2 hours ago, fredwiggy said:

The US is well aware of how Middle Eastern soldiers are, as they have years of experience with them. Even US citizens like myself have been aware for decades how they fight. The US doesn't underestimate them one iota. That they aren't as equipped in fighting as the US will be their downfall, along with the fact Helis and planes will be used, which Iran has none of left.

What like in Vietnam?

35 minutes ago, 3NUMBAS said:

Inc 12 year old kids with ak47 rifles. A primitive backward nation who can’t do anything usefull with their lives

They said the same thing about the Vietcong as rural farmers. A super power humbled by the rural farmers. 😄

24 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

Exactly as none of us here, especially those who aren't Americans themselves and those who haven't any military in their families only know what we are being told by the medias. I'm sure no one wants to see Iran's regime overcoming the US, which would see more attacks worldwide. Can't let evil win no matter where it starts.

And the level of this illegal war of aggression started in Israel and the U.S.

6 minutes ago, FlorC said:

Well they are suckers, willing to die for israel's wars.

How is it Israel's war?

When did the Arab world disappear or not have a long standing problem with Iran?

Your usual European bias treats the Arabs as nothing. The Gulf arabs have been. attacked and extorted by Iran for decades. They have made clear that they will not accept Iranian nuclear weapons or Iran's stranglehold of the Gulf of Hormuz.

12 minutes ago, Hummin said:

So where should they hide? When their land is the same size as Manhattan! And completely surrounded! In every war existed, civilian helped their own against invaders, risking their lives, and when fighting Goliat for 50. Time, what do you really expecting?

USA will invade a country sized about 20% of USA and average height above sea level is 1300m. Good luck

Most civilians don't want anything to do with that regime, and are only going along from fear of death. This is why Iran would be making a big mistake going up against the US troops. Collateral damage because they are hiding among their own people, and their reasons are they don't care about them.

31 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

Yes, as this is how terrorists all over the world are recruited. Dictators and terrorist leaders threatening the families of young children unless they take their sides.

I gave a feeling blowing up a school full of young girls might be a means to promote recruitment in the fight against the aggressors in this Illegal Israeli/US war.

1 minute ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I gave a feeling blowing up a school full of young girls might be a means to promote recruitment in the fight against the aggressors in this Illegal Israeli/US war.

Completely forgetting what Iran has done these last decades of course.

Well we know the IRG already had at least 150,000 men and we know the National Defense Forces already had at least 200,000 men. With the reckless attitude that both Israel and the US have demonstrated toward the Iranian civilian population and infrastructure, it is likely that they've been able to recruit hundreds of thousands of young men for the cause.

Had the nimwits adopted a different approach, a public uprising would have been very possible, but now it's virtually impossible. And if Trump does send troops into Iran it is going to be a slaughterhouse and thousands upon thousands of Americans are going to lose their lives. And the only good that's going to come of that will be the total and complete downfall of Donald Trump, Hegseth, and the MAGA movement.

5 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

7 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

What like in Vietnam?

Ever hear of the damage the helis did back then, without consideration of what the models can do now? We lost 58K and they lost over 1.2 million. Not that close casualty wise.

These are special forces that come an go into designated areas like nuclear sites

4 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

Most civilians don't want anything to do with that regime, and are only going along from fear of death. This is why Iran would be making a big mistake going up against the US troops. Collateral damage because they are hiding among their own people, and their reasons are they don't care about them.

You’re right about that. Just as in the U.S., 50% or more of the population may have nothing to do with Trump or the government. But if your country were invaded by another country, do you think people would welcome the invaders with roses?

In Iran, the U.S. is still seen as the ‘Great Satan,’ regardless of who is in power. Many Iranians remember their history and how colonialism and foreign interference deeply damaged their country. The Shah was essentially an instrument of the U.S., and a brutal one at that. He jailed, persecuted, tortured, and executed his opponents, and even threatened entire families if one person resisted

2 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

And the level of this illegal war of aggression started in Israel and the U.S.

No it did not.

The arrogance of westerners is fantastic.

