Hallo Thaivisa Inmates!

Something has been on my mind lately. Let me lay down some disclaimers for those that don't know me....I am not a racist, nativist or nationalist of any kind. I do not support such groups either.

Now, it seems to me that white supremacist the world over are making appeals of national identity to gain support. This is not really a new tactic but it seems to be working better than before. Opinions have appeared in news from all over Europe that the influx of immigrants and the changes that they are bring are the end of the culture already in place.

I have read of the court room battles waged in France over religious dress in schools and in public pools. I know that there is friction between some Germans and Turks moving more into Germany. I know the UK has dealt with some of these issues as well, are still dealing with them. I also know that these right wing nationalist and supremacist groups are minorities and that the larger populations of these States are not of the same mind.

These groups make an interesting appeal however. Outside of race, for that is not what I am concerned about here, will the culture that is there survive these influxes of people? Can the UK still be English, Irish, Scottish? Can France still be French? Can Germany still have Germans?

I remember a thread on here a long time ago about a mosque being set up in a small suburb or village in England that was using a call to prayer every morning that the English found disturbing and rude, not because it was Islam, but it was loud and disruptive. I made a comment on that thread that the mosque should not be allowed to do this for that was not accepted in the land that they have chosen to live in. When in Rome, right? I also said that when I get to visit these places I have always wanted to visit, like the UK and Germany I wanted to experience UK and German culture, otherwise I’d visit some place else.

So, where is the line that divides being an ignorant fearful racist and a person preserving a culture? In America people are preserving cultures all the time, just look at the efforts made to keep alive traditions and languages that belonged to the Native America tribes. No one calls them racist. So, preserving culture doesn’t always mean something hateful. Should this rally call that the white supremacist are using be fought for, make an argument that it’s okay to preserve culture peacefully, or just let them have this one and say that anyone who expresses such ideas is too close to comfort to such hateful groups?

I find this topic interesting because in America we really don’t have this issue. Many fearful Americans try to make the same claims but they are really just claiming what they want to as American culture and disregarding the rest. We Americans have no real solid culture that everyone can agree on, not like European nations with hundreds of years of civilization. So, time for me to shut up and get some feed back…….feed me!

Cheers, Thaibebop

It's a VERY thin ------------------------------------------------------------------- you're walking on...

I don't understand what you mean by "I find this topic interesting because in America we really don’t have this issue...".

Are you talking racism or culture ?

The whole world is full of racism, not just black versus white vv.

The main problem in good old Europe is RELIGION. Not from the establishment and/or original citizens (pre 1950's or so) in the many different countries but religion from the newcomers, read: people with an Islamic background.

They're raised, educated and told that STATE & RELIGION are one. If you're not pro-Islam you're barbaric and deserve to die.

When the UK, Germany, France, Holland, Belgium, Scandinavia were in urgent need of extra laborers for rebuilding and reconstructing their countries and cities after WWII they searched-and-found hundreds of thousand of workers from Spain, Italy and Portugal.

Problems ? NO, besides maybe a few here and there. Later those workers integrated smoothless; many staid, married and had children. Others went back to their own countries. Everybody happy.

The second wave of laborers came from Northern Africa, mainly Morocco, Tunisia, Algeria and Eastwards from Turkey.

Than.........? than the problems came and those problems are still there.

An extra problem is that many countries in good old Europe mishandled their guestworkers and families; they thought they would leave again, back to their various countries after their jobs were done.

Wrong...they staid.

Now Europe has a big problem, also because the wealthy middle eastern ""organizations" are funding all those mosques in all those EU countries and sending their radical Imams to ""teach"" the Muslim population.

We now have Islamic schools, hospitals, doctors.....go on if you wish...

But, the Christian people of Europe are not allowed to build Christian schools or churches in middle eastern countries because the Government/Islam doesn't allow so. You think the Pope of Rome would be allowed to build a cathedral in Riyad ?

The biggest point is that many governments are behaving cowardly and are very afraid to speak openly about the disgusting way some Islamic fanatics are misusing their big mouths, screaming: "this is racism! ...you can't do that to me because I'm brown, black or yellow and Islamic....you are discriminating me"

Since a few years we have the third wave of workers: workers from Eastern Europe, from poor countries like Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Rumania etc.

These workers are willing to work hard, make money and don't have time to create big problems.

Sure, there are some problems too but those are not because of a religion; more culturally and locally; people complaining they steal their work.

Enough for now.

But, I'm relieved America doesn't have an issue like Europe has...

What a world.

LaoPo

Finger pointing and trying to show who is the superior less-racist country is kind of pointless I think, because it doesn't matter where you live, anytime an influx of people who are different come in, there is fear and anger due to a lack of understanding.

What has happened in the US is generally these different cultures have been able to integrate and yet retain some of their identity. Can this happen in a country that used to be fairly homogeneous? (something the US has not been for many years, if ever). I don't know, but given the situation in Europe, I don't see that they are handling things any better than the US ever has.

Finger pointing and trying to show who is the superior less-racist country is kind of pointless I think, because it doesn't matter where you live, anytime an influx of people who are different come in, there is fear and anger due to a lack of understanding.

What has happened in the US is generally these different cultures have been able to integrate and yet retain some of their identity. Can this happen in a country that used to be fairly homogeneous? (something the US has not been for many years, if ever). I don't know, but given the situation in Europe, I don't see that they are handling things any better than the US ever has.

Interesting SBK, but I wasn't thinking or even considering about if the US or Europe was doing or handling their situation any better in and with integration of newcomers than the other (EU or US).

