State Of Emergency Announced In Bangkok

[Tony Clifton]

[Tony Clifton]

"armed to the teeth"... usually those description refer to firearms or at least something more like this...

I'm sure you would be equally amused if the PAD thugs smacked you on the head with it SJ?

Big knives make good photos but the story line someone was trying to give us is that the band of thugs who took over Government House were unarmed, peaceful protesters.

There are hundreds of media pictures out there that show they were anything but unarmed or peaceful.

There are firsthand reports from Bloomberg and other reporters the night of the confrontation of bullets flying by them coming from the Government House toward the AAD mob.

PAD is for the most part armed and paid by the royalist/military/Bangkok elite who wish to overthrow an elected government and install their own henchmen to continue looting the government. Anything else is just fluff to disguise their motives.

~WISteve

I like dity politics and I like to play dirty.

If I were PAD, I would hire some trouble maker to dress in red and swing some big weapons around infront of the (foreign) camera-man. If I pro-govt, I would do the same, just switch the dress to yellow. It should only cost a few thousand baht per actor.

I am sure that both sides have already thought of that.

FAKE!

here some more photo from the fake session.

that picture of somchai machete is 100% staged and faked. that are just a few actors given brand new red shirts to pose with weapons to make "good" picture. perfect example how propaganda works and how pictures can lie.

just look at the time of the day the pictures have been made. do you see the sky in the background? it is dawn, but not at night time.

you see all the photographers/reporters sourround them?

ever seen those machete boys in action, in other situations?

for me it looks like a stupid stage play with poorly costumed actors.

there have been enough evidence and pictures posted how heavy armed the PAD pirates are. pictures from different dates, locations, events. i am not going to repeat to post them. flooding this thread is the style of other posters.

for the prove of violence of DAAD the picture of somchai machete and his friend with the slingshot, the same picture, got posted again and again.

i pointed out why i disbelieve those pictures. i recommend to take a closer look at them. a closer look you should take at many " news", "messages" and so on. from both sides. don't believe everything you have been told. think for yourself!

tony c, john, can you follow my arguments? have an opinion?

if you use yourself dodgy and questionable "evidence" like this, all of your points become noncredible and implausible.

have you any interest to find the truth? or play you just a propaganda game?

In which magazine/newspaper where these photos published?

sriracha john claims "his" photo, the first one, the super dramatic one, comes from Reuters. but he can not prove it.

and actually it is not from reuters. i checked with Reuters and it is not from them. sriracha john lies if he say it is from Reuters.

"my" photos i found on a proPAD Cultist thai blog. and got taken aback by the simple fact how much a photo can manipulate our mind.

press photos got taken as images of reality, but are they actually one?

the first one, i admit a cool and perfect picture, pulsating, full of dynamic, movement, the composition. could get a price and would be all perfect if this would maybe a moment in time from a sports event.

but is it a documentary report with a unbias view on reality or is this picture very manipulating?

somchai machete looks so brute, threatening, dangerous, a sick piece of criminal with his murder weapon. right?

all the orchestration cave in if you see the same situation from another angle. the important second view.

somchai machete lost all his dynamic and so the picture if you see that is not from the war zone, the front. suddenly somchai machete looks like a muppet in front of dozens of photographers.

but this is not the real reality you see printed in the magazines. i saw similar situation from the intifada per example. on view 'young boy stone throwing' , the 2nd nonpublished, non-printed view the boy stone throwing in front of dozens photographers, like on a press conference.

another poster pointed out that it have been not the first time Reuters got caught with dodgy photos.

this time we can not blame Reuters, because it isn't a Reuters photo.

but keep in mind, don't believe everything you see. take a second and a closer look.

thanks for post, helps to sort out propaganda from facts...

My opinion is that someone trying to deconstruct these photos with no concrete proof and others cheering him helps to sort out DAAD apologists.

[AlKing]

"armed to the teeth"... usually those description refer to firearms or at least something more like this...

I'm sure you would be equally amused if the PAD thugs smacked you on the head with it SJ?

Big knives make good photos but the story line someone was trying to give us is that the band of thugs who took over Government House were unarmed, peaceful protesters.

There are hundreds of media pictures out there that show they were anything but unarmed or peaceful.

There are firsthand reports from Bloomberg and other reporters the night of the confrontation of bullets flying by them coming from the Government House toward the AAD mob.

PAD is for the most part armed and paid by the royalist/military/Bangkok elite who wish to overthrow an elected government and install their own henchmen to continue looting the government. Anything else is just fluff to disguise their motives.

~WISteve

I like dity politics and I like to play dirty.

If I were PAD, I would hire some trouble maker to dress in red and swing some big weapons around infront of the (foreign) camera-man. If I pro-govt, I would do the same, just switch the dress to yellow. It should only cost a few thousand baht per actor.

