Tiggs,

It's just after watching the horrific murder of " Baby P" unfold in the UK, I simply fail to see PB's point about it all being done for a reason. How is G-od working through the minds of these awful killers ?

Tiggs,

It's just after watching the horrific murder of " Baby P" unfold in the UK, I simply fail to see PB's point about it all being done for a reason. How is G-od working through the minds of these awful killers ?

Well you need to re-read our posts there mate, who said God is working through the minds of these killers???

Tiggs,

It's just after watching the horrific murder of " Baby P" unfold in the UK, I simply fail to see PB's point about it all being done for a reason. How is G-od working through the minds of these awful killers ?

Well you need to re-read our posts there mate, who said God is working through the minds of these killers???

I'm not familiar with the story behind the comment, but I think it would be more appropriate to question why god would allow such a thing to happen ?

With these more recent events unfolding, I haven't had time to continue dissecting that site in the OP. But one thing that sticks in my mind is on the Archaeology discoveries tab, where there is a passage from a clay tablet detailing the campaigns of an Assyrian King (Sennacherib):

"I then besieged Hezekiah of Judah who had not submitted to any yoke and I captured forty-six of his strong cities and fortresses, innumerable small cities… I brought out therefrom 200,150 people … (Hezekiah) himself like a caged bird, I shut up within Jerusalem, his royal city. I threw up mounds against him, and I took vengeance upon any man who came forth from his city."

The web site then goes on to mention:

The record interestingly does not claim that Jerusalem – the capital city – was taken. The Bible account tells us why!

And in the fourteenth year of King Hezekiah, Sennacherib king of Assyria came up against all the fortified cities of Judah, and took them. 2 Kings 18 v 13

Then the king of Assyria sent the Tartan, the Rabsaris and the Rabshakeh from Lachish with a great army against Jerusalem, to king Hezekiah. 2 Kings 18 v 17

But then the kicker comes:

But the Bible – the honest history book – reveals why Sennacherib avoids mentioning Jerusalem:

And it came to pass on a certain night that the angel of the Lord went out, and killed in the camp of the Assyrians one hundred and eighty-five thousand … So Sennacherib king of Assyria departed … 2 Kings 19 v 35 and 36

Such an embarrassing defeat is not likely to have been mentioned by Sennacherib.

Interesting. Written on a clay tablet, no mention of Sennacherib's armies being wiped out at all.

But written in the "honest history book" an angel is sent to slaughter 185,00 Assyrians and this is why Sennacherib never conquered Jerusalem ? And it wasn't recorded because he was embarrassed that an angel had wiped out his armies ?

So god will send an angel to slaughter nearly 200 thousand soldiers, but not prevent a little baby from being murdered.

One or two of these angels could have prevented over 8 million of his "chosen" people from being murdered by the nazis. If they had of swooped down and laid waste to a couple hundred thousand nazis, the whole of world war II may never have happened.

So if god sends an angel to kill 185,000 Assyrians to save Jerusalem, and none to kill the nazis, he must have wanted those 8 million Jews to die.

Even a newbie angel could have prevented 9/11 and some of the other mass murders that have happened over the years.

I find it a bit odd too, how many stories there are of god and angels intervening in the fate of man prior to Jesus, and nothing afterwards. Nobody turning to salt, no "floods", no series of plagues, no burning bushes or parting of seas.

Pretty darn quiet over the last couple of thousand years in fact.

Let me guess. Jesus died for our sins, and therefore, ever since then, there has been no need for divine intervention ?

(sorry, not my best effort, but I've been flitting back and forth between this and General and News Clippings, trying to keep up on things.)

Yep kerry, not your best effort at all! Quiet over the past 2000 years? Are you kidding? You went on to mention some huge events, 9/11, the holocaust - which was a precursor to the reformation of Israel, re the op - plagues, famines, wars and rumours of wars! If you believed in the second advent of Jesus as I do, you'd see the significance of all these things. There have been so many things of 'biblical' proportions as predicted in the bible that I know that the return of the Lord Jesus is near. So yes, divine intervention is on-going and constant.

