Super Hans Posted September 2, 2008 Share Posted September 2, 2008 How many farang live a basic Thai lifestyle in Bangkok? Who here lives on, say, 15-25k baht a month? Average Thai incomes are 6-10k maybe, so it's perfectly possible to live on even less. So who does? How easy is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
girlx Posted September 2, 2008 Share Posted September 2, 2008 i sure as hel_l don't. not in BKK. i did on Koh Phangan but here i spent about 10x what i spent there. i don't see how anyone can survive in bangkok on less than 60k but i guess they do! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Hans Posted September 2, 2008 Author Share Posted September 2, 2008 i sure as hel_l don't. not in BKK. i did on Koh Phangan but here i spent about 10x what i spent there. i don't see how anyone can survive in bangkok on less than 60k but i guess they do! Yeah, plenty of Thais for a start... And surely some Farang? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zorro1 Posted September 2, 2008 Share Posted September 2, 2008 Interesting point. Are you talking rent inclusive? If not then cant see why its not doable considering you can get a descent meal at say Robinson's downstairs for 35 bht and cheap charlies soi 11 caters to , well... cheap charlies all drinks except wine 60 bht and no tipping you pay up front. Now if you like to eat at the Landmark Hotel and get your girlie's from soi 33 ,BKK can be considerably more expensive than Sydney, London and on par with NYC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdinasia Posted September 2, 2008 Share Posted September 2, 2008 Hmm I live just like my partner, he's Thai .... so ... I guess I live like a Thai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveBKK Posted September 2, 2008 Share Posted September 2, 2008 How many farang live a basic Thai lifestyle in Bangkok? Who here lives on, say, 15-25k baht a month? Average Thai incomes are 6-10k maybe, so it's perfectly possible to live on even less. This is kinda a ridiculous number, and not accurate for Bangkok. Lowest end, entry level jobs may earn 6-10k, but...that's lowest end entry level. I believe a true average for Bangkok is somewhere in the mid 20k range. Taxi drivers make more than this, motorcycle taxi guys make more than this, all those shop owners you see everywhere make more than this... Think about it...a motorcycle taxi, getting lets say an average of 3 trips an hour at 30 baht, 90 baht an hour. He works 10 hours a day....900 baht a day. He works 24 days a month, 21,000 baht a month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Hans Posted September 2, 2008 Author Share Posted September 2, 2008 How many farang live a basic Thai lifestyle in Bangkok? Who here lives on, say, 15-25k baht a month? Average Thai incomes are 6-10k maybe, so it's perfectly possible to live on even less. This is kinda a ridiculous number, and not accurate for Bangkok. Lowest end, entry level jobs may earn 6-10k, but...that's lowest end entry level. I believe a true average for Bangkok is somewhere in the mid 20k range. Taxi drivers make more than this, motorcycle taxi guys make more than this, all those shop owners you see everywhere make more than this... Think about it...a motorcycle taxi, getting lets say an average of 3 trips an hour at 30 baht, 90 baht an hour. He works 10 hours a day....900 baht a day. He works 24 days a month, 21,000 baht a month. I very much doubt your figures. Either way, they'll almost certainly be in a family unit, which'll drag the "average" down somewhat. I'm talking about a single farang, who survives on 15-25k a month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Hans Posted September 2, 2008 Author Share Posted September 2, 2008 Interesting point. Are you talking rent inclusive? If not then cant see why its not doable considering you can get a descent meal at say Robinson's downstairs for 35 bht and cheap charlies soi 11 caters to , well... cheap charlies all drinks except wine 60 bht and no tipping you pay up front. Now if you like to eat at the Landmark Hotel and get your girlie's from soi 33 ,BKK can be considerably more expensive than Sydney, London and on par with NYC Yes, rent included. There are plenty of studios available in the 3-6k a month range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdinasia Posted September 2, 2008 Share Posted September 2, 2008 How many farang live a basic Thai lifestyle in Bangkok? Who here lives on, say, 15-25k baht a month? Average Thai incomes are 6-10k maybe, so it's perfectly possible to live on even less. This is kinda a ridiculous number, and not accurate for