I am sure that both sides have already thought of that.

FAKE!

here some more photo from the fake session.

that picture of somchai machete is 100% staged and faked. that are just a few actors given brand new red shirts to pose with weapons to make "good" picture. perfect example how propaganda works and how pictures can lie.

just look at the time of the day the pictures have been made. do you see the sky in the background? it is dawn, but not at night time.

you see all the photographers/reporters sourround them?

ever seen those machete boys in action, in other situations?

for me it looks like a stupid stage play with poorly costumed actors.

there have been enough evidence and pictures posted how heavy armed the PAD pirates are. pictures from different dates, locations, events. i am not going to repeat to post them. flooding this thread is the style of other posters.

for the prove of violence of DAAD the picture of somchai machete and his friend with the slingshot, the same picture, got posted again and again.

i pointed out why i disbelieve those pictures. i recommend to take a closer look at them. a closer look you should take at many " news", "messages" and so on. from both sides. don't believe everything you have been told. think for yourself!

tony c, john, can you follow my arguments? have an opinion?

if you use yourself dodgy and questionable "evidence" like this, all of your points become noncredible and implausible.

have you any interest to find the truth? or play you just a propaganda game?

In which magazine/newspaper where these photos published?

sriracha john claims "his" photo, the first one, the super dramatic one, comes from Reuters. but he can not prove it.

and actually it is not from reuters. i checked with Reuters and it is not from them. sriracha john lies if he say it is from Reuters.

"my" photos i found on a proPAD Cultist thai blog. and got taken aback by the simple fact how much a photo can manipulate our mind.

press photos got taken as images of reality, but are they actually one?

the first one, i admit a cool and perfect picture, pulsating, full of dynamic, movement, the composition. could get a price and would be all perfect if this would maybe a moment in time from a sports event.

but is it a documentary report with a unbias view on reality or is this picture very manipulating?

somchai machete looks so brute, threatening, dangerous, a sick piece of criminal with his murder weapon. right?

all the orchestration cave in if you see the same situation from another angle. the important second view.

somchai machete lost all his dynamic and so the picture if you see that is not from the war zone, the front. suddenly somchai machete looks like a muppet in front of dozens of photographers.

but this is not the real reality you see printed in the magazines. i saw similar situation from the intifada per example. on view 'young boy stone throwing' , the 2nd nonpublished, non-printed view the boy stone throwing in front of dozens photographers, like on a press conference.

another poster pointed out that it have been not the first time Reuters got caught with dodgy photos.

this time we can not blame Reuters, because it isn't a Reuters photo.

but keep in mind, don't believe everything you see. take a second and a closer look.

thanks for post, helps to sort out propaganda from facts...

My opinion is that someone trying to deconstruct these photos with no concrete proof and others cheering him helps to sort out DAAD apologists.

REAL

Remember when Chaiyan Chaiyaporn of Chulalongkorn University's Faculty of Political Science ripping ballots. The photo shot was perfect. Why? Because cameraman was pre-arranged, so that the photo can be circulated in the media to make a political point. (Just Google his name to get the photo)

I have no doubt that these photos of heavily armed maniacs are real and staged in front of cameraman especially for the press.

My question is, who paid these actors? PAD or DAAD?

[permanent_disorder]

Would you guys get off it, with the pictures? I'm sure some of you seen it live on TV, just like I did. There is no doubt whatsoever that it happened. There was what looked to me as an angry, riled up DAAD mob, who was armed with machetties, sticks, bats, etc., marching towards the PAD camp, breaking through the police barricade (if you really want to call it that, because the police just moved aside for them to pass), throwing things and storming towards the PAD barricades, that is what I seen with my own eyes. Why anybody would want to deny the truth, is beyond me. I have no reason to make this up. I seen it.

Some of the reporters later commented, that the DAAD mob smelled of alcohol and that a lot of them where drunk. That part, I wouldn't be able to confirm, because I wasn't there to smell them, but it sure looked like some of them where, when they marched against the PAD.

