Head On Collision - Air Bags Failed To Open

[Skyline]

Glad to hear you're ok Mobi.

The reality of the Fortuner is,a bargain basement SUV.It was designed,manufactured and built with a low purchase price in mind,and it shows.Its a pick-up with a lot more weight and less safety standards than it requires.

I'm not knocking the Fortuner,its a daily driver thats reliable,comfortable and more than enough power for most people.But,I wouldnt want to own one.

[HDRIDER]

Many cars have airbags that will not inflate if the car is hit in a certain way. Regardless of the what the manual says a collision similar to the one you were involved in may not have triggered the airbag mechanism because in that type of collision an airbag inflation may have been more harmful than good or even unnecessary.

Not saying that is what happened but airbag technology, even on mid-90's cars is a lot more complicated than having a bump at more than 15mph and the airbag automatically goes off.

I will say that I have seen collisions similar to yours on the off side front where airbags do not discharge as it could be worse for the occupants if they do.

I would think it likely that Bull bars and similar after market parts can affect airbag detonation also.

Hi

Your right, my friend had a bad accident, no airbag released, they took the car, Fiat coupe, and pulled it apart, airbag was good, but because of the angle he was hit the airbag did not inflate, and was not suppose to.

[mikethevigoman]

Glad you are ok mobi, can i ask, did you have any type of bull bar or bumper cover on the front ? i cant see one in the pic but id like to check,

Yes I did have a Bull bar at the front. It seems to have disappeared (or disintegrated?) along with the front number plate.

Maigo6

I just been googling about Airbags and seatbelts and looks like some cars Airbags will not work without the seatbelt engaged.

I have just read the car manual and it is very clear that both air bags will inflate if there is an impact of 25kms per hour, or more, regardless of whether occupants wear the seat belts. The manual goes to great lengths to warn occupants that they may suffer serious injuries from air bags if they do not wear seat belts. It also states that the passenger air bag will inflate even if there is no occupant. My impact was severe and way in excess of 25kms/hr, so they definitely failed to inflate.

My guess is that the guys at Toyota service disengaged the air bags to stop the panel light from flashing, when I asked them to fix it. It has been through several services since then (including40K) and the bags should have been checked.

Regarding the locked doors - it only states that the auto locking will disengage if the ignition is turned off or if someone manually unlocks a door. So that's why they didn't unlock. A very dangerous situation if you ask me. The auto locking feature can be permanently overridden, which I will do next time, but I don't think this has been thought through properly by the manufacturer.

A very big manufacturer of bull bars and bumper protectors has sent all dealers a notice to say that further supplies of bull bars will be limited to plastic/rubber as insurance companies in the uk will be refusing coverage to cars with metal bars fitted as the airbag sensors are affected by them, i know this dosent affect insurance in Thailand, however im sure there is some truth in this and that these safety systems are affected by any obstructions,im going to google to see if i can find any tests ,.

[mikethevigoman]

Many cars have airbags that will not inflate if the car is hit in a certain way. Regardless of the what the manual says a collision similar to the one you were involved in may not have triggered the airbag mechanism because in that type of collision an airbag inflation may have been more harmful than good or even unnecessary.

Not saying that is what happened but airbag technology, even on mid-90's cars is a lot more complicated than having a bump at more than 15mph and the airbag automatically goes off.

I will say that I have seen collisions similar to yours on the off side front where airbags do not discharge as it could be worse for the occupants if they do.

I would think it likely that Bull bars and similar after market parts can affect airbag detonation also.

Hi

Your right, my friend had a bad accident, no airbag released, they took the car, Fiat coupe, and pulled it apart, airbag was good, but because of the angle he was hit the airbag did not inflate, and was not suppose to.

True, this is why some car makers fit side bags,

[Mobi]

I'm so used to seatbelts I feel uncomfortable in movie theaters.

Mobi, did you wear it or not?