The Iranians kept Assad in power for over a decade and the result was 14 million refugees and 750,000 dead.

Your dismissal of the Arab position because it is not compatible with your anti Israel, anti USA bias ignores the problems Iran has been causing since 1979. iran has initiated the ongoing and recent conflicts in Iraq,Lebanon and Bahrain. It is Iran which has demanded control of the Strait of Hormuz and that wants a nuclear arrsenal. How many times does it need to be stated that the Gulf Arabs will not accept that?

Iran pushed Hamas to attack Israel and to start the Gaza conflict. It needed the war to keep the Gulf Arabs including Saudi Arabia from signing peace agreements with israel. Iran instructed Hezbollah to start the new Lebanese conflict. It has also instructed the shiite militias in Iraq to increase attacks on the Iraq government.

Trump will lead us to victory. This is just posturing from someone in Iran, or perhaps Russia - they don't even have leadership right now. If they did have a leader, they would eat an exploding can of tuna fish, and then there would not be a leader anymore. The war is going fine.

8 minutes ago, Patong2021 said:

No it did not.

The arrogance of westerners is fantastic.

The Iranians kept Assad in power for over a decade and the result was 14 million refugees and 750,000 dead.

Your dismissal of the Arab position because it is not compatible with your anti Israel, anti USA bias ignores the problems Iran has been causing since 1979. iran has initiated the ongoing and recent conflicts in Iraq,Lebanon and Bahrain. It is Iran which has demanded control of the Strait of Hormuz and that wants a nuclear arrsenal. How many times does it need to be stated that the Gulf Arabs will not accept that?

Iran pushed Hamas to attack Israel and to start the Gaza conflict. It needed the war to keep the Gulf Arabs including Saudi Arabia from signing peace agreements with israel. Iran instructed Hezbollah to start the new Lebanese conflict. It has also instructed the shiite militias in Iraq to increase attacks on the Iraq government.

When you have selective memory and a limited understanding of history, this probably sounds sensible and plausible.

The majority of Americans know very little about how the real world works. When Trump and his government control the narrative, and his followers believe it without question, what else can you expect?

17 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

They said the same thing about the Vietcong as rural farmers. A super power humbled by the rural farmers. 😄

The USA wasn't humbled. The South Vietnamese defeated themselves. South Vietnamese government was rotten to the core. They kept expecting the USA to keep them afloat.

The 200,000 Viet Cong were replaced by the 700,000 + North Vietnamese military and 400,000+ Chinese personnel years before the US draw down and departure.

The war left a legacy of destruction and poverty for 2 generations. A pyrrhic victory.

3 minutes ago, Hummin said:

When you have selective memory and a limited understanding of history, this probably sounds sensible and plausible.

The majority of Americans know very little about how the real world works. When Trump and his government control the narrative, and his followers believe it without question, what else can you expect?

How about educating me. Are you denying the Iranian involvement as listed?

Are you denying the Gulf Arab position on Iran's having nuclear weapons and dominance in the Strait of Hormuz?

2 hours ago, connda said:

This is how the average American envisions the average Iranian fighter. Which is why the US has already lost. It's a deadly ethnocentric miscalculation.

An even they won in Afghanistan and Iraq - go figure.

1 minute ago, Patong2021 said:

How about educating me. Are you denying the Iranian involvement as listed?

Are you denying the Gulf Arab position on Iran's having nuclear weapons and domonance in the Strait of Hormuz?

What you’re repeating is the standard narrative, repeated over and over without any wider understanding of why the situation is what it is.

Who supplied the materials that were used to kill Iranian soldiers? Who supported Saddam and helped keep him in power until he was no longer useful to them? Who bombed Iraq for years and then invaded it on false premises?

That is why the U.S. is seen as the ‘Great Satan’ in much of the Middle East, and why Israel is viewed as its closest ally in that system.

This is what everything ultimately comes back to, and why your narrative feels so one-sided.

And this is only one narrow example, just one step back in a much longer chain of events.

23 minutes ago, Patong2021 said:

No it did not.

The arrogance of westerners is fantastic.

