I spent four months here last year and am about to leave after another month.

I have a lot of friends, possibly because I'm a good listener rather than any abnormally likeable traits, and my friends cover a wide spectrum of society. I know millionaire businessmen, labourers, police officers and career criminals. I spend time in places where alcohol loosens tongues, even though I don't participate any more, and African and Muslim immigration is discussed, almost as much as football, by virtually everybody.

Total national meltdown is predicted by just about everyone. The bad words like rag heads a n*ggers are on everyone's lips and this is trying to become an issue on which to elect governments.

Do "different" immigrants matter? If they do, isn't it part of the normal evolution of society?

Listening around you'd think that female circumcision was a daily occurrence in the back rooms of Melbourne or Sydney. Fathers murdering disobedient daughters don't seem to be nearly as common as the media would like them to be. Sure it happens but Australian filiacides don't seem to gather nearly as much news space. (I made that word up. filicide didn't seem to fit).

I have visited Australia a fair number of times and I am surprised at how separated "Asians" are from the whites.

On the West Coast in America, Asians - Chinese, Japanese, Thais, etc. - are pretty much honorary whites as are 2nd generaton Mexicans. In Australia, Asians are still considered to be quite different from the majority.

I think Aussies and Canadians are similar in that they don't mind immigration, but they DO mind hearing hatred spoken by former immigrants who refuse to assimilate into their new society. It is one thing to voice frustration with certain governmental policies in their new country of choice, but something entirely different when they actually break the laws of the land they are now living in. If a foreigner did the same thing in the country they just left then that foreigner would be taken away and never heard from again. In British commonwealth countries we have the right to protest our governmental policies, and say some downright despicable things in public. If those things were said in say, Thailand, India or China then you would go straight to jail. In Burma, Iran or North Korea you would be shot or lose your head.

All us white males are losing our birthright, no? Things are changing and I'd say it has more to do with what it means now to emigrate than what particular ethnic group any group of emigres is from. When my kinfolk left Europe for America they said goodbye with the full knowledge they would never see their homeland or loved ones again. They HAD to invest themselves, make new lives for themselves and assimilate into their new society. If not the elders then certainly the kids. That's really not too necessary anymore as multiculturalism creates blocs of people who can live their entire lives in an "alien" culture without joining the "melting pot". That they have concentrated voting power and that they they can get laws passed to protect their "special rights" can make some people justifiably upset too IMO, but for the newcomers, they''re just doing what the law allows.

That said, and I know there's been some improvement, Australia is the most misogynistic and racist "western" country IMO. In America they talk about this stuff constantly in the media but most people don't dwell on others differences, with the caveat of illegal immigrants during economic downturns.

All us white males are losing our birthright, no? Things are changing and I'd say it has more to do with what it means now to emigrate than what particular ethnic group any group of emigres is from. When my kinfolk left Europe for America they said goodbye with the full knowledge they would never see their homeland or loved ones again. They HAD to invest themselves, make new lives for themselves and assimilate into their new society. If not the elders then certainly the kids. That's really not too necessary anymore as multiculturalism creates blocs of people who can live their entire lives in an "alien" culture without joining the "melting pot". That they have concentrated voting power and that they they can get laws passed to protect their "special rights" can make some people justifiably upset too IMO, but for the newcomers, they''re just doing what the law allows.

That said, and I know there's been some improvement, Australia is the most misogynistic and racist "western" country IMO. In America they talk about this stuff constantly in the media but most people don't dwell on others differences, with the caveat of illegal immigrants during economic downturns.

It's strange how we percieve things. I would have said that Australia was the least misogynistic and racist of western countries.

My father, a fuzzy haired black guy, married my mother, a blue-eyed blond, in Sydney in the late '50s. Could that have happened in America at that time? My childhood in Sydney, around the time of Malcom X's and Martin Luther King's assassinations.....I have never had the impression of being a social outcast.

New Zealand was the first country in the world to give women the vote, and I think Australia followed quite quickly.