No, I didn't.

mikethevigoman

A very big manufacturer of bull bars and bumper protectors has sent all dealers a notice to say that further supplies of bull bars will be limited to plastic/rubber as insurance companies in the uk will be refusing coverage to cars with metal bars fitted as the airbag sensors are affected by them, i know this dosent affect insurance in Thailand, however im sure there is some truth in this and that these safety systems are affected by any obstructions,im going to google to see if i can find any tests ,.

My bull bar was some kind of grey plastic compound, not metal. So presumably it wouldn't have affected the air bag sensors.

Maigo6

I will insist on an inspection of mine, my next Service is at 50,000 Km, I think I will also investigate over riding the auto door locking once the car hits 25Kph, as you say, it could have cost you your life cos nobody could get you out.

I'll probably never know if the angle of impact was the reason the bags did not inflate, but considering the force of the impact, which, for my vehicle wasn't far from head on, then I would be surprised. I think it is a very good idea to have Toyota check them at every service. (BTW I only used accredited Toyota dealers.) The auto locking thing is positively deadly in my opinion, and strangely enough someone had already warned me about this prior to the accident.

Skyline

The reality of the Fortuner is,a bargain basement SUV.It was designed,manufactured and built with a low purchase price in mind,and it shows.Its a pick-up with a lot more weight and less safety standards than it requires.

Well I won't deny that it's not good value for money, but at around 1,3 million it is the same price as a CRV and other SUV's, albeit they are smaller vehicles. I was thinking of changing out, not because I wasn't happy with , because I was, but because there are so many on the road it was driving me mad. I was thinking about a Camry or an Accord. but now I'm not so sure.

In spite of all the criticism that has been posted on this thread, the cabin of the Fortuner remained intact and probably saved my life. I'm not sure a saloon car would have survived the crash in the same state. And anyway the roads are so bad down here, that maybe I should stick to an SUV.

Plenty of time to think about it as I'm not about to get behind the wheel of any vehicle just yet. I seem to be suffering from 'post crash shock', if there is such a thing.

[Who, me ?]

go back to drive IMMEDIATELY....Do not wait...I had a similar experience a few years back, and I was urged to drive immediately.

The day after the cras I was behind a wheel....almost s_hitting my pants....but it did the trick....

Do not wait

[monty]

go back to drive IMMEDIATELY....Do not wait...I had a similar experience a few years back, and I was urged to drive immediately.

The day after the cras I was behind a wheel....almost s_hitting my pants....but it did the trick....

Do not wait

Must agree with Who Me?...

I've been skydiving half my life, and the first thing they do after you have had your first main chute malfunction (and came down under your reserve chute), is to take another rig of the shelf, put it on your back and straight into the plane again.

Works every single time.

If you fail to do that, and give them the time to reflect on what happened, guaranteed over 50 % of them will never ever jump again!

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

Mobi

Glad no one was seriously injured. My next service I will have that auto lock disabled, that is a bad feature. Do you have any idea of the cost of repair? Let all of us on TV know how this all turns out. I will be interesting to know what Toyota has to say! Good luck with it all.

[Mobi]

Mobi

Glad no one was seriously injured. My next service I will have that auto lock disabled, that is a bad feature. Do you have any idea of the cost of repair? Let all of us on TV know how this all turns out. I will be interesting to know what Toyota has to say! Good luck with it all.

After I was carted away to hospital my wife met with the Insurance company, dealt with the police and the insurers shipped the car to BKK to be repaired. I don't know if I will be made aware of the cost, and it will not be possible to have Toyota inspect the vehicle, as was suggested by some posters.

I will post what I find out and I will also take up the air bag issue with Toyota in Pattaya, but frankly, I doubt I will get very far, but who knows?

[Jareddiving]

Try to find out out if the airbags-system was indeed disabled!

[Gary A]

The air bag warning light is indeed tied into a lot of other things. The last Toyota I had gave me the air bag warning light. The Toyota dealer had about half of the interior panels torn out before he found the problem. The problem was a bad connection on the passenger side seat belt retractor.

I'm certainly NOT a Toyota fan but in all fairness, I don't think the air bags are supposed to deploy unless the seat belts are fastened.