The Iranians kept Assad in power for over a decade and the result was 14 million refugees and 750,000 dead.

Your dismissal of the Arab position because it is not compatible with your anti Israel, anti USA bias ignores the problems Iran has been causing since 1979. iran has initiated the ongoing and recent conflicts in Iraq,Lebanon and Bahrain. It is Iran which has demanded control of the Strait of Hormuz and that wants a nuclear arrsenal. How many times does it need to be stated that the Gulf Arabs will not accept that?

Iran pushed Hamas to attack Israel and to start the Gaza conflict. It needed the war to keep the Gulf Arabs including Saudi Arabia from signing peace agreements with israel. Iran instructed Hezbollah to start the new Lebanese conflict. It has also instructed the shiite militias in Iraq to increase attacks on the Iraq government.

Let me get something straight.......

Iran did it all, did they?

Funny how the bullies' narrative works: decades of Western interference, coups, sanctions, encirclement, and assassinationsbut the moment the bullied nation strikes back, suddenly they're the aggressor who "started it all."

Assad in power for a decade? Let me check who armed, funded, and cheerled the jihadist "moderate rebels" who turned Syria into a abattoir. Oh right the US, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and their Gulf proxies. But sure, blame Iran for keeping Assad alive while your side was shipping TOWs to Al-Qaeda affiliates.

750,000 dead, 14 million refugees? Perhaps ask who destabilized Iraq (2003 invasion, anyone?), armed sectarian militias, dissolved the Iraqi army, and created the conditions for ISIS. Or who funded Sunni extremists across the region for decades. Iran didn't invade Iraq on a lie about WMDs that was your team.

"Iran pushed Hamas to attack Israel"? Spare me. Israel has been systematically annexing Palestinian land, maintaining an apartheid state, and bombing Gaza every few years since long before October 7th. Hamas didn't need Iranian encouragement they had 75 years of occupation, dispossession, and humiliation as motivation. But I suppose in your world, Palestinians are just Iranian puppets with no agency or grievances of their own.

The Gulf Arabs "won't accept" Iranian influence? The Gulf Arabs will accept whatever Uncle Sam tells them to accept they're hereditary autocracies propped up by American weapons and security guarantees, not democracies with popular mandates. So save your crocodile tears about their "positions."

Iran wants a nuclear arsenal? Israel already has one (undeclared, unsafeguarded, in violation of every non-proliferation norm). The US has thousands. But Iran surrounded by hostile powers, threatened with regime change for 45 years isn't allowed deterrence? The double standard is grotesque.

Strait of Hormuz control? It's their strait. Imagine if Iran demanded control over the English Channel and acted outraged when Britain objected.

Your entire argument boils down to: "Iran resists American hegemony and Israeli expansion, therefore Iran is the problem." Meanwhile, the actual body count from American wars (Iraq, Libya, Syria, Yemen via Saudi proxies) dwarfs anything Iran's donebut those don't count because they were done by the "good guys."

The bullies cry the loudest when the bullied finally hit back. And they always,always claim they were the victims all along.

36 minutes ago, Hummin said:

You’re right about that. Just as in the U.S., 50% or more of the population may have nothing to do with Trump or the government. But if your country were invaded by another country, do you think people would welcome the invaders with roses?

In Iran, the U.S. is still seen as the ‘Great Satan,’ regardless of who is in power. Many Iranians remember their history and how colonialism and foreign interference deeply damaged their country. The Shah was essentially an instrument of the U.S., and a brutal one at that. He jailed, persecuted, tortured, and executed his opponents, and even threatened entire families if one person resisted

Anyone invades the US, there are thousands of citizens who would use their weapons to fight alongside the military. The Shah did some damage to Iran's people, but not near as much as Khomeini has. The US backed him back then, although not his actions against his people, and the mistakes were shown all along, until now when one president decided enough was enough. I dislike Trump, but him in power now is doing what the US let go the years before.

Again, you can't judge the US by the actions of the politicians, as many have been opposed to many things that have gone wrong over the years. Good and bad has happened.

