Police Crackdown On Foreign Operated Sex Bars

[wallaan]

A very good thing to do ! I agree fully to that crackdown.

[wallaan]

We must remember that what we see is only the tip of the iceberg. Way more Thai owned places than farang...only they aren't so visible. I know a Thai ex-cop who owns quite a few bars in and around Nana Plaza. Really nice guy, actually. And didn't the leader of the yellow shirts make his money this way? All the time saying he had no idea what was going on during the massages?

Like was mentioned above, I have seen the payoffs. Been in bars after hours when the cops come in to collect a few baht so the place can stay open. It is such a scam here. They need to do like that Eastern European country did a few years ago...fire every cop and replace them. The PM of that country couldn't figure out any other way to deal with the corruption...

Maybe you're right but as a farang we shouldn't interfear this matter as long as you want to stay overthere !

[manarak]

I understand that in any civilised society there will be prostitution, however it needs regulation and controls placed upon it so it is not fed by human rights abuse.

Very well then - what controls or regulations should there be in a country like Thailand?

[george]

Update:

Thaivisa have this morning received the following email from Drew Noyes for publication:

To all the best websites and bars serving foreigners in Thailand:

Please note in the recent breaking news in the Pattaya Times newspaper and on www.pattaya-times.com (and maybe on your website) that this action detailed in the article "Police Crackdown on Foreign Owned Sex Bars" is scheduled to begin February 16 or before and targets gay bars, beer bars and gogos with bar fines in Pattaya and then possibly in the other cities.

PAPPA Co., Ltd Legal Services Division, which we own in addition to shares of Pattaya Times Media Corp. Co., Ltd. does not want to make money from this crackdown that is WHY we announced it in advance! If we wanted to make money we would have kept this to ourselves without warning the public and waited for the phones to ring when fellow foreigners were in trouble. Our lawyers have kept more than 4,000 foreigners out of trouble in the last 12 years, but we believe prevention is better than the cure.

The reason Drew Noyes is quoted three different ways in prominent positions in the article is to let everyone know how serious this crackdown could be and because we could not quote annonymous police officials who are sensitive to the inequalities foreigners are shown and want to help us.

If foreign investors in bars simply instruct their staff to tell police - if they raid - that the owner and manager are Thai, and if the foreigner is not in the bar drawing attention to himself, then he won't have any trouble.

The reason the article about legalizing prostitution is on the front page of www.pattaya-times.com along with the Police Crackdown on Foreign Owned Sex Bars article is because we beleive after the crackdown either zoning of adult entertainment or legalization of some form of prostitution will follow in the next year or so since many Thai politicians see the merits in either or both as stated in that article.

Thank you,

The Pattaya Times Newspaper Editor

[Crushdepth]

I was in Pattaya on the weekend and the whole of Beach Road is basically one giant redlight. You can't walk more than 50 metres along the beach footpath without getting propositioned by working girls and ladyboys (day or night). We were even propositioned in KFC.

For the authorities to even *pretend* that they are doing anything about it or that it is foreign controlled is offensive. Of all the stupid crackdown announcements, this is the most brazen piece of bullshit I can recall.

[mrdome]

"If everyone will make sure that nothing offensive to Thai culture occurs inside these places and no foreigner is associated managerially or financially by a paper trail with these clubs then this crackdown may not cause many people problems."

It is offensive to Thai culture to do these things out in the open. Hiding it, lying about it, denying it, letting others take a fall for it, running a curtain motel or massage parlor, having a mia noi, etc. ... none of these things are offensive to Thai culture.

This is just a fact and not a remark motivated by negative feelings for the place.

[MekhongKurt]

I've not been to Pattaya in over 3 years, but if anecdotes I've heard from friends who have been there since I last was are even halfway correct regarding foreign criminals, especially Russian mafia types (or seemingly mafia types, anyway), then for the Thai police to crack down is good news. Ditto Interpol opening an office there, I suppose, though I think there's already an Interpol office in Thailand (Bangkok? -- not sure). I was startled to read such a high number -- 2,000 -- of wanted people who aren't Thais but thought to be here. That does indeed merit attention.

Another observer here commented that if Thailand had casinos, it could make buckets of money, which I imagine is true. Look at how well Cambodia and Laos do, to name but two places some Thais go for their gambling fixes. Given there is the government lottery there in Thailand, I've often wondered why the parliament doesn't legalize casinos. The members could get good advice from Cambodia, Laos, Malaysia, Singapore, and Macau, both the governments and casino operators in those places. On the other hand, I guess that strictly speaking, gambling is distinct from the illegal flesh trade (though of course they often come as a package deal!).

