Malaysia beer woman spared caning

Islamic officials in Malaysia have unexpectedly freed Kartika Sari Dewa Shukarno, who was due to be caned six times this week for drinking beer.

She pleaded guilty to the offence under Islamic law committed in 2007 and has not appealed against her sentence.

She would have been the first woman in Malaysia to be punished in such a way.

The case has provoked controversy in a nation where Malays are subject to Islamic law, while the large Chinese and Indian minorities are not.

A van had taken her from her northern Malaysian home to put her in detention so that she could be caned sometime this week.

But after half an hour the van returned, with officials saying the sentence would not be carried out.

Reuters news agency said she was refusing to leave the van until she had her release confirmed in writing.

Confusion

The reason for her sudden release from the sentence remains unclear.

Prison rules require anyone who is to be caned to be in detention first.

But legal experts had said at the weekend that it was not right to detain Ms Kartika as she had not been given a jail sentence by the Islamic court.

A senior Shariah court judge and some lawyers have said she cannot be caned unless she is in jail, and as she was not given a jail sentence, she cannot be caned.

She had the right to sue the state government if she was unhappy with the procedures of her punishment, Malaysia's Syariah Lawyers Association said.

Ms Kartika, a 32-year old trained nurse and mother of two, asked last week that her caning be administered in public.

She had told reporters she was calm about the prospect and was willing to be caned because she respected the law.

Her sister was allowed to accompany her in the van and her father and sister have requested permission to witness the caning.

Both the ruling coalition in Malaysia and the opposition alliance need the support of the Islamist PAS party, and have so far been mostly silent on the case.

Islamic authorities claim that the purpose of the caning is to educate rather than punish.

Amnesty International had urged authorities to revoke the sentence and abolish the practice of caning.

Story from BBC NEWS:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/asia...fic/8217440.stm

-- BBC Aug 24, 2009

Alcohol is a drug in the simplest sense of the definition the same as heroin, amphetamines, cocaine, etc. Some societies ban heroin, some ban alcohol. If westerners by and large accept the punishment of those involved with banned drugs in their countries then there is no argument for westerners to interfere or condemn other societies who punish people for involvement with drugs banned in their respective countries.

One size does not fit all people. Those here who have expressed criticism are demonstrating their irrationality and illogical thought process.

So what if caning or even hanging was introduced into the UK for drug offences, do you think that would be accepted? I think not.

The reason it is accepted in the west is because the punishment is (usually) reasonable and not in the slightest bit archaic, brutal or draconian. Unlike in the East of course.

Quite frankly I would welcome the death sentence for drug dealers world-wide

And for the bent coppers who protect them in many countries

And what would you hope to achieve from that Humphrey?, it is clear after all that it just doesn't work as a deterrent.

Alcohol is a drug in the simplest sense of the definition the same as heroin, amphetamines, cocaine, etc. Some societies ban heroin, some ban alcohol. If westerners by and large accept the punishment of those involved with banned drugs in their countries then there is no argument for westerners to interfere or condemn other societies who punish people for involvement with drugs banned in their respective countries.

One size does not fit all people. Those here who have expressed criticism are demonstrating their irrationality and illogical thought process.

I stand by my previous comment as it relates to the right of a sovereign country to enact laws which relate to drugs and the punishment to be applied to those who break the law.

I do concur with opinions expressed here criticising the selective application of the laws and in particular the law which prohibits religious freedom for Malays born Muslim. I also concur that there should be one law for everyone applied through an impartial and independent judicial system and where the population has the political power to advocate law changes through the democratic process. Religious law existing outside the body politic and not subject to the political process is inconsistent with a modern democratic state.

The selective application of the law, whether state or religious law, is either a law enforcement or religious issue and the lack of religious freedom is a political or religious issue, neither of which has anything to do with the right of a sovereign country to enact laws which the body politic have accepted through the democratic process, which was my original point.

