If The Roles Were Reversed?

[sylviex]

There are many indications that Thailands development goes from more or less matriarchal, tribal organisation to a more patriarchal direction with the rise of buddhism and a centralised state. Matriarchal organisation is characterised by sexual freedom, common property (people share everything) and mainly animistic beliefs. Especially in the countryside in Thailand we can see these characteristics more or less. Also heredity is still in the female line:

Agree.

Sexual liberty in Thailand is not a western invention. May be the west has used c.q. misused the existing freedom and naivity. If you talk about lack of sexual freedom I think primarely of moslimcountries. They are maledominated and especially woman have very less sexual freedom. In Thailand woman are relatively free, also in their sexlife.

Compared to women in *some* Muslim countries, OK. Compared to women in "Western" countries -- I think not. There are many contradictions, but I think for Thai women, engaging in sex before marriage, for example, is still considered "bad". Why are Thai men not keen to marry divorced Thai women ? What about the emphasis on female virginity ? Is it very common for married Thai women to have a "minor husband"? And so on ...

I think some Westerners like to think some kinds of behaviours are acceptable in Thai culture when the absolute reverse is true.

[Maigo6]

What would be the reactions in your homecountry if thousends of more or less old, rich foreign man would come to your country and marry with more or less young, poor girls from your country?

How would people look at this?

I would pity the poor sods:)

LOL...Haha..

[think_too_mut]

This is what women activists in Kiev (Ukraine) did in response to government encouragement of low cost airlines and fun seeking sex toursis they ferry in and out.

The banners say (as I could understand):

Left: Sex is not merchandise (in terms - not something that can be loaded on a truck and traded away)

Middle: Ukraine Whore House - NO! (it's in Turkish, which the largest destination for women trafficking out of Ukraine)

Right: I am not selling myself

This is the real poverty, much worse than in parts of Thailand + it gets as cold as -30C and has 6 months winters. One winter like that would whipe out half Thai population.

Ukraininan poverty - pdf and pics

[thaiaway]

Conclusion: It's only when you take away the welfare state that young women start marrying old guys they don't like.

Augh come-on now, are you saying that in the west money doesn't buy younger partners. Just look at the movie- pop-stars and other filthy rich. Just look at Hugh Heffner. Makes a big difference if you drive a Ferrari or any other very expensive car, for picking up girls.

I can think of better things to do than to compare everything in Thailand to our moral standards (if we have any).

my 2 cents

onzestan

Don't agree. Movis stars and many of the filthy rich are filthy rich for a reason, they have something to offer to a lot of people. Unless you get born rich it takes lots of work, skills and personality to get rich, which is attractive qualities to most people. Also the rich have power which last time i checked females are attracted too. So not same same. You could live on benefits in Thailand and still be considered rich by some people, but that doesnt mean you have attractive qualities.

[mrcheshire]

Plus movie star tend to shy away from girls with no higher than 3rd grad e education.

What are these farangs thinking of when the say i do to poor, non educated, multiple kidded, poor women off the beatn path.

I see where the girls are coming from, just cant see what a man would want with them.

[PhilHarries]

I'd guess, might be wrong though, that mrcheshire has never been near Cheshire or, if he has, he never stayed long.

Anyhow, to attempt to explain some of the reasoning why farang men marry poorly educated girls with children from pevious marriages and who may have ended up working the bars to make ends meet. Apologies in advance for the gross generalisation in the following paragraphs but I am trying to get a general point over.

Western women expect, nay demand, a great degree of equality in a relationship and eventually marriage. They are not happy if the man goes down the pub drinking with his mates 3 or 4 nights a week. They are not happy if the man slumps in front of the TV every night while she cooks dinner and does the washing up. She is not happy if the man does not at least help out from time to time with the household chores. The man is expected to contribute to the looking after of any children from the beginning including such activities as nappy changing.