1 minute ago, fredwiggy said:

Anyone invades the US, there are thousands of citizens who would use their weapons to fight alongside the military. The Shah did some damage to Iran's people, but not near as much as Khomeini has. The US backed him back then, although not his actions against his people, and the mistakes were shown all along, until now when one president decided enough was enough. I dislike Trump, but him in power now is doing what the US let go the years before.

Again, you can't judge the US by the actions of the politicians, as many have been opposed to many things that have gone wrong over the years. Good and bad has happened.

Tell the Germans in retrospektiv!

I don't think that help much

9 minutes ago, Hummin said:

Exactly, this is the common narrative that being repeatedly offered without wider understanding of why the situation is what it is.

Who delivered chemicals to kill Irani soldiers, who kept Saddam In Power until they F him over? Who bombed Irak for a decade before invading on false premises?

USA is the big Satan in middle East, and Israel is their best friend. That's how everything comes down to how it is, and why your narrative is single minded

The Chemicals that were sold to Iraq were under European control. The Mustard gas components came from Germany. Almost all of the chemicals were German or Dutch sourced. If you want to blame the USA or Israel at least get your facts straight. Israel was backing Iran. Germans had built the plant where the gas munitions were manufactured. It was done with the full knowledge of Germany and the EU.

The Gulf Arabs were backing Iraq and they pressured the USA to help Iraq since Iran was in a state of hostility against the USA.

Iraq invaded Kuwait. Iraq started the hostilities that culminated years later with the removal of the despot maniac.

None of this excuses or justifies the Iranian involvement in Syria, Lebanon, Yemen, Gaza and Iraq. Yours is the typical biased European mindset that seeks to blame everyone else for a legacy of European failures and greed. It was the EU that facilitated and enabled the Iranian enrichment of Uranium. First it started with Kraftwerk Union (KWU, a Siemens subsidiary) then it progressed through diplomatic enablement tools like agreements that provided cover for Iran's nuclear ambitions. Although Pakistan was a critical reason for the current enriched uranium, with parts were often sourced from the EU and UK because of a failure to intervene or to control the exports. Canada was an easy safe refuge for purchasing, as were EU based companies that helped conceal purchases and launder funds.

12 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

Let me get something straight.......

Iran did it all, did they?

Funny how the bullies' narrative works: decades of Western interference, coups, sanctions, encirclement, and assassinationsbut the moment the bullied nation strikes back, suddenly they're the aggressor who "started it all."

Assad in power for a decade? Let me check who armed, funded, and cheerled the jihadist "moderate rebels" who turned Syria into a abattoir. Oh right the US, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and their Gulf proxies. But sure, blame Iran for keeping Assad alive while your side was shipping TOWs to Al-Qaeda affiliates.

750,000 dead, 14 million refugees? Perhaps ask who destabilized Iraq (2003 invasion, anyone?), armed sectarian militias, dissolved the Iraqi army, and created the conditions for ISIS. Or who funded Sunni extremists across the region for decades. Iran didn't invade Iraq on a lie about WMDs that was your team.

"Iran pushed Hamas to attack Israel"? Spare me. Israel has been systematically annexing Palestinian land, maintaining an apartheid state, and bombing Gaza every few years since long before October 7th. Hamas didn't need Iranian encouragement they had 75 years of occupation, dispossession, and humiliation as motivation. But I suppose in your world, Palestinians are just Iranian puppets with no agency or grievances of their own.

The Gulf Arabs "won't accept" Iranian influence? The Gulf Arabs will accept whatever Uncle Sam tells them to accept they're hereditary autocracies propped up by American weapons and security guarantees, not democracies with popular mandates. So save your crocodile tears about their "positions."

Iran wants a nuclear arsenal? Israel already has one (undeclared, unsafeguarded, in violation of every non-proliferation norm). The US has thousands. But Iran surrounded by hostile powers, threatened with regime change for 45 years isn't allowed deterrence? The double standard is grotesque.

Strait of Hormuz control? It's their strait. Imagine if Iran demanded control over the English Channel and acted outraged when Britain objected.