Malaysia beer woman spared caning

Islamic officials in Malaysia have unexpectedly freed Kartika Sari Dewa Shukarno, who was due to be caned six times this week for drinking beer.

not unexpectedly! that the punishment would not be carried out was clear for anybody who possesses an IQ above 82.5

question to moderators: in case my statement violates the forum rule "insults ad hominem strictly forbidden" i retract it and repent by hugging a bottle of old (and bloody expensive) Port.

Good news.

Anyone fancy a beer?

Good news.

Anyone fancy a beer?

All those except Kartika Sari Dewa Shukarno, put your hands up

So because I'm in Canada right now, he has no right to criticize open criticisms of what I see as an injustice, because that's one of the things we do here.

I am not entirely sure of any injustice here, she is a muslim, it is against their law to drink alcohol for muslims, she got caught, she suffers their punishment.

Now, if it is being carried out because she is female and males are having Nelsons Eye turned toward them, then shout from the highest roof top, however it will be the people at the sharp end who will turn the tide, I am not sure what we can do here.

I also believe she did the right thing afterward, she made a point and turned their actions against them, she insisted on a public flogging, supposedly that others could learn by her bad example, a very classy act of self denial that turned the worlds eye on the decision.

Fair play to her.

not unexpectedly! that the punishment would not be carried out was clear for anybody who possesses an IQ above 82.5

question to moderators: in case my statement violates the forum rule "insults ad hominem strictly forbidden" i retract it and repent by hugging a bottle of old (and bloody expensive) Port.

Keep hold of the port, however I think, as stated above, that the flogging would have gone ahead, but behind closed doors, but because she beat them in a case of brinkmanship, it wont go ahead.

Cool Hand Shukarno

What gets up my nose about this, is that there is no caveat in the Koran (none that I have found and no one has been able to show me one) against drinking alcohol. There is a caveat against getting drunk, esp. in public.

In the early days of Islam the dhow traders from the Persian Gulf and Omani coast were trading coffee. Sales were not good, price was low. So then came the outcry from the Omani area that alcohol was evil - men should drink coffee.

And so came he retrictions.

And in Libya - around the Beida region, are still grown excellent wine grapes.

And I worked in Shiraz, in the Shah's time, where one of the most famous grapes originated, and was still grown on the hillsides when I was there.

I have worked in many muslim countries and sen them relaxed and free, then becoming more fundamentalist as the years progress. This is not an isolated case - Pakistan had booze available up to the seventies, everyone (almost) drank. Then came prohibition and bootlegging and a few wedding parties where literally hundreds died of adulterated booze. And the population couldn't distinguish between home-made alcohol, full of methyl alcohol, ethylene glycol and so on, which kills ya, and the previously available JW Black, Stoly and so on. So all said yea, mullah's right - kill the foreigner, beat the women, hate everyone.

You know Humph,

I don't know enough of this rigmarole to play an active part, but what I think I do know, is that I could just sit and buy a few drinks and just listen to you spin a yarn or two.

A very interesting evening, I'd say

Good Luck

Moss

What gets up my nose about this, is that there is no caveat in the Koran (none that I have found and no one has been able to show me one) against drinking alcohol.

I can't either find any either Humph. I have been told that there is something about not turning up for prayer, p1ssed as a newt and also something about "cautioning" against alcohol but that's about it.

I am led to believe that here in Saudi, alcohol was freely available until about 50 years ago. The story goes that a Saudi Prince killed someone whilst heavily intoxicated and so it got banned but I can't confirm the authenticity.

I don't know enough of this rigmarole to play an active part, but what I think I do know, is that I could just sit and buy a few drinks and just listen to you spin a yarn or two.

Me too

What gets up my nose about this, is that there is no caveat in the Koran (none that I have found and no one has been able to show me one) against drinking alcohol. There is a caveat against getting drunk, esp. in public.

you are partly right Humph. the early suras of the Qr'an mention "one should not get drunk". much later scholars and followers of the prophet (صلي الله عليه وسلم) urged him to ban wine totally and the probhibition of wine was integrated. wine was the only alcoholic drink available at that time. according to the Qr'an neither beer, whisky, vodka or other alcoholic drinks (except cognac) are prohibited. but that interpretation is not acceptable by a number of fundamentalists.