Europe has had so many wars and shifting in powers that it's almost impossible to count but I think that Europe did a reasonably good job with accepting each other's religions and cultures. Most Europeans are very liberal and not so strict, whether in accepting other religions or cultures.

Sure, at first they shook their heads and smiled if they saw the Protestants coming, or the Catholics, the Jewish, Lutherians, but if it came to help each other, they were there to do so and invite each other for a cup of coffee, and.....eventual mixed in marriages.

Also, because of the geographics of Europe versus the US, the US is and was more orientated towards middle, central and south America as well as the Caribbean AFTER the first waves of -poor- Europeans, trying their luck in the land of opportunities, the US (but also Canada, Australia and NZ!).

The OP, Thaibebop is comparing the USA (just one country...) with Europe; one country with one language, the USA with a little more than 300 million people, versus a continent with more than y700 million people, divided in many countries, with many governments and many languages.

Can't be done!

Our (European) problem is the invasion of people who want, on one side, to improve their lives by making money in our European countries but on the other hand do NO want to integrate into the various cultures of those same countries and consider their hosts as barbarians because they do not embrace the Islam.

That's the biggest and by far largest probopem we are facing in Europe.

However, I fear the US will face the same problm in the near future once the group of Islam believers will grow, within the US but also from new immigrants.

Both the US and EU are cool places of hard working and above all, TOLERANT people. I wish Islamic people would be as tolerant as we are.

The world would be a much better place !

LaoPo

It's a VERY thin ------------------------------------------------------------------- you're walking on...

I don't understand what you mean by "I find this topic interesting because in America we really don’t have this issue...".

Are you talking racism or culture ?

The whole world is full of racism, not just black versus white vv.

The main problem in good old Europe is RELIGION. Not from the establishment and/or original citizens (pre 1950's or so) in the many different countries but religion from the newcomers, read: people with an Islamic background.

They're raised, educated and told that STATE & RELIGION are one. If you're not pro-Islam you're barbaric and deserve to die.

When the UK, Germany, France, Holland, Belgium, Scandinavia were in urgent need of extra laborers for rebuilding and reconstructing their countries and cities after WWII they searched-and-found hundreds of thousand of workers from Spain, Italy and Portugal.

Problems ? NO, besides maybe a few here and there. Later those workers integrated smoothless; many staid, married and had children. Others went back to their own countries. Everybody happy.

The second wave of laborers came from Northern Africa, mainly Morocco, Tunisia, Algeria and Eastwards from Turkey.

Than.........? than the problems came and those problems are still there.

An extra problem is that many countries in good old Europe mishandled their guestworkers and families; they thought they would leave again, back to their various countries after their jobs were done.

Wrong...they staid.

Now Europe has a big problem, also because the wealthy middle eastern ""organizations" are funding all those mosques in all those EU countries and sending their radical Imams to ""teach"" the Muslim population.

We now have Islamic schools, hospitals, doctors.....go on if you wish...

But, the Christian people of Europe are not allowed to build Christian schools or churches in middle eastern countries because the Government/Islam doesn't allow so. You think the Pope of Rome would be allowed to build a cathedral in Riyad ?

The biggest point is that many governments are behaving cowardly and are very afraid to speak openly about the disgusting way some Islamic fanatics are misusing their big mouths, screaming: "this is racism! ...you can't do that to me because I'm brown, black or yellow and Islamic....you are discriminating me"

Since a few years we have the third wave of workers: workers from Eastern Europe, from poor countries like Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Rumania etc.

These workers are willing to work hard, make money and don't have time to create big problems.

Sure, there are some problems too but those are not because of a religion; more culturally and locally; people complaining they steal their work.

Enough for now.

But, I'm relieved America doesn't have an issue like Europe has...

What a world.

LaoPo

OOPS!!!! I wasn't clear enough again. America has racism, lots of it, but no culture, over statement? Yes, but I hope this will make things more clear.

Ask any American what our culture is and you are sure to get the typical vague ill defined phrases of freedom ( of some kind ), individuality, blah, blah, right? Well, we never agree what these phrases really mean. Our culture is really a culture of ‘no’ culture, think Zen here.

Culture will be vastly different for the white kid in Alabama, the Hispanic kid in Arizona, the black kid in New York and so on. So, some Christians say being gay is un-American, well to their cultural thinking, their religion and where they were raised, yes. No so to others.

We can’t agree on what are freedoms are. Look at the 2nd Amendment argument. One side says it’s American to own guns, other says it’s not.

So, white supremacists here in the states can’t say that their side represents the American culture, they may say that but it’s not going to carry that much weight. They have to rely on other issues like job loss, crime rates, hate crimes against whites, government programs that are unfair to whites. Many white supremacists say that there has never been a ‘pure American culture’ which is why they need to create one.

So, what I was saying by America doesn’t have this problem is that our racist bastards can’t play a ‘protecting American culture’ card as well as European white supremacists can. I have always understood that European States have a lot more clearly defined cultures then the complete mash up that is America’s version of culture.

I would think that attacks against aspects of culture that truly give identity to a European cultural group, like Muslims attacking St. George’s Day (maybe?), would create a strong reaction that would give some racist groups a bit more public support, even if most of the population disagrees with the white supremacists, simply because that attack on the aspect of culture was just going too far.

I hope I am making better sense. If you think my ideas are off mark please tell me otherwise. This thread is really me trying to learn. I come across stories in the news that deal with issues like this and it makes me wonder. Most recently was the young Muslim women in France who refused to wear the appropriate clothes to use the public pool and when denied access she called discrimination. I would think acts like this, which is similar to the breaking of school rules concerning religious symbols in schools goes against French culture and the way of life there and at some point even the most understanding French citizen will be fed up and this is when those racists in the shadows get the more public support they wanted.