[Jingthing]

Update:

Thaivisa have this morning received the following email from Drew Noyes for publication:

To all the best websites and bars serving foreigners in Thailand:

Please note in the recent breaking news in the Pattaya Times newspaper and on www.pattaya-times.com (and maybe on your website) that this action detailed in the article "Police Crackdown on Foreign Owned Sex Bars" is scheduled to begin February 16 or before and targets gay bars, beer bars and gogos with bar fines in Pattaya and then possibly in the other cities.

Can someone please clarify this information. It mentions gay bars, and then beer bars, and gogos. Does that mean the crackdown is only going to be against GAY bars, GAY beer bars, and GAY gogos, or ALL such establishments? If it is only targeted against gay businesses, why? Also, the TIMING of this is very interesting, at the same time of the expected national crisis about the Thaksin money verdict.

This press release was done by a lawyer? Why such imprecise language which suggests some kind of anti-gay scapegoating by the police? If that is happening, why not state it MORE CLEARLY? Especially in these times of conflict here in Thailand, in an environment where the red shirt Thaksin (an ex-policeman) supporters are now associated with anti-gay oppression.

Edited January 25, 2010 by Jingthing

[bellste]

I love the honesty in the title. It is only bars operated by foreigners they are shutting down.

Thai people have always known, that westeners are better at doing business. After all, it was the white man that invented capitalism. They have also always known how to deceive and copy. This is one of the elimination periods, where they stabilise their domestic economy by destabilising the foreign.

Isn't it obvious?

I agree. There is no "crack down" on Thai owned sex-bars it seems. Why? They just want the foreigners to spend their money here, not making any.

[bellste]

I do not believe for one moment that Thailand's Government has the political will to heavily regulate and limit prostitution. It would be a good thing if it did so as Thailand, along with many other countries, is seen as a huge brothel by many tourists.

For those of you who say that the girls exploit the customers and not the other way around, then you obviously do not understand the events that lead to the girls being in the bar in the first place, or developing those fleecing skills many of the girls manage to acquire and use so effectively.

The bar industry in that foreigners are exposed to in Thailand is the end of the road for many girls, not the beginning. Every day peoples human rights are violated in terrible ways in the name of this so called industry.

I'm not a prude, I understand that in any civilised society there will be prostitution, however it needs regulation and controls placed upon it so it is not fed by human rights abuse.

I agree with many that this crackdown is just the latest in a series of never ending crackdowns that never have any lasting effect. Thailand is not renowned for having unified political will at solving the worst of it's problems - which is why it is still classed as a 3rd world country.

Yes you are sitting there on you high horse you, and don't understand very much.

If they want to control prostitution, why don't them legalize it?

Thailand is not a 3rd world country, it's a partly developed country!

Edited January 25, 2010 by bellste

[Crushdepth]

I do not believe for one moment that Thailand's Government has the political will to heavily regulate and limit prostitution.

There's a police station right smack in the middle of Pattaya Beach Road. They aren't ignoring it, they are feeding off it.

[basjke]

PAPPA Co., Ltd Legal Services Division, which we own in addition to shares of Pattaya Times Media Corp. Co., Ltd. does not want to make money from this crackdown that is WHY we announced it in advance! If we wanted to make money we would have kept this to ourselves without warning the public and waited for the phones to ring when fellow foreigners were in trouble. Our lawyers have kept more than 4,000 foreigners out of trouble in the last 12 years, but we believe prevention is better than the cure.

But if the phones didn't rang for some time and you know that they not gonna ring anytime soon than it is of course always handy to give the need to make a call a little push by sending some fear into the market.

Edited January 25, 2010 by basjke

[sharecropper]

Best case - he's done everyone affected a favour.

Worst case - hes done himself a big publicity one.

But I do wonder whether it is wise for someone so connected to broadcast and effectively thwart a crackdown by the Royal Thai Police so publicly if there was serious truth in it - unless it is Pattaya police ratting out an income-damaging crackdown by Bangkok or Chonburi police (or even Banglamung police these days).

[Rimmer]

Post referring to a deleted post deleted.

[Rimmer]

Off topic posts and replies deleted.

