If a true hunter is someone who stalks his prey for fun, then no, my father was not a true hunter. If, however, a hunter is someone who hunts to eat for survival, then yes. He was. He lost the enjoyment of killing and realized that there isn't much sport in hunting something that can't hunt you back.

Lewis Black addressed this in his inimitable style.

They don't HAVE to hunt you back. The terrain they live in is enough to kill you. I've had more close calls with the Grim Reaper when I've been hunting than any other sport I've participated in... other than free diving off cliffs.

But yes, there ARE some species that will truly hunt you. The large cats of Africa and bears of North America will hunt and kill a human. So will the mountain Lion, but they usually pick on children and women.

And thanks for the youtube skit by Lewis Black... funny guy.

But yes, there ARE some species that will truly hunt you. The large cats of Africa and bears of North America will hunt and kill a human. So will the mountain Lion, but they usually pick on children and women.

And they don't use a gun to do it.

Have gone hunting a few times, bears and deers.......but I still say the most fun is still seal clubbing.

If a true hunter is someone who stalks his prey for fun, then no, my father was not a true hunter. If, however, a hunter is someone who hunts to eat for survival, then yes. He was. He lost the enjoyment of killing and realized that there isn't much sport in hunting something that can't hunt you back.

Lewis Black addressed this in his inimitable style.

That clip is brilliant sbk, sums it up for me.

As a meat eater, I am not going to be a hypocrite by being anti-hunting provided the animals are killed humanely. If you are going to hunt then fine, I won't criticise but don't make out that you are 'the ultimate hunter' or 'one with the wild', because it simply isn't true.

Spend a few weeks in Africa hunting buffalo with a spear whilst in constant danger from wild animals then I think you can call yourself a true hunter, but shooting animals from distance with a high powered rifle just doesn't cut it.

Seal clubbing probably ranks right in there with fire storms to drive the critters into a pre dug pit, corral, or even over a cliff, except I do not think they eat the flesh of the former.

Seal clubbing probably ranks right in there with fire storms to drive the critters into a pre dug pit, corral, or even over a cliff, except I do not think they eat the flesh of the former.

No, but they get the fur.

That clip is brilliant sbk, sums it up for me.

As a meat eater, I am not going to be a hypocrite by being anti-hunting provided the animals are killed humanely. If you are going to hunt then fine, I won't criticise but don't make out that you are 'the ultimate hunter' or 'one with the wild', because it simply isn't true.

Spend a few weeks in Africa hunting buffalo with a spear whilst in constant danger from wild animals then I think you can call yourself a true hunter, but shooting animals from distance with a high powered rifle just doesn't cut it.

If you believe that clip typifies a true hunter then you must believe that EVERY humorous stand up comic is telling the absolute truth.

A true hunter owes it to his prey to kill it quickly and cleanly from a distance that assures it happens. And THAT is why they use a high powered rifle. The Sunday hunters who buy a license and don't have a clue about their quarry are not sportsmen or true hunters. They are just guys out hoping to kill something.

As I've already stated, I've come closer to meeting my maker while hunting and fishing than any other sport I've tried, with the exception of free diving off high cliffs. Falling off cliffs is a real possibility when hunting mountain game. I've come within a whisker of doing so on more than a few occasions. Getting lost and freezing to death is another possibility. If you break a leg in the wilderness while alone it can be game over.

And, there are some very close parallels between a true hunter and an angler. Both actively search for specific game and try to take it in a sporting manner.

As I've already stated, I've come closer to meeting my maker while hunting and fishing than any other sport I've tried, with the exception of free diving off high cliffs. Falling off cliffs is a real possibility when hunting mountain game. I've come within a whisker of doing so on more than a few occasions. Getting lost and freezing to death is another possibility. If you break a leg in the wilderness while alone it can be game over.

So basically what you are saying is that your prey is pretty much dead meat, and so are you if you <deleted> up and mother nature or pure stupidity takes control....... arm the animals and see how well you do.... or try hunting other people with similar capabilities, that would be a sport as it is an even match, shooting animals from a distance is not a sport.

Every animal I have ever killed just made me feel sick. I don't enjoy it in any way.