Cheers, Thaibebop

Finger pointing and trying to show who is the superior less-racist country is kind of pointless I think, because it doesn't matter where you live, anytime an influx of people who are different come in, there is fear and anger due to a lack of understanding.

What has happened in the US is generally these different cultures have been able to integrate and yet retain some of their identity. Can this happen in a country that used to be fairly homogeneous? (something the US has not been for many years, if ever). I don't know, but given the situation in Europe, I don't see that they are handling things any better than the US ever has.

Yes, this is what I was trying to get at with the comparison between culture in America and Europe. There is more living room for different cultural groups in American, right now anyway. So, while many problems of race and religion in the US and Europe are similar there are still prominent differences that are going to alter the best ways in which America and European States will address these issues.

I feel it is important that European nations state clearly that this is our culture and form this stems our legal beliefs and how we expect individuals to live within our society. This is very different from what white supremacists would say, but still if people are not careful might sound like what the white supremacists are saying. So, how does a nation make such a declaration without it becoming racists or nativist?

I'm very tired and off to bed, but before I do I think you're on the wrong path.

Culture is not just one item...one thing....one painting....one culture....one religion, whether in the US nor Europe nor the Great Wall in China.

Culture is made, created, born and "cooked" in the minds of hundreds of millions of people, since thousands of years.

Culture as such is contained of hundreds of billions of different items, small and large, from the crafted golden needle from the Medieval Ages in a small village in the most Eastern Alpes to the largest manmade constructions of the Pyramids in Egypt and Great Wall in China.

Culture is around YOU, in YOU.

The US is a virgin country in comparison with Europe, China, Egypt but culture is also created by so many brains and craftsmen/women in the US, appreciated in the US and maybe rejected in Iran.

But discussions or rejections belong to the process of acceptance of culture as such.

Culture is growing and diminishing at the same time, over and over....and maybe re-accepted again in 3.000 years

LaoPo

Finger pointing and trying to show who is the superior less-racist country is kind of pointless I think, because it doesn't matter where you live, anytime an influx of people who are different come in, there is fear and anger due to a lack of understanding.

What has happened in the US is generally these different cultures have been able to integrate and yet retain some of their identity. Can this happen in a country that used to be fairly homogeneous? (something the US has not been for many years, if ever). I don't know, but given the situation in Europe, I don't see that they are handling things any better than the US ever has.

Interesting SBK, but I wasn't thinking or even considering about if the US or Europe was doing or handling their situation any better in and with integration of newcomers than the other (EU or US).

Europe has had so many wars and shifting in powers that it's almost impossible to count but I think that Europe did a reasonably good job with accepting each other's religions and cultures. Most Europeans are very liberal and not so strict, whether in accepting other religions or cultures.

Sure, at first they shook their heads and smiled if they saw the Protestants coming, or the Catholics, the Jewish, Lutherians, but if it came to help each other, they were there to do so and invite each other for a cup of coffee, and.....eventual mixed in marriages.

Also, because of the geographics of Europe versus the US, the US is and was more orientated towards middle, central and south America as well as the Caribbean AFTER the first waves of -poor- Europeans, trying their luck in the land of opportunities, the US (but also Canada, Australia and NZ!).

The OP, Thaibebop is comparing the USA (just one country...) with Europe; one country with one language, the USA with a little more than 300 million people, versus a continent with more than y700 million people, divided in many countries, with many governments and many languages.

Can't be done!

Our (European) problem is the invasion of people who want, on one side, to improve their lives by making money in our European countries but on the other hand do NO want to integrate into the various cultures of those same countries and consider their hosts as barbarians because they do not embrace the Islam.

That's the biggest and by far largest probopem we are facing in Europe.

However, I fear the US will face the same problm in the near future once the group of Islam believers will grow, within the US but also from new immigrants.

Both the US and EU are cool places of hard working and above all, TOLERANT people. I wish Islamic people would be as tolerant as we are.

The world would be a much better place !

LaoPo

I really do think we are talking about the same thing here. Yes, the US will face such issues in the future which is why I am interested in how European States handle their issues. I feel they will have to be first in decisions on the social schims that are appearing in their countries, way before America does. That most likely will set a precedence for what America does, or maybe doesn't do. Many Americans are now talking about these issues and arejust waiting for a Muslim riot in a major city like Paris had.

I'm very tired and off to bed, but before I do I think you're on the wrong path.

Culture is not just one item...one thing....one painting....one culture....one religion, whether in the US nor Europe nor the Great Wall in China.

Culture is made, created, born and "cooked" in the minds of hundreds of millions of people, since thousands of years.

Culture as such is contained of hundreds of billions of different items, small and large, from the crafted golden needle from the Medieval Ages in a small village in the most Eastern Alpes to the largest manmade constructions of the Pyramids in Egypt and Great Wall in China.

Culture is around YOU, in YOU.

The US is a virgin country in comparison with Europe, China, Egypt but culture is also created by so many brains and craftsmen/women in the US, appreciated in the US and maybe rejected in Iran.

But discussions or rejections belong to the process of acceptance of culture as such.

Culture is growing and diminishing at the same time, over and over....and maybe re-accepted again in 3.000 years

LaoPo

Ah, this is another aspect which I think on. Is it better to allow a culture to change as change is inevitable and lose what makes France French or allow conflict to occur over the protection of ideas? Many cultures have had to make this choice before and history might be at a stage once again where this question must be answered yet again.

Anyway, Guten Nacht LaoPo, it was nice talking to you again.

I'm very tired and off to bed, but before I do I think you're on the wrong path.