I worked in Kenya and South Africa at the end of the Sixties - then went back to UK for a few years, before leaving again in the mid-seventies to go to Iran.

Since then I have only had one year in UK - building an office block in Abbey Wood (Bristol) for the MoD.

Other than that - construction sites - oil & gas / power plants / hospitals / petro-chem all over the Middle East and SE Asia

(and don't forget Su'boom - I put the roof on the long arms - the scruffy looking tensile fabric thingy)

So - two or three years in each place, time enough to learn a little and not get bored.

And then mix it all up in my head later.

Malaysia beer woman spared caning

Islamic officials in Malaysia have unexpectedly freed Kartika Sari Dewa Shukarno, who was due to be caned six times this week for drinking beer.

She pleaded guilty to the offence under Islamic law committed in 2007 and has not appealed against her sentence.

She would have been the first woman in Malaysia to be punished in such a way.

The case has provoked controversy in a nation where Malays are subject to Islamic law, while the large Chinese and Indian minorities are not.

A van had taken her from her northern Malaysian home to put her in detention so that she could be caned sometime this week.

But after half an hour the van returned, with officials saying the sentence would not be carried out.

Reuters news agency said she was refusing to leave the van until she had her release confirmed in writing.

Confusion

The reason for her sudden release from the sentence remains unclear.

Prison rules require anyone who is to be caned to be in detention first.

But legal experts had said at the weekend that it was not right to detain Ms Kartika as she had not been given a jail sentence by the Islamic court.

A senior Shariah court judge and some lawyers have said she cannot be caned unless she is in jail, and as she was not given a jail sentence, she cannot be caned.

She had the right to sue the state government if she was unhappy with the procedures of her punishment, Malaysia's Syariah Lawyers Association said.

Ms Kartika, a 32-year old trained nurse and mother of two, asked last week that her caning be administered in public.

She had told reporters she was calm about the prospect and was willing to be caned because she respected the law.

Her sister was allowed to accompany her in the van and her father and sister have requested permission to witness the caning.

Both the ruling coalition in Malaysia and the opposition alliance need the support of the Islamist PAS party, and have so far been mostly silent on the case.

Islamic authorities claim that the purpose of the caning is to educate rather than punish.

Amnesty International had urged authorities to revoke the sentence and abolish the practice of caning.

Story from BBC NEWS:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/asia...fic/8217440.stm

-- BBC Aug 24, 2009

The sentence has been postponed

They need to find a way of saving face.

She has pleaded guilty, shown remorse, and accepted the law and the verdict.

Just give her 6 gentle taps and quietly release her. Face is then served all round.

I stand by my previous comment as it relates to the right of a sovereign country to enact laws which relate to drugs and the punishment to be applied to those who break the law.

Sibey - yes we all have to accept the law of the land, but further to what you have mentioned below which is basically the fundamentals to the rule of law, there is another crucial aspect to the rule of law - that the punishment befits the crime.

in this case, in this day and age, the idea of caning is what most civilised/developed cultures consider barbaric and archaic. that is what most posters, and most critiques of the sentence handed by the court are protesting.

no one is quite saying that she as a muslim living in a country where Shariah law applies to Muslims, knows full well that she would be brought before the law. we are saying that the law needs to be updated, and move away from such violent punishment.

I do concur with opinions expressed here criticising the selective application of the laws and in particular the law which prohibits religious freedom for Malays born Muslim. I also concur that there should be one law for everyone applied through an impartial and independent judicial system and where the population has the political power to advocate law changes through the democratic process. Religious law existing outside the body politic and not subject to the political process is inconsistent with a modern democratic state.

The selective application of the law, whether state or religious law, is either a law enforcement or religious issue and the lack of religious freedom is a political or religious issue, neither of which has anything to do with the right of a sovereign country to enact laws which the body politic have accepted through the democratic process, which was my original point.

What gets up my nose about this, is that there is no caveat in the Koran (none that I have found and no one has been able to show me one) against drinking alcohol. There is a caveat against getting drunk, esp. in public.