Your entire argument boils down to: "Iran resists American hegemony and Israeli expansion, therefore Iran is the problem." Meanwhile, the actual body count from American wars (Iraq, Libya, Syria, Yemen via Saudi proxies) dwarfs anything Iran's donebut those don't count because they were done by the "good guys."

The bullies cry the loudest when the bullied finally hit back. And they always,always claim they were the victims all along.

The Strait of Hormuz isn't Iran's. They just control the northern shoreline. They have asserted control which isn't their right. It's a shared waterway as most are. So much blame against the US and Israel and much dismissed against what Iran has done the last 5 decades, and no one has an answer which is better than what's happening now. Much of this amounts to what Iran was planning for the future, both internal and external, and there are many opinions

Just now, fredwiggy said:

The Strait of Hormuz isn't Iran's. They just control the northern shoreline. They have asserted control which isn't their right. It's a shared waterway as most are. So much blame against the US and Israel and much dismissed against what Iran has done the last 5 decades, and no one has an answer which is better than what's happening now. Much of this amounts to what Iran was planning for the future, both internal and external, and there are many opinions

Gulf of Mexcio America - and it's called the Persian Gulf - these are Trump rules - might is right and negotiations for wimps and here we are. Israel/Trump started this let's not forget that.

1 minute ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

Gulf of Mexcio America - and it's called the Persian Gulf - these are Trump rules - might is right and negotiations for wimps and here we are. Israel/Trump started this let's not forget that.

No, Iran started this killing it's own people by the thousands and backing others against the US and Israel, killing over 1000 US soldiers with it's networks. As for the Gulf Of America-Mexico, it's actually both, as it borders both, Trump notwithstanding.

3 hours ago, fredwiggy said:

The US is well aware of how Middle Eastern soldiers are, as they have years of experience with them. Even US citizens like myself have been aware for decades how they fight. The US doesn't underestimate them one iota. That they aren't as equipped in fighting as the US will be their downfall, along with the fact Helis and planes will be used, which Iran has none of left.

The US army is very likely to be aware of it, just like it was aware that Iran could block the Hormuz strait.....

1 hour ago, connda said:

So goes the US propaganda. Any entity who is not US allies are "Dictators and Terrorist who kill their own people and 'threatening the families of young children unless they take their sides...' blah blah blah." I've heard it 100 times before an all it is is cover for attacking other countries, overthrowing their governments, and taking their resources. I forgive you for being brainwashed.

I'm thinking it's you with the brainwashing. I see things how they are, and end, before I make up my mind. There are bad decisions on all sides, but leaders who kill their own people aren't leaders but dictators and terrorists, genocidal maniacs who all need to be eliminated, and it has nothing to do with the US, although they do get involved eventually in many things outside it's borders, some of them legitimate. Wanting to help a country's citizens by getting rid of a dictator, genocidal leader is a no brainer. What's wrong with being allies to the US, as well as all other countries? Isn't that the goal?

3 minutes ago, candide said:

The US army is very likely to be aware of it, just like it was aware that Iran could block the Hormuz strait.....

In time that will be solved, as it hurts everyone.

2 minutes ago, candide said:

The US army is very likely to be aware of it, just like it was aware that Iran could block the Hormuz strait.....

Trump is likely panicking now and Hegseth is probably back on the bottle. We are on the brink of a historic humiliation of US hegemonic power and probably like WW2 was for the British Empire represents the zenith for that of the US. Strap on in it's likely to get very ugly as MAGA meets MIGA (Make Iran Great Again).

3 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

I'm thinking it's you with the brainwashing. I see things how they are, and end, before I make up my mind. There are bad decisions on all sides, but leaders who kill their own people aren't leaders but dictators and terrorists, genocidal maniacs who all need to be eliminated, and it has nothing to do with the US, although they do get involved eventually in many things outside it's borders, some of them legitimate. Wanting to help a country's citizens by getting rid of a dictator, genocidal leader is a no brainer. What's wrong with being allies to the US, as well as all other countries? Isn't that the goal?

The US always sees themsleves as the good guys who everyone should love who guzzle 25% of the world's resources whilst having 5% of the world's population - you just don't get it.