Culture is not just one item...one thing....one painting....one culture....one religion, whether in the US nor Europe nor the Great Wall in China.

Culture is made, created, born and "cooked" in the minds of hundreds of millions of people, since thousands of years.

Culture as such is contained of hundreds of billions of different items, small and large, from the crafted golden needle from the Medieval Ages in a small village in the most Eastern Alpes to the largest manmade constructions of the Pyramids in Egypt and Great Wall in China.

Culture is around YOU, in YOU.

The US is a virgin country in comparison with Europe, China, Egypt but culture is also created by so many brains and craftsmen/women in the US, appreciated in the US and maybe rejected in Iran.

But discussions or rejections belong to the process of acceptance of culture as such.

Culture is growing and diminishing at the same time, over and over....and maybe re-accepted again in 3.000 years

LaoPo

Ah, this is another aspect which I think on. Is it better to allow a culture to change as change is inevitable and lose what makes France French or allow conflict to occur over the protection of ideas? Many cultures have had to make this choice before and history might be at a stage once again where this question must be answered yet again.

Anyway, Guten Nacht LaoPo, it was nice talking to you again.

That's German Thaibebop

Nobody can change any culture; it's done by itself, slowly. But if you're talking about the French situation and riots as well as the girl who was wearing a Burkini/swimming burka in a swimming pool.....these are all parts of (non)-integration.

The riots occur because of youngsters, mostly from African countries -Pieds Noir, so called because they came from Algeria- who have a very low education (their parents did a bad job.....not telling them to study and not having power over them) but also due to the government who didn't do enough to educate them and put them to work.

If one see the endless poverty combined with no prosperity for them in the future it's easy to understand why those riots occur.

I agree with the ban of burka swimming suits in French swimming pools.

Foreigners should adapt to the rules and laws, culture of the host country and NOT the way around, meaning that the Muslim population (and Imams!) are telling those countries how to behave and what is allowed and what not.

Burkini/swimming Burka

Important note:

There was an interesting discussion, filmed in a train, amongst a few women from Morocco. One very stylish Lady mentioned that she didn't understand the enormous change in Islamic rules for women.....

When she was little, she said, all her family members, aunties etc, were wearing short skirts and beautiful hair, all kinds of wigs etc.

Now... all this has changed and most of those same women are now dressed in partly face covered, or the complete face-covering burkas.

This is NOT because the women like it so much, it's because the fanatic Muslim-men are changing those rules...for their own benefit, claiming they are protecting the women...my @rse !

LaoPo

It's a VERY thin ------------------------------------------------------------------- you're walking on...

I don't understand what you mean by "I find this topic interesting because in America we really don't have this issue...".

Are you talking racism or culture ?

The whole world is full of racism, not just black versus white vv.

The main problem in good old Europe is RELIGION. Not from the establishment and/or original citizens (pre 1950's or so) in the many different countries but religion from the newcomers, read: people with an Islamic background.

They're raised, educated and told that STATE & RELIGION are one. If you're not pro-Islam you're barbaric and deserve to die.

When the UK, Germany, France, Holland, Belgium, Scandinavia were in urgent need of extra laborers for rebuilding and reconstructing their countries and cities after WWII they searched-and-found hundreds of thousand of workers from Spain, Italy and Portugal.

Problems ? NO, besides maybe a few here and there. Later those workers integrated smoothless; many staid, married and had children. Others went back to their own countries. Everybody happy.

The second wave of laborers came from Northern Africa, mainly Morocco, Tunisia, Algeria and Eastwards from Turkey.

Than.........? than the problems came and those problems are still there.

An extra problem is that many countries in good old Europe mishandled their guestworkers and families; they thought they would leave again, back to their various countries after their jobs were done.

Wrong...they staid.

Now Europe has a big problem, also because the wealthy middle eastern ""organizations" are funding all those mosques in all those EU countries and sending their radical Imams to ""teach"" the Muslim population.

We now have Islamic schools, hospitals, doctors.....go on if you wish...

But, the Christian people of Europe are not allowed to build Christian schools or churches in middle eastern countries because the Government/Islam doesn't allow so. You think the Pope of Rome would be allowed to build a cathedral in Riyad ?

The biggest point is that many governments are behaving cowardly and are very afraid to speak openly about the disgusting way some Islamic fanatics are misusing their big mouths, screaming: "this is racism! ...you can't do that to me because I'm brown, black or yellow and Islamic....you are discriminating me"

Since a few years we have the third wave of workers: workers from Eastern Europe, from poor countries like Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Rumania etc.

These workers are willing to work hard, make money and don't have time to create big problems.

Sure, there are some problems too but those are not because of a religion; more culturally and locally; people complaining they steal their work.

Enough for now.

But, I'm relieved America doesn't have an issue like Europe has...

What a world.

LaoPo

OOPS!!!! I wasn't clear enough again. America has racism, lots of it, but no culture, over statement? Yes, but I hope this will make things more clear.

Ask any American what our culture is and you are sure to get the typical vague ill defined phrases of freedom ( of some kind ), individuality, blah, blah, right? Well, we never agree what these phrases really mean. Our culture is really a culture of 'no' culture, think Zen here.

Culture will be vastly different for the white kid in Alabama, the Hispanic kid in Arizona, the black kid in New York and so on. So, some Christians say being gay is un-American, well to their cultural thinking, their religion and where they were raised, yes. No so to others.

We can't agree on what are freedoms are. Look at the 2nd Amendment argument. One side says it's American to own guns, other says it's not.