Bangkok. Lowest end, entry level jobs may earn 6-10k, but...that's lowest end entry level. I believe a true average for Bangkok is somewhere in the mid 20k range. Taxi drivers make more than this, motorcycle taxi guys make more than this, all those shop owners you see everywhere make more than this... Think about it...a motorcycle taxi, getting lets say an average of 3 trips an hour at 30 baht, 90 baht an hour. He works 10 hours a day....900 baht a day. He works 24 days a month, 21,000 baht a month. Your numbers are highly suspect concerning motorcycle taxis ....3 trips an hour at 30 baht all day long? maybe on your soi but not on mine or anywhere nearby. average trip is to the mouth of the soi and is 7 baht ... there are 5 at each end of the soi etc ... thinking about the busy place on the other side of si nakarin the average trip would be 10 baht. They pay for a lot out of that. I would think they average about 12-15k a month Then again there are places around for 1200-1600 baht a month that aren't dreadful ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zorro1 Posted September 2, 2008 Share Posted September 2, 2008 Interesting point. Are you talking rent inclusive? If not then cant see why its not doable considering you can get a descent meal at say Robinson's downstairs for 35 bht and cheap charlies soi 11 caters to , well... cheap charlies all drinks except wine 60 bht and no tipping you pay up front. Now if you like to eat at the Landmark Hotel and get your girlie's from soi 33 ,BKK can be considerably more expensive than Sydney, London and on par with NYC Yes, rent included. There are plenty of studios available in the 3-6k a month range. That's the toughest part of the equation. Home is non negotiable and couldn't live in 3k studio although age is a factor so no worries if your in your teens although I'm not sure why your asking as it appears you live in Bkk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fun2Fun Posted September 2, 2008 Share Posted September 2, 2008 I guess it would be possible, but why would you want to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauls2979 Posted September 2, 2008 Share Posted September 2, 2008 (edited) hi there , i live in lam lu ka , near the old airport , in a nice complex , 2 bed 72sq m condo , can buy for 1.4 m or rent for 12,000 daily living , 300 bt for for and ciggys= 2100bt a week, lpg for car = 300 bt a week , electric , re air con = 500bt a week , i do not drink so no money there, all that adds up too 2900 bt a week = 11,600bt a month , add rent if don't buy = 23,600bt , but am sure i do not stick to this a mount , re toys for my car , or eating out sometimes , nearer 30,000bt a month for me . hope this helps you? oops forgot ubc 1500 a month and water bill 200 bt a month and internet 800 bt a month Edited September 2, 2008 by pauls2979 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingdongrb Posted September 2, 2008 Share Posted September 2, 2008 How many farang live a basic Thai lifestyle in Bangkok? Who here lives on, say, 15-25k baht a month? Average Thai incomes are 6-10k maybe, so it's perfectly possible to live on even less. This is kinda a ridiculous number, and not accurate for Bangkok. Lowest end, entry level jobs may earn 6-10k, but...that's lowest end entry level. I believe a true average for Bangkok is somewhere in the mid 20k range. Taxi drivers make more than this, motorcycle taxi guys make more than this, all those shop owners you see everywhere make more than this... Think about it...a motorcycle taxi, getting lets say an average of 3 trips an hour at 30 baht, 90 baht an hour. He works 10 hours a day....900 baht a day. He works 24 days a month, 21,000 baht a month. Your numbers are highly suspect concerning motorcycle taxis ....3 trips an hour at 30 baht all day long? maybe on your soi but not on mine or anywhere nearby. average trip is to the mouth of the soi and is 7 baht ... there are 5 at each end of the soi etc ... thinking about the busy place on the other side of si nakarin the average trip would be 10 baht. They pay for a lot out of that. I would think they average about 12-15k a month Then again there are places around for 1200-1600 baht a month that aren't dreadful ... As I have posted on here a few times before, my brother-in-law is a taxi driver in BKK. Yes, he may work 10 hrs a day and 6 or sometimes 7 days a week but he pulls in around 50-60k baht a month... No chit as I know for sure since I have loaned him the down payment to buy the new taxi he drives. He averages between 1500 and 2000 'a day' (Actually a night as this is when he drives. Can cover more ground/fares with the