Ive been told by my more progressive Muslim friends that what the Quran says is - it prohibits Muslims from getting intoxicated

(from there I further interpreted that -

for parents to tell their kids 'yes you can drink alcohol, but not to the point where you lose control of yourself'

kids: 'when is that point?'

parents: ermm

so easier to just teach them not to drink at all?

anywhere, thats my reading

however, when I ask my more fundamental Muslim friends that Ive been told the Quran doesnt prohibit drinking alcohol, only prohibit intoxication, they proceed to tell me Ive been misinformed.

I dont have the patience to read the Quran myself, so Im not sure who is more correct. I like to believe my more progressive version though......

I worked in Kenya and South Africa at the end of the Sixties - then went back to UK for a few years, before leaving again in the mid-seventies to go to Iran.

We used to carry halal killed mutton from Oz to Bandar Shapur before the Revolution. When Khomeini arrived back in 1979 we stopped going there for a while but we were one of the first ships back in when they started to let outsiders in again. The first thing the dockers asked us when they came on board was whether we had any beer to sell as it had all been destroyed. Rumour has it (don't know how true it is) that Gray Mackenzie (one of the big shipping agents) had millions of quid's worth of grog stashed away where the authorities couldn't find it.

anywhere, thats my reading

however, when I ask my more fundamental Muslim friends that Ive been told the Quran doesnt prohibit drinking alcohol, only prohibit intoxication, they proceed to tell me Ive been misinformed.

I dont have the patience to read the Quran myself, so Im not sure who is more correct. I like to believe my more progressive version though......

you are right and they are wrong! take that from somebody who has studied the Qr'an more intensely than the average muslim has. the lion share of non-native arabic speakers are able to recite parts but don't understand a word what they are reciting.

the not being able to understand it explains a lot

in most Muslim countries in Asia for instance, the mass population are not educated enough, and do not think in terms of rationality when it comes to religion - and certainly will not dare to even think about questioning what the Ulama/s have said!

hence why the Ulama's are able to interpret the Quran as they see fit (ie. thats in their own interest), and preach what they want to the general population.

I worked in Kenya and South Africa at the end of the Sixties - then went back to UK for a few years, before leaving again in the mid-seventies to go to Iran.

We used to carry halal killed mutton from Oz to Bandar Shapur before the Revolution. When Khomeini arrived back in 1979 we stopped going there for a while but we were one of the first ships back in when they started to let outsiders in again. The first thing the dockers asked us when they came on board was whether we had any beer to sell as it had all been destroyed. Rumour has it (don't know how true it is) that Gray Mackenzie (one of the big shipping agents) had millions of quid's worth of grog stashed away where the authorities couldn't find it.

Gray Mackenzie are the main distributors of booze in the UAE, where foreigners can get a 'ration-book' that allows you to buy a certain amount of booze legitimately.

In Iran, in the Shah's time, there were several breweries in the country - brewing Tuborg, Star, Medijeh, so on - and there was Armenian brandy - (paint stripper) - as well as all the usual spirits. Wines from Rezaiyeh in the North (near the Turkish border) and from around Shiraz.

And the poppy - as now - was available everywhere.

With regard to sheep - they are brought live into Saudi, as the meat has to be killed in the halal way and eaten within 24 hours. And you can smell the sheep ships coming in to Dammam days before they arrive.

Same was with the pig trains coming from the mainland to Kowloon on the KCR. I used to live in Kowloon Tong and the railway made a bend in the station. So when a pig train was coming someone at the end of the platform would yell a warning and everyone ran down into the bowels of the station to avoid the smell - live pigs in individual cages, stacked seven or eight high and the bend threw all the faeces and assorted muck onto the railbed.

Then there is the tale of the shipment of pigs that escaped when the train reached Kowloon Station - absolute farce.

She has been quietly released.

Whether some token punishment was given I do not know. Certainly nothing in public. And certainly not the full sentence proscribed.

As I said in an earlier post this is the Eastern way. So long as face is not lost, the "crisis", the seriousness and the abhorance as seen by a a farang; is allowed to melt away with no further news reports.