So, white supremacists here in the states can't say that their side represents the American culture, they may say that but it's not going to carry that much weight. They have to rely on other issues like job loss, crime rates, hate crimes against whites, government programs that are unfair to whites. Many white supremacists say that there has never been a 'pure American culture' which is why they need to create one.

So, what I was saying by America doesn't have this problem is that our racist bastards can't play a 'protecting American culture' card as well as European white supremacists can. I have always understood that European States have a lot more clearly defined cultures then the complete mash up that is America's version of culture.

I would think that attacks against aspects of culture that truly give identity to a European cultural group, like Muslims attacking St. George's Day (maybe?), would create a strong reaction that would give some racist groups a bit more public support, even if most of the population disagrees with the white supremacists, simply because that attack on the aspect of culture was just going too far.

I hope I am making better sense. If you think my ideas are off mark please tell me otherwise. This thread is really me trying to learn. I come across stories in the news that deal with issues like this and it makes me wonder. Most recently was the young Muslim women in France who refused to wear the appropriate clothes to use the public pool and when denied access she called discrimination. I would think acts like this, which is similar to the breaking of school rules concerning religious symbols in schools goes against French culture and the way of life there and at some point even the most understanding French citizen will be fed up and this is when those racists in the shadows get the more public support they wanted.

Cheers, Thaibebop

Of course America has a culture. It is consumerism.

I find the amount of anti-Muslim feeling quite sad. While I am not blind to the fact that SOME Muslims are Islamic fundamentalists and cause alot of grief, I think it's unfair to lump all Muslims together.

I also find it sad that some people from the nations that colonised so many countries and destroyed those country's "culture", now cry about having their own culture infringed upon.

One only has to look at the present day difference between American Samoa and Western Samoa, once one nation, to see how a culture is replaced by the exploiters.

There is a saying in South Africa amongst the black population; When the white man came, he had religion and we had land. Now, he has the land and we have religion.

A sentiment that many a colonised or exploited country could echo: maybe not in terms of religion and land, maybe in terms of disease or intolerance etc, and gold/oil, or culture etc.

As ye sow, so shall ye reap. It was the British and American exploitation of Iran, Egypt, and the Middle East that fostered resentment and revolt....early 20th century, not all that long ago.

I find the amount of anti-Muslim feeling quite sad. While I am not blind to the fact that SOME Muslims are Islamic fundamentalists and cause alot of grief, I think it's unfair to lump all Muslims together.

I agree;

but I don't think anyone would object to Muslims, their religion or their culture if they would practice the same within their own environment, homes and mosques and would refrain of telling us that we are barbarians, not believing in their religion!

If we are visiting Arab states we KNOW that we are not allowed to talk to their women, not allowed to drink alcohol, not to take certain medications and if we would steal they will chop off our hands or neck...and we behave accordingly; we adapt and respect their laws and culture.

So, why is it asked too much to "request" them to behave and act according to the rules of their host countries they're living in and making their bread/money in ?

Next to that, I spoke earlier about guest workers from many countries; most people from those countries integrated perfectly and married with local men and women.

Muslim people do not integrate and thus making it difficult to adapt to the rules, laws and culture of our countries.

I do not oppose Muslim people or their religion, I oppose that they do not adapt and integrate and make me feel uncomfortable in my own country because it has come so far in Europe that many locals are afraid to say something if they (or the youngsters) misbehave, afraid as we are to be accused of discrimination...in our own country.

In my own country we have many parts in many cities which are being terrorized (yes: terrorized) by large gangs of mainly Moroccon youngsters, from 11, 12 to 25 yo and the people are very scared of them, including the police.

Every country in Europe has it's own climate and 99% of the people dress according to that climate. Many Muslim people, men and women, after 40 years in Europe, still dress in what we call thick and warm "soup-dresses"... .........why don't they adapt and integrate ?

I don't wear a winter coat when I'm on the beach in Thailand....

LaoPo

I find the amount of anti-Muslim feeling quite sad. While I am not blind to the fact that SOME Muslims are Islamic fundamentalists and cause alot of grief, I think it's unfair to lump all Muslims together.

I also find it sad that some people from the nations that colonised so many countries and destroyed those country's "culture", now cry about having their own culture infringed upon.

One only has to look at the present day difference between American Samoa and Western Samoa, once one nation, to see how a culture is replaced by the exploiters.

There is a saying in South Africa amongst the black population; When the white man came, he had religion and we had land. Now, he has the land and we have religion.

A sentiment that many a colonised or exploited country could echo: maybe not in terms of religion and land, maybe in terms of disease or intolerance etc, and gold/oil, or culture etc.

As ye sow, so shall ye reap. It was the British and American exploitation of Iran, Egypt, and the Middle East that fostered resentment and revolt....early 20th century, not all that long ago.

I am sorry you think that this is a Muslim bashing thread, I promise it's not. I am concerned with white supremacists becoming more popular as the troubles with immigrant populations settling in western nations seem to become more conflicting. I am also concerned with keeping intact cultures of the west, being legal aspects to day to day intact.

Everyone should be allowed to live free, right? Practice their faith, vote, love whom they wish, right? This requires from our western nations open mindedness and tolerance, but at the same time it requires us to also clearly state what will not be accpected. Like the contract Locke spoke of between citizen and government a social contract needs to be made between native and immgrant to live peacefully.

I am fearful that out of well meaning native sentiments by the common citizen violent white supremacist groups will undermine our values to get rid of the forieger, thus leading to more violence. So, how can the western nations keep this from happening without sacrificing our values and freedoms? I realize there is more than just what happens in the west attached to this, like the wars wages in the Middle East, please feel free to bring this up, I am just focusing on peacefully intergrating any immigrant that comes into western nations and keeping such groups like the Neo-Nazis from becoming a voice of reason.