lower traffic times) and then he rents his taxi to his cousin for 500 baht a day when he is sleeping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangyai Posted September 2, 2008 Share Posted September 2, 2008 My gf and I live on 25,000 a month and run a car. Its more than possible. The only hitch I ran into was a big medical bill last year, but apart from that we don't go over 25,000 a month. However, my gf owns her own house.....so no rent. The govournment is currently paying the water and half the electric so apart from the internet and UBC no large monthly bills. We eat out about 6 evenings a month and have a minibreak up north every 3 months when its visa run time. If you're not a big drinker or party animal.......why not....most Thais manage on half that ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Hans Posted September 2, 2008 Author Share Posted September 2, 2008 My gf and I live on 25,000 a month and run a car. Its more than possible. The only hitch I ran into was a big medical bill last year, but apart from that we don't go over 25,000 a month. However, my gf owns her own house.....so no rent. The govournment is currently paying the water and half the electric so apart from the internet and UBC no large monthly bills. We eat out about 6 evenings a month and have a minibreak up north every 3 months when its visa run time. If you're not a big drinker or party animal.......why not....most Thais manage on half that ! Indeed. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Hans Posted September 2, 2008 Author Share Posted September 2, 2008 How many farang live a basic Thai lifestyle in Bangkok? Who here lives on, say, 15-25k baht a month? Average Thai incomes are 6-10k maybe, so it's perfectly possible to live on even less. This is kinda a ridiculous number, and not accurate for Bangkok. Lowest end, entry level jobs may earn 6-10k, but...that's lowest end entry level. I believe a true average for Bangkok is somewhere in the mid 20k range. Taxi drivers make more than this, motorcycle taxi guys make more than this, all those shop owners you see everywhere make more than this... Think about it...a motorcycle taxi, getting lets say an average of 3 trips an hour at 30 baht, 90 baht an hour. He works 10 hours a day....900 baht a day. He works 24 days a month, 21,000 baht a month. Your numbers are highly suspect concerning motorcycle taxis ....3 trips an hour at 30 baht all day long? maybe on your soi but not on mine or anywhere nearby. average trip is to the mouth of the soi and is 7 baht ... there are 5 at each end of the soi etc ... thinking about the busy place on the other side of si nakarin the average trip would be 10 baht. They pay for a lot out of that. I would think they average about 12-15k a month Then again there are places around for 1200-1600 baht a month that aren't dreadful ... Really? Where? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdinasia Posted September 2, 2008 Share Posted September 2, 2008 How many farang live a basic Thai lifestyle in Bangkok? Who here lives on, say, 15-25k baht a month? Average Thai incomes are 6-10k maybe, so it's perfectly possible to live on even less. This is kinda a ridiculous number, and not accurate for Bangkok. Lowest end, entry level jobs may earn 6-10k, but...that's lowest end entry level. I believe a true average for Bangkok is somewhere in the mid 20k range. Taxi drivers make more than this, motorcycle taxi guys make more than this, all those shop owners you see everywhere make more than this... Think about it...a motorcycle taxi, getting lets say an average of 3 trips an hour at 30 baht, 90 baht an hour. He works 10 hours a day....900 baht a day. He works 24 days a month, 21,000 baht a month. Your numbers are highly suspect concerning motorcycle taxis ....3 trips an hour at 30 baht all day long? maybe on your soi but not on mine or anywhere nearby. average trip is to the mouth of the soi and is 7 baht ... there are 5 at each end of the soi etc ... thinking about the busy place on the other side of si nakarin the average trip would be 10 baht. They pay for a lot out of that. I would think they average about 12-15k a month Then again there are places around for 1200-1600 baht a month that aren't dreadful ... Really? Where? all over .. have seen them in Ari and in Onnut and not far from Vic Monument. I wouldn't live in them but then again I want AC and the rest of the normal stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denim Posted September 2, 2008 Share Posted September 2, 2008 (edited) How many farang live a basic Thai lifestyle in Bangkok? Who here lives on, say, 15-25k baht a month? Average