There seems to be a real effort to turn black into white in this forum. I don't get it. I guess I was starting out with the assumption, that we are all mature adults in here.

is that "i saw it on television" the new fad of the PAD cult? sondhis Volksempfänger.

as far as i remember you told us that you don't understand what is said on television and you turn the audio off and listen to music instead.

i also remember that you keep repeating the false information that a PAD cultist was killed. even at a time when corrected reports have been out.

until the PAD cultists hold a minute of silence it's was murder for you. later just a case of own fault.

and where the reports of drunken mob came from? i only read it on TV forum. another case of lapse and false memory we can see here also by other proPAD cultist on TVforum?

again it is you trying to draw a black and white picture. as a mature and adult you should have finally realised that you can not put all the blame on team red alone.

both sides are flawed. flawed to an extrem.

and your biased proPADcult post are opinions of a narrow minded cultist.

but who hits who with more deadly weapons is not so important like the political agenda and program of the PAD cult.

the political and economical concept of the PAD cult got criticised and reviewed. but that got ignored by the proPAD cultists. the is a lack of intelligent response by the proPAD cultists. instead only infantile flood post with samak pictures that proves nothing or are somewhat news whorty.

or you telling your story of what you believe that you saw it on television. and everytime it change a little bit. other proPAD cultists like tony c. see thing which are not visible. he see helmets where are no helmets.

you keep going to praise those PAD cult unions, but without any reasons. in a discussion of mature adults those unions you mentioned so often are on topic. you got invited to take part, to share your view and opinion as a mature adult http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Pad-Labour-Unions-t211062.html but there is no response coming from you. but you keep going to praise the PAD cult unions, who are full of flaws and you don't have any counter evidence or any opinion like a educated adult should have.

HELLO! the PAD cult want cancel democrazy. sure it's not perfect how it's going on here, but democracy is a evoluntionary process. a politic of small steps, of try and of course errors, errors can be corrected with elections. again i recommend karl popper: The Open Society and Its Enemies. an influental book, a standard work on totalitarism. a base to talk about this issue in a manner of educated adults. the PAD cult want to close the door to democracy for ever. the want close the door to an interational process called globalisation. they want conserve the influence and assets of an upper middle class who somewhat amazing made it into the second modernity. now they cause some stir out of minor flaws of a beginning democracy and want restore everything back to a pre-modernity.

by the time you can see it on television the PAD cult openly announce their new enemy - the foreigner. yes, you. they will give a shit about you singing proPAD cult mantras. their esoteric lunacy is only for the ones of pure blood. bye, bye kurt they will close the door for you too.

beside your beliefs of what you saw on television try to get a direction with the opinion of an academic:

"It’s really backward and reactionary. It’s a conservative idea that tries to undermine electoral politics. Everybody knows that electoral politics has problems, including empowering certain groups over others. What the PAD proposes is definitely not the way forward.

Democracy is based on the principle that electoral power comes from the people. The PAD is entitled to attack the elections, but their solution is not the way to empower the people more, bur will instead empower certain groups of people, hence returning to the ‘elitist politics.

But the PAD is trying to escalate the polarization into violence, like when the PAD leaders speak on stage, calling on patriotic soldiers to come out. That is dangerous. It’s a problem of the PAD that they cannot discern that that would only serve themselves, not society".

Sirote Klampaiboon, a PhD candidate of the Political Science Faculty of Hawaii University

http://www.prachatai.com/english/news.php?id=694

[madi]

Thailand is not now nor has it ever been democratic.

Democracy is based upon rule of the people.

[ubonjoe]

Army chief urges cancellation of state of emergency

By The Nation

The situation remains under control and police could keep peace, hence a state of emergency in Bangkok should be revoked, Army chief General Anupong Paochinda said on Thursday.

Anupong said caretaker Prime Minister Somchai Wongsawat should take prompt action to lift the emergency measures.

He said the enforcement of emergency decree is unnecessary because social order could be maintained by existing laws and soldiers could be deployed as back-up forces in case of unforeseen circumstances.

Anupong also expressed his support for the formation of a national government in order to overcome the political turmoil.

Anupong conceded that the idea might be difficult to materialise unless parties concerned abandoned their partisan interests.

The trouble will persist if political parties don't make sacrifices, he said.

He said he anticipates that the naming of the next prime minister would be crucial on whether the country could achieve a conflict resolution.

The Nation

[AlKing]

Army chief urges cancellation of state of emergency

By The Nation

The situation remains under control and police could keep peace, hence a state of emergency in Bangkok should be revoked, Army chief General Anupong Paochinda said on Thursday.

Anupong said caretaker Prime Minister Somchai Wongsawat should take prompt action to lift the emergency measures.

He said the enforcement of emergency decree is unnecessary because social order could be maintained by existing laws and soldiers could be deployed as back-up forces in case of unforeseen circumstances. (Is the protest legal now, and the 9 leaders been arrested?)

Anupong also expressed his support for the formation of a national government in order to overcome the political turmoil.

Anupong conceded that the idea might be difficult to materialise unless parties concerned abandoned their partisan interests.

The trouble will persist if political parties don't make sacrifices, he said. (What about sacrifices from PAD?)

He said he anticipates that the naming of the next prime minister would be crucial on whether the country could achieve a conflict resolution.

The Nation

IMHO, SoE should remains.

