Bmw Mods

[Upcountry]

Ok, apologies, I realize not many people here can answer these questions, but it's worth a shot:

My brother-in-law is ready to take me to a local shop that may be able to convert my '93 318i with M42 to LPG. From what I've heard, BMW does not recommend it. But has it been done?

Another local garage has tried to get me to put a different old engine in my car, but it didn't interest me. But now I wonder if I could put a non-common rail diesel in!

Die or mai dai?

The car has low mileage and is in rather good shape, so it might be worth the expense if this can be done.

UC

Edited November 25, 2007 by Upcountry

[Thaiboxer]

LPG can cause catastrophic damage to older engines as it would erode the piston rings, etc. If BMW says don't do it, I would heed their advice; most late models should be able to handle LPG from what I hear.

With regards to dropping a diesel in there, you need to do your homework on this one. Diesels are much heavier and produce a lot more vibration/torque than their gasoline counterparts. Putting diesels in cars originally designed for gas engines was tried in the USA years ago, but those cars didn't hold up so the car companies stopped production. BMW's are pretty strong, so perhaps the engine mounts, chassis and drive train can handle a diesel. It would be a nice combo...good body with a durable engine. If you choose to go the diesel route, let us know how it works out.

[Upcountry]

Thanks for the advise and feedback, Thaiboxer. I'll update this thread if I do try diesel. But first, yes, extensive research is called for.

Either move (LPG or diesel) would certainly render the car unsellable I think.

[Thaiboxer]

If you ever decide to convert ANY car to LPG (provided the engine can handle it), you need to make sure the shop is reputable...perhaps there is some sort of govt database on shops that have the knowledge/tools to do the job right. LPG conversion requires safety valves and other components to prevent your car from becoming a bomb on wheels. From what I've heard, it costs about 40,000 Baht to have the conversion done here in BKK, so if somebody were asking for a lot less than that here, I would be wary.

With LPG, you'll probably have to fill up more often, but with the MUCH lower cost per liter, it should be a lot cheaper than using regular gas or diesel. However, LPG tanks are usually stored in the trunk of a car which limits cargo space. I would lean more towards the diesel option if I were in your shoes; even if the car could take LPG. Good luck!

[JimsKnight]

When I got my car done the LPG man said no way was it possible for a diesel car to be converted to LPG. Just my 2 baht...

[ajahnlau]

If you ever decide to convert ANY car to LPG (provided the engine can handle it), you need to make sure the shop is reputable...perhaps there is some sort of govt database on shops that have the knowledge/tools to do the job right. LPG conversion requires safety valves and other components to prevent your car from becoming a bomb on wheels. From what I've heard, it costs about 40,000 Baht to have the conversion done here in BKK, so if somebody were asking for a lot less than that here, I would be wary.

With LPG, you'll probably have to fill up more often, but with the MUCH lower cost per liter, it should be a lot cheaper than using regular gas or diesel. However, LPG tanks are usually stored in the trunk of a car which limits cargo space. I would lean more towards the diesel option if I were in your shoes; even if the car could take LPG. Good luck!

Buddy just had LPG conversion done for 15,000bht 100lit. tank. Will still run on benz. with flick of switch.

[madjbs]

It will convert to LPG fine and it shouldnt make much difference to how easy you can sell it, lots of people actually look for an LPG car. Expet 15,000 to 20,000 for the conversion. Whatever you do dont swap the engine for a diesel.

[qualtrough]

I haven't seen any info to indicate a risk of catastrophic ring wear with LPG engines. I have seen information suggesting that there is a risk of premature valve recession in older engines with unhardened valve seats and valves (pre-unleaded cars), but the BMW in question would certainly have hardened valve train components. In fact, LPG burns much cleaner, and leaves almost no carbon and corrosive material inside an engine. It also runs cooler. Many feel that it prolongs engine life, and that oil change periods can be extended because of less contamination of the oil, etc. Conversions in BKK run from 15,000 to 20,000 at govt. approved service centers. You can now get the donut tanks to fit in the spare tire well, although run a little more. I just converted my old Land Rover to LPG for 17,000. Runs cooler, smoother, starts better, no longer diesels when shut off hot, and actually gets better mileage. Power loss is almost undetectable. I calculated my savings on a fill up the other day and they came to 72%. That is now a typo. I was told savings average about 60%, so I am quite happy. The Rover gets such lousy mileage that the conversion will pay for itself within 4 months. My wife was worried about smell, but so far quite odorless. Will do our Volvo at some point, but it gets better mileage and is bearable for the time being.