All us white males are losing our birthright, no? Things are changing and I'd say it has more to do with what it means now to emigrate than what particular ethnic group any group of emigres is from. When my kinfolk left Europe for America they said goodbye with the full knowledge they would never see their homeland or loved ones again. They HAD to invest themselves, make new lives for themselves and assimilate into their new society. If not the elders then certainly the kids. That's really not too necessary anymore as multiculturalism creates blocs of people who can live their entire lives in an "alien" culture without joining the "melting pot". That they have concentrated voting power and that they they can get laws passed to protect their "special rights" can make some people justifiably upset too IMO, but for the newcomers, they''re just doing what the law allows.

That said, and I know there's been some improvement, Australia is the most misogynistic and racist "western" country IMO. In America they talk about this stuff constantly in the media but most people don't dwell on others differences, with the caveat of illegal immigrants during economic downturns.

It's strange how we percieve things. I would have said that Australia was the least misogynistic and racist of western countries.

My father, a fuzzy haired black guy, married my mother, a blue-eyed blond, in Sydney in the late '50s. Could that have happened in America at that time? My childhood in Sydney, around the time of Malcom X's and Martin Luther King's assassinations.....I have never had the impression of being a social outcast.

New Zealand was the first country in the world to give women the vote, and I think Australia followed quite quickly.

I've known alot of mixed race people as a child and as an adult. I do not know if they suffered any prejudice, but I know I never observed any evidence of it. I also am aware that some people have suffered from it. I'm raising a couple of mixed race children myself and the ssue has never arisen in any negative way, here or overseas.

Interesting replies.

Ulysses G as usual says what we least want to hear but once again it's difficult to deny what he says.

Aussies are racist in thought but maybe not so much in practice. Ignorance is a major problem. I remember driving past a huge immigrant hostel camp in the 80s with a 16 year old co-worker who contemptuously said "Gee, they've filled that place up with f***ing Viet Cong.

I tried to explain that the people were there because they weren't Viet Cong but he just looked at me blankly.

The Asians seemed to have settled in well, it soon became apparent that they had the values we like to ascribe to ourselves; work, home, family, money... but the Muslims and black Africans worry us.

I'm convinced the media have an agenda, if there's such a thing as a "liberal" media we don't have it here. Right is right.

Ian, we've absorbed millions of immigrants from the cauldron of WW2. Many of these people, who look exactly like us, brought their ethnic hatreds and it carries on today. Do a news search for Croat youths being evicted from the Australian tennis Open this week. These idiots are third generation Australians.

LRB... (the poster, not the band), I'd like you to expand on what you consider to be the birthright of the white male. I seem to have missed mine if there is one. This is something I hear a lot, "We were here first, we own this country, they have no work ethic, they're living off our taxes, our women aren't safe in the street, our goats aren't safe in the street.... ".

Opposition to change? Is there such a thing as a true conservative? Everything changes, try looking in the mirror.

Harcourt, if you had been in our class at school we'd have gone out of our way to make you feel accepted. Mind you, we threw stones at the German, Italian and Greek kids though... (Not the Dutch, boy could they fight).

Interesting replies.

..........Harcourt, if you had been in our class at school we'd have gone out of our way to make you feel accepted. Mind you, we threw stones at the German, Italian and Greek kids though... (Not the Dutch, boy could they fight).

Yeah exactly my recollection; no prejudice at all. I went to a slightly multi-cultural school...I can recall an Indonesian, Dutch, South African and NZ Maori.....this is why I was a bit suprised at LRB's view of Oz being racist. (I was especially suprised at his view that Aussies are misogynist!... I think 10 million assertive Aussie women would disagree with him...but that's another topic).

I think by the time I was at school, ('70s ) the Greeks of my age were "Aussies". Aussie born, Aussie accented....it was their parents and grandparents that were the "Western Oriental Gentlemen".

I think racism in Australia, although plainly it has existed everywhere since day one, has got worse in recent years. For example, did the problems with the Lebanese in Sydney even exist before 9/11?