[Meerkat]

Plus,You talk about the people electing their own representatives: Sondhi talks about the people having their own representatives appointed for them. The crux of his argument is that the people cannot be trusted to vote responsibly - now rephrased as the people do not have the right information to be able to vote responsibly (I assume, only partly in jest, that it will be enshrined that ASTV be piped into every home in the land). This is a fundamental difference between your system and his proposed one.

Bear in mind too that you seem to think that the public will be involved in devising the new system. The PAD has said that they will not deal with supporters of the present government in the matter. So quite how that will provide an equitable system of government when around half the electorate don't get a say in it's formation I don't know.

A timely article in today's Nation quotes:

"PAD leader Sondhi Limthongkul believes that New Politics would end the vicious cycle of money politics in which politicians buy votes to give them an easy ticket to power. Since the votes of the majority of the population, especially the poor and uneducated, are easy to buy, the elite would be able to choose good people to run country.

Though there are many PAD leaders who do not fully agree with Sondhi, they don't know how to express their objections. One PAD leader said New Politics was still an electoral and democratic system that was based on proportional quota allocated for professional associations.

"For example, journalists could cast votes among themselves to have representatives in Parliament," the leader said on condition of anonymity."

So it seems that we're both right: it's Sondhi and the hard-liners in the PAD that want selection, whilst a more liberal faction (that's scared of speaking out publicly) wants a system of the kind you're advocating, perhaps similar in structure to Hong Kong's (which the majority there would rather was not).

[The articles regarding Sondhi's talks post-coup are on the New Mandala site (both from Seattle and London's SOAS). I won't link to them as frankly some of the post-article comments from people are sensitive (legally).]

[Nampeung]

Keeping fingers and toes crossed for a news only thread :D

[Plus]

Hopefully neither PAD nor PPP will be involved in rewriting the constutution to include "new politics". Hopefully "national unity" government sets up an independent drafting committee for that purpose.

I see very little difference between people proposing their reperesentatives for selection or directly voting for them - it's the overall quality of candidates that would make a difference, not the final choice.

From a practical point of view selection is easier and less troublesome - those "functional" consituencies are not properly organised yet, their members are not registered, and no one knows who gets the voting rights. For them it's easier to agree on a shortlist than run transparent internal elections. Don't forget that there could be a hundred of them.

As for people not voting responsibly - that's the design flaw problem that "new politics" can solve, I hope. At the moment people are not connected to their MPs in any meaningful way, they naturally don't feel responsible cos their voice doesn't matter at all.

Ten years ago it was for the best local guy, whatever party he belongs to, now it's for the best party, whoever runs locally.

At the moment it's all about handing out your responsiblity to someone else rather than taking charge yourself.

[kurtgruen]

Thailand is not now nor has it ever been democratic.

Democracy is based upon rule of the people.

Exactly! Short and sweet and to the point. Thank you!

[Nampeung]

Samak Accept Position as PM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7609705.stm

[Gnarpjohan]

Thailand is not now nor has it ever been democratic.

Democracy is based upon rule of the people.

Exactly! Short and sweet and to the point. Thank you!

The people behind PAD apparently think Thailand has become far too democratic, which is a problem they intend to do away with. Yelllow shirts and everyone else is so corrupt, let's tear it all down! More power to the privileged! And then there will be la-la land!

That second sentence "democracy is based upon the rule of the people" is sth you PAD-supporters should think hard about.

Some of the worst movements I can think of flourished on general, popular disappointment with the states of things. As far as PAD goes: a tougher stand on everything corrupt: great, much needed! Exactly how the corrupt head yellow-shirts will achieve any results here is unclear however. Sorry, but I fear there would be no improvement with a Sondhi as head of government. Doing away with one-person-one-vote: disaster! But please crack down on vote-buying.

Still, the often repeated claim that the PPP-dominated government is a result of vote buying - is a myth as far as I can see. The military did what they could to prevent a fair campaign, yet the TRT-fractions won the election.

There is no respect for the little man in Thailand, that is the real issue.

To allow for real democracy, the privileged need to learn to respect the little man's vote. Before that happens, it's all coups and counter-coups.

[kurtgruen]

To allow for real democracy, the privileged need to learn to respect the little man's vote.

I agree totally. So when is Thailand going to have a system in which the "little man's" vote is respected. We sure don't have it now. The so-called "little man" (which I assume, you mean the poor, the downtrotten, the abused the tortured, the falsly imprisoned, the people with little or no hope for a better future for themselves and their families) is being manipulated. He/she has nobody to vote for, who will truly stand up for them.