As I've already stated, I've come closer to meeting my maker while hunting and fishing than any other sport I've tried, with the exception of free diving off high cliffs. Falling off cliffs is a real possibility when hunting mountain game. I've come within a whisker of doing so on more than a few occasions. Getting lost and freezing to death is another possibility. If you break a leg in the wilderness while alone it can be game over.

So basically what you are saying is that your prey is pretty much dead meat, and so are you if you <deleted> up and mother nature or pure stupidity takes control....... arm the animals and see how well you do.... or try hunting other people with similar capabilities, that would be a sport as it is an even match, shooting animals from a distance is not a sport.

You have your opinion, Thaddeus, and I have mine. You are as entitled to your opinion and I respect that. As I already stated, I seldom hunt with a gun anymore because I don't need the meat. But, I'll defend the right of other hunters who DO want to harvest meat and trophy animals. They are a sustainable resource. I will also accept the position of the vegans who don't believe humans have the right to kill any other creature. It's no different than choice of religion and people go to wars over that. But, I will call hypocracy on anyone who eats meat but says hunting is wrong.

All I was making a point of is there are true hunters and then there are the Sunday hunters who have very little idea about how nature operates. If true hunting was all that easy then a hunter would never go home skunked. There ARE physical and mental skills involved whether you believe it or not.

And, the world since cave man days has revolved around hunting. The native tribes held the best hunters in true esteem and they were considered more important than anyone else in the tribe because they supplied the food.

As far as hunting those that can hunt back is concerned, it has also evolved since cave man days. Man has ALWAYS been warring with his neighbours... as a form of sport. Why do you thing the modern day generals LIKE playing their little war games, and they think up ways and reasons to attack lesser countries they think they can beat.

But, I'll defend the right of other hunters who DO want to harvest meat and trophy animals.

They are a sustainable resource.

It's no different than choice of religion and people go to wars over that. But, I will call hypocracy on anyone who eats meat but says hunting is wrong.

And, the world since cave man days has revolved around hunting. The native tribes held the best hunters in true esteem and they were considered more important than anyone else in the tribe because they supplied the food.

As far as hunting those that can hunt back is concerned, it has also evolved since cave man days. Man has ALWAYS been warring with his neighbours... as a form of sport. Why do you thing the modern day generals LIKE playing their little war games, and they think up ways and reasons to attack lesser countries they think they can beat.

Before I respond please tell me if the above are 'tongue firmly in cheek', or an attempt at reasoned debate.

If it is 'tongue in cheek' it does not merit response, if it is 'reasoned debate', then I will respond, if only to treat it with the contempt it deserves.

As I've already stated, I've come closer to meeting my maker while hunting and fishing than any other sport I've tried, with the exception of free diving off high cliffs. Falling off cliffs is a real possibility when hunting mountain game. I've come within a whisker of doing so on more than a few occasions. Getting lost and freezing to death is another possibility. If you break a leg in the wilderness while alone it can be game over.

So basically what you are saying is that your prey is pretty much dead meat, and so are you if you <deleted> up and mother nature or pure stupidity takes control....... arm the animals and see how well you do.... or try hunting other people with similar capabilities, that would be a sport as it is an even match, shooting animals from a distance is not a sport.

You have your opinion, Thaddeus, and I have mine. You are as entitled to your opinion and I respect that. As I already stated, I seldom hunt with a gun anymore because I don't need the meat. But, I'll defend the right of other hunters who DO want to harvest meat and trophy animals. They are a sustainable resource. I will also accept the position of the vegans who don't believe humans have the right to kill any other creature. It's no different than choice of religion and people go to wars over that. But, I will call hypocracy on anyone who eats meat but says hunting is wrong.

All I was making a point of is there are true hunters and then there are the Sunday hunters who have very little idea about how nature operates. If true hunting was all that easy then a hunter would never go home skunked. There ARE physical and mental skills involved whether you believe it or not.

And, the world since cave man days has revolved around hunting. The native tribes held the best hunters in true esteem and they were considered more important than anyone else in the tribe because they supplied the food.