I think the media may indeed have an agenda or an axe to grind.

I'll emulate Sceadugenga's wise precaution: The reference to 9/11 as a possible turning point in race relations in Australia was a genuine question (because I no longer lived there at the time so I do not know) and in no way implies that America's reaction to 9/11 is to blame, therefore it is not American bashing.

"I spent four months here last year and am about to leave after another month.

I have a lot of friends, possibly because I'm a good listener rather than any abnormally likeable traits, and my friends cover a wide spectrum of society. I know millionaire businessmen, labourers, police officers and career criminals. I spend time in places where alcohol loosens tongues, even though I don't participate any more, and African and Muslim immigration is discussed, almost as much as football, by virtually everybody.

Total national meltdown is predicted by just about everyone. The bad words like rag heads a n*ggers are on everyone's lips and this is trying to become an issue on which to elect governments.

Do "different" immigrants matter? If they do, isn't it part of the normal evolution of society? "

When I lived in Oz (Melbourne/Niddrie/Moonee Ponds/East Keilor 1959-1963) the 'White Australia Policy' was still in force. The major fear of Melbournians then was that the place would be deluged with all those farkin Italians. Before you knew it Oz was going to become a suburb of Milan.

It's just ignorance and a refusal to engage with people that are different. White Australians complaining about people with dark skins is just too f*cking ironic for words.

Ulysses G as usual says what we least want to hear

The story of my life!

I've tried not to adress the ""Aussies are misogynist" comment because it's not really releavant to my topic, but here we go.

The average Australian male worships and fears the female of the species. This can go wrong if the one of our desires shows less than perfect traits but true hatred is less common than you would think.

Moonee Ponds.....Did you know Dame Edna?

Interesting replies.

Ulysses G as usual says what we least want to hear but once again it's difficult to deny what he says.

Aussies are racist in thought but maybe not so much in practice. Ignorance is a major problem. I remember driving past a huge immigrant hostel camp in the 80s with a 16 year old co-worker who contemptuously said "Gee, they've filled that place up with f***ing Viet Cong.

I tried to explain that the people were there because they weren't Viet Cong but he just looked at me blankly.

The Asians seemed to have settled in well, it soon became apparent that they had the values we like to ascribe to ourselves; work, home, family, money... but the Muslims and black Africans worry us.

I'm convinced the media have an agenda, if there's such a thing as a "liberal" media we don't have it here. Right is right.

Ian, we've absorbed millions of immigrants from the cauldron of WW2. Many of these people, who look exactly like us, brought their ethnic hatreds and it carries on today. Do a news search for Croat youths being evicted from the Australian tennis Open this week. These idiots are third generation Australians.

LRB... (the poster, not the band), I'd like you to expand on what you consider to be the birthright of the white male. I seem to have missed mine if there is one. This is something I hear a lot, "We were here first, we own this country, they have no work ethic, they're living off our taxes, our women aren't safe in the street, our goats aren't safe in the street.... ".

Opposition to change? Is there such a thing as a true conservative? Everything changes, try looking in the mirror.

Harcourt, if you had been in our class at school we'd have gone out of our way to make you feel accepted. Mind you, we threw stones at the German, Italian and Greek kids though... (Not the Dutch, boy could they fight).

I missed mine too, but I think you know what I'm talking about. In all our western countries we formed a greater percentage of the workforce and naturally available positions would go to us if we were suitably qualified. As more women, minorities, and immigrants entered the workforce it is a mathematical certainty that the position of the dominant members of the labor pool would be whittled away. Further, and this is what I consider one of the greatest gifts of growing up in America during my era, most advancement in academia or the workforce was through objective evaluation criteria. Somewhere it was described what you needed to do to get what you wanted. You did it and advanced. I think subjective criteria has gained in importance now, either to redress past injustices (which I acknowledge could be real), or for social engineering or because it panders to various voting blocs of democratic nations.