Edited March 23, 2008 by Gary A

[HDRIDER]

Hi

Read this. Dont know if its the same in Fortuner

Airbags are not deployed in all types of accident. They are controlled by complex sensor technology and evaluation logic. This process is pre-emptive in nature as airbag deployment must take place during the impact and must be adapted to provide calculated, additional protection for the vehicle occupants. Not all airbags are activated in an accident.

The different airbag systems work independently of each other. However, the deployment of each individual system will depend on the type of accident determined by the control system in the initial stages of the collision (head-on collision or side impact) and the severity of the accident (in particular, the vehicle's rate of deceleration or acceleration).

The rate of vehicle deceleration or acceleration and the direction of the force are basically determined by:

• the distribution of forces during the collision

• the collision angle

• the deformation characteristics of the vehicle

• the characteristics of the object with which the vehicle has collided, e.g. the other vehicle

Factors which can only be seen and measured after the collision has taken place do not play a decisive role in the deployment of an airbag, nor do they provide an indication of it.

The vehicle may be considerably deformed without an airbag being deployed if, for example, only relatively easily deformable parts, such as the bonnet or wings, have been hit and the required rate of deceleration has not been reached. It is also possible that airbags may be deployed even though the vehicle is only slightly deformed, if, for example, very rigid vehicle parts such as the longitudinal members are hit in an accident and the rate of deceleration is sufficient.

An airbag increases the protection of vehicle occupants wearing a seat belt. However, airbags are only an additional restraint system which complements, but does not replace, the seat belt. All vehicle occupants must wear their seat belt correctly at all times, even if the vehicle is equipped with airbags. This is because – on the one hand – airbags are not deployed in all types of accident, as in some situations airbag deployment would not increase the protection afforded to vehicle occupants, provided they are wearing their seat belt correctly.

On the other hand, airbag deployment only provides increased protection if the seat belt is worn correctly, because:

• the seat belt helps to keep the vehicle occupant in the best position in relation to the airbag

• for example, in a head-on collision, the seat belt can more adequately prevent the occupant from being propelled towards the force of the impact, and is thus better suited to prevent injury

Thus, in accident situations where an airbag is deployed, it only provides protection in addition to the seat belt if the seat belt is being worn correctly.

Risk of injury

Modifications to or work performed incorrectly on restraint systems (seat belts, anchorages, belt tensioners, belt force limiters or airbags) or their wiring, as well as work on other networked electronic systems, may prevent the restraint systems from working correctly. Airbags and belt tensioners could fail, e.g. in the event of an accident, the deceleration force of which would normally be sufficient to trigger the systems, or could be triggered unintentionally. Never carry out any modifications on the restraint systems. Never tamper with electronic components and their software.

Triggering of belt tensioners, belt force limiters and airbags

In the event of a collision, the sensor in the airbag control unit evaluates important physical data such as duration, direction and force of the vehicle deceleration or acceleration. Based on the evaluation of this data and depending on the vehicle's rate of longitudinal deceleration in a collision, in the first stage, the airbag control unit pre-emptively triggers the belt tensioners.

The front airbags are only deployed if there is an even higher degree of vehicle deceleration in a longitudinal direction.

If your vehicle is fitted with adaptive dual-stage front airbags, the front airbag is filled with enough gas to reduce the risk of injuries at the first activation threshold. The front airbag is only fully inflated if a second threshold is reached within a few milliseconds due to the control unit having detected further deceleration.

The front-passenger front airbag is only triggered if the front-passenger seat occupancy recognition system recognises that the seat is occupied.

The front belt tensioners can only be activated if the belt tongue is correctly engaged in the seat belt buckle.

Triggering of belt tensioners and airbags

In the first stages of a collision, the sensor in the airbag control unit evaluates physical data, such as duration, direction and rate of vehicle deceleration or acceleration in order to determine whether it is necessary to trigger the belt tensioners and/or airbags.

The belt tensioner and airbag activation thresholds are variable and are adapted to the degree of deceleration of the vehicle. This process is pre-emptive in nature as the airbag must be deployed during – and not at the end of – the collision.