[brahmburgers]

As a comparison, Chiang Rai became brothelless a year after T. took office, roughly 9 years ago. It was Supachai or Purachai who Thaksin sicced on the problem, though NGO's had a major role to play. Rumor has it that at least one NGO young man went and visited the houses of ill-repute (all Thai owned, of course), had a hidden camera, then went to Bkk to bring the big city police up to the province - where the local police were too ingrained in the biz to be affective. One mama sang told me that whenever she got a new girl, she was obliged to phone the local chief of police, so he could have first 'crack' at her (sorry for the pun). One or two places have opened up since, but they have a strict rule of no farang, due to the problem mentioned a few sentences ago.

The seediest part of Chiang Mai was pretty much cleaned up at that time also. Currently, I'm hearing that Udan Thani brothels are getting closed down more and more often. That was the pattern in Chiang Rai just before the full closure of all the places.

So, granted Pattaya is the mecca of such naughty places, and the numbers dwarf whatever used to happen in the provinces, - yet even so, a concerted crack-down could possibly be affective. It's like the difference between knocking out a few small bee hives, or attempting to knock out a house-sized hive. The bees are all the same size. Much of the dynamics are the same, whether it's small timers in little shacks, or big shots in 3-story discos.

[craigt3365]

Wow....I spent several months in CM and CR about 6 or 7 years ago. Plenty of places to have fun (and a few in CR were run by farangs). Loads of them in CM (beer bars, etc). I was in CM 2 years ago and the same places were there...but I was with my wife at the time!

[brahmburgers]

Wow....I spent several months in CM and CR about 6 or 7 years ago. Plenty of places to have fun (and a few in CR were run by farangs). Loads of them in CM (beer bars, etc). I was in CM 2 years ago and the same places were there...but I was with my wife at the time!

Beer bars, yes. I was referring to the wham bam, thank you ma'am places.

[craigt3365]

Got ya! I was always more of a beer bar guy...great fun to play pool and drink beer with cutie...at least when I was single!

[oevna]

There are ways to protect yourself now," Managing Director of the Pattaya Times Drew Noyes added.

Hmm, I wonder what those ways are?

And when will they "crack down" on the domestic prostitution problem? Or is that asking too much?

Is there anything wrong with it? If your good at football but bad at maths you'll never be mathmatician so you become a footballer! If your good in bed why not become a prostitute? It's just another physical job with a limited carrier span where you use your body and sporting ability like any sport.

We're all prostitutes and all sell the talents we have in what ever line of work we do so the key factor is regulation to make sure those ladies or men involved in selling thier flesh are regulated so they aren't mistreated or underage. Eve was the first prostitute over 2 thousand years ago and all she got paid was an apple from Adam so wot ain't broken don't fix!

There is quite a bit of difference between a freelance prostitute who chooses to sell herself/himself for money but has the freedom to leave that profession any time she/he pleases, vs. a woman or child forced into sex slavery in a brothel. The former is the common case with the foreign-operated sex bars, and is the target of this "crackdown." The latter exists mainly in the domestic prostitution market. I am not saying that it is exclusive to the domestic market, nor that it comprises the whole domestic market; I am only saying that it isn't the target of this crackdown. In other words, this is a double-standard. This crackdown is targeted at foreigners, not prostitution.

Furthermore, since this is a "crackdown" on people breaking a law, it seems like it would be much better to solve the bigger problem of forced prostitution in brothels first. Unless, of course, one were only trying to make a show of "cracking down" on something, rather than actually trying to solve a problem.

[coalminer]

As a comparison, Chiang Rai became brothelless a year after T. took office, roughly 9 years ago. It was Supachai or Purachai who Thaksin sicced on the problem, though NGO's had a major role to play. Rumor has it that at least one NGO young man went and visited the houses of ill-repute (all Thai owned, of course), had a hidden camera, then went to Bkk to bring the big city police up to the province - where the local police were too ingrained in the biz to be affective. One mama sang told me that whenever she got a new girl, she was obliged to phone the local chief of police, so he could have first 'crack' at her (sorry for the pun). One or two places have opened up since, but they have a strict rule of no farang, due to the problem mentioned a few sentences ago.

The seediest part of Chiang Mai was pretty much cleaned up at that time also. Currently, I'm hearing that Udan Thani brothels are getting closed down more and more often. That was the pattern in Chiang Rai just before the full closure of all the places.