Speaking for myself, nothing I accomplished in my life, whether academically or career wise could not have been done by a minority or a female. It WOULD have been more difficult for them however. Not because of any codified impediments but because the specific culture of the profession allowed for marginalising them. Mostly an all boys club. That said the best Master I ever sailed under was a woman, one of less than 5 in the country. She was just better at everything.

Interesting replies.

Ulysses G as usual says what we least want to hear but once again it's difficult to deny what he says.

Aussies are racist in thought but maybe not so much in practice. Ignorance is a major problem. I remember driving past a huge immigrant hostel camp in the 80s with a 16 year old co-worker who contemptuously said "Gee, they've filled that place up with f***ing Viet Cong.

I tried to explain that the people were there because they weren't Viet Cong but he just looked at me blankly.

The Asians seemed to have settled in well, it soon became apparent that they had the values we like to ascribe to ourselves; work, home, family, money... but the Muslims and black Africans worry us.

I'm convinced the media have an agenda, if there's such a thing as a "liberal" media we don't have it here. Right is right.

Ian, we've absorbed millions of immigrants from the cauldron of WW2. Many of these people, who look exactly like us, brought their ethnic hatreds and it carries on today. Do a news search for Croat youths being evicted from the Australian tennis Open this week. These idiots are third generation Australians.

LRB... (the poster, not the band), I'd like you to expand on what you consider to be the birthright of the white male. I seem to have missed mine if there is one. This is something I hear a lot, "We were here first, we own this country, they have no work ethic, they're living off our taxes, our women aren't safe in the street, our goats aren't safe in the street.... ".

Opposition to change? Is there such a thing as a true conservative? Everything changes, try looking in the mirror.

Harcourt, if you had been in our class at school we'd have gone out of our way to make you feel accepted. Mind you, we threw stones at the German, Italian and Greek kids though... (Not the Dutch, boy could they fight).

I missed mine too, but I think you know what I'm talking about. In all our western countries we formed a greater percentage of the workforce and naturally available positions would go to us if we were suitably qualified. As more women, minorities, and immigrants entered the workforce it is a mathematical certainty that the position of the dominant members of the labor pool would be whittled away. Further, and this is what I consider one of the greatest gifts of growing up in America during my era, most advancement in academia or the workforce was through objective evaluation criteria. Somewhere it was described what you needed to do to get what you wanted. You did it and advanced. I think subjective criteria has gained in importance now, either to redress past injustices (which I acknowledge could be real), or for social engineering or because it panders to various voting blocs of democratic nations.

Speaking for myself, nothing I accomplished in my life, whether academically or career wise could not have been done by a minority or a female. It WOULD have been more difficult for them however. Not because of any codified impediments but because the specific culture of the profession allowed for marginalising them. Mostly an all boys club. That said the best Master I ever sailed under was a woman, one of less than 5 in the country. She was just better at everything.

I'm in no position to speak for Sceagudenga, but I interpeted his post as actually wondering what you meant by "lost birthright". I'm a little unsure (too?).

I think it may be worthy of an entire thread

I've tried not to adress the ""Aussies are misogynist" comment because it's not really releavant to my topic, but here we go.

The average Australian male worships and fears the female of the species. This can go wrong if the one of our desires shows less than perfect traits but true hatred is less common than you would think.

I think true hatred of women is rare anywhere. I think of it more as an acting out of feelings of inadequacy. Mine is not a scientific survey b any means but % wise my sense is that is not uncommon Down Under. I'm not trying to needle anybody here, that's just my sense of things. My sense also is that this exists because Australia is much closer to it's frontier roots than most other western nations and the "domestication" of the populace may have begun later. I hope that doesn't sound negative, as that isn't my intent here at all.

While Scea has made a recent flying trip to Oz, and usually presents a well balanced view, it's hard to take seriously the rantings of the usual bunch of mud slinging Americans here who are delving into their recollections of Australia from visits decades ago. (Perhaps Bryson is their guide book)

While not denying that racism is rearing it's ugly head more and more these days, it is mostly about the muslum factor and the concerns arisen since 9/11. In Sydney in particular, young muslum men are pushing, sometimes violently, for their versions of ancient values for all members of society. I'm pretty sure it is reflected in most western countries these days.