As far as hunting those that can hunt back is concerned, it has also evolved since cave man days. Man has ALWAYS been warring with his neighbours... as a form of sport. Why do you thing the modern day generals LIKE playing their little war games, and they think up ways and reasons to attack lesser countries they think they can beat.

Don't agree. The hunters were always controlled by the smart people who couldn't hunt.

These used to do clever things like predicting the seasons and counting to ten to impress the tribe and when they got it wrong invented "gods" to blame and we all know what that led to.

Why do you thing the modern day generals LIKE playing their little war games, and they think up ways and reasons to attack lesser countries they think they can beat.

Possibly the wrong track to go down, I'm British, that means that I am fairly well versed in the notion of conquering nations that are only armed with sharpened banana leaves..... so I'll leave that one there.

As for being a meat eater against hunting being hypocritical, that just doesn't make any sense, as a species we are omnivorous, you can check the dental work for confirmation of that and I have absolutely no problem with being served a nice sirloin steak that someone has raised and slaughtered for me, we are human, that is what we do....... but there is zero fun in the process.

I have no problem with anyone who needs to hunt to live, but to hunt just for self gratification is just plain wrong.

You can pit your wits against mother nature all you want, she is a far better hunter than you will ever be, and she proves it over and over again. (more of a trapper really)

(no animals were harmed in the making of this post)

Possibly the wrong track to go down, I'm British, that means that I am fairly well versed in the notion of conquering nations that are only armed with sharpened banana leaves..... so I'll leave that one there

I don't recall any conquering nations that over powered other countries with sharpened banana leaves, but I DO know many conquering nations that used superior weapons to subdue other nations. Please enlighten me if I'm wrong.

The process of raising animals for slaughter is just more efficient than physically going out and hunting for wild game. It doesn't make the process of killing for meat any more noble. And, it is VERY British to have someone else do all the work while the estemed upper crust of society sit around in pomp and splendour.

Like I said, we can agree to disagree on the process of hunting and the enjoyment that some people get out of it. It's not a lot different that whacking somebody in a game of football or boxing. To each his own.

I DO have my tongue stuck firmly in my cheek in many of my statements on these forums, but this subject is not one of them. I'm quite willing to debate any subject I know something about, and possibly even something I don't know a lot about... but for different reasons. In any debate you can learn something... even if it is just a better understanding on how others reason or think.

I believe you misread Thaddeus' post Ian. He said the opposite.

Personally I agree with what people have written. Ive stayed away from this topic because its a hard one to digest. I dont have a hunters mind frame. I dont understand what pleasure or entertainment or enjoyment can be derived from hunting an animal. I also think your view on British people is...no..actually..i wont get into that either....

Just one last thing though.."whacking somebody in a game of football or boxing" is COMPLETELY different. How can you say its not a lot different? Do you really think that? When you hunt you have a weapon, you stalk, then you kill. How is that comparable to say boxers who are well matched to fight each other, who fight on equal terms, and fight by choice? (and rarely result in death).

The process of raising animals for slaughter is just more efficient than physically going out and hunting for wild game. It doesn't make the process of killing for meat any more noble.

I don't like hunting. I don't like killing animals. In fact. it bothers me to hear someone say that they enjoy killing them, but I do like eating meat. Ian has a real point here as many animals live a torturous life, so that we can eat them. Is being shot and killed quickly any worse?

Then there's the priority angle: Take PETA for example....they rush around expending their energies for the sake of a caged gerbil, but don't seem to give a hoot for the begger that they passed on their way to free the gerbil.

Free the gerbil, let the human die.

Is there any difference between killing animals for fun or meat, and wantonly killing mice that may get into your kitchen?

What REAL harm did the mouse do?

Nasty disease carrying vermin.

On the side of the animals, there are far more government organisations, NGOs. dogooders, bleeding heart organisations etc protecting and nurturing humans than there are for animals.

What the animals have going for them as far as I'm concerned is that they are so seldom the cause of their problems or the masters of their own destiny.

Come to think of it.

Why hunt the animal with a gun at all. Why not hunt it with say, a high powered telescopic lens that still requires you to 'brave' the elements and get into a good position to shoot the animal (with a camera).