Cheers, Thaibebop

Of course America has a culture. It is consumerism.

I have never thought of it like that.........ya know, I think I have to buy a book about this and while I am reading this book I will download some new music and buy a hamburger from my favorite heathly fast food establishment while talking on my new cell phone wearing new clothes and listening to my ipod.

That's German Thaibebop

Nobody can change any culture; it's done by itself, slowly. But if you're talking about the French situation and riots as well as the girl who was wearing a Burkini/swimming burka in a swimming pool.....these are all parts of (non)-integration.

The riots occur because of youngsters, mostly from African countries -Pieds Noir, so called because they came from Algeria- who have a very low education (their parents did a bad job.....not telling them to study and not having power over them) but also due to the government who didn't do enough to educate them and put them to work.

If one see the endless poverty combined with no prosperity for them in the future it's easy to understand why those riots occur.

I agree with the ban of burka swimming suits in French swimming pools.

Foreigners should adapt to the rules and laws, culture of the host country and NOT the way around, meaning that the Muslim population (and Imams!) are telling those countries how to behave and what is allowed and what not.

Burkini/swimming Burka

Important note:

There was an interesting discussion, filmed in a train, amongst a few women from Morocco. One very stylish Lady mentioned that she didn't understand the enormous change in Islamic rules for women.....

When she was little, she said, all her family members, aunties etc, were wearing short skirts and beautiful hair, all kinds of wigs etc.

Now... all this has changed and most of those same women are now dressed in partly face covered, or the complete face-covering burkas.

This is NOT because the women like it so much, it's because the fanatic Muslim-men are changing those rules...for their own benefit, claiming they are protecting the women...my @rse !

LaoPo

So, far I still think we are on the same page. You mention the Imams well one thing I wonder is if people are more likely to listen to these men if they feeling that they are in hostile lands? Would a young Muslim teenager become more radical beause of his exposure to a Nazi rally?

One turth here is I know nothing about life in Europe. Would native Europeans allow an enviroment that would create hostile immigrants? I have been led to believe that is not the case, I could be wrong. One of the reasons I am writing here. I am not trying to give answers, just get a better understanding.

Yes, that was German. I had ot give up on Chinese at my University. It was not a friendly program nor staffed with friendly people, so I changed to German. It won't help me with Asia history but it will help me get my undergrad!

Guten Abend, mein Freund!

TBB, I don't think it is a Muslim bashing thread....just some replies (LaoPo) express sweeping generalisations. Also, this thread comes close on the heels of another thread about toilets in Britain, so I have been getting a general picture of a certain amount of Muslim-distaste.

".......You mention the Imams well one thing I wonder is if people are more likely to listen to these men if they feeling that they are in hostile lands? Would a young Muslim teenager become more radical beause of his exposure to a Nazi rally? ......"

This is an important point you ask.

Very likely, I'd say. And who could blame him?

I have lived most of my life amongst Muslims in two distinct countries (Fiji and NZ). Whilst there are a few Nazi-type white supremicists in NZ, both countries are secular and non-hostile to Muslims. Neither country see's even a hint of Islamic militarism or fundamentalism. Supremicists are booed down by the general public. I think most people would far far rather a Muslim family move in next door than a skinhead Nazi. Thus we don't get the negative reactions escalating.

Some intolerance towards someone's clothes leads to Imams preaching vengeance.

Clothes! For goodness sake; if I want to wear a Santa Claus suit on the beach in Thailand, why can't I? Who would be offended by that? How would it affect you besides with amusement? Your freedoms end a couple of inches away from my nose. What's wrong with the burkini? What possible offense can a burkini cause anyone? Is your fashion sense any better than mine? Do you need to legislate against someone's fashion albeit that fashion is born of a religious zealotry?

I would venture to say that besides the historic chip-on-the-shoulder, that it could take such a small thing as banning a certain style of dress to escalate to mutual distrust and enmity.

Ignorance is another big thing at the root of the problem. After 9/11, when the Western world was fired up (overly so, I say), there were reports of Sikhs being bashed....not just one case...Indian Sikhs with turbans being taken for "raghead camel riding terrorists". How ignorant is that????? That's the same level of ignorance as a German wearing lederhosen being mistaken for a cowboy wearing chaps.

Ignorance on both sides, to be fair.

Propaganda is another culprit...on both sides of the fence.

I see your point about supremicists and how the scenario can spiral out of control to a situation that is detrimental to everybody.

I think the only answer is to preach tolerance to both sides by firstly exposing the propaganda from both sides for the lies it tells and the hate it fuels.

TBB, I don't think it is a Muslim bashing thread....just some replies (LaoPo) express sweeping generalisations.

I suggest you read my posts in this thread again, very carefully, because I don't like what you just wrote as I am NOT generalizing; au contraire Harcourt, au contraire...

LaoPo

I don't understand what you mean by "I find this topic interesting because in America we really don’t have this issue...".

Are you talking racism or culture ?

LaoPo, au contraire.

I'm sorry you don't like what I wrote.

Let me "read your posts in this thread again, very carefully"....

Let me quote you so that you see where and why I say "sweeping generalisations".

Your 1st post set the scene with "The main problem in good old Europe is RELIGION (emphasis yours) ......religion from the newcomers, read: people with an Islamic background......They're raised, educated and told that STATE & RELIGION are one. If you're not pro-Islam you're barbaric and deserve to die..."

This is definitely a sweeping generalisation as it is an inaccurate depiction of all Muslims.

You go on; "....do NO want to integrate into the various cultures of those same countries and consider their hosts as barbarians because they do not embrace the Islam...."