The Cronulla race riots of a year or so back were heavily publicized around the world, but less emphasise was given to the reasons it erupted. In the days beforehand Lebanese gangs invaded the beach, beating up young, outnumbered lifesavers on duty and spitting at, and throwing the worst sort of insults at sunbaking girls in bikinis. (sluts!) They declared Cronulla beach was theirs and all Australians should stay away. (Although most are born in Australia they regard themselves as Lebanese and use the term Australia as a racist insult.)

A call to defend the beach was sent out via sms and the whole thing escalated beyong reason when many thousands turned up and attacked everybody from the middle east. The gangs got wind of what was happening and stayed away, but they did attack one hapless, innocent, British backpacker on the street nearly killing him.

Also, there has recently been a large increase in refugee immigration from some West and North African countries, most notably Sudan. There is a strong perception in the community that they do not intergrate into western society very well. Their unemployment rate is very high, they seem content to live on benefits, including child support for their large and growing families. They are involved in violent crime such as car jackings, assaults and rape, disproportionately to the rest of the community. Youth gangs are common. There is a growing feeling of resentment to these people from many in the community. (Perhaps some of Scea's mates! (Incidently, always be aware of the wowser with the notebook who stays sober when everyone else is pissed and ranting! ))

These problems have not manifested themselves to the same degree with immigrants from other African countries who arrived earlier.

I cannot reconcile the thoughts someone expressed that asians are treated seperately in Australia! They comprise around 10% of the population (approaching 20% in Sydney) and have intergrated into all areas of Australian life. While some do stay in enclaves ( I'm sure there are chinatowns all over the world, possibily even in America!), I and I'm sure most people here, don't even notice if someone at work, on the bus, in the shops, etc, is asian. In my last job before pulling the pin I was the only white, anglosaxon person in the area in which I worked.

There are always going to be racist rednecks in any country, Australia, even though it is one of the most multicultural societies on earth, is no different.

Interesting replies.

Ulysses G as usual says what we least want to hear but once again it's difficult to deny what he says.

Aussies are racist in thought but maybe not so much in practice. Ignorance is a major problem. I remember driving past a huge immigrant hostel camp in the 80s with a 16 year old co-worker who contemptuously said "Gee, they've filled that place up with f***ing Viet Cong.

I tried to explain that the people were there because they weren't Viet Cong but he just looked at me blankly.

The Asians seemed to have settled in well, it soon became apparent that they had the values we like to ascribe to ourselves; work, home, family, money... but the Muslims and black Africans worry us.

I'm convinced the media have an agenda, if there's such a thing as a "liberal" media we don't have it here. Right is right.

Ian, we've absorbed millions of immigrants from the cauldron of WW2. Many of these people, who look exactly like us, brought their ethnic hatreds and it carries on today. Do a news search for Croat youths being evicted from the Australian tennis Open this week. These idiots are third generation Australians.

LRB... (the poster, not the band), I'd like you to expand on what you consider to be the birthright of the white male. I seem to have missed mine if there is one. This is something I hear a lot, "We were here first, we own this country, they have no work ethic, they're living off our taxes, our women aren't safe in the street, our goats aren't safe in the street.... ".

Opposition to change? Is there such a thing as a true conservative? Everything changes, try looking in the mirror.

Harcourt, if you had been in our class at school we'd have gone out of our way to make you feel accepted. Mind you, we threw stones at the German, Italian and Greek kids though... (Not the Dutch, boy could they fight).

I missed mine too, but I think you know what I'm talking about. In all our western countries we formed a greater percentage of the workforce and naturally available positions would go to us if we were suitably qualified. As more women, minorities, and immigrants entered the workforce it is a mathematical certainty that the position of the dominant members of the labor pool would be whittled away. Further, and this is what I consider one of the greatest gifts of growing up in America during my era, most advancement in academia or the workforce was through objective evaluation criteria. Somewhere it was described what you needed to do to get what you wanted. You did it and advanced. I think subjective criteria has gained in importance now, either to redress past injustices (which I acknowledge could be real), or for social engineering or because it panders to various voting blocs of democratic nations.