If not hunting for food, then why does the animal have to die at all?

Camera safaris are enormously popular world wide now and in many ecologically sensitive areas have replaced hunting and provide a valuable source of income for national parks.

(Just don't get too close to the stingrays).

Come to think of it.

Why hunt the animal with a gun at all. Why not hunt it with say, a high powered telescopic lens that still requires you to 'brave' the elements and get into a good position to shoot the animal (with a camera).

If not hunting for food, then why does the animal have to die at all?

Well exactly. Giving a hunting thrill but without the need for bloodshed. Unless of course people somehow need to feel the power of killing something, which to be honest seems barbaric.

When i was younger, i campaigned and supported animal rights...but I was never an extremist. (I also support some human rights as well...in case i get lambasted about having consideration for animals but not humans.) At that time I ended up becoming vegan. For around 5 years. Then, something changed. I cant put my finger on it exactly. But i realised that I didnt need to think so extreme. Not only for my health (although you CAN be healthy on a vegan diet!), but also I decided i wanted a less strict way of living. I now eat some dairy and eggs. Many people who know me wouldnt know that im vegetarian or not, because i feel its private. Only when i eat out will some notice and comment, but again, i rarely enter into a discussion about it...certainly not much beyond a polite exchange. Ive been vegetarian since i was 16..and im all talked out. I choose to eat some animal by-products as well as wear some animal by-products, and that is a result of choice based on understanding, research, and finally my own belief on how i should live my life. I believe i should do what i can..that doesnt mean i need to be a martyr.

I understand people wish to eat meat, even though I honestly find it ..well..appalling to be honest. But, i dont put my views on others. I accept their choice. However, the way animals are farmed for meat can improve. The methods and their quality of life can improve. From campaigning and public awareness, there are more options for buying meat..meat that comes from farms that are more humane. Ive seen some horrific secretly filmed footage of animals killed in the most terrible ways. Ie: a cow that had been electric stunned prior to skinning, but during the skinning process came too, because the charge was not strong enough to kill it. Can you imagine? This is not a one off thing. The conditions of battery chicks/hens is enough to put many people off chicken for life. There is no need for this way of doing things. People dont need to consume the vast quantities of cheap meat at the expense of the quality of another creatures life.

I also understand too the need for culling, but again culling in a humane way. This again is very different for killing for pleasure.

If people wish to eat meat, fair enough, but i hope we have a world where we eventually have only humane ways of giving them that. To be honest, i think many people are seeing the benefits of having a meat free (or mainly meat free) diet. I remember when i first became vegetarian people would mock me and think me crazy (i mean in the west). Now..you see the vegetarian symbol in so many restaurants and food products. Not so rare anymore at all. The way things are going, i think we will have a lot more people turning towards a more vegetarian based diet, and a lot less people who think that its cool to go take a pop shot at something that cant defend itself. Thats what progress does. ..and we dont live in the dark ages anymore.

Wow, this thread has taken some real twists and turns!

What is a hunter? He (or she) is a person who thrives on being the ultimate predator. In the army a sniper would make a good hunter, and a good hunter would make a good sniper. It is both mental and physical conditioning. A hunter needs to have the utmost patience and be willing to spend long hours on full concentration. A hunter moves with a purpose whether it is fast or slow. A hunter is totally aware of his surroundings and has complete confidence in his own abilities. A hunter can survive with the minimum of equipment, even in harsh surroundings and over night if necessary. Other predators such as cats, nasty dogs and large ferocious animals are instantly aware that a hunter is a potential threat and not to be tampered with. Most will back down from a hunter when they might attack a regular person. A hunter chooses his prey intentionally and is willing to spend whatever length of time and effort it takes to be successful. A true hunter is far different than someone who just buys a hunting license and goes off with the boys in hopes of getting a little venison. Most hunters are loners who are happy spending hours in the wilderness with nobody around for miles. They can spend weeks in a tent camp all by themselves in hopes of finding their prey. It is considered normal to camp far above the tree line with nothing more than a sheet of plastic for a shelter. And, being a hunter is something that lasts with you for a life time.

i was an outside direct salesman for more than 20 yrs and there was many a time i felt just the way you have described while i hunted my 2 legged prey.