Thai incomes are 6-10k maybe, so it's perfectly possible to live on even less. This is kinda a ridiculous number, and not accurate for Bangkok. Lowest end, entry level jobs may earn 6-10k, but...that's lowest end entry level. I believe a true average for Bangkok is somewhere in the mid 20k range. Taxi drivers make more than this, motorcycle taxi guys make more than this, all those shop owners you see everywhere make more than this... Think about it...a motorcycle taxi, getting lets say an average of 3 trips an hour at 30 baht, 90 baht an hour. He works 10 hours a day....900 baht a day. He works 24 days a month, 21,000 baht a month. Sorry to disagree. I know a taxi driver very well and he assures me that after he has paid his taxi rental and petrol he adverages about 15,000. He reckons there are just too many taxis around. He has good days when he makes a 1000 but if his taxi breaks down, he gets nothing. I have also talked to lots of Thais in service jobs....all get less than 10,000.....er except the horizontal service ones. People selling street food can sometimes do really well. I know one guy who sells Khao Man Guy can top 2000 a day.....but that not all profit. Less the chickens ans stuff about 30,000 but he has a number 1 pitch which he pays no rent for. Edited September 2, 2008 by Denim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingdongrb Posted September 2, 2008 Share Posted September 2, 2008 How many farang live a basic Thai lifestyle in Bangkok? Who here lives on, say, 15-25k baht a month? Average Thai incomes are 6-10k maybe, so it's perfectly possible to live on even less. This is kinda a ridiculous number, and not accurate for Bangkok. Lowest end, entry level jobs may earn 6-10k, but...that's lowest end entry level. I believe a true average for Bangkok is somewhere in the mid 20k range. Taxi drivers make more than this, motorcycle taxi guys make more than this, all those shop owners you see everywhere make more than this... Think about it...a motorcycle taxi, getting lets say an average of 3 trips an hour at 30 baht, 90 baht an hour. He works 10 hours a day....900 baht a day. He works 24 days a month, 21,000 baht a month. Sorry to disagree. I know a taxi driver very well and he assures me that after he has paid his taxi rental and petrol he adverages about 15,000. He reckons there are just too many taxis around. He has good days when he makes a 1000 but if his taxi breaks down, he gets nothing. I have also talked to lots of Thais in service jobs....all get less than 10,000.....er except the horizontal service ones. People selling street food can sometimes do really well. I know one guy who sells Khao Man Guy can top 2000 a day.....but that not all profit. Less the chickens ans stuff about 30,000 but he has a number 1 pitch which he pays no rent for. 50k -60k baht a month having own taxi, as I have stated. Avgs 1,500 to 2,000 a day... collects another 10k+ for renting out to his cousin when sleeping (during the day). Yes, needs to pay for the monthly car payment, petrol (NGV), insurance (very minimal compared to western countries), and registration (which also is not much)... But in the end, a taxi driver living very well in BKK and owns his own new vehicle... Think about it, if he drives at night, allowing for more fares due to less traffic, frequents the farang and tourist areas (more tips) it is possible.......and I know it happens 'first hand' information. Maybe the taxi driver you 'know' is kei geit as my brother-in-law is young and very ambitious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfchandler Posted September 2, 2008 Share Posted September 2, 2008 My gf and I live on 25,000 a month and run a car. Its more than possible. The only hitch I ran into was a big medical bill last year, but apart from that we don't go over 25,000 a month. However, my gf owns her own house.....so no rent. The govournment is currently paying the water and half the electric so apart from the internet and UBC no large monthly bills. We eat out about 6 evenings a month and have a minibreak up north every 3 months when its visa run time. If you're not a big drinker or party animal.......why not....most Thais manage on half that ! Sorry, but I'd say your conclusions are a bit misleading since you acknowledge you and the GF have no monthly house payment or rent. So, since most people have to pay for their housing one way or the other each month, living in BKK, you can add another 15,000 to 25,000 per month in rent or other housing payments (at a minimum) to your 25,000 total, and come up with a real 40,000 to 50,000 total -- which certainly is more common and realistic for