Again, you generalise. You attribute all Muslims with no desire to integrate and holding this narrow mindset.

Then in post #10 you state , "....This is NOT because the women like it so much, it's because the fanatic Muslim-men are changing those rules....", as if this is the attitude of all Muslim men...the fact is many Muslim women don't wear a burkha, let alone the men force them to do so. A generalisation.

Post #13; "...Muslim people do not integrate ...", and, "....they do not adapt and integrate ....".

Sweeping generalisations.

Au contraire indeed.

It's a VERY thin ------------------------------------------------------------------- you're walking on...

I don't understand what you mean by "I find this topic interesting because in America we really don’t have this issue...".

Are you talking racism or culture ?

LaoPo

culture? what culture?

I don't wear a winter coat when I'm on the beach in Thailand....

LaoPo

that is a matter of individual perspective LaoPo. my wife is neither a Muslim nor a Christian nor a Buddhist nor a Hindu (you are one of the very few tv-members who know her background). we live since three decades in tropical or subtropical countries. but until this very day she wouldn't wear shorts or a dress showing her knees in public. not even in our home ("what would the servants say?") and it was at her advanced age of 45 when she dared for the first time in her life to use a public beach on Koh Samui wearing a (of course) one-pieced bathing suit

we have a proverb in Germany that depicts the "problem". it says "nobody can jump across his/her own shadow!"

facit: cultural background and upbringing (not necessarily religion!) cannot be discarded easily.

Finger pointing and trying to show who is the superior less-racist country is kind of pointless I think, because it doesn't matter where you live, anytime an influx of people who are different come in, there is fear and anger due to a lack of understanding.

What has happened in the US is generally these different cultures have been able to integrate and yet retain some of their identity. Can this happen in a country that used to be fairly homogeneous? (something the US has not been for many years, if ever). I don't know, but given the situation in Europe, I don't see that they are handling things any better than the US ever has.

indeed, they don't! if there was ever a big (and relatively successful) melting pot it was and is the U.S. of A.

What's wrong with the burkini? What possible offense can a burkini cause anyone? Is your fashion sense any better than mine? Do you need to legislate against someone's fashion albeit that fashion is born of a religious zealotry?

I don't believe it was anything to do with fashion nor religion. And it was banned not from the beach but from indoor swimming pools because of hygiene and the fact that clothes can harbour bacteria. Before you know it, some guy with his oiled up boiler suit and boots will be jumping in the pool. Where would you draw the line. To me this is just common sense and hygiene.

What's wrong with the burkini? What possible offense can a burkini cause anyone? Is your fashion sense any better than mine? Do you need to legislate against someone's fashion albeit that fashion is born of a religious zealotry?

I don't believe it was anything to do with fashion nor religion. And it was banned not from the beach but from indoor swimming pools because of hygiene and the fact that clothes can harbour bacteria. Before you know it, some guy with his oiled up boiler suit and boots will be jumping in the pool. Where would you draw the line. To me this is just common sense and hygiene.

i draw the line and say a dirty body can harbour more bacteria than a clean burkhini.

What's wrong with the burkini? What possible offense can a burkini cause anyone? Is your fashion sense any better than mine? Do you need to legislate against someone's fashion albeit that fashion is born of a religious zealotry?

I don't believe it was anything to do with fashion nor religion. And it was banned not from the beach but from indoor swimming pools because of hygiene and the fact that clothes can harbour bacteria. Before you know it, some guy with his oiled up boiler suit and boots will be jumping in the pool. Where would you draw the line. To me this is just common sense and hygiene.

i draw the line and say a dirty body can harbour more bacteria than a clean burkhini.

Your quite right. But everyone should shower before they enter the pool, this is also a rule before entering indoor pools. A dirty body inside either a clean or dirty burkhini will not be cleansed by a quick shower.

LaoPo, au contraire.

I'm sorry you don't like what I wrote.

Let me "read your posts in this thread again, very carefully"....

Let me quote you so that you see where and why I say "sweeping generalisations".

Your 1st post set the scene with "The main problem in good old Europe is RELIGION (emphasis yours) ......religion from the newcomers, read: people with an Islamic background......They're raised, educated and told that STATE & RELIGION are one. If you're not pro-Islam you're barbaric and deserve to die..."

This is definitely a sweeping generalisation as it is an inaccurate depiction of all Muslims.

You go on; "....do NO want to integrate into the various cultures of those same countries and consider their hosts as barbarians because they do not embrace the Islam...."

Again, you generalise. You attribute all Muslims with no desire to integrate and holding this narrow mindset.

Then in post #10 you state , "....This is NOT because the women like it so much, it's because the fanatic Muslim-men are changing those rules....", as if this is the attitude of all Muslim men...the fact is many Muslim women don't wear a burkha, let alone the men force them to do so. A generalisation.

Post #13; "...Muslim people do not integrate ...", and, "....they do not adapt and integrate ....".

Sweeping generalisations.

Au contraire indeed.

1. The Forum Netiquette* of Thaivisa doesn't allow to post and answer within someone else's post. Its not done so to speak.

2. Politeness (that's how my parents raised me... ) tells me to answer you although I hesitated.

3. Your comments and believes are in the eyes of the beholder, in this case your eyes, and you're trying to push me in the corner of Muslim haters but I'm sorry, you won't succeed. You miss completely the meaning, my thoughts as well as explanations of my previous messages but I will give it a last try:

Religion, in this case the Islam and their laws, is causing problems in Europe; big problems and I doubt if you are able to sense that feeling within Europe if you're not there, being in NZ.

