If Arab states have the right to cover their women with burkas and forbid sexy dressed women in their streets or beaches, forbid women to drive a car, forbid a woman to talk to a (stranger) man (asking for the directions ( )...what's wrong with a European country, forbidding a burkini in a swimming pool ?

Absolutely LaoPo.

My mrs (and all other foreigners I know) hate wearing the Abaya and not being able to drive etc but we live in Saudi, so we conform. End of. We don't start to try and cause problems, we just get on with it.

Interestingly. Have you noticed the minute you get on a plane, loads of the women ditch their Abayas and Hijabs. Many also start to drink alcohol etc. We sometimes drive down to Bahrain and the second you get over the causeway and enter Bahrain, the woman kicks her hubby out of the driving seat and drives herself.

To me, that says they are being supressed in their own country from what they would like and prefer to do. Speaking to many younger Arab men, they also believe that the "tradition" is also outdated.

About your last sentence: that was exactly what I was talking about, watching that serious documentary when Moroccan Ladies were openly questioning WHAT went wrong, WHAT caused the changes......the change when she remembered her aunties, her mother, wearing short skirts and beautiful blouses, scarfs and wigs but now all dressed up in a burka...

So: why do these women change and ditch their clothes when they enter an airplane or approaching Bahrain ? Because they love their Abayas and Hijabs so much or because the Imams and leaders and men tell/force to wear them?

And, before someone starts again about generalizations.....it's ALL over the place in Islamic countries and now in Europe spreading too, so it's not a few fanatics, it's the leaders of the Islam that impose such dramatic changes.

If someone followed the recent uproar in Iran a bit it says something about the unrest amongst the population; the students, the liberal people...they ALL want reforms, changes, BUT the Imams will not let them.

But, what some may miss in my goals, explaining myself, is that my fear lies within those same changes, imposed by these radical Imams and leaders.

Again: I have nothing against whatever religion (I was raised as a Roman Catholic and was "forced" to attend church 8 times per week and was told and taught what was wrong and right -in THEIR eyes- ) but, luckily I was able to wrestle myself out of the Catholic religion when I reached the age of 16 and up.

Is it possible to get out of the Islam ? Is it possible for a son or daughter, born in Islamic culture/religion to say to their parents:

"Mom/Dad: sorry but I'm not going to the Mosgue anymore, I'm going with John to Rome next week and shake hands with the Pope.......or: I'm joining Samuel to his Synagoge tonight...."........is it ?

At least we are able to enjoy the freedom of choice..freedom of religion, freedom of choosing our own spouse.....a Buddhist girl, a Jewish girl, a Christian boy.

..are they able to make a free choice ? Can you marry an Indonesian girl without accepting and converting into Islam ? Can an Arab girl marry anyone she wants ?

The OP spoke of white supremacy.....I'm not so afraid of white supremacy.

Interesting topic!

LaoPo

You have made me think of one of the truths of history, it is the radicals on the edges of mainstream society that gets everyone else involved in violence. Imam and Nazis have too much in common.

Imam and Nazis have too much in common.

and IQs which differ immensely from each other are not uncommon.

Can you marry an Indonesian girl without accepting and converting into Islam ?

LaoPo

No, you cannot.

However, that very same Indo girl can make her own decision as to whether she wears the Jilbab.

I don't know if this adds to the topic at all, but seeing as Ramadan is upon us it is glaringly obvious here in Indo that there are huge contrasts between how a christian can celebrate and how a muslim can.

Christmas is a very hushed affair here, whereas Hari Raya is huge.

Ramadan not just affects indonesian muslims, but also indonesian christians as it is forced upon them, however, it would be a huge insult to give a muslim a christams present (and may well result in violence).

So if things can be that different for two different people in their own country, what chance do immigrants have?

(dam_n, I wish I could get my thoughts down as they appear in my mind, the typed word just doesn't convey my meaning)

Just to add, my girlfriend wears her Jilbab to Uni and quite often to shops as it makes her feel more comfortable.