Thai (Asian) women expect to do all the cooking, cleaning, baby sitting etc etc in order to keep their husband happy. In fact if the old man spends all his evenings slumped in front of the TV set that is seen as a good point, at least he's not out drinking and womanising.

Therefore many western men fall in with Thai women and cannot believe how good their life becomes. They can become couch potatos and they can go out on the p1ss with their mates. After they've had enough the little lady is dutifully waiting at home with open arms ready to take care of his every need. Not only that, she doesn't bother him with awkward questions like "where did you go last night?" or "who's perfume does your shirt collar stink of this morning?".

Of course, as I said at the beginning, this is a gross generalisation and there are Thai women, even amongst the poorly educated, who do not accept this kind of behaviour just the same as there are western women who are doormats.

And on top of this even an ugly western man with moderate financial assets gets to feel like a rock star however false that feeling is.

[barky]

In my country, in he main, they would mind their own dam_n busniess, get on with their own life, not stick their nose into other people's business, not be so judgemental, have better things to do with their time, and generally expect to be told to F*** O** if they made some stupid comment or stared rudly at a mixed race couple. They would generally have the view of live and let live. This is the attitude one would expect from a mature, non racist non xenophobic society.

[dutchguest]

Compared to women in *some* Muslim countries, OK. Compared to women in "Western" countries -- I think not. There are many contradictions, but I think for Thai women, engaging in sex before marriage, for example, is still considered "bad". Why are Thai men not keen to marry divorced Thai women ? What about the emphasis on female virginity ? Is it very common for married Thai women to have a "minor husband"? And so on ...

I think some Westerners like to think some kinds of behaviours are acceptable in Thai culture when the absolute reverse is true.

There is a theory that the transition from more female domination with common property to more male domination goes via the dowry and the accumulation of property (cattle etc.) in certain families, where all kind of sexual restrictions are introduced to keep the property within the family. They become the tribeleaders and later the feudal landlords. (See: The sexual life of savages in North Western Melanesia, by B.Malinowski). This is a development witch favors man, e.g. to have more than one woman. One of the landlords becomes king, first of a citystate, later of a centralised state. This is how I see the development in a nutshell.

Now, especially in the west, the development goes from male domination to more equality, e.g. woman voting rights are not so long ago (in Holland). With this more equality also the sexual restrictions become less. In the west homosexuals become more accepted, sex before marriage becomes less a problem etc. In this most recent developments Thailand may be a little bit behind the west.

This is what women activists in Kiev (Ukraine) did in response to government encouragement of low cost airlines and fun seeking sex toursis they ferry in and out.

The banners say (as I could understand):

Left: Sex is not merchandise (in terms - not something that can be loaded on a truck and traded away)

Middle: Ukraine Whore House - NO! (it's in Turkish, which the largest destination for women trafficking out of Ukraine)

Right: I am not selling myself

This is the real poverty, much worse than in parts of Thailand + it gets as cold as -30C and has 6 months winters. One winter like that would whipe out half Thai population.

Ukraininan poverty - pdf and pics

I have been in Turkey and in Trabzon there were many Russian prostitutes, called Natasjas. Human traffic and coercion is another story. Sex gets a more grim face, while in Thailand, at least superficial, my general impression is that of more freedom and sanuk.

[mrcheshire]

[quote name='dutchguest Sex gets a more grim face, while in Thailand, at least superficial, my general impression is that of more freedom and sanuk.

Not only an impression by you sir. It is fact and backed up by scientific evidence!

[sylviex]

This is becoming quite scholarly .

(Wouldn't be allowed to call people savages now !)

There is a theory that the transition from more female domination with common property to more male domination goes via the dowry and the accumulation of property (cattle etc.) in certain families, where all kind of sexual restrictions are introduced to keep the property within the family. They become the tribeleaders and later the feudal landlords. (See: The sexual life of savages in North Western Melanesia, by B.Malinowski). This is a development witch favors man, e.g. to have more than one woman. One of the landlords becomes king, first of a citystate, later of a centralised state. This is how I see the development in a nutshell.