Edited November 26, 2007 by qualtrough

[Thaiboxer]

My mistake....didn't realize LPG conversion was cheaper than 40K Baht. Also, didn't know it messed up only valves...had heard from a buddy about engine erosion. I do know one thing; our 1981 Toyota couldn't handle it

[tigerbeer]

went to the PTT NGV center today in chiang mai at the superhighway. 60k for a 100lit tank for a 4 valve car. PTT subsidises 10k and price is 50k for the conversion. according to the chart, a car that does 12km/litre would do 13.2 km/kg of NGV. with 100lit tank/22kgs, can do 290km for the price of THB227.48 full tank. dont ask me calculations, its on the chart and in THAI!

my honda civic does about 520km on a full tank of THB1400

we have LPG on the audi. a little smelly at times but bearable. That gives us approx 270kms in a full tank of 50Litres of LPG.

wonder if its worth doing the conversion to NGV? anyone with NGV?

[Gary A]

Depending on where you live and where you are going, CNG (compressed natural gas) is great but the fueling stations are few and far between in most places.

If I had a newer BMW with a sound engine, I would have no qualms converting it to LPG. LPG is much easier to get than CNG. Changing the engine to diesel would be viable only if the old engine was worn out. A friend of mine had an old BMW that had a Nissan diesel engine. It was OK but was a rattle trap for sure. He now has a diesel pickup truck. I think he sold the BMW for less than 100,000 baht.

[initiala4]

I haven't seen any info to indicate a risk of catastrophic ring wear with LPG engines. I have seen information suggesting that there is a risk of premature valve recession in older engines with unhardened valve seats and valves (pre-unleaded cars), but the BMW in question would certainly have hardened valve train components. In fact, LPG burns much cleaner, and leaves almost no carbon and corrosive material inside an engine. It also runs cooler. Many feel that it prolongs engine life, and that oil change periods can be extended because of less contamination of the oil, etc. Conversions in BKK run from 15,000 to 20,000 at govt. approved service centers. You can now get the donut tanks to fit in the spare tire well, although run a little more. I just converted my old Land Rover to LPG for 17,000. Runs cooler, smoother, starts better, no longer diesels when shut off hot, and actually gets better mileage. Power loss is almost undetectable. I calculated my savings on a fill up the other day and they came to 72%. That is now a typo. I was told savings average about 60%, so I am quite happy. The Rover gets such lousy mileage that the conversion will pay for itself within 4 months. My wife was worried about smell, but so far quite odorless. Will do our Volvo at some point, but it gets better mileage and is bearable for the time being.

How do you know that it runs cooler? What did you use to measure that? Just wondering....

[Thaiboxer]

I'm wondering on that point too...I was always under the impression that LPG and gasohol burned at higher temps than regular gas. Perhaps they burn cooler because they burn more efficiently...hence less time in the combustion chambers and less heat?

[LivinLOS]

we have LPG on the audi. a little smelly at times but bearable. That gives us approx 270kms in a full tank of 50Litres of LPG.

I would be very concerned with any installation where I could smell the gas at any time other than fill up !!

Some escaped LPG at fill up is normal and OK but if gas is coming from the sealed system thats a big safety warning !!

[John 1]

Read to-days Bangkok Post, PTT have a big spread on NGV and LPG conversion for petrol and diesel vehicles.

[qualtrough]

I haven't seen any info to indicate a risk of catastrophic ring wear with LPG engines. I have seen information suggesting that there is a risk of premature valve recession in older engines with unhardened valve seats and valves (pre-unleaded cars), but the BMW in question would certainly have hardened valve train components. In fact, LPG burns much cleaner, and leaves almost no carbon and corrosive material inside an engine. It also runs cooler. Many feel that it prolongs engine life, and that oil change periods can be extended because of less contamination of the oil, etc. Conversions in BKK run from 15,000 to 20,000 at govt. approved service centers. You can now get the donut tanks to fit in the spare tire well, although run a little more. I just converted my old Land Rover to LPG for 17,000. Runs cooler, smoother, starts better, no longer diesels when shut off hot, and actually gets better mileage. Power loss is almost undetectable. I calculated my savings on a fill up the other day and they came to 72%. That is now a typo. I was told savings average about 60%, so I am quite happy. The Rover gets such lousy mileage that the conversion will pay for itself within 4 months. My wife was worried about smell, but so far quite odorless. Will do our Volvo at some point, but it gets better mileage and is bearable for the time being.

How do you know that it runs cooler? What did you use to measure that? Just wondering....