Nobody stares at her when she is wearing it, she feels less threatened and not like a sexual object at all.

She actually chooses it. I know for a fact she would never choose a full hijab or similar, but I wonder how many of those woman that do wear them feel similar to my girlfriend?

She actually chooses it.

At least she has the choice Tuky. Some women (in countries that allow) wear skimpy clothes cos they like to look "sexy". Others wear more liberal clothing but they have the choice. Women here in Saudi for instance, don't have an option, it is forced on them what they have to wear.

At least she has the choice Tuky. Some women (in countries that allow) wear skimpy clothes cos they like to look "sexy". Others wear more liberal clothing but they have the choice. Women here in Saudi for instance, don't have an option, it is forced on them what they have to wear.

in my country (and yours too) ladies are forced to cover their boobs in public (as opposed to the customs in an african country where i lived several years). no matter how sexy they might look they are not allowed to let them bounce freely and enjoy the fresh air. they don't have an option. what a shame!

To that i concur Naam.

Caveat: although i thank heaven sometimes that some women are covered up

At least she has the choice Tuky. Some women (in countries that allow) wear skimpy clothes cos they like to look "sexy". Others wear more liberal clothing but they have the choice. Women here in Saudi for instance, don't have an option, it is forced on them what they have to wear.

in my country (and yours too) ladies are forced to cover their boobs in public (as opposed to the customs in an african country where i lived several years). no matter how sexy they might look they are not allowed to let them bounce freely and enjoy the fresh air. they don't have an option. what a shame!

What's keeping you from going back to that country Naam ? I'm sure you could build a nice villa there, even cheaper than in LOS.

Did the western expat women, living in said African country, adapt to that beautiful custom as well ?

LaoPo

At least she has the choice Tuky. Some women (in countries that allow) wear skimpy clothes cos they like to look "sexy". Others wear more liberal clothing but they have the choice. Women here in Saudi for instance, don't have an option, it is forced on them what they have to wear.

in my country (and yours too) ladies are forced to cover their boobs in public (as opposed to the customs in an african country where i lived several years). no matter how sexy they might look they are not allowed to let them bounce freely and enjoy the fresh air. they don't have an option. what a shame!

What's keeping you from going back to that country Naam ? I'm sure you could build a nice villa there, even cheaper than in LOS.

Did the western expat women, living in said African country, adapt to that beautiful custom as well ?

LaoPo

i did not refer to me and my preferences but to the poor ladies in my country who are not allowed to show their boobs or walk around totally "nekkid" in public if they please to do so. it is a fact that they are forced to cover up. perhaps by christian Imams?

At least she has the choice Tuky. Some women (in countries that allow) wear skimpy clothes cos they like to look "sexy". Others wear more liberal clothing but they have the choice. Women here in Saudi for instance, don't have an option, it is forced on them what they have to wear.

in my country (and yours too) ladies are forced to cover their boobs in public (as opposed to the customs in an african country where i lived several years). no matter how sexy they might look they are not allowed to let them bounce freely and enjoy the fresh air. they don't have an option. what a shame!

What's keeping you from going back to that country Naam ? I'm sure you could build a nice villa there, even cheaper than in LOS.

Did the western expat women, living in said African country, adapt to that beautiful custom as well ?

LaoPo

i did not refer to me and my preferences but to the poor ladies in my country who are not allowed to show their boobs or walk around totally "nekkid" in public if they please to do so. it is a fact that they are forced to cover up. perhaps by christian Imams?

Do you mean those same Christian Imams that rally for the "crusade" (quote GW Bush) against WOMD that don't exist?

Do you mean those same Christian Imams that rally for the "crusade" (quote GW Bush) against WOMD that don't exist?

Those cats are just the same. I have lived long enough with those wackos that I know what would start to happen if America got truely poor and desparate. Christian suicide bombers for Jesus!!!

What is new about going to war for Christ.