Ya know kerry, your so keen on proving these things to be wrong that you must indeed think there's more to them than you say. Let's face it, if you thought it was all <deleted> why would you bother? Keep searching, you'll get there!

kerryd, the passage in omans was wrongly translated for many centuries to say that "all things work together for good." That surely was not true. By giving mankind free will, God allows us to do terrible things, even Holocausts and genocides. God permits nations to make destructive war, for which they are judged. But through it all, for those who belong to God and who obey him, God works through the evil deeds of other men, to provide some better thing for faithful believers.

The historical Jesus was a pacifist Jew. Jews as a people did not use the sword to defend themselves against violence for over 2,500 years - history's longest period of a pacifist faith, longer than Buddhism.

The historical Jesus was a pacifist Jew. Jews as a people did not use the sword to defend themselves against violence for over 2,500 years - history's longest period of a pacifist faith, longer than Buddhism.

Is that actually part of the Jewish religion?

How did it get changed in order to defend Israel?

I have never heard of Jewish soldiers in the US refusing to fight in the Army. Why is that?

Interesting slant this discussion is taking. The words of Jesus might help here as I don't actually agree that he was a pacifist in the literal definition of the word, this is from a discourse with Pilate:

Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place." John 18.35

The teaching of scripture is that believers should not get involved in 'worldly' wars, nor should thay kill or in any way hurt anyone. I believe this but I'm not a pacifist and I don't think Jesus was either.

My interpretation of, "give Ceasar what is Ceasars", would be to serve in his military as well as pay taxes. I certainly could be wrong.

kerryd, the passage in omans was wrongly translated for many centuries to say that "all things work together for good." That surely was not true. By giving mankind free will, God allows us to do terrible things, even Holocausts and genocides. God permits nations to make destructive war, for which they are judged. But through it all, for those who belong to God and who obey him, God works through the evil deeds of other men, to provide some better thing for faithful believers.

Like queuing up to be slaughtered in the millions ?

I mean seriously. He sends an angel to slaughter 185,000 of Sennacherib's troops, to save Jerusalem and Hezekiah, but no help whatsoever (that we can directly attribute to him) to save the mass extermination of his chosen children ?

God permits nations to make destructive wars. Sure does. And when each side claims god is on their side ? What if numb-nutz had of had a clue, and ended up "winning" WWII ? Would that mean god was on his side, and that he approved of the holocaust ? (I say that because if looney-tunes had of let his superbly trained generals run the war, it would have had a very different outcome).

Meanwhile, millions of soldiers and civilians that died on both sides believed in the same god, and (presumably) thought they were obeying him. What better thing was provided for those faithful ?

5,000 (or 50,000, or 200,000+) die in a natural disaster (which would be his doing), a few are saved, and people claim it's a miracle (i.e. it was divine providence that saved those few people). Funny how they seem to forget that would also mean it was divine providence that killed the thousands who weren't so "blessed".

And this is his way of providing something better for the faithful ?

(I am glad to hear someone admit that there are errors in biblical translation though. I find it nearly impossible to believe it would have gone through so many translations and not been altered many times. As I mentioned before, even in this modern age, serious errors in translation occur all the time, such as:

Coors put its slogan, "Turn It Loose," into Spanish, where it was read as "Suffer From Diarrhea."

Pepsi's "Come Alive With the Pepsi Generation" translated into "Pepsi Brings Your Ancestors Back From the Grave" in Chinese.

The Coca-Cola name in China was first read as "Kekoukela", meaning "Bite the wax tadpole" or "female horse stuffed with wax", depending on the dialect. Coke then researched 40,000 characters to find a phonetic equivalent "kokou kole", translating into "happiness in the mouth."

And yet we are to believe that the bible was translated from language to language thousands of years ago, with no errors, omissions or alterations of the original text ? Were translators then better schooled, better educated, and less likely to alter text to fit their native language better ?

Just look at the difference in the English language from the time of Shakespeare to now.

1609:

Tis all one, I will shew my selfe a tyrant: when

I haue fought with the men, I will bee ciuill with the

Maids, and cut off their heads.

