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Aid Ship Stormed

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We have more than enough pictures from your side of the oppressed peoples. I was just presenting another side that seems to be for the diplomats, news media, politicians, NGOs and a few others. I knew people like you would only attack it.

When are you going to answer my questions from the last two pages or so? Interesting that you have time to criticize opposing views but never have time to offer anything constructive.

If I see a valid question I answer it... If I see a uncomprehending problem I tend to hope you will sort it yourself... & not need a obvious hand...

Go back & read the post again & who I was replying to when you butted in. Then you may have your answer as everyone else but you did.

As for your sides pics??? as I said a correspondent for Israel versus the UN new agency...

Yup we see what is valid & un-biased there dont we :) Sorry next :D

It is nice to see someone with so much trust in the UN.

Obviously you slept through Oil for Food, UN IPCC. various African peace keeping efforts.

Your source is hardly more reliable than mine is. The difference is, I know mine is biased.

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the taking out of three people that threatened israels security.

james miller.

tom hurndall.

and rachel corrie.

she was murder by an idf soldier driving a bulldozer. after trying to engage in talks with him. he refused and proceeded to run her over, he then backed up and ran her over again.

i could not embed the last clip, but its there on youtube for all to see.

14 year old Palestinian bomber:

Two Palestinian suicide bombers attack civilians in shopping mall:

Hamas taking credit for blowing up bus of civilians: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3165279.stm

Florida child killed by Iran sponsored suicide bombers; http://www.theisraelproject.org/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=hsJPK0PIJpH&b=689705&ct=2502827

The attack on USS Liberty was brushed under the carpet. Why?

Perhaps the same reason that no one cares any more that Nelson Mandela was a terrorist. The passing of a lot of time.

The attack on USS Liberty was brushed under the carpet. Why?

Perhaps the same reason that no one cares any more that Nelson Mandela was a terrorist. The passing of a lot of time.

so is that an admission that there was a cover up on the USS Liberty incident, and that the IDF came up with a contridicting story to what actually happened?

How should I know? Maybe the CIA really did blow up Disneyland and cover it all up. Maybe another nutty conspiracy theory. :)

How should I know? Maybe the CIA really did blow up Disneyland and cover it all up. Maybe another nutty conspiracy theory. :)

oh i think you know dam well why.

the same reason everything else gets covered up. after all you claim to have done so much reading on the subject.

who really pulls all the strings back in the good ole U. S. of A.wink.gif

Terrorism is a more random mass killing of innocent people in order to influence a country's behavior/policies

i would agree, rolleyes.gif

I'm wondering what your thoughts are on the USS Liberty incident?

You have to go back 43 years to find an example? Um, OK.

so does it make it all OK?

It makes it irrelevant.

It doesn't make it all ok, but more to the point, it emphasises how Israel blocks sensitive and embarrassing information. The truth about the IDF's murder on the high seas last week may take 40 years or more to come out.

Why did they confiscate all video footage that they could find? Something to hide perhaps?

With the possible intel bonanza on those cameras (and phones w/ cameras) I would expect nothing less.

The attack on the USS Cole was grounds for HUGE resentment. The attack on USS Liberty was brushed under the carpet. Why?

Jewish influence perhaps?

Nobody was made to pay for the USS Pueblo or USS Stark either. Those dam_n Zionists are everywhere! :)

and rachel corrie.

she was murder by an idf soldier driving a bulldozer. after trying to engage in talks with him. he refused and proceeded to run her over, he then backed up and ran her over again.

They certianly are thorough. Most people would think once is enough.

^Actually, thats a very narrow minded thing to say UG. I have enjoyed reading this thread, it has opened my eyes (thanks to the various links) and made me think a little bit more about what may be presented in main stream media verses what actually might be happening.

I understand what UG is saying, yes G, its not a good idea to lay in front of a bulldozer but I dont buy the story that she wasnt seen by its driver, it was straight out murder and dispicable act.

I feel there is most likely plenty of blame that can be leveled at both sides, but there seems to be a spiral of violence that seems endless and quite possibly the only way to end that conflict is to completely seperate the sides, which in short, can't be done. I'm afraid and history has shown how deep these divides run and no amount of talking is going to change any of it.

Sadly now generations of Palestinians & Israelies have been exposed to this ongoing saga and my bet is it will never end, it may seem like a pessimistic view but with both sides continuing in the same way, theres simply no chance.

I understand what UG is saying, yes G, its not a good idea to lay in front of a bulldozer but I dont buy the story that she wasnt seen by its driver...