Like I said, we can agree to disagree on the process of hunting and the enjoyment that some people get out of it. It's not a lot different that whacking somebody in a game of football or boxing. To each his own.

I'll read the next few posts in a while, but I feel a severe need to comment on this bit now.

In a boxing match you usually have two people of similar capabilities and identical armory, in a football match it's about the same but with ten other people on either side...... please tell me how those real sports compare to shooting an unarmed defenseless animal from a distance when the only injury you may suffer is stubbing your toe on a particularly large rock?

For Gods sake Ian, I agree with most of your posts on other subject material, but on this one you really have dug a hole for yourself..... my advice would be to stop digging.

I believe you misread Thaddeus' post Ian. He said the opposite.

Right on both counts.

How is that comparable to say boxers who are well matched to fight each other, who fight on equal terms, and fight by choice? (and rarely result in death).

Thanks Cap'n Squeeky.

Come to think of it.

Why hunt the animal with a gun at all. Why not hunt it with say, a high powered telescopic lens that still requires you to 'brave' the elements and get into a good position to shoot the animal (with a camera).

If not hunting for food, then why does the animal have to die at all?

I guess you completely missed the post where I said I seldom hunt with a gun any more...and mostly just hunt with a camera now because I don't need the meat. I even posted some photos of the wild animals I've taken. It takes the same skill to hunt with a camera as it does with a gun... if you do it outside a park or game reserve.

Boxers DO try to beat their oponent within an inch of death. And don't kid yourself, there is hardly EVER a well matched fight. One guy is always better than his oponent. Football players continually try to injure each other in the name of sport. So do hockey players. If a player DOESN'T TRY to injure the other team's player then they will never reach a professional level. Intimidation and mayhem is the name of the game. I know; I played all of the violent sports at one time or another.

No comment.

Recently watched a BBC program about the origins of humans. There were various species of sub-humans around thousands of years ago. Most died out.

The species that survived and evolved into, well us, was the one who learnt to work together as a tribe to scare predaters from their kill, and therefore they started to eat meat becoming true omnivours.

Scientists state that it was the protein gained from this meat diet that enabled the human brain to grow to the size where humans became the number 1 species on the planet.

I guess you completely missed the post where I said I seldom hunt with a gun any more...and mostly just hunt with a camera now because I don't need the meat. I even posted some photos of the wild animals I've taken. It takes the same skill to hunt with a camera as it does with a gun... if you do it outside a park or game reserve.

Boxers DO try to beat their oponent within an inch of death. And don't kid yourself, there is hardly EVER a well matched fight. One guy is always better than his oponent. Football players continually try to injure each other in the name of sport. So do hockey players. If a player DOESN'T TRY to injure the other team's player then they will never reach a professional level. Intimidation and mayhem is the name of the game. I know; I played all of the violent sports at one time or another.

You're right, I did miss that.

But if this thread was intended to be one about taking photo's then why have there been 3 pages on debate on animals being killed?

And a boxers intent IS NOT to kill their opponent, only to hurt them. Besides, they are both willing participants.

Any footballer anywhere in the world, or a player of any sport for that matter, whom deliberately tries to injuire the opposition simply does not belong in the game because it is NOT SPORTING to do so. If you think that they do so "in the name of sport", then I think that you don't quite understand the meaning of the word.

I noticed this from you before:

But, I suggest if that was your FATHER'S viewpoint that hunters were only trying to prove their manhood then your father was not a true hunter. He was only a person who supplemented his food supply with wild game.

Are you seriously trying to suggest that somebody who hunts for the sole purpose of supplying food is not a true hunter?

But, I suggest if that was your FATHER'S viewpoint that hunters were only trying to prove their manhood then your father was not a true hunter. He was only a person who supplemented his food supply with wild game.

Are you seriously trying to suggest that somebody who hunts for the sole purpose of supplying food is not a true hunter?

I think Ian is here distinguishing between the sportsman hunter who pits his skill and the hunter (technically) that has a more pragmatic purpose.

Sure, both are hunters by definition. The "sportsman" hunter is a narrower definition.