So, granted Pattaya is the mecca of such naughty places, and the numbers dwarf whatever used to happen in the provinces, - yet even so, a concerted crack-down could possibly be affective. It's like the difference between knocking out a few small bee hives, or attempting to knock out a house-sized hive. The bees are all the same size. Much of the dynamics are the same, whether it's small timers in little shacks, or big shots in 3-story discos.

I can't speak for places as Chiang Mai and Chaing Rai, but over here in the Issaan region. brothels are thrieving like never before.

Although, few are owned by foreigners or have foreign investments, unless you see the Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc. (Asian) as "foreigners".

Apart from many "Coyote Bar" which are booming in the area or the massage parlors, no GoGo or beer bars.

But the Karaoke bars, annex restaurants, with their specific Christmas lights all around the establishment, are to many to count.

None of these places are catering specific for foreigners, unless you see the Asian races as foreigners.

But it is no secret that these Karaoke restaurants are selling sex.

In the Thaksin period as you talk about, many public areas such as parks have been cleaned up and the hookers who were looking for customers in these places were almost all cleaned out.

But a bird never lose his feathers, and they simply moved their territory.

The same hookers who were looking for customers in the parks can now be seen outside the 7 Eleven shops, walking at the front of specific hotels, etc.

Before it was easy to avoid these hookers if you were not interested in their business, but now it is almost impossible to walk anywhere without being asked for a "pam pam" or a "smoke".

Just my 2 cents .....

[MrWiggle]

Hilarious....and at the same time a well known bar with one in Bkk and pattaya comes up for sale at 110,000,000....yes thats a lot of zeros for leased property....innit.......hilarious

[moo9]

There are ways to protect yourself now," Managing Director of the Pattaya Times Drew Noyes added.

Hmm, I wonder what those ways are?

And when will they "crack down" on the domestic prostitution problem? Or is that asking too much?

Is there anything wrong with it? If your good at football but bad at maths you'll never be mathmatician so you become a footballer! If your good in bed why not become a prostitute? It's just another physical job with a limited carrier span where you use your body and sporting ability like any sport.

We're all prostitutes and all sell the talents we have in what ever line of work we do so the key factor is regulation to make sure those ladies or men involved in selling thier flesh are regulated so they aren't mistreated or underage. Eve was the first prostitute over 2 thousand years ago and all she got paid was an apple from Adam so wot ain't broken don't fix!

There is quite a bit of difference between a freelance prostitute who chooses to sell herself/himself for money but has the freedom to leave that profession any time she/he pleases, vs. a woman or child forced into sex slavery in a brothel. The former is the common case with the foreign-operated sex bars, and is the target of this "crackdown." The latter exists mainly in the domestic prostitution market. I am not saying that it is exclusive to the domestic market, nor that it comprises the whole domestic market; I am only saying that it isn't the target of this crackdown. In other words, this is a double-standard. This crackdown is targeted at foreigners, not prostitution.

Very much true your summary!

Although the situation is quite clear, they focus on the target, which can (or not?) provide more money.

[sharecropper]

Hilarious....and at the same time a well known bar with one in Bkk and pattaya comes up for sale at 110,000,000....yes thats a lot of zeros for leased property....innit.......hilarious

If it's Angelwtch it sounds like the Bangkok one is valued at 33,000,000 and Pattaya's, from an ad running on another thread, is in at 77,000,000.

Astonishing numbers. Where do the owners think they are - London or New York with freeholds?

[prism]

I wonder if this is blowback from Stephen Leather's novel "Live Wire".

[raro]

nonsense posts deleted, please bring the topic back on track or we will close it down for good, thanks.

[Lovedog100]

There are ways to protect yourself now," Managing Director of the Pattaya Times Drew Noyes added.

Hmm, I wonder what those ways are?

And when will they "crack down" on the domestic prostitution problem? Or is that asking too much?

Is there anything wrong with it? If your good at football but bad at maths you'll never be mathmatician so you become a footballer! If your good in bed why not become a prostitute? It's just another physical job with a limited carrier span where you use your body and sporting ability like any sport.

We're all prostitutes and all sell the talents we have in what ever line of work we do so the key factor is regulation to make sure those ladies or men involved in selling thier flesh are regulated so they aren't mistreated or underage. Eve was the first prostitute over 2 thousand years ago and all she got paid was an apple from Adam so wot ain't broken don't fix!