Thai Politics are filled with corruption, have only catered to the rich, except for a few crumbs thrown to the poor, to stop them from rising up. This country is ready for a change. Nobody can guarantee, that the change will be positive for the "little man", but the current system is definitely not working. I think that most of us, on either side of the arguments in this forum, can agree on that.

Same old, is just not good enough anymore.

I am encouraged, that social issues are starting to surface. I am also encouraged, that a lot of poor, students and Unions are getting involved, because if things do change, then just maybe, they will have a little more voice in Thai politics in the future.

I have no idea, how all this will turn out. I just hope and pray, that it will all end peacefully. I also hope, that the "little man" will have more of a voice after this conflict and that there will be less corruption in Thai politics.

I support the PAD, because they don't claim to have all the answers, but want open dialoge. I support them because they want to bring down a corrupt government, along with maybe a corrupt system. I support them, because, they prove, that when democracy doesn't work, there are other peaceful ways, to get it back on track. I support them, because they are against media suppression. I also support them, because I am a Union member and am opposed to the privatization attempts of the current government.

I do hope, that the so-called "little man, woman and child" will have their voice heard and that there will be positive, real changes, for the poor and abused in this country.

I'm off to dinner (because I am lucky enough to have money to buy food, unlike many citizens in Thailand today)

[Plus]

There is no respect for the little man in Thailand, that is the real issue.

Yeah, like Thaksin made a phone call and appointed the Prime Minister, to hel_l with the rest of Thailand.

[Moonrakers]

There is no respect for the little man in Thailand, that is the real issue.

Yeah, like Thaksin made a phone call and appointed the Prime Minister, to hel_l with the rest of Thailand.

But lets not forget that they HAD to ask him because he is still a Thai citizen......... My wife is still waiting for the call to be asked her opinion.

[LaoPo]

1. So when is Thailand going to have a system in which the "little man's" vote is respected. We sure don't have it now. The so-called "little man" (which I assume, you mean the poor, the downtrotten, the abused the tortured, the falsly imprisoned, the people with little or no hope for a better future for themselves and their families) is being manipulated. He/she has nobody to vote for, who will truly stand up for them.

2. I support the PAD, because they don't claim to have all the answers, but want open dialoge. I support them because they want to bring down a corrupt government, along with maybe a corrupt system. I support them, because, they prove, that when democracy doesn't work, there are other peaceful ways, to get it back on track. I support them, because they are against media suppression. I also support them, because I am a Union member and am opposed to the privatization attempts of the current government.

I do hope, that the so-called "little man, woman and child" will have their voice heard and that there will be positive, real changes, for the poor and abused in this country.

1. Not with the PAD

2. I'm surprised you support the PAD, read: Sondhi. Support a PAD who wants a 70:30 power installation; 70 appointed (by WHOM ?) and 30 elected (without the votes of uneducated rural poor )

Better study his past; if you think he's doing what he's doing for the benefit of the (rural poor) people of Thailand you're dead wrong.

Sorry to say so.

Have a nice dinner !

LaoPo

[Plus]

Support a PAD who wants a 70:30 power installation; 70 appointed (by WHOM ?) and 30 elected (without the votes of uneducated rural poor )

Better study his past;

Better pay more attention to the present - it's not appointed by WHOM that is the quesiton, but selected FROM whom.

Also "without the votes" is nonsense - nowhere in the proposal they mention stripping anyone of the right to vote. NOWHERE.

[Pierrot]

I support the PAD, because they don't claim to have all the answers, but want open dialoge.

Mob power is not open dialogue

I support them because they want to bring down a corrupt government, along with maybe a corrupt system.

"bring down" is the operative word here. For a real constructive force it would be "built", whatever you want, but built something. Nobody prospers in chaos

I support them, because, they prove, that when democracy doesn't work, there are other peaceful ways, to get it back on track.

"peaceful" ? are we really talking about the same people?

I support them, because they are against media suppression. I also support them, because I am a Union member and am opposed to the privatization attempts of the current government.

One of the biggest victim of the current events is the press, especially the english press. They have lost all their credibility, in Thailand and everywhere else in the world.

I do hope, that the so-called "little man, woman and child" will have their voice heard and that there will be positive, real changes, for the poor and abused in this country.

Actually they do, but other people don't like what they hear.

I'm off to dinner (because I am lucky enough to have money to buy food, unlike many citizens in Thailand today)

Bon appetit !

[Gnarpjohan]

To allow for real democracy, the privileged need to learn to respect the little man's vote.

I agree totally. So when is Thailand going to have a system in which the "little man's" vote is respected. We sure don't have it now. The so-called "little man" (which I assume, you mean the poor, the downtrotten, the abused the tortured, the falsly imprisoned, the people with little or no hope for a better future for themselves and their families)

I had basically everyone in mind who are not part of the so-called "elite" (I don't like that term much): factory workers, farmers, maids...normal mainly rural folks. The majority. Not so much tortured or falsely imprisoned.