I have no idea if it was done on purpose, but there are consequences to our actions and if you start conflict and place yourself in danger purposely, you just might bear some responsibility for what happens. 

There is a controversy right now about a young Mexican smuggler who threw rocks at an American border guard and was shot for it. The thing is that some border guards have been hurt very badly by rock throwing illegal aliens and so they are allowed to use their guns. Such people are criminals and it is sad when they get hurt, but they place themselves in harms way.

I understand what UG is saying, yes G, its not a good idea to lay in front of a bulldozer but I dont buy the story that she wasnt seen by its driver...

I have no idea if it was done on purpose, but there are consequences to our actions and if you start conflict and place yourself in danger purposely, you just might bear some responsibility for what happens.

There is a controversy right now about a young Mexican smuggler who threw rocks at an American border guard and was shot for it. The thing is that some border guards have been hurt very badly by rock throwing illegal aliens and so they are allowed to use their guns. Such people are criminals and it is sad when they get hurt, but they place themselves in harms way.

That is true, George. We have to take responsibility for everything we do from the moment we wake up in the morning. If I intentionally piss off the wrong person on the wrong day then I started the chain of events that may or may not happen. Putting yourself in harms way for some cause can get you hurt. I can see both sides to just about every conflict.

Just reading all the polarized debates on this forum between supposedly rational people has opened my eyes that you can't walk around with rose coloured glasses and expect anything different.

I agree with Neverdie that the conflicts in the Middle East are never going to end. I've seen the same polarized thinking by my own siblings who were raised in the same home by reasonably rational parents. So how could I expect people with vastly different beliefs to be any different?

I understand what UG is saying, yes G, its not a good idea to lay in front of a bulldozer but I dont buy the story that she wasnt seen by its driver...

I have no idea if it was done on purpose, but there are consequences to our actions and if you start conflict and place yourself in danger purposely, you just might bear some responsibility for what happens.

There is a controversy right now about a young Mexican smuggler who threw rocks at an American border guard and was shot for it. The thing is that some border guards have been hurt very badly by rock throwing illegal aliens and so they are allowed to use their guns. Such people are criminals and it is sad when they get hurt, but they place themselves in harms way.

quite honestly i find your your comment above " i always try to avoid laying in front of a moving bulldozer" and koheestis "they certainly are thorough. most people would think once is enough" SICK!

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Pretty astounding video tigerfish....

Hard to believe this is allowed in 2010

Also hard to believe the operators of the bulldozers always cry that those getting bulldozed have claimed they want to see the aggressors pushed into the sea.

Yet videos like this show who actually does the pushing....again & again ad nauseam

If CAT can donate these modified bulldozers....I wish Barrett would donate some anti cat tools for the folks getting dozed.This whole atrocity needs some evening up.

If CAT can donate these modified bulldozers....I wish Barrett would donate some anti cat tools for the folks getting dozed.This whole atrocity needs some evening up.

What do you mean by "evening up"?

I feel there is most likely plenty of blame that can be leveled at both sides, but there seems to be a spiral of violence that seems endless and quite possibly the only way to end that conflict is to completely seperate the sides, which in short, can't be done. I'm afraid and history has shown how deep these divides run and no amount of talking is going to change any of it.

They said the same about Northern Ireland but people got tired of killing each other and sat down to talk.

Watching the Arab/Israeli conflict is no different to Northern Ireland. They all used to stick their fingers in their ears and sing la la la. It was always the other side's fault.

quite honestly i find your your comment above ...SICK!

Thai is exactly how we feel about hateful anti-Israeli lies and support for mass-murdering terrorists. Who are you to point fingers?. :)

I understand what UG is saying, yes G, its not a good idea to lay in front of a bulldozer but I dont buy the story that she wasnt seen by its driver...

I have no idea if it was done on purpose, but there are consequences to our actions and if you start conflict and place yourself in danger purposely, you just might bear some responsibility for what happens.

There is a controversy right now about a young Mexican smuggler who threw rocks at an American border guard and was shot for it. The thing is that some border guards have been hurt very badly by rock throwing illegal aliens and so they are allowed to use their guns. Such people are criminals and it is sad when they get hurt, but they place themselves in harms way.

G,

I have operated at demonstrations/protests where bulldozers and protesting civilians have come together in this fashion. This obviously occurred in my home country. Of course in a civilised community the issues were resolved rationally, although it took great effort on many levels.