There is quite a bit of difference between a freelance prostitute who chooses to sell herself/himself for money but has the freedom to leave that profession any time she/he pleases, vs. a woman or child forced into sex slavery in a brothel. The former is the common case with the foreign-operated sex bars, and is the target of this "crackdown." The latter exists mainly in the domestic prostitution market. I am not saying that it is exclusive to the domestic market, nor that it comprises the whole domestic market; I am only saying that it isn't the target of this crackdown. In other words, this is a double-standard. This crackdown is targeted at foreigners, not prostitution.

Furthermore, since this is a "crackdown" on people breaking a law, it seems like it would be much better to solve the bigger problem of forced prostitution in brothels first. Unless, of course, one were only trying to make a show of "cracking down" on something, rather than actually trying to solve a problem.

Just where do you get your information? I live in Pattaya, know many bar owners, and ex-pats, even way more ladies working Bar. None that I have ever heard of are forced into sex slavery. I don't know of any brothels, just where are they? The typical bar girl in Pattaya works bar about 6 months then leaves Pattaya after earning enough money to live better back home. Or are married / sponsored by farang and no longer have to work bar. I'm wondering, have you ever been to Pattaya? Or even Thailand? I'm trying hard not to flame you for such an ignorant sounding post.

I thought of getting into the business, I looked at every bar for sale, or was even rumored to maybe sale for 8 months. I met a lot of bar owners, both farang, and Thai. I always make a point of meeting the bar owner of any establishment I go in. I can say with out a doubt that the farang bar owners in Pattaya pay the highest salary's, give the biggest incentives, the most days off, work the ladies the least hours. No lady is forced to work. In fact the most dreaded day of the month for a bar owner is payday. That is the day a lady will quit go go back to the village, or quit to go to a higher paying job. Thai's do not give two weeks notice, or one day for that matter. Farang bar owners hate to lose ladies, but are always happy for them, when one ends up marrying or becoming a permanent girlfriend of a customer. I've heard of Thai bar owners demanding money from the man like they are selling cattle. You should try getting your information from some place a little more factual, not someplace with an agenda.

Also, if you are going to quote the Bible, you should try reading it first. Eve gave the apple to Adam, not the other way around.

Edited January 26, 2010 by Lovedog100

[salty]

Where are these awful places? I do not want to be in one of them accidently.

[Ohio]

Another "Crackdown" that really Cracks me up

[oevna]

Just where do you get your information? I live in Pattaya, know many bar owners, and ex-pats, even way more ladies working Bar. None that I have ever heard of are forced into sex slavery. I don't know of any brothels, just where are they? The typical bar girl in Pattaya works bar about 6 months then leaves Pattaya after earning enough money to live better back home. Or are married / sponsored by farang and no longer have to work bar. I'm wondering, have you ever been to Pattaya? Or even Thailand? I'm trying hard not to flame you for such an ignorant sounding post.

I thought of getting into the business, I looked at every bar for sale, or was even rumored to maybe sale for 8 months. I met a lot of bar owners, both farang, and Thai. I always make a point of meeting the bar owner of any establishment I go in. I can say with out a doubt that the farang bar owners in Pattaya pay the highest salary's, give the biggest incentives, the most days off, work the ladies the least hours. No lady is forced to work. In fact the most dreaded day of the month for a bar owner is payday. That is the day a lady will quit go go back to the village, or quit to go to a higher paying job. Thai's do not give two weeks notice, or one day for that matter. Farang bar owners hate to lose ladies, but are always happy for them, when one ends up marrying or becoming a permanent girlfriend of a customer. I've heard of Thai bar owners demanding money from the man like they are selling cattle. You should try getting your information from some place a little more factual, not someplace with an agenda.

Also, if you are going to quote the Bible, you should try reading it first. Eve gave the apple to Adam, not the other way around.

You didn't read a word of what I wrote, did you? Your second sentence (hilighted in bold, for your convenience) really says it all. And just where did I quote the Bible? The reference to Adam and Eve was in the quoted text from another person (i.e. not what I wrote, but what another person wrote).

If you think that prostitution in Thailand is limited to just what you see in the tourist-oriented areas of Pattaya, then you have a lot to learn. I'll give you a clue here, since you seem to need one. If you can't be bothered to read the whole article, then I suggest you start with chapter 3 on page 17. Note that this is not the same thing as the expat bars and bargirls that you are so familiar with.