[Mobi]

As I have already stated, I have read the very detailed section in the Fortuner handbook on the subject of air bags, and it is very clear that the air bag will inflate without the seat belt being engaged. The passenger seat bag will inflate even if there is no one sitting there. This may not be the case with other cars but it certainly is with the Fortuner. They warn you that you may be seriously injured by the bags if you are not wearing a seat belt.

Also as previously stated, the bags, will inflate at a speed of 25kms/hr. So while my accident was not fully head on, it was as near as dam_n it, at a high combined speed exceeding 180, so I am still inclined to believe there was a fault.

[wilko]

Mobi - are you seriously saying you weren't wearing a seat belt???????

[Plus]

Yeah, but then we had a guy killed in a Honda City because it was squashed into pancake. Would never happen to a pickup.

[Who, me ?]

Yeah, but then we had a guy killed in a Honda City because it was squashed into pancake. Would never happen to a pickup.

I would not bet on this ! I have seen once a Isuzu DMax that I could recognise only because it I saw the sticker on the side of the bed. Was quite flat, and needless to say that driver and passenger were not easy to extract from the wreck.....

Pick up truck is no garantee of safe escape....

[Plus]

It can happen if it runs under a ten wheeler. Honda's case was a stationary vehicle rammed by a bus with faulty breaks (official version).

[Digger]

As I have already stated, I have read the very detailed section in the Fortuner handbook on the subject of air bags, and it is very clear that the air bag will inflate without the seat belt being engaged. The passenger seat bag will inflate even if there is no one sitting there. This may not be the case with other cars but it certainly is with the Fortuner. They warn you that you may be seriously injured by the bags if you are not wearing a seat belt.

Also as previously stated, the bags, will inflate at a speed of 25kms/hr. So while my accident was not fully head on, it was as near as dam_n it, at a high combined speed exceeding 180, so I am still inclined to believe there was a fault.

[Digger]

sounds to me like the fault lie's with the driver doing 100kmh on a road which any resident knows is dangerous. Par for the course to blame the manufacturer when the reality is probably that the fault is with the driver who conveniently cant remember anything - seen it so many times in Thailand - drive a Fortuner and think your bullet proof - yet all the time, its just a pick up with pick up handling etc. A pick up is NOT a saloon car and does NOT handle in the same way.

Glad your OK but really think you need look closely at your own style of driving before blaming airbags for the issue. An airbag is NOT going to prevent a jerk causing an accident through reckless behaviour and 100kmh anywhere around Maprachan is just that. Sorry to be so blunt but I have seen so many needless accidents in this country.

[Gearhead13]

the Fortuner appears to be getting more than its fair share of bad press just lately. Mobi has had a life threatening experience due to failures, previous reports out of phuket described what appeared to be brake failure and another report suggested that the spare wheel would not fit one or other of the wheels if so required.

If I were Mobi, I would get this damaged vehicle towed to the nearest Toyota agent and dump it on their front step, taking media persons with it of course. remember the lady in BKK who smashed her windshield in front of the media as she could get no satisfaction from the manufacturer ( I think again this was Toyota). After that incident Toyota bent over backwards to replace her car.

I totally agree with nonthaburial's ideas. Give it publicity. You would help other Totyota Fortuner drivers too.

Petch01

It was just last year I think, that this Land Rover owner got blown off by the manufacturer on several occasions over undelivered promises. What he did was the greatest thing. This was out of bkk: He harnessed it to a water buffalo and had it pull his SUV along the streets. In the next day he was all over TV giving interviews.

[Rimmer]

sounds to me like the fault lie's with the driver doing 100kmh on a road which any resident knows is dangerous. Par for the course to blame the manufacturer when the reality is probably that the fault is with the driver who conveniently cant remember anything - seen it so many times in Thailand - drive a Fortuner and think your bullet proof - yet all the time, its just a pick up with pick up handling etc. A pick up is NOT a saloon car and does NOT handle in the same way.