Of course, theres nothing civilised about using bulldozers to level occupied homes nor drive them at individuals that place themselves in the path of the equipment. Make no mistake about it, any such act is 'criminal' irregardless of the other mitigating circumstances.

Finally the deceased probably would of been much better protesting in her home country where there are laws in place to protect her. Change isnt going to come from people laying in front of bulldozers but more likely if the correct information is brought to the attention of the worldwide population. In this day and age this process is becoming alot easier thanks to the world wide web. Clearly something is very wrong when these amazing governments of the world can make decisions to invade and destroy countries under the guise of terrorism when in actual fact they are searhing for oil security, yet meanwhile little contructive work is done to tackle the real issues.

At the end of the day, as I said before, these two groups will NEVER rectify their differences, the hate is too far engrained. Its a great idea to build a massive wall to seperate the parties (keeping in mind, neither side is willing to give up territory) YET some controls need to be monitored in order to stop weapons being used by either side AND that the palestinians are able to 'freely' receive trade & supplies at their borders. I understand the desire to control weapons BUT this needs to be controlled on both sides of the big wall.

The problem with any of this is, no matter what method is put into place to try and 'calm' the situation, there will always be someone to stand up and object to it. Its a NO WIN - NO WIN SITUATION.

I feel there is most likely plenty of blame that can be leveled at both sides, but there seems to be a spiral of violence that seems endless and quite possibly the only way to end that conflict is to completely seperate the sides, which in short, can't be done. I'm afraid and history has shown how deep these divides run and no amount of talking is going to change any of it.

They said the same about Northern Ireland but people got tired of killing each other and sat down to talk.

Watching the Arab/Israeli conflict is no different to Northern Ireland. They all used to stick their fingers in their ears and sing la la la. It was always the other side's fault.

That is very true endure, however, its quite possible that the conflict in the middle east goes much deeper than many of us on the outside have any idea of.

In relation to the Aid ship being boarded bny Israel, the people aboard that ship SHOULD HAVE been prepared to allow for that vessel to be inspected for weaponry. SIMPLE AS THAT.

I feel there is most likely plenty of blame that can be leveled at both sides, but there seems to be a spiral of violence that seems endless and quite possibly the only way to end that conflict is to completely seperate the sides, which in short, can't be done. I'm afraid and history has shown how deep these divides run and no amount of talking is going to change any of it.

They said the same about Northern Ireland but people got tired of killing each other and sat down to talk.

Watching the Arab/Israeli conflict is no different to Northern Ireland. They all used to stick their fingers in their ears and sing la la la. It was always the other side's fault.

That is very true endure, however, its quite possible that the conflict in the middle east goes much deeper than many of us on the outside have any idea of.

In relation to the Aid ship being boarded bny Israel, the people aboard that ship SHOULD HAVE been prepared to allow for that vessel to be inspected for weaponry. SIMPLE AS THAT.

ND:

They were prepared for the boarding. That's what caused nine of them to be killed.

Had they not attacked the Israeli military carrying out their assigned duties in accordance with accepted maritime law, this thread would not even exist.

You must remember, there are eight other ships that are not being discussed here.

This is where we do not agree and why I support Israel. I think that the Israelis are willing to trade land for peace and in fact they have already done so - The Sinai and parts of Jordan. (They also handed over Gaza to the Palestinians who used it to fire missiles at them). They are tired of nothing but war.

The Palestinians (the majority) have no interest in peace and there have been plenty of polls that show that the majority support terrorism and killing civilians. They go through the motions of peace talks to buy time to acquire more advanced weapons and to gain sympathy, but all they really want to do (the great majority) is "drive the Jews into the sea", but they keep losing every war.

The Arab countries - and the rest of the world - have already recognized Israel's right to exist, so that is not on the table anymore. It is really up to the Palestinians to bargain in good faith and that has not happened. Israel is willing to forgive and forget, but they need a partner in peace and, so far, there has not been one who was sincere.

ND:

They were prepared for the boarding. That's what caused nine of them to be killed.

Had they not attacked the Israeli military carrying out their assigned duties in accordance with accepted maritime law, this thread would not even exist.

You must remember, there are eight other ships that are not being discussed here.

chuck, Its frustrating for me that you have taken my comment in the opposite meaning for which it was meant. My bad writing. By being prepared I meant, to allow the Israelies to board, check for contraband and so forth, PEACEFULLY.

This isnt rocket science. I agree with everything you have stated above, please don't confuse that.

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