Speaking for myself, nothing I accomplished in my life, whether academically or career wise could not have been done by a minority or a female. It WOULD have been more difficult for them however. Not because of any codified impediments but because the specific culture of the profession allowed for marginalising them. Mostly an all boys club. That said the best Master I ever sailed under was a woman, one of less than 5 in the country. She was just better at everything.

I'm in no position to speak for Sceagudenga, but I interpeted his post as actually wondering what you meant by "lost birthright". I'm a little unsure (too?).

I think it may be worthy of an entire thread

I thought I was clear, but if I wasn't, it means that it is no longer a given that position of leadership in academia, business, government, military, will fall to white men. Maybe you don't get it because its so obvious and and has been going on quite awhile now.

I've tried not to adress the ""Aussies are misogynist" comment because it's not really releavant to my topic, but here we go.

The average Australian male worships and fears the female of the species. This can go wrong if the one of our desires shows less than perfect traits but true hatred is less common than you would think.

I think true hatred of women is rare anywhere. I think of it more as an acting out of feelings of inadequacy. Mine is not a scientific survey b any means but % wise my sense is that is not uncommon Down Under. I'm not trying to needle anybody here, that's just my sense of things. My sense also is that this exists because Australia is much closer to it's frontier roots than most other western nations and the "domestication" of the populace may have begun later. I hope that doesn't sound negative, as that isn't my intent here at all.

NZ's colonial past has many connections with Oz's, with the noted exception that NZ colonials had an actual war with the indigenese...not just conflicts. I suggest that the "domestication" of these frontier nations advanced very quickly, as I noted in a previous post: NZ was the first country in the western world, (perhaps the world?) to give women the vote.

I'm not promoting NZ...with Oz and NZ being so close, culturally, it is not likely that chauvanism ( a better term than misogynist in this topic?), has thrived in Oz for a long time.

I've tried not to adress the ""Aussies are misogynist" comment because it's not really releavant to my topic, but here we go.

The average Australian male worships and fears the female of the species. This can go wrong if the one of our desires shows less than perfect traits but true hatred is less common than you would think.

I think true hatred of women is rare anywhere. I think of it more as an acting out of feelings of inadequacy. Mine is not a scientific survey b any means but % wise my sense is that is not uncommon Down Under. I'm not trying to needle anybody here, that's just my sense of things. My sense also is that this exists because Australia is much closer to it's frontier roots than most other western nations and the "domestication" of the populace may have begun later. I hope that doesn't sound negative, as that isn't my intent here at all.

NZ's colonial past has many connections with Oz's, with the noted exception that NZ colonials had an actual war with the indigenese...not just conflicts. I suggest that the "domestication" of these frontier nations advanced very quickly, as I noted in a previous post: NZ was the first country in the western world, (perhaps the world?) to give women the vote.

I'm not promoting NZ...with Oz and NZ being so close, culturally, it is not likely that chauvanism ( a better term than misogynist in this topic?), has thrived in Oz for a long time.

Yes, that's probably a better word and I apologize for introducing off topic elements here. This is not a topic about women, but immigrants.

Interesting replies.

Ulysses G as usual says what we least want to hear but once again it's difficult to deny what he says.

Aussies are racist in thought but maybe not so much in practice. Ignorance is a major problem. I remember driving past a huge immigrant hostel camp in the 80s with a 16 year old co-worker who contemptuously said "Gee, they've filled that place up with f***ing Viet Cong.

I tried to explain that the people were there because they weren't Viet Cong but he just looked at me blankly.

The Asians seemed to have settled in well, it soon became apparent that they had the values we like to ascribe to ourselves; work, home, family, money... but the Muslims and black Africans worry us.