But, maybe you would like to study a bit on a lazy Sunday evening and go back in history when the Medieval Inquisition** (1184-1230) by the Catholic Church took place and caused enormous uproar in good old Europe when they burned, tortured and expelled people if they didn't follow "the Catholic Laws of Rome", so there's nothing new under the horizon. Later, a Portuguese- and Roman Inquisition followed in the 16th century.

Maybe you have no idea what (immigrated and paid by from religious Arab states) Imams are telling, NO, SCREAMING (!!) (in Arab) to their audiences in the Mosques of Europe but I tell you it's not very nice and comfortable for the population of many countries; those moralizing preaches have been translated and governments were shocked..... ...and so am I.

They're now trying to expel those same Imams but it's not even that simple.

But, of course, that doesn't mean that ALL Muslim people are to be blamed.

* Forum Netiquette: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Forum-Netiquette-t254949.html

** http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Inquisition

Burkini:

If Arab states have the right to cover their women with burkas and forbid sexy dressed women in their streets or beaches, forbid women to drive a car, forbid a woman to talk to a (stranger) man (asking for the directions ( )...what's wrong with a European country, forbidding a burkini in a swimming pool ?

France (and many other countries in Europe) have nud_e beaches; do the Arabs have them too ? Does France forbid Muslims to go and have a peek at beautiful blondes (and Brunettes) on French beaches ?

Do the Arabs forbid the same beautiful blondes -and Brunettes- to bath nud_e on their beaches ?

What a world

LaoPo

If Arab states have the right to cover their women with burkas and forbid sexy dressed women in their streets or beaches, forbid women to drive a car, forbid a woman to talk to a (stranger) man (asking for the directions ( )...what's wrong with a European country, forbidding a burkini in a swimming pool ?

Absolutely LaoPo.

My mrs (and all other foreigners I know) hate wearing the Abaya and not being able to drive etc but we live in Saudi, so we conform. End of. We don't start to try and cause problems, we just get on with it.

Interestingly. Have you noticed the minute you get on a plane, loads of the women ditch their Abayas and Hijabs. Many also start to drink alcohol etc. We sometimes drive down to Bahrain and the second you get over the causeway and enter Bahrain, the woman kicks her hubby out of the driving seat and drives herself. To me, that says they are being supressed in their own country from what they would like and prefer to do. Speaking to many younger Arab men, they also believe that the "tradition" is also outdated.

If Arab states have the right to cover their women with burkas and forbid sexy dressed women in their streets or beaches, forbid women to drive a car, forbid a woman to talk to a (stranger) man (asking for the directions ( )...what's wrong with a European country, forbidding a burkini in a swimming pool ?

Absolutely LaoPo.

My mrs (and all other foreigners I know) hate wearing the Abaya and not being able to drive etc but we live in Saudi, so we conform. End of. We don't start to try and cause problems, we just get on with it.

Interestingly. Have you noticed the minute you get on a plane, loads of the women ditch their Abayas and Hijabs. Many also start to drink alcohol etc. We sometimes drive down to Bahrain and the second you get over the causeway and enter Bahrain, the woman kicks her hubby out of the driving seat and drives herself.

To me, that says they are being supressed in their own country from what they would like and prefer to do. Speaking to many younger Arab men, they also believe that the "tradition" is also outdated.

About your last sentence: that was exactly what I was talking about, watching that serious documentary when Moroccan Ladies were openly questioning WHAT went wrong, WHAT caused the changes......the change when she remembered her aunties, her mother, wearing short skirts and beautiful blouses, scarfs and wigs but now all dressed up in a burka...

So: why do these women change and ditch their clothes when they enter an airplane or approaching Bahrain ? Because they love their Abayas and Hijabs so much or because the Imams and leaders and men tell/force to wear them?

And, before someone starts again about generalizations.....it's ALL over the place in Islamic countries and now in Europe spreading too, so it's not a few fanatics, it's the leaders of the Islam that impose such dramatic changes.

If someone followed the recent uproar in Iran a bit it says something about the unrest amongst the population; the students, the liberal people...they ALL want reforms, changes, BUT the Imams will not let them.

But, what some may miss in my goals, explaining myself, is that my fear lies within those same changes, imposed by these radical Imams and leaders.

Again: I have nothing against whatever religion (I was raised as a Roman Catholic and was "forced" to attend church 8 times per week and was told and taught what was wrong and right -in THEIR eyes- ) but, luckily I was able to wrestle myself out of the Catholic religion when I reached the age of 16 and up.

Is it possible to get out of the Islam ? Is it possible for a son or daughter, born in Islamic culture/religion to say to their parents:

"Mom/Dad: sorry but I'm not going to the Mosgue anymore, I'm going with John to Rome next week and shake hands with the Pope.......or: I'm joining Samuel to his Synagoge tonight...."........is it ?

At least we are able to enjoy the freedom of choice..freedom of religion, freedom of choosing our own spouse.....a Buddhist girl, a Jewish girl, a Christian boy.

..are they able to make a free choice ? Can you marry an Indonesian girl without accepting and converting into Islam ? Can an Arab girl marry anyone she wants ?

The OP spoke of white supremacy.....I'm not so afraid of white supremacy.

Interesting topic!

LaoPo

It's a VERY thin ------------------------------------------------------------------- you're walking on...

I don't understand what you mean by "I find this topic interesting because in America we really don’t have this issue...".

Are you talking racism or culture ?

LaoPo

culture? what culture?

That's my point. We Yanks defend our laws more than what kind of culture we have. Americans confuse the words laws and culture, we always talk about our freedom, that is our laws. Talk about our culture and it's reality TV and fast food.