This all makes sense.

Now, especially in the west, the development goes from male domination to more equality, e.g. woman voting rights are not so long ago (in Holland). With this more equality also the sexual restrictions become less. In the west homosexuals become more accepted, sex before marriage becomes less a problem etc. In this most recent developments Thailand may be a little bit behind the west.

In Australia, voting rights for women came early -- from 1880. (Interesting website: womenshistory.about.com/od/suffrage/a/intl_timeline.htm )

Rights for women in Thailand ? In some respects, this might happen quite quickly, but in other ways that seems unlikely. Don't know.

I have been in Turkey and in Trabzon there were many Russian prostitutes, called Natasjas. Human traffic and coercion is another story. Sex gets a more grim face, while in Thailand, at least superficial, my general impression is that of more freedom and sanuk.

Difficult to know. That's the "face" it seems to wear in some areas but, of course, the realities of that line of work are often very unpleasant. And if you read the "Clothes in Bed" thread you'll see a strong suggestion that some foreigners view "regular" Thais as somewhat prudish.

Edited August 18, 2008 by sylviex

[lifeisrandom]

"Sex gets a more grim face, while in Thailand, at least superficial, my general impression is that of more freedom and sanuk."

is this a joke? think about how you would feel to make love with a women 25 years older than you. disgusted?

that is probably how she feels...

[Heng]

There's an air of freedom and sanuk in Prague as well.

[farang prince]

If only the usa would be so lucky to have uk men come in and search for wives in harlem, south central la, poor chicago slums it would be greatly appreciated. Drop their life savings and then leave the usa would be a better place.

Classic Cheshire. Well said.

[sonofdon]

"Sex gets a more grim face, while in Thailand, at least superficial, my general impression is that of more freedom and sanuk."

is this a joke? think about how you would feel to make love with a women 25 years older than you. disgusted?

that is probably how she feels...

mr life

what are you even doing in thailand? say the avg age of male tourist is 35 you think he going to barfine a 60 year old thai chick for his evenings fun? they go for the young ones who outwardly look like they are having a ball. once behind closed doors no guarantees though

[HASSELHOFF]

In my country, in he main, they would mind their own dam_n busniess, get on with their own life, not stick their nose into other people's business, not be so judgemental, have better things to do with their time, and generally expect to be told to F*** O** if they made some stupid comment or stared rudly at a mixed race couple. They would generally have the view of live and let live. This is the attitude one would expect from a mature, non racist non xenophobic society.

And what planet is this place. I would love to go there

[chiangmaibruce]

I believe the biggest contributing factor is that there are no sexual taboo's in Buddhism. S&x is something to be enjoyed, not

to be (obligatory) confessed to the local priest with all its implications.

onzestan

Try this on instead ...

"Like all religions, Buddhism takes a strong ethical stand in human affairs and sexual behaviour in particular. The most common formulation of Buddhist ethics are the five precents:

1. Refraining from harming living beings/practising loving kindness

2. Refraining from taking the non-given/practising generosity

3. Refraining from committing sexual misconduct/practising contentment

4. Refraining from false speech/practising truthful communication

5. Refraining from intoxicants/practising mindfulness.

The five precepts constitute an integrated set - each precept supports the others. To know what 'sexual misconduct' means you look at the other precepts. 'Sexual misconduct', in the spirit of the precepts as a job lot, means any sexual conduct involving violence, manipulation or deceit - conduct that therefore leads to suffering and trouble. By contrast good sexual conduct is based on loving kindness, generosity, honesty, and mental and emotional clarity - conduct that has good results."