farang in BKK....on the lower end of the spending scale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfchandler Posted September 2, 2008 Share Posted September 2, 2008 hi there , i live in lam lu ka , near the old airport , in a nice complex , 2 bed 72sq m condo , can buy for 1.4 m or rent for 12,000 daily living , 300 bt for for and ciggys= 2100bt a week, lpg for car = 300 bt a week , electric , re air con = 500bt a week , i do not drink so no money there, all that adds up too 2900 bt a week = 11,600bt a month , add rent if don't buy = 23,600bt , but am sure i do not stick to this a mount , re toys for my car , or eating out sometimes , nearer 30,000bt a month for me . hope this helps you? oops forgot ubc 1500 a month and water bill 200 bt a month and internet 800 bt a month And no expenses for medical/dental/eye care or health insurance??? Nothing for visa renewals or related travel??? No trips back to your native country??? Nothing on women (wife/GF/other....)??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaiYaang Posted September 2, 2008 Share Posted September 2, 2008 15,000 baht/m is cool with me excluding rent, got a place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zorro1 Posted September 2, 2008 Share Posted September 2, 2008 hi there , i live in lam lu ka , near the old airport , in a nice complex , 2 bed 72sq m condo , can buy for 1.4 m or rent for 12,000 daily living , 300 bt for for and ciggys= 2100bt a week, lpg for car = 300 bt a week , electric , re air con = 500bt a week , i do not drink so no money there, all that adds up too 2900 bt a week = 11,600bt a month , add rent if don't buy = 23,600bt , but am sure i do not stick to this a mount , re toys for my car , or eating out sometimes , nearer 30,000bt a month for me . hope this helps you? oops forgot ubc 1500 a month and water bill 200 bt a month and internet 800 bt a month And no expenses for medical/dental/eye care or health insurance??? Nothing for visa renewals or related travel??? No trips back to your native country??? Nothing on women (wife/GF/other....)??? Mrs Palmer and her 5 daughters + internet porn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauls2979 Posted September 2, 2008 Share Posted September 2, 2008 hi there , i live in lam lu ka , near the old airport , in a nice complex , 2 bed 72sq m condo , can buy for 1.4 m or rent for 12,000 daily living , 300 bt for for and ciggys= 2100bt a week, lpg for car = 300 bt a week , electric , re air con = 500bt a week , i do not drink so no money there, all that adds up too 2900 bt a week = 11,600bt a month , add rent if don't buy = 23,600bt , but am sure i do not stick to this a mount , re toys for my car , or eating out sometimes , nearer 30,000bt a month for me . hope this helps you? oops forgot ubc 1500 a month and water bill 200 bt a month and Internet 800 bt a month And no expenses for medical/dental/eye care or health insurance??? Nothing for visa renewals or related travel??? No trips back to your native country??? Nothing on women (wife/GF/other....)??? hi there i was only trying to be helpful to Hans, IE living on your own as for your questions 1 no insurance for me yet , thanks for reminding me , 2 i drive to Cambodia , every 3 months , LPG 1000bt and 1000bt for visa = 2000bt 3 one trip a year back to sunny old England for o visa renewal and check on houses i rent out, ie renew leases = 90,000 bt all in 4 as for my Thai wife , i bought her 4 of the condos at the complex we live in too rent out , for her money = no boxing about money .re her family and children from first marriage , we have a daughter together she is in a private Thai school = 40,000 a year that comes out of my money , which = about 3500bt a month , as we live in my condo that i own , i do not need to include rent from my first post, so if i take out the rent from my first post , but add in my daughters school fees , visa runs and trip back to England , its still the same money , just did not wont to make my first post to Hans to boring to read , and keep it simple plus i did not know re first post if he was including rent or not , so i just did my best to help , Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangyai Posted September 2, 2008 Share Posted September 2, 2008 My gf and I live on 25,000 a month and run a car. Its more than possible. The only hitch I ran into was a big medical bill last year, but apart from that we don't go over 25,000 a month. However, my gf owns her own house.....so no rent. The govournment is currently paying the water and half the electric so apart from the internet and UBC no large monthly bills. We eat out about 6 evenings