Modern era:

'Tis all one, I will show myself a tyrant: when I

have fought with the men, I will be cruel with the

maids, and cut off their heads.

I could find even better examples, which would highlight the changes in the language in just 400 short years. How much have various languages evolved in 2,000+ years ?

In this modern era, people can't even get 2 and 3 letter ad slogans correct.

How many of these stories were passed on verbally for generations and generations, before first being written down on (paper/clay/papyrus) ? And we are to assume that the original writers were all highly educated masters in their own language ?

(Hint" not to diss English Teachers, but quite frankly, I've seen some pretty poor examples of English grammar, pronunciation and spelling from people that are supposed to be teachers of the language in our time.)

But those that wrote the ancient stories, did so without error, without embellishment or omission, and in a manner which has allowed it to be easily translated into other languages ? And those that did the translations were masters of both languages to such a degree, that they could rewrite all those stories without any change to the details or the content of them ?

I haven't even scratched the tip of the iceberg yet ! But it will have to wait, dinner time !

My interpretation of, "give Ceasar what is Ceasars", would be to serve in his military as well as pay taxes. I certainly could be wrong.

I'd certainly agree with the paying of taxes (no I don't work for the inland revenue!) and abiding by the law of the land as long as the law is not in opposition to the word of God, however, I disagree with the servng in the military as that would contradict the commands to love your enemy and turn the other cheek etc.

To Kerry above. God's plan and purpose will be achieved whatever you or I believe. To deal with some of your comments, WW2 and the holocaust was just what brought about the restoration of the state of Israel, so yes, many bad and evil things did happen - performed by man against his fellow man - just because God knew it would happen does not make him responsible. He gave us our freewill and the ability to screw things up, and you know what, we do.

Again, because nations rise against nation (as Jesus predicted would happen) and both claim god on their side, that does not make either claim true. In fact nearly all the nations in WW2 were 'christian', I use the small 'c' for meaning. How could real Christians kill their brothers in Christ if they were really Christian?

As far as translations are concerned, no one has ever claimed any translation to be perfect. I do think translators do a marvellous job in what they do. I do, however, read the original Hebrew and Greek texts to gain as full an understanding as possible. The word of God is perfect, not the translation. There are so many ancient texts available allowing one to see that the original words are 'virtually' identical to each other that there can be little doubt that the original is intact and free from doctrinal error. The issue here is not the 'correctness' of the text but the interpretation and application of its meaning. Christians are amongst the worst for bigotry, prejudice and narrow-mindedness. This is, however, their problem, not the problem of word of God.

Take the doctrine of 'love', the command is simple, "love one another even as you are loved." The Greek has several words for love and this one is 'agape' love, it's the same love that Jesus showed in laying down his life for us. How many Christians actually obey this simple command? The command is not just for a Christian to love his fellow Christian but everyone. We (I say we meaning we Chritians) are supposed to love God, our fellow Christians and our neighbour as our self. Pick the bones out of that one!

No Kerry, the problem is not with the veracity (see op) of scripture, it's with mankind. We are responsible for our own behaviour and when we screw it up it's so easy to blame God and his word of truth just because he predicted it would happen. It's a self-fulfilling prophesy!

Terrible things will happen before the return of the Lord Jesus, mankind will get worse, will plumb the depths of its evil nature. Scripture tells us this. Once again, because it tells us this, it does not make it responsible - we are responsible!

Now I thought "The Balfour Declaration " brought about the State of Israel ?

My dear old dad was in Palestine at the end of the war. He and his pals were on the last boat out after the capitulation to the Terrorist groups and along with all his pals threw his medals into Haifa Harbour.

His memories are nothing like that of the events projected in " Exodus " and the like. He always falls silent, when his mind goes back to watching from sand dunes, boats released ( pressure form the good old USA ) from Cyprus, packed to the gunwales with the survivours of God's plan via the extermination camps, running into villages where Arab and Jew had lived in peace for a millennia, and declaring Arab owned property was now their own. Any objection ? Bullet in the head for the poor Arab.

I know the " working in mysterious ways " will come out again, but the senseless violence used to create that particular utopia, is still beyond me.