I'm convinced the media have an agenda, if there's such a thing as a "liberal" media we don't have it here. Right is right.

Ian, we've absorbed millions of immigrants from the cauldron of WW2. Many of these people, who look exactly like us, brought their ethnic hatreds and it carries on today. Do a news search for Croat youths being evicted from the Australian tennis Open this week. These idiots are third generation Australians.

LRB... (the poster, not the band), I'd like you to expand on what you consider to be the birthright of the white male. I seem to have missed mine if there is one. This is something I hear a lot, "We were here first, we own this country, they have no work ethic, they're living off our taxes, our women aren't safe in the street, our goats aren't safe in the street.... ".

Opposition to change? Is there such a thing as a true conservative? Everything changes, try looking in the mirror.

Harcourt, if you had been in our class at school we'd have gone out of our way to make you feel accepted. Mind you, we threw stones at the German, Italian and Greek kids though... (Not the Dutch, boy could they fight).

I missed mine too, but I think you know what I'm talking about. In all our western countries we formed a greater percentage of the workforce and naturally available positions would go to us if we were suitably qualified. As more women, minorities, and immigrants entered the workforce it is a mathematical certainty that the position of the dominant members of the labor pool would be whittled away. Further, and this is what I consider one of the greatest gifts of growing up in America during my era, most advancement in academia or the workforce was through objective evaluation criteria. Somewhere it was described what you needed to do to get what you wanted. You did it and advanced. I think subjective criteria has gained in importance now, either to redress past injustices (which I acknowledge could be real), or for social engineering or because it panders to various voting blocs of democratic nations.

Speaking for myself, nothing I accomplished in my life, whether academically or career wise could not have been done by a minority or a female. It WOULD have been more difficult for them however. Not because of any codified impediments but because the specific culture of the profession allowed for marginalising them. Mostly an all boys club. That said the best Master I ever sailed under was a woman, one of less than 5 in the country. She was just better at everything.

I'm in no position to speak for Sceagudenga, but I interpeted his post as actually wondering what you meant by "lost birthright". I'm a little unsure (too?).

I think it may be worthy of an entire thread

I thought I was clear, but if I wasn't, it means that it is no longer a given that position of leadership in academia, business, government, military, will fall to white men. Maybe you don't get it because its so obvious and and has been going on quite awhile now.

You may be right that I have become inured. I did not think of it as a birthright.

I think that it's better we give away some of this birthright willingly than be eventually robbed of it.

There's a lot of anger among the children of immigrants, they want to be Australians but still feel they are treated as outsiders because they retain some of the culture of their ethnic group.

However, we digress. I seek to discuss the new wave of immigrants and people's reaction to them. Will they assimilate or will Australians have to change?

The US retains it's strong national identity despite heavy immigration quotas, Europe seems to be struggling to cope. Does European liberalism appear as a sign of weakness to people who have lived all their life in war zones where as more conservative Americans are treated with caution?

Remember the Blake poem?

Bring me my Bow of burning gold;

Bring me my Arrows of desire:

Bring me my Spear: O clouds unfold:

Bring me my Chariot of fire!

I will not cease from Mental Fight,

Nor shall my Sword sleep in my hand:

Till we have built Jerusalem,

In Englands green & pleasant Land.

Are the newcomers building their Jerusalem?

I think that it's better we give away some of this birthright willingly than be eventually robbed of it.

There's a lot of anger among the children of immigrants, they want to be Australians but still feel they are treated as outsiders because they retain some of the culture of their ethnic group.

However, we digress. I seek to discuss the new wave of immigrants and people's reaction to them. Will they assimilate or will Australians have to change?

The US retains it's strong national identity despite heavy immigration quotas, Europe seems to be struggling to cope. Does European liberalism appear as a sign of weakness to people who have lived all their life in war zones where as more conservative Americans are treated with caution?