Been happening for centuries, same enemy, <deleted>

How does the song go???????????????

Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war,

with the cross of Jesus going on before.

Christ, the royal Master, leads against the foe;

forward into battle see his banners go!

What is new about going to war for Christ.

Been happening for centuries, same enemy, <deleted>

How does the song go???????????????

Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war,

with the cross of Jesus going on before.

Christ, the royal Master, leads against the foe;

forward into battle see his banners go!

There's nothing new about it.....it's just convenient not to mention it when trying to make out that Muslims are the brutal, dogmatic, antogonistic religious fanatics that are the root of the world's upsets.

I have been reading this thread with great interest. However, I now feel I should contribute as a 'christian' perspective has been introduced. Scripture makes it clear (I won't quote the diverse and various references) it is totally wrong for a christian to go to war. Any who do so do not understand the clear instruction not to do so.

Now, let's be clear here, as Bops has alluded there are those 'wackos' (his word ) who will interpret by their own volition a need to be suicide bombers for christ, well, they know not the scriptures nor the power of God!

I have been reading this thread with great interest. However, I now feel I should contribute as a 'christian' perspective has been introduced. Scripture makes it clear (I won't quote the diverse and various references) it is totally wrong for a christian to go to war. Any who do so do not understand the clear instruction not to do so.

Now, let's be clear here, as Bops has alluded there are those 'wackos' (his word ) who will interpret by their own volition a need to be suicide bombers for christ, well, they know not the scriptures nor the power of God!

who, pray tell, said "Then he said to them, "But now whoever has a wallet must take it along, and his traveling bag, too. And the one who has no sword must sell his coat and buy one."?

Now we are hitting another problem here. These religions have thoughts which are helpful even today and then a bunch of violent bronze age sh!t that does not help us at all. It would be great if the compassion aspect of these faith could be divorced from the brimstone passages. Yes, the folks who focus on the bronze age crap are nutters, driven by passions of the ego, wanting to be righteous! I fear them whether they carry a cross or a crescent.

who, pray tell, said "Then he said to them, "But now whoever has a wallet must take it along, and his traveling bag, too. And the one who has no sword must sell his coat and buy one."?

Luke. But he was taken out of context

Now we are hitting another problem here. These religions have thoughts which are helpful even today and then a bunch of violent bronze age sh!t that does not help us at all. It would be great if the compassion aspect of these faith could be divorced from the brimstone passages. Yes, the folks who focus on the bronze age crap are nutters, driven by passions of the ego, wanting to be righteous! I fear them whether they carry a cross or a crescent.

Yes.

The weekend events in Birmingham may be of interest. The English defence League who stand against Islamic Fundamentalism ( so they say ) are made up of a smattering of genuine people, a touch of Footie Hooligan types and some very nasty far right boys who should have been smothered at birth. This said however, in dear old Brum ( report form copper on the ground ) these EDL types had pledged non-violence and basically joined together sang a song or two and got pissed. No matter what you think of then, surely they had the right to congregate in a non-violent way and make their points heard ( formed after British Muslims jeered returning war dead ) after all everyone else seems to have that right in the UK ?

Well couple of beers and a sing song later over two hundred hooded and masked Asian youths turned up and went for it.

Interesting point for me is that in the PC West, the Asian youths in this instance were clearly the aggressors in a violent way, and can not claim that they were the victims of racist attacks, as it was they who did the attacking. This lack of PC headlines resulted in an event that saw over ninety people arrested not mentioned on BBC International, a mere sub-line on SKY and the event never even made it to the front page of the Beeb's web page.

Now imagine if the Asians were attacked by two hundred hooded white youths..............Oh the calamity.

This " reverse racism " will only drag the West into an ever deepening spiral. Post WW1, the socialists, were allowed to be bully boys on the streets of Europe. Middle classes finally said enough was enough and even the moderates in Central Europe threw their lot in with a vile little Austrian..........not good.

