:

1. The age difference between husbands and wives should be falling over time as labor market opportunities for women increase. As women specialize less in raising families and begin to compete in the labor force, the age difference between men and women in marital relationships should shrink. As the market success of women becomes a more valuable piece of the marital pie, men -- like women -- will find it advantageous to look for a proven veteran rather than an unproven child. The data support this hypothesis. The age gap between husbands and wives fell over the 1950 to 1985 period in almost every country.

2. The age difference between husbands and wives should be smaller in developed countries where women have better labor-market opportunities. In the U.S., the average age difference was 1.9 years in 1985. The average for Western Europe, Canada and Australia was 2.5 years. However, in less industrialized and more traditional societies, the age gap was higher. Men were an average of 3.5 years older than their wives in the sample countries from Latin America and Asia, and 5.7 years older than their wives in the African countries studied.

[tracer5050]

who bussiness anyway people need to live their own lives . I worry about no one if they are happy with each other [/b]so be it. I could not give a flip about what someone thinks of me and my wife .

[WaiWai]

who bussiness anyway people need to live their own lives . I worry about no one if they are happy with each other [/b]so be it. I could not give a flip about what someone thinks of me and my wife .

No need for you to read this, then .

Really, the point is largely about whether the younger Thai partners are quite as happy as their spouses.

[Aujuba]

Boy does all the quoting take up space!

I've been stuffed up lately. I just went to the toilet a minute ago and now I feel like a new man. You must know much a nice poop can lift you up. There's nothing like a good one after a long period of being all backed up. Ahhh relief. I feel like dancing. Anyone like that Sinatra album 'Lucky Numbers'?

[JohnnyThai]

who bussiness anyway people need to live their own lives . I worry about no one if they are happy with each other [/b]so be it. I could not give a flip about what someone thinks of me and my wife .

No need for you to read this, then .

Really, the point is largely about whether the younger Thai partners are quite as happy as their spouses.

I would guess that the Thai girls are happier than the farang in these relationships. They are getting the best of both worlds. These men have lower sex drives, so they require less of her physically, which gives her more time to 'go shopping' and 'visit her parents'. of course, these guys are also probably not entirely inocent. i am sure they go 'visit friends' in patters often themselves. these relationships are based on men trading money for sex. both parties win.

[JohnnyThai]

i do agree that this comes down to the male ego. every person on this planet wants to view themselves in a different manner than they exist. so an old man is now young and handsome. people ask 'how could he have been so blinded?' the answer is self-delusion. the men use excuses about the culture being different to explain why young women in their new habitat adore them while others back home loathed them.

[meemiathai]

who bussiness anyway people need to live their own lives . I worry about no one if they are happy with each other [/b]so be it. I could not give a flip about what someone thinks of me and my wife .

No need for you to read this, then .

Really, the point is largely about whether the younger Thai partners are quite as happy as their spouses.

The point really is about if people are sure that 100% of the younger thai partners is unhappy.

[buffcoat]

i do agree that this comes down to the male ego. every person on this planet wants to view themselves in a different manner than they exist. so an old man is now young and handsome. people ask 'how could he have been so blinded?' the answer is self-delusion. the men use excuses about the culture being different to explain why young women in their new habitat adore them while others back home loathed them.

Your opinions are interesting but if you would bother to read the data I have given from the UK Govt you will note that your statement regarding the position for English farangs in their own country is factually incorrect...the only deluded individual is the one who holds to their opinion/prejudice despite the facts that are available.

By the way,there is not a linear relationship between age and libido,studies of causes of sexual dysfunction between couples make this very clear.

[meemiathai]

So may I ask, in the west;

Do ugly farang men get laid?

Do fat farang men get laid?

Do stupid farang men get laid?

If they do, is it with old farang women, is it with obese farang women, is it with ugly farang women, is it with stupid farang women?

If a beautiful young inteligent farang woman is seen with a fat, ugly or old farang man together, does that mean I should automactically assume she is with him for money?

Ah! Isn't life simple? I just think too much.

By the way, RB, your little poems were brilliant. But can you make some more, this time not just on old men, I want to see those on ugly men, stupid men, fat men, ugly women, stupid women, and especially fat women! It is going to make a really good laugh! Hey also maybe those blind, deaf, dumb, crippled, handicapped oh whatever that can make a good laugh! Whatever that is going to hurt them! You know why, because I sure even if they are ugly, stupid, fat, they are not going to look for men/women that are also ugly, stupid, or fat. And that is a bloody sin!

Maybe also a little one for attractive men like myself!

[Aujuba]

Why did Bruce Willis call the evil Asian girl he offed in DieHard a 'cheap Asian hooker'? She had a young lover? Did he say it because it appeals to a mass audience in the West? Just curious. She didn't appear to be from Thailand and she was obviously intelligent.

[kmart]

Why did Bruce Willis call the evil Asian girl he offed in DieHard a 'cheap Asian hooker'? She had a young lover? Did he say it because it appeals to a mass audience in the West? Just curious. She didn't appear to be from Thailand and she was obviously intelligent.

Eh? I love it when threads turn surreal....

[Aujuba]

Surreal is just as real as real. The movie sucked. Bruce Willis wanted to join the army at 50 and go fight terrorists for the US military. I wish he did. What a horrible movie. He looked like he was a real granpappy in that movie. What a pathetic flick it was in terms of quality. It fits in with B flicks for sure. I'm sure Willis's career is over with this movie. He should be coming to Thailand soon.

[WaiWai]

I'm sure Willis's career is over with this movie. He should be coming to Thailand soon.

The point really is about if people are sure that 100% of the younger thai partners is unhappy.

That room for doubt is indeed a necessity . "We are different to other couples".

As for both parties being winners in these alliances, I think not. Try to put yourself in the shoes of the younger partner. Would you be happy with that ? No, and that's because you have been taught to expect more for yourself. Why shouldn't they also have a chance at a normal relationship, without the sullying shadow of being "bought" and the very real unpleasantness of what that entails ?