It bugs me when some in the "elite" argue that the majority of people are so easy to mislead, like sheep. The farmer family I know best typically promise to vote for whoever wants their vote and then actually vote for the politician who is most aligned with their interest. In last's week's (local) puyay baan election this was the candidate neighbor who promised a pipe to the municipal water supply and was most likely to deliver on the promise. Naive, they are not - know quite well who is most likely to work in their interest. I claim that this is true for national elections as well.

Not in favor of some 30:70 or 50:50 policy. It should be one person, one vote or forget it.

[LaoPo]

Support a PAD who wants a 70:30 power installation; 70 appointed (by WHOM ?) and 30 elected (without the votes of uneducated rural poor )

Better study his past;

Better pay more attention to the present - it's not appointed by WHOM that is the quesiton, but selected FROM whom.

Also "without the votes" is nonsense - nowhere in the proposal they mention stripping anyone of the right to vote. NOWHERE.

I'm utterly surprised, almost shocked, that a well informed and intelligent poster like yourself says something like you just did....And THAT is exactly the danger with a man like Sondhi; he wants his supporters to believe what he says, or claims, being the ULTIMATE TRUTH...

Read for yourself (there are more reports of the kind...)

Thai protest leader wants to reduce voters' power

September 4, just a week ago:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080904/ap_on_...bting_democracy

LaoPo

[blaze]

Support a PAD who wants a 70:30 power installation; 70 appointed (by WHOM ?) and 30 elected (without the votes of uneducated rural poor )

Better study his past;

Better pay more attention to the present - it's not appointed by WHOM that is the quesiton, but selected FROM whom.

Also "without the votes" is nonsense - nowhere in the proposal they mention stripping anyone of the right to vote. NOWHERE.

By 'whom' is very much the question- it is central to the entire question.

I might be wrong- but I believe neither the Nazis nor the Stalinists appointed sector delegates- they were elected in both cases by their peers.

(If I'm wrong, please correct me).

[h90]

Support a PAD who wants a 70:30 power installation; 70 appointed (by WHOM ?) and 30 elected (without the votes of uneducated rural poor )

Better study his past;

Better pay more attention to the present - it's not appointed by WHOM that is the quesiton, but selected FROM whom.

Also "without the votes" is nonsense - nowhere in the proposal they mention stripping anyone of the right to vote. NOWHERE.

By 'whom' is very much the question- it is central to the entire question.

I might be wrong- but I believe neither the Nazis nor the Stalinists appointed sector delegates- they were elected in both cases by their peers.

(If I'm wrong, please correct me).

Italy had such a system and Austria before Hitler came. Actually it doesn't need to be undemocratic.

Instead one area votes for their 3 people, they only vote for 1 person.

but for example the labor unions vote inside their union one person to send there, so that person is also elected by an part of the population.

But I still don't like it very much

[thaigene2]

Worse than a coup

Sep 4th 2008

From The Economist print edition

An authoritarian rabble should not be allowed to turf out a deeply flawed but popularly elected government

STANDING up for democracy sometimes entails standing up for some unappealing democrats. Thailand's pugnacious prime minister, Samak Sundaravej, is an especially hard man to defend. A ferocious rightist, Mr Samak was accused of inciting the policemen and vigilantes who slaughtered dozens of unarmed student protesters in Bangkok in 1976. On becoming prime minister following the election last December that restored democratic rule after a 2006 coup, Mr Samak chose for his cabinet some of the most unsavoury figures linked to the government of Thaksin Shinawatra, the prime minister deposed in the coup. But with the army on the streets of Bangkok again, Mr Samak is for once, if not in the right, then at least less wrong than those calling for his head.

His government is deeply flawed. But it would be wrong and dangerous if the authoritarian rabble who have seized Government House in Bangkok forced it out of office. After violent clashes between supporters and opponents of the government, Mr Samak this week declared a state of emergency in Bangkok. The army chief backed his decision, but by mid-week was still ruling out the use of force to clear the squatters out. If the protesters, the woefully misnamed People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD), do succeed, democracy in Thailand—not so long ago a beacon, by Asian standards, of pluralistic politics—will be in grave danger.