I have been reading this thread with great interest. However, I now feel I should contribute as a 'christian' perspective has been introduced. Scripture makes it clear (I won't quote the diverse and various references) it is totally wrong for a christian to go to war. Any who do so do not understand the clear instruction not to do so.

Now, let's be clear here, as Bops has alluded there are those 'wackos' (his word ) who will interpret by their own volition a need to be suicide bombers for christ, well, they know not the scriptures nor the power of God!

who, pray tell, said "Then he said to them, "But now whoever has a wallet must take it along, and his traveling bag, too. And the one who has no sword must sell his coat and buy one."?

Thanks Naam for exactly proving my point. Is this the sort of verse that Germany and Britain, (both Christian countries) used to bomb the shit out of each other. Selective reading of scripture to justify mass slaughter of the Jews, what else can we mention.

How about: 'Love your enemies', or 'Love your neighbour as yourself' or if someone strikes you on the right cheek offer to him the left also' or 'If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.'

Should I go on? No! It would be a waste of time...

I have been reading this thread with great interest. However, I now feel I should contribute as a 'christian' perspective has been introduced. Scripture makes it clear (I won't quote the diverse and various references) it is totally wrong for a christian to go to war. Any who do so do not understand the clear instruction not to do so.

Now, let's be clear here, as Bops has alluded there are those 'wackos' (his word ) who will interpret by their own volition a need to be suicide bombers for christ, well, they know not the scriptures nor the power of God!

who, pray tell, said "Then he said to them, "But now whoever has a wallet must take it along, and his traveling bag, too. And the one who has no sword must sell his coat and buy one."?

Thanks Naam for exactly proving my point. Is this the sort of verse that Germany and Britain, (both Christian countries) used to bomb the shit out of each other. Selective reading of scripture to justify mass slaughter of the Jews, what else can we mention.

How about: 'Love your enemies', or 'Love your neighbour as yourself' or if someone strikes you on the right cheek offer to him the left also' or 'If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.'

Should I go on? No! It would be a waste of time...

Thou shalt not kill? Surely that's definitive enough?

Good point endure. Another that I thought of later when Peter attacked Malchus and chopped off his ear Jesus said: "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword."

Good point endure. Another that I thought of later when Peter attacked Malchus and chopped off his ear Jesus said: "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword."

Why is it so hard for people to understand that what comes around goes around? I believe if people truly understood that point they would think twice, and even thrice, and maybe more before selecting their thoughts and actions. What comes around goes around . . . but not always in a literal fashion. And since it is not always literal when it does "go around" again perhaps people have difficulty in connecting the dots.

The weekend events in Birmingham may be of interest. The English defence League who stand against Islamic Fundamentalism ( so they say ) are made up of a smattering of genuine people, a touch of Footie Hooligan types and some very nasty far right boys who should have been smothered at birth. This said however, in dear old Brum ( report form copper on the ground ) these EDL types had pledged non-violence and basically joined together sang a song or two and got pissed. No matter what you think of then, surely they had the right to congregate in a non-violent way and make their points heard ( formed after British Muslims jeered returning war dead ) after all everyone else seems to have that right in the UK ?

Well couple of beers and a sing song later over two hundred hooded and masked Asian youths turned up and went for it.

Interesting point for me is that in the PC West, the Asian youths in this instance were clearly the aggressors in a violent way, and can not claim that they were the victims of racist attacks, as it was they who did the attacking. This lack of PC headlines resulted in an event that saw over ninety people arrested not mentioned on BBC International, a mere sub-line on SKY and the event never even made it to the front page of the Beeb's web page.

Now imagine if the Asians were attacked by two hundred hooded white youths..............Oh the calamity.

This " reverse racism " will only drag the West into an ever deepening spiral. Post WW1, the socialists, were allowed to be bully boys on the streets of Europe. Middle classes finally said enough was enough and even the moderates in Central Europe threw their lot in with a vile little Austrian..........not good.