[lifeisrandom]

"Sex gets a more grim face, while in Thailand, at least superficial, my general impression is that of more freedom and sanuk."

is this a joke? think about how you would feel to make love with a women 25 years older than you. disgusted?

that is probably how she feels...

mr life

what are you even doing in thailand? say the avg age of male tourist is 35 you think he going to barfine a 60 year old thai chick for his evenings fun? they go for the young ones who outwardly look like they are having a ball. once behind closed doors no guarantees though

you have bad reading comprehension

many on this forum are convinced that they are god's gift to thai women and that its like they are back in high school and its 1962 and they are meeting the thai girls at the local hamburger soda pop cafe and everyone is just soooooo happy

the thai girls pretend to be happy because that is what you are paying them for

so you claim that there is an air of sanook and freedom in thailand unlike all the other places but this just naivety

there is only those getting fuc_ked and those paying for the pleasure of fuc_king them

i am not making moral judgements obviously its better to not be the one getting fuc_ked

lets just not delude ourselves on how much fun they are having in their profession screwing over weight farang - okay?

[John_Rambo]

Like women all over the world, the majority of young Thai women are not attracted to old ugly men, but some of them will make compromises for the money they can obtain. Anyone thinking that this is enjoyable to them, or that this is really how they would want their lives to be is deluded, and probably one of the many exploiters of the economic conditions that exist here.

Edited August 18, 2008 by John_Rambo

[Heng]

Well geez, that's not a very sanuk attitude.

[sonofdon]

Whats up with these downers. They trying to ruin thailands reputattion or what?

[lifeisrandom]

i did not mean to be a downer its just that us young guys have to keep the old guys in line, we cant have them running wild talking about young girls liking them and stuff.

[Thai at Heart]

Another factor to consider is the children. If the man is very much older, there is a good chance he will not be able to parent them as actively as a younger man and that he will die before the children grow up.

I know that in many cultures, other family members will step in, but having a close relationship with both parents is something quite special and precious, as is observing a happy, healthy relationship between one's parents.

The old guy's sperm might be faulty, too .

But, the kids would be expected to take care of mum, irrespective of whether she had cash or not. This situation has been going on for generations the world over, it is just that we see it far more frequently in Thailand because the wealth of the country doesn't allow everyone to be able to take care of themselves.

Do you hear of Japanses or Korean girls marrying older western men for cash?

[PhilHarries]

i did not mean to be a downer its just that us young guys have to keep the old guys in line, we cant have them running wild talking about young girls liking them and stuff.

Wassup, can't keep up can you? Try Kamagra, I'm told it's good for that.

[Crushdepth]

What would be the reactions in your homecountry if thousends of more or less old, rich foreign man would come to your country and marry with more or less young, poor girls from your country?

How would people look at this?

"Thank God we got rid of those dole bludgers".

[lifeisrandom]

i did not mean to be a downer its just that us young guys have to keep the old guys in line, we cant have them running wild talking about young girls liking them and stuff.

Wassup, can't keep up can you? Try Kamagra, I'm told it's good for that.

im all good mister my body is like a natural viagra water fountain, i orgasm and i am hard again in about 8 minutes.

[Heng]

ThaiVisa, the family oriented forum.

[faranglandoz]

What would be the reactions in your homecountry if thousends of more or less old, rich foreign man would come to your country and marry with more or less young, poor girls from your country?

How would people look at this?

I don't think many "poor" Australian girls would be interested. They have other dreams and other options and would see many disadvantages to marriage with a much older person, if financial gain were the only motive.

One exceptional group might be girls living in extremely disadvantaged indigenous communities. This would soon produce some interesting reactions.

You think rich old fat Poms would come and marry our beautiful young Aboriginal girls

Faranglandoz

[Shotime]

i did not mean to be a downer its just that us young guys have to keep the old guys in line, we cant have them running wild talking about young girls liking them and stuff.

Wassup, can't keep up can you? Try Kamagra, I'm told it's good for that.

im all good mister my body is like a natural viagra water fountain, i orgasm and i am hard again in about 8 minutes.

If it takes 8 minutes, how much of that time is spent having sex?