Some in the crowds at PAD rallies are liberals, appalled both at the abuses of power in Mr Thaksin's government and the sad signs that Mr Samak's is no better. The PAD's leaders, however, are neither liberals nor democrats. A gruesome bunch of reactionary businessmen, generals and aristocrats, they demand not fresh elections, which they would lose, but "new politics"—in fact a return to old-fashioned authoritarian rule, with a mostly appointed parliament and powers for the army to step in when it chooses. They argue that the rural masses who favour Mr Thaksin and Mr Samak are too "ill-educated" to use their votes sensibly. This overlooks an inconvenient electoral truth: the two prime ministers had genuinely popular policies, such as cheap health care and credit

As in the build-up to the 2006 coup, PAD leaders are trying to oust a popular government on the bogus pretext of "saving" Thailand's revered King Bhumibol from a supposed republican plot. Some of the PAD protesters reportedly believe their sit-in has the crown's tacit backing. Almost anywhere else, the police would have removed them, forcibly if necessary, by now. But it is whispered that the PAD has protectors "on high"—hardline army generals and possibly figures in the royal palace (though not the king himself). This may be nonsense; but by preventing the discussion and hence refutation of such royal rumours, Thailand's harsh, much-abused lèse-majesté law has the ironic effect of helping them spread.

In the official version of modern Thai history, the king is the great defender of peace and democracy, who comes to the rescue at moments of crisis. Now would seem to be one such moment: some wise words from the king could do much to defuse tension. Thais like to believe they are good at seeking compromise to avoid conflict. But there has been little sign of compromise in the past three years, and there is now the risk of a bad one. The elected government might be forced out of office to pacify the PAD's demagogues, it might be made to share power with the undeserving opposition Democrat party, which has shown little leadership while waiting for power to be handed it on a plate, or, as in Bangladesh, a civilian front might provide a cloak for de facto military rule.

It is just possible to imagine a decent compromise in which Mr Samak gives way to a more emollient figure from the ruling coalition—and the PAD and its supporters in the army, the bureaucracy and (if they exist) the royal palace accept the verdict of the people. But the PAD's leaders may well not stop until they have imposed their own, undemocratic vision of Thailand. In this sense they are even more pernicious than the coupmakers of 2006, who at least promised to restore elected government and, under popular pressure, did so.

Prosperous, modern and open, Thailand has so far inhabited a different era from the dark ages in which its dismal neighbour, Myanmar, languishes under a thuggish, isolationist junta. Thailand's foreign friends should make clear to the Thai elite that toppling elected governments would be a step backwards. As Myanmar has found, it might also court sanctions. Foreign tourists, seeing the unchecked disorder on their television screens, including blockades of some airports, may soon be imposing a boycott of their own.

What a perfect report. And yet again it takes the foreign 'quality' press to hit the nail on the head. Wouldn't it be something - no..wait....wouldn't it be EVERYTHING..if the Thai media would translate and publish this word-for-word?

Looks like we'll be living in Zeig-Heil land soon..When that happens, will we all be required to bow everytime a Benz drives by us? I'm sure we'll all be wearing the same clothes of course to identify our caste.

EDIT: The edit is to point out to those who don't know, that The Economist is actually a fairly right-wing publication. So all the 'anti-commie' retired Sgt Roger A Smith types can put the helmet and ballpoint back under the desk..

Edited September 11, 2008 by thaigene2

[blaze]

Support a PAD who wants a 70:30 power installation; 70 appointed (by WHOM ?) and 30 elected (without the votes of uneducated rural poor )

Better study his past;

Better pay more attention to the present - it's not appointed by WHOM that is the quesiton, but selected FROM whom.

Also "without the votes" is nonsense - nowhere in the proposal they mention stripping anyone of the right to vote. NOWHERE.

By 'whom' is very much the question- it is central to the entire question.

I might be wrong- but I believe neither the Nazis nor the Stalinists appointed sector delegates- they were elected in both cases by their peers.

(If I'm wrong, please correct me).

Italy had such a system and Austria before Hitler came. Actually it doesn't need to be undemocratic.

Instead one area votes for their 3 people, they only vote for 1 person.

but for example the labor unions vote inside their union one person to send there, so that person is also elected by an part of the population.

But I still don't like it very much

After the fascists came to power in Italy and the Nazis in Austria, were the sector delgates appointed or elected by their peers?

[monkfish]

Just heard on Thai news that at least 10 buses loaded with Samak supporters will be joining the PAD protesters tomorrow in Bangkok.

This could mean trouble! If true I would avoid the area.

[thaigene2]

PLEASE NOTE THE FOLLOWING DOES NOT INCITE NOR CONDONE THIS: BUT I wonder if there is such a thing as a left-wing coup in Thailand. Just a thought..Why does a coup 'need' to be pro-PAD? Couldn't it be pro-one-person-one-vote? (e.g. not pro-Thaksin or Pro-PPP?)

Is it possible for a pro-people, anti-elitist/sakdina, coup (but still loyal to the King) take place? Or is that just a funny thing?