I don't know the whys and wherefores, but my particular truck (old Series Land Rover) used to run at 3/4 on the temp gauge on hot days with the AC running. Now with LPG it never exceeds 1/2. My engine also used to diesel (run-on) when shut off. That usually happens because of hot spots within the cylinder head that cause pre-ignition. The Rover 2.25 petrol engine is known for that. Anyway, that doesn't happen when I run LPG. I switch off the key and the motor shuts down. I have read that engines run cooler on LPG so I don't think these results are unique to my engine.

I also read that the valve damage that can occur with non-hardened valve train components is due to LPG lacking the lubricating and cooling properties of gasoline. Since most forum members will have cars that are less than 10 years old that is probably not something to worry about at all since they have the hardened parts from the factory. Even with older engines some people are of the opinion that if they have been run on leaded fuel for a period of time the valves and seats will 'self-harden' and not be damaged. I didn't go out and buy hardened parts simply because it would be much cheaper for me to have the head rebuilt here using cheap OEM parts and then install it in an afternoon. I hope it doesn't come to that, but even if it does I will have saved more money on cheaper fuel than I spent on redoing the head.

I did a cylinder compression test and will do that periodically to see if I notice any change that might be due to running LPG. If there is premature valve or ring wear that will let me know.

Edited November 29, 2007 by qualtrough

[Gary A]

I think in the next couple of years you will see diesel engines with LPG injection systems. The Australians have been working on this and have been quite successful. The engine doesn't run on LPG but apparently the combination of the two fuels has proven to be very efficient.

[Upcountry]

Hey, y'all, thanks for all the input.

I had a pleasant surprise yesterday when I finally called BMW headquarters in BKK, on the advice of my local dealer. The last time I called them a year or so ago they weren't all that helpful, and warned me that my car could not run E10.

Well this year they had a different story. First of all, the well-Engilsh-spoken fellow on the phone seemed prepared to field calls like mine. He told me that my 1993 3-series with M42 could indeed handle E10. The only problem I would have would mainly be a foot-long rubber tube behind the fuel pump. Also, if my pump is more than 10 years old it might fail as well. Mai pen rai!

He explained that California replaced 95, or whatever, with E10 some time ago without telling anybody, and noone blamed their problems on it. Since the Thai gov't announced it, it brought all the old car owners out of the wood-work to complain. Sheesh! Glad they did.

The other good news for my car is that it can be adapted to use LPG or NGV. The BMW rep recommended LPG for it's smaller tank and longer range.

So, I have options.

Ironically, when I called my dealer she told me that just that day (Friday) a BMW in Phitsanulok that had had an LPG conversion, supposedly, blew up! It was on the Thai television news. Guess that underlines how important it is to go to a reputable shop.

I like the idea that I can switch back and forth between LPG and gasoline if I need to. I imagine I can't close off and remove the tank if I need to. I'd like to use LPG in town and 95/gasohol on the highway for longer range and trunk space. I could get the donut tank, but just because I haven't had a flat yet doesn't mean I won't, somewhere between Lampang and a gully.

UC

Edited December 1, 2007 by Upcountry

[qualtrough]

Hey, y'all, thanks for all the input.

I had a pleasant surprise yesterday when I finally called BMW headquarters in BKK, on the advice of my local dealer. The last time I called them a year or so ago they weren't all that helpful, and warned me that my car could not run E10.

Well this year they had a different story. First of all, the well-Engilsh-spoken fellow on the phone seemed prepared to field calls like mine. He told me that my 1993 3-series with M42 could indeed handle E10. The only problem I would have would mainly be a foot-long rubber tube behind the fuel pump. Also, if my pump is more than 10 years old it might fail as well. Mai pen rai!

He explained that California replaced 95, or whatever, with E10 some time ago without telling anybody, and noone blamed their problems on it. Since the Thai gov't announced it, it brought all the old car owners out of the wood-work to complain. Sheesh! Glad they did.

The other good news for my car is that it can be adapted to use LPG or NGV. The BMW rep recommended LPG for it's smaller tank and longer range.

So, I have options.

Ironically, when I called my dealer she told me that just that day (Friday) a BMW in Phitsanulok that had had an LPG conversion, supposedly, blew up! It was on the Thai television news. Guess that underlines how important it is to go to a reputable shop.

I like the idea that I can switch back and forth between LPG and gasoline if I need to. I imagine I can't close off and remove the tank if I need to. I'd like to use LPG in town and 95/gasohol on the highway for longer range and trunk space. I could get the donut tank, but just because I haven't had a flat yet doesn't mean I won't, somewhere between Lampang and a gully.

UC

You could use the donut and keep one of those cans for reinflating your tire. Unless your tire exploded or was shredded that should at least get you to the next service station. I guess it is a choice between reduced trunk space or no spare tire.