SNIP

Methinks you have lost the plot, the thread is called "Head On Collision - Air Bags Failed To Open, Toyota Fortuner - 2 years old" Not I am an irresponsible driver driving too fast in the dark and can't remember a thing.

Regardless of anything else both air bags should deploy and that is what the discussion is about.

[paul1970]

I'm so used to seatbelts I feel uncomfortable in movie theaters.

Mobi, did you wear it or not?

No, I didn't.

mikethevigoman

A very big manufacturer of bull bars and bumper protectors has sent all dealers a notice to say that further supplies of bull bars will be limited to plastic/rubber as insurance companies in the uk will be refusing coverage to cars with metal bars fitted as the airbag sensors are affected by them, i know this dosent affect insurance in Thailand, however im sure there is some truth in this and that these safety systems are affected by any obstructions,im going to google to see if i can find any tests ,.

My bull bar was some kind of grey plastic compound, not metal. So presumably it wouldn't have affected the air bag sensors.

Maigo6

I will insist on an inspection of mine, my next Service is at 50,000 Km, I think I will also investigate over riding the auto door locking once the car hits 25Kph, as you say, it could have cost you your life cos nobody could get you out.

I'll probably never know if the angle of impact was the reason the bags did not inflate, but considering the force of the impact, which, for my vehicle wasn't far from head on, then I would be surprised. I think it is a very good idea to have Toyota check them at every service. (BTW I only used accredited Toyota dealers.) The auto locking thing is positively deadly in my opinion, and strangely enough someone had already warned me about this prior to the accident.

Skyline

The reality of the Fortuner is,a bargain basement SUV.It was designed,manufactured and built with a low purchase price in mind,and it shows.Its a pick-up with a lot more weight and less safety standards than it requires.

Well I won't deny that it's not good value for money, but at around 1,3 million it is the same price as a CRV and other SUV's, albeit they are smaller vehicles. I was thinking of changing out, not because I wasn't happy with , because I was, but because there are so many on the road it was driving me mad. I was thinking about a Camry or an Accord. but now I'm not so sure.

In spite of all the criticism that has been posted on this thread, the cabin of the Fortuner remained intact and probably saved my life. I'm not sure a saloon car would have survived the crash in the same state. And anyway the roads are so bad down here, that maybe I should stick to an SUV.

Plenty of time to think about it as I'm not about to get behind the wheel of any vehicle just yet. I seem to be suffering from 'post crash shock', if there is such a thing.

Which begs the question what where you thinking driving those kinds of speed, I understand this happened on the roads around Maprachan lake ? I drive fast but I wouldn't even consider driving those kinds of speeds during daytime on those crappy roads. And you should consider the scooters that drive around in Thailand if 1 or more of them had been involved you could easily have killed someone.

I'm glad your OK though but there are some serious questoins that need to be answered here.

1 Why the bags didn't go off, I beleive there should be a thorough investigation of your vehicle by either your insurance company, or Thai ministry of transport if there exists such an organisation or Toyota to find the cause, if it is found that a Toyata registered dealership disabled them due to a fault then charges should most certainly be brought against them, please please don't let this issue drop.

2 There is no way on earth should doors lock in the event of an accident and this again should be looked at and possible charges raised against who is to bame.

Hope your back on the road soon but hopefully at more appropriate speeds for the road conditions.

[Mobi]

There is nowhere in any of my posts that I suggested that the failure of the seat belts to inflate in any way contributed to my accident.

I haven't CONVENIENTLY forgotten what happened and I resent the insinuation. I am not a liar. I was unconscious for around 15 minutes and I have absolutely no recollection of what happened. I am even surmising on my speed, which is being as honest as I am able.

As Rimmer said, this is a discussion on why the seat belts failed to inflate, nothing more nothing less. Of course the thread can be taken in any direction it desires, but I resent people suggesting I am a liar. I don't know what happened that night, but everyone who knows me will tell you that I am a very safe driver, have driven the length and breadth of Thailand over the past few years, and have never had a serious accident in 45 years of driving. It was foolish of me not to wear the belt, and I was probably at fault over the acident - but I will never know for sure , and as there were no witnesses, no one will ever know for sure.