This is a good point. America has the same issues. If white commit a crime against blacks it's racism no questions asked, this doesn't work the other way around. I remember in MN a group of white kids that took a wrong turn and ended up in the black part of town, four of them there was. Well, a group of blacks just happen to decide to rob and kill them, but not beofre raping the women of the group while the men watched. This has never been called a hate crime by our court of law. Shameful, and terrifing because cases like this make a lot of white people with guns pissed off, I know many of them.

Good point endure. Another that I thought of later when Peter attacked Malchus and chopped off his ear Jesus said: "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword."

Why is it so hard for people to understand that what comes around goes around? I believe if people truly understood that point they would think twice, and even thrice, and maybe more before selecting their thoughts and actions. What comes around goes around . . . but not always in a literal fashion. And since it is not always literal when it does "go around" again perhaps people have difficulty in connecting the dots.

I think this the classic case of when you pay the piper. If tomorrow the debt will be due a person may think twice, but if the debt is due at an undetermined time and maybe in the distant future the threat doesn't seem close and therefore not thought about before the action is carried out.

Good point endure. Another that I thought of later when Peter attacked Malchus and chopped off his ear Jesus said: "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword."

Why is it so hard for people to understand that what comes around goes around? I believe if people truly understood that point they would think twice, and even thrice, and maybe more before selecting their thoughts and actions. What comes around goes around . . . but not always in a literal fashion. And since it is not always literal when it does "go around" again perhaps people have difficulty in connecting the dots.

I think this the classic case of when you pay the piper. If tomorrow the debt will be due a person may think twice, but if the debt is due at an undetermined time and maybe in the distant future the threat doesn't seem close and therefore not thought about before the action is carried out.

A lot of people actually think they can avoid paying the piper, period. Ah, payback is a bitch, though, especially when you don't think you owe.

Good point endure. Another that I thought of later when Peter attacked Malchus and chopped off his ear Jesus said: "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword."

Why is it so hard for people to understand that what comes around goes around? I believe if people truly understood that point they would think twice, and even thrice, and maybe more before selecting their thoughts and actions. What comes around goes around . . . but not always in a literal fashion. And since it is not always literal when it does "go around" again perhaps people have difficulty in connecting the dots.

I think this the classic case of when you pay the piper. If tomorrow the debt will be due a person may think twice, but if the debt is due at an undetermined time and maybe in the distant future the threat doesn't seem close and therefore not thought about before the action is carried out.

A lot of people actually think they can avoid paying the piper, period. Ah, payback is a bitch, though, especially when you don't think you owe.

Sometimes you can see how a "Sins of the Father" meets "The Pendulum Swung Back Past BDC" scenario can come about.

A lot of people actually think they can avoid paying the piper, period. Ah, payback is a bitch, though, especially when you don't think you owe.

]

Sometimes you can see how a "Sins of the Father" meets "The Pendulum Swung Back Past BDC" scenario can come about.

New Zealand, a prime example.

The "SIN".

Signing the Treaty of Waitangi.

The war should have terminated with the maoris surrendering unconditionally.

Now, Kiwis are paying, payback, bigtime.

Maoris want aparthied, but financed by everyone else.

Mr Obama, come save New Zealand.

Good point endure. Another that I thought of later when Peter attacked Malchus and chopped off his ear Jesus said: "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword."

Luke 22:35-36: "Jesus said... sell cloak... buy sword"

Good point endure. Another that I thought of later when Peter attacked Malchus and chopped off his ear Jesus said: "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword."

Luke 22:35-36: "Jesus said... sell cloak... buy sword"

That's an interesting verse to quote and certainly is an apparent contradiction to all the other verses promoting non violence. One explanation I have heard is that it was to fulfil the next verse that Jesus quotes from Is 53.12 'And he was numbered with the transgressors'. The disciples then say they already have two swords, to which Jesus replies 'It is enough' (or it is sufficient) ie, to fulfil what was written in Isaiah.

I’ll have another think about this and get back...