[pumpuiman]

Support a PAD who wants a 70:30 power installation; 70 appointed (by WHOM ?) and 30 elected (without the votes of uneducated rural poor )

Better study his past;

Better pay more attention to the present - it's not appointed by WHOM that is the quesiton, but selected FROM whom.

Also "without the votes" is nonsense - nowhere in the proposal they mention stripping anyone of the right to vote. NOWHERE.

NOWHERE???

The 70% 30% proposal is the proof. It's function is to prevent a majority from having a vote.

The cry "anything would be better than what exists now" ignores the consequences of being left with a system that doesn't allow for the fair representation of the people.

"New politics" is not the answer.

[kurtgruen]

There is no respect for the little man in Thailand, that is the real issue.

Yeah, like Thaksin made a phone call and appointed the Prime Minister, to hel_l with the rest of Thailand.

But lets not forget that they HAD to ask him because he is still a Thai citizen......... My wife is still waiting for the call to be asked her opinion.

Yeah, nobody asked my wife either, but then again, our wives never stole money from the country, to be important (and rich enough) enough to be asked.

[kurtgruen]

I support the PAD, because they don't claim to have all the answers, but want open dialoge.

Mob power is not open dialogue

If you would pay attention to what Sondhi and the PAD are actually saying, maybe you would know what I am talking about

I support them because they want to bring down a corrupt government, along with maybe a corrupt system.

"bring down" is the operative word here. For a real constructive force it would be "built", whatever you want, but built something. Nobody prospers in chaos

The PAD is building..it is building up a huge force, of mostly ordinary people, opposed to a corrupt and illegal government. You want to see distructive, watch the PPP busing in truckloads of paid thugs again, to start trouble.

I support them, because, they prove, that when democracy doesn't work, there are other peaceful ways, to get it back on track.

"peaceful" ? are we really talking about the same people?

We sure are, if they where not peaceful, they would have attacked with guns, not words. For the most part, the PAD has kept this at a peaceful civil disobedience level. The government brought in thugs to steer up trouble.

I support them, because they are against media suppression. I also support them, because I am a Union member and am opposed to the privatization attempts of the current government.

One of the biggest victim of the current events is the press, especially the english press. They have lost all their credibility, in Thailand and everywhere else in the world.

As for me, I believe in free Press, not taking over ITV and turning it into the NBT government Propaganda Channel.

I do hope, that the so-called "little man, woman and child" will have their voice heard and that there will be positive, real changes, for the poor and abused in this country.

Actually they do, but other people don't like what they hear.

Well, you can't be talking about the PAD or ASTV. The first time, I seen commercials against child labour, family violence and such issues, was on ASTV. When I see the PAD demostrations on TV, I see people, who seem to be from all walks of life, including the poor.

I'm off to dinner (because I am lucky enough to have money to buy food, unlike many citizens in Thailand today)

Bon appetit !

Thank you ;-)

There are still a lot of people out there, who seem to be buying into this idea, that Thaksin and TRT where so great for the poor and the farmers....

The majority of those poor farmers, who where given the so called "opportunity" to borrow money, under one of Thaksin's schemes, have already lost, or are loosing their house and land, because they can't pay back the money.

Then you have the PPP, who wants to open Casino's in Thailand, another attack on the poor and desperate.

Yes, they received their 200 - 500 Baht for voting for TRT and later PPP, but they didn't seem to notice, that right after the PPP got into power, roadside stops increased dramatically and fines handed out like crazy, probably already collecting back three times or more, of what they paid out.

Then there is the matter of Mega projects and kickbacks. Money that could be going to support the poor, strenghten the Public medicare system (which runs with a budget of less than 2000 Baht per year, per person, if I remember correctly) and create a minimum universal pension for poor old people.

or how about the illegal money lending, at 20% interest per month. Why didn't Thaksin put an end to it??? He had the mandate and the power.

All he did, was to throw a few crumbs to the poor, to keep them from waking up and revolting. In the meantime, him and his buddies lined their fat pockets.

I don't hate Thaksin. I don't hate anybody, but I will not let a crook like him (or his buddy), climb on a white horse and proclaim himself to be the good guy.

Just like Samak, who calls himself "The defender of democracy". What a joke. He must really hate it, when 1976 and 1992 massacres keep popping up so inconveniently in interviews or being shown on Youtube. Did you listen to his answers in some of the interviews?

It's too bad, that I have a life outside this forum. I wish I would have the time, to go through all the old posts and answer the ones that are adressed to me or refering to what I posted.

I had a second satelite dish installed today, so I don't have to watch ASTV, TOC and the other Thai channels on my PC. Had Both ASTV 1 and 2 spliced into my English, existing receiver and now I am a happy camper.

Ohh...just noticed that the King Maker is playing on Star movies right now. I'm signing off for the night. Good night all