I have already advised that the car has been taken to Bangkok for repairs, so I have no idea if it will be possible to have it later checked for seat belt problems.

[Gearhead13]

There is nowhere in any of my posts that I suggested that the failure of the seat belts to inflate in any way contributed to my accident.

I haven't CONVENIENTLY forgotten what happened and I resent the insinuation. I am not a liar. I was unconscious for around 15 minutes and I have absolutely no recollection of what happened. I am even surmising on my speed, which is being as honest as I am able.

As Rimmer said, this is a discussion on why the seat belts failed to inflate, nothing more nothing less. Of course the thread can be taken in any direction it desires, but I resent people suggesting I am a liar. I don't know what happened that night, but everyone who knows me will tell you that I am a very safe driver, have driven the length and breadth of Thailand over the past few years, and have never had a serious accident in 45 years of driving. It was foolish of me not to wear the belt, and I was probably at fault over the acident - but I will never know for sure , and as there were no witnesses, no one will ever know for sure.

I have already advised that the car has been taken to Bangkok for repairs, so I have no idea if it will be possible to have it later checked for seat belt problems.

I'm with you on this. We are supposed to be discussing technicalities here, not the cause of the accident.

[Naam]

I haven't CONVENIENTLY forgotten what happened and I resent the insinuation. I am not a liar. I was unconscious for around 15 minutes and I have absolutely no recollection of what happened. I am even surmising on my speed, which is being as honest as I am able.

take it easy Mobi and don't bother with clowns and their insinuations! those of us who know you personally can vouch that you are a gentleman who reported to the best of his knowledge what happened.

[Plus]

This situation with air bags needs to be cleared. What if Toyota service centers disable them nationwide without informing customers?

[Priceless]

Pardon me if I've missed something that has already been posted earlier in the thread, but to me the picture seems to indicate that it wasn't a head-on collision at all? As far as I can see, the collision appears to have been wing to wing. The radiator seems to be intact, whereas it would have been crushed beyond recognition by a head-on crash. It also appears that the other vehicle has "slid" along the right hand (driver's) side of the Fortuner, which would be impossible in a head-on and so on.

In a "wing-on-wing" collision, one would expect the wings to deform, which they are designed to and obviously have, thereby absorbing most of the force of the impact. It may actually be that the airbags "judged" the situation correctly, i.e. that the collision force coming straight on was less than that of a head-on collision at 25 km/h. That the driver was thoroughly knocked out at that kind of impact is not unheard of, considering that he was not wearing a safety belt.

Just my two satangs worth...

/ Priceless

[wilko]

sounds to me like the fault lie's with the driver doing 100kmh on a road which any resident knows is dangerous. Par for the course to blame the manufacturer when the reality is probably that the fault is with the driver who conveniently cant remember anything - seen it so many times in Thailand - drive a Fortuner and think your bullet proof - yet all the time, its just a pick up with pick up handling etc. A pick up is NOT a saloon car and does NOT handle in the same way.

Glad your OK but really think you need look closely at your own style of driving before blaming airbags for the issue. An airbag is NOT going to prevent a jerk causing an accident through reckless behaviour and 100kmh anywhere around Maprachan is just that. Sorry to be so blunt but I have seen so many needless accidents in this country.

i don't really think that it is an issue of Fault.

however you are totally right about pick-ups and their derivatives.

also the first line of defence in an accident is always the seat belt...this is far more effective than any other "subsequent" safety device.

It doesn't look like head-on to me though? the damade appears to be down the side...???

[Thaiboxer]

Crash test ratings can always shed some light on what vehicles do well in accidents, but with the way vehicles are made today, it's hard to agree with all the tests. Fuel economy is important but making cars too "tinny" isn't the way to go. Many pickups here look as if they're pretty flimsy although cars are generally much worse. Makes me want to buy a 10 wheel truck....too bad they're not easy to park around BKK.

[Plus]

If that is the damage sustained in 180 km/h collision and the driver walked away just a with minor concussion - way to go, Fortuner.