The dispossession of the Palestinians is the major problem I have with Israel.

It was theft, pure and simple, and the claim that it was all in the name of better land usage, hypocrisy.

Maybe, and maybe not, but I don't see you guys giving Australia back to the Aborigines and nobody can say that you don't have lots of company.

The Native Australians didn't have access to lawyers back then.

Comparing a stone age race with no concept of land ownership with a civilized people doesn't add up General.

Colonizing by armed might should have gone out with the conquistadors.

My goodness boys. Are none of you looking at what's going on in the world today???

That doesn't make it right.

And saying God says you can have what you've stolen makes it even worse.

Comparing a stone age race with no concept of land ownership with a civilized people doesn't add up General.

That is very much a matter of opinion. I don't see how you can condone one situation over the other.

My goodness boys. Are none of you looking at what's going on in the world today???

I think that you have to give us more of a hint than that. I'm not sure what you are driving at.

Sorry UG, in the context of what went before. The world is in a terrible state: wars are raging, there's all sorts of disasters, famines, AIDS, add to these the curent finacial disaster and we (mankind) can be surely concerned as to what's happening. The way the discussion was proceeding it was as if we were only saying these things went on in the past. Things are getting worse, not better.

Oh, and before anyone says 'Blame God for that!' It's we who are screwing up, not him!

I don't think that things are getting any worse. I think that things have always been pretty equally fcuked.

Imagine being a slave during cave man days or the Roman Empire or in Dixie.

During the 60s, my father used to say that the world was going to he!! in a handbasket, but it has always been that way.

What would it have been like to be slowly starving to death in a German Concentration Camp or beaten, raped and tortured by the Japanese Military in WW2?

It's been going around for a while, The Thirty Years' War (1618–1648) is an example.

Over the course of the war, the population of the German states was reduced by about 30%. In the territory of Brandenburg, the losses had amounted to half, while in some areas an estimated two-thirds of the population died. The male population of the German states was reduced by almost half. The population of the Czech lands declined by a third due to war, disease, famine and the expulsion of Protestant Czechs.

Wiki

Sorry UG, in the context of what went before. The world is in a terrible state: wars are raging, there's all sorts of disasters, famines, AIDS, add to these the curent finacial disaster and we (mankind) can be surely concerned as to what's happening. The way the discussion was proceeding it was as if we were only saying these things went on in the past. Things are getting worse, not better.

Oh, and before anyone says 'Blame God for that!' It's we who are screwing up, not him!

We screwed up and caused "the tsunami" that killed over 200,000 people ? The recent earthquake in China that killed 90,000+ ? HIV/AIDS ? (well, some say that was man-made).

The world is in a terrible state. And certainly man has played a large part in some of the problems. I would have to say that religion has to shoulder some of the blame as well. Look around at the major (violent) crises around the world. How many of them have religion as their root cause ?

Famines ? In some cases man is to blame. But in some cases god would have to take the blame (in my case, I would say Mother Nature). When an area that was once fertile experiences a drought that lasts 10-20 years, I would find it hard to lay the blame at man's feet.

Yes, in some areas man is to blame. Poor farming techniques, greed, over use of chemicals, depletion of the topsoil can result in fertile areas becoming barren. Just as over-fishing can, in some cases, almost lead to a total extinction of various species.

Is it our "free will" that causes us to at times be our own worst enemy ? Or is it the fact that we have no natural predator to thin our numbers and limit our ability to wreak havoc on our natural environment ?

Or is it god, who was so intimately involved in the lives of man over 2,000 years ago, and now has left us to our own, destructive devices ?

All it would take is one teensy weensy little miracle. The stars forming a "CLEAN YOUR ACT UP" message would work wonders.

It would help in they had a cresent or a cross or something to tell us which book is the "right" one!

It would help in they had a cresent or a cross or something to tell us which book is the "right" one!

Or an Ankh. I'm going for the Ankh. Bring back sexy topless Egyptian women into religion !

And asps.

Anglo Saxon Protestant Sheep ?

This is no longer a serious discussion.

Tis true. Time for a cool down me thinks.