a month and have a minibreak up north every 3 months when its visa run time. If you're not a big drinker or party animal.......why not....most Thais manage on half that ! Sorry, but I'd say your conclusions are a bit misleading since you acknowledge you and the GF have no monthly house payment or rent. So, since most people have to pay for their housing one way or the other each month, living in BKK, you can add another 15,000 to 25,000 per month in rent or other housing payments (at a minimum) to your 25,000 total, and come up with a real 40,000 to 50,000 total -- which certainly is more common and realistic for farang in BKK....on the lower end of the spending scale. Well, 15,000 for housing is a bit steep. I have a friend staying in Sawadi Place on Pahonyothin Road ( used to stay there myself ) and he pays 8500 a month for a nice compact one bedroom apt ( seperate bedroom that is ) per month. P.A Tower up at Saphan Mai has good rooms from 5000 - 6000 with cable and rooftop pool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfchandler Posted September 3, 2008 Share Posted September 3, 2008 Agreed... The housing cost is really dependant on what area you want to live around BKK... If someone wants to live in the Silom/Sukhumvit corridor, in a decent sized western style apartment, then the 15,000 to 25,000 figures are a good range, though much higher prices are sought in that area as well. If someone doesn't mind living farther away from the center city (and away from easy transit via BTS and MRT), and a range of more western oriented businesses, then the 6,000 to 10,000 range certainly is do-able and reasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cudaproject Posted September 3, 2008 Share Posted September 3, 2008 How many farang live a basic Thai lifestyle in Bangkok? Who here lives on, say, 15-25k baht a month? Average Thai incomes are 6-10k maybe, so it's perfectly possible to live on even less. So who does? How easy is it? Reading peoples tight arse responses in this thread, I am bemused as to what (Foreign nationals) people actually do with their boring lives apart from spend "2900 bt a week" etc.. Title should be renamed: "Anyone Live like a Tramp"... clearly a few people do! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zorro1 Posted September 3, 2008 Share Posted September 3, 2008 How many farang live a basic Thai lifestyle in Bangkok? Who here lives on, say, 15-25k baht a month? Average Thai incomes are 6-10k maybe, so it's perfectly possible to live on even less. So who does? How easy is it? Reading peoples tight arse responses in this thread, I am bemused as to what (Foreign nationals) people actually do with their boring lives apart from spend "2900 bt a week" etc.. Title should be renamed: "Anyone Live like a Tramp"... clearly a few people do! You obviously missed the threads titled "Thailand on $1 per day" and " can I live on $5 a day in BKK" This poster is frugal but not totally nutz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmushr00m Posted September 3, 2008 Share Posted September 3, 2008 Current expenditure is roughly B50k a month. But hopefully when I move into my own place in Oct, was supposed to be this month(sept) but having them redo the bathroom , expenditures wiill be half of current. So B25k. Dont go out drinking or whoring and company pays for lunch and travel But I also know farangs who make B20k a month so it is doable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauls2979 Posted September 3, 2008 Share Posted September 3, 2008 (edited) How many farang live a basic Thai lifestyle in Bangkok? Who here lives on, say, 15-25k baht a month? Average Thai incomes are 6-10k maybe, so it's perfectly possible to live on even less. So who does? How easy is it? Reading peoples tight arse responses in this thread, I am bemused as to what (Foreign nationals) people actually do with their boring lives apart from spend "2900 bt a week" etc.. Title should be renamed: "Anyone Live like a Tramp"... clearly a few people do! You obviously missed the threads titled "Thailand on $1 per day" and " can I live on $5 a day in BKK" This poster is frugal but not totally nutz in response to cudaproject may be boring to some , but not me , i get to watch my daughter grow up in a safe clean environment , have you anything to say that helps hans, re title on the thread , are are you just bored and flaming if these pics of where i live is your idea of living like a tramp , i must disagree with you profoundly Edited September 3, 2008 by pauls2979 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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