I don't think it's true anymore that the US has "heavy immigration quotas". There are 40 million foreign-born Americans and less than 25% come from Mexico. In Australia, how easy is it for immigrants to feel like they are becoming "Australian"? Immigrants to France can never really become "French". French citizens, yes. But French, no. The same goes for most countries where the ethnicity is the same as nationality (try becoming Thai). There is no ethnic group called "American", it's a nationality. That makes it easier for immigrants to assimilate. Australian is the same way but maybe they are too closely associated with the English? I dunno, just asking. The world knows that Americans come in all colors and ethnicity. One look at our Olympic team will show that - or even our President. When I think of the Aussie Olympic team, I think of white, blond-haired athletes. Are there many famous Australians that aren't of European descent? Famous outside of Australia?

What? So there really aren't any famous non-Euro Aussies? And to think I was expecting a long list.

I imagine you would claim "not famous" for any person stated because your worldview means that if not famous in America, then not famous at all.

Maybe even "not famous" if you personally had not heard of them, you being so knowledgable in world matters.

Besides.....what does the number of non-white "celebrities" have to do with it?

I imagine you would claim "not famous" for any person stated because your worldview means that if not famous in America, then not famous at all.

Maybe even "not famous" if you personally had not heard of them, you being so knowledgable in world matters.

Besides.....what does the number of non-white "celebrities" have to do with it?

So there are only locally famous ones. Fair enough.

It has a lot to do with the perception of the country. Immigrants that come from non-European countries may not feel they can become "Australian" if the general view is that Australians are white and they are not. I'm not taking shots at Australia, I'm trying to figure out why immigrants have a hard time assimilating like it was mentioned here.

I can think of at least two non-white Australians that were famous.

1. Yvonne Goolgong (tennis)

2, Catherine Freeman (Olympics Track and Field)

They were not immigrants but were Aborigines. I'm sure there were others.

Crocodile Dundee was white.

I imagine you would claim "not famous" for any person stated because your worldview means that if not famous in America, then not famous at all.

Maybe even "not famous" if you personally had not heard of them, you being so knowledgable in world matters.

Besides.....what does the number of non-white "celebrities" have to do with it?

So there are only locally famous ones. Fair enough.

It has a lot to do with the perception of the country. Immigrants that come from non-European countries may not feel they can become "Australian" if the general view is that Australians are white and they are not. I'm not taking shots at Australia, I'm trying to figure out why immigrants have a hard time assimilating like it was mentioned here.

See what I mean....if someone is not famous in America, they are only "localy famous"....famous in the rest of the world perhaps, but still only "locally".

I imagine you would claim "not famous" for any person stated because your worldview means that if not famous in America, then not famous at all.

Maybe even "not famous" if you personally had not heard of them, you being so knowledgable in world matters.

Besides.....what does the number of non-white "celebrities" have to do with it?

So there are only locally famous ones. Fair enough.

It has a lot to do with the perception of the country. Immigrants that come from non-European countries may not feel they can become "Australian" if the general view is that Australians are white and they are not. I'm not taking shots at Australia, I'm trying to figure out why immigrants have a hard time assimilating like it was mentioned here.

See what I mean....if someone is not famous in America, they are only "localy famous"....famous in the rest of the world perhaps, but still only "locally".

can you name a few examples please.

I imagine you would claim "not famous" for any person stated because your worldview means that if not famous in America, then not famous at all.

Maybe even "not famous" if you personally had not heard of them, you being so knowledgable in world matters.

Besides.....what does the number of non-white "celebrities" have to do with it?

So there are only locally famous ones. Fair enough.

It has a lot to do with the perception of the country. Immigrants that come from non-European countries may not feel they can become "Australian" if the general view is that Australians are white and they are not. I'm not taking shots at Australia, I'm trying to figure out why immigrants have a hard time assimilating like it was mentioned here.

See what I mean....if someone is not famous in America, they are only "localy famous"....famous in the rest of the world perhaps, but still only "locally".

can you name a few examples please.

Are you asking for a name that is famous to most of the world but not in America?

How would we determine how famous someone is in America vs "the rest of the world"?