Unless these targets were shooting over their shoulder while riding a motorcycle.....it would appear by the holes in their backs that they were not shooting back. Not to mention no holes in the side windows of the car so they also did not shoot as they passed.

But....yes it is surely harder to be precise when copper jacketed lead is whizzing by...depending on many things as always

Any idea how the back window got knocked out in the process or was it just damage after the shooting?

Mark, the gun that the motosaai driver was carrying was fully loaded but no bullet in the chamber.

Kohee, if you have been in the army you know that you are trained using live ammo to shoot at targets, how else would you be able to hit them? On patrols I was carrying live ammo. Fully loaded with a bullet in the chamber and that is how one guy died when on patrol. His buddy thought it would be safe to pull the trigger having the UZI pointed to the guy's head, he pulled the trigger and shot the guy in his head.

UG, please show any evidence other then the statement of Mr. Davis that he believed they wanted to rob/kill him.

Mark, these motosaai drivers never shot at him.

What is going on know is negotiations between the US and Pakistan how to solve this issue.

Both trying to use their leverage.

The US saying we will stop financial support, and Pakistan saying we will expose the role the US plays in global terrorism.

Place your bets, I say money wins.

Alex

UG, please show any evidence other then the statement of Mr. Davis that he believed they wanted to rob/kill him.

I will, after you show some evidence that they didn't.

Any idea how the back window got knocked out in the process or was it just damage after the shooting?

No but looking at it I would hazard a guess the crowd took it out.

Same reason the 4x4 ran off...from reports if the cops were not near it would have been a real life blackhawk down situation

The whole rear window does not go out from a shot...same as the windshield did not go out from 9 shots

Kohee, if you have been in the army you know that you are trained using live ammo to shoot at targets, how else would you be able to hit them? On patrols I was carrying live ammo. Fully loaded with a bullet in the chamber and that is how one guy died when on patrol. His buddy thought it would be safe to pull the trigger having the UZI pointed to the guy's head, he pulled the trigger and shot the guy in his head.

Doesn't sound like you guys were very well trained after all.

Any idea how the back window got knocked out in the process or was it just damage after the shooting?

No but looking at it I would hazard a guess the crowd took it out.

Same reason the 4x4 ran off...from reports if the cops were not near it would have been a real life blackhawk down situation

The whole rear window does not go out from a shot...same as the windshield did not go out from 9 shots

You mean Falleujah situation?

UG, please show any evidence other then the statement of Mr. Davis that he believed they wanted to rob/kill him.

I will, after you show some evidence that they didn't.

There where no fired bullets found inside him or his vehicle, is that enough evidence?

Imagine a court hearing.

Prosecutor: Mr. Davis you shot those two people to death because you believed they were about to rob you. What happened that made you believe this, and plead self defense?

For and on the record your honor, I present exhibit A, a gun carried by the MS driver, loaded but not fired.

Mr. Davis: Well your honor, I peeked at them and saw one person carrying a gun. As those ragheads were close to me for a while, I decided to shoot at them once they passed me. Sort of how we illegally invade countries because we think they might have WMD's or interfere with our global security interests.

Kohee, if you have been in the army you know that you are trained using live ammo to shoot at targets, how else would you be able to hit them? On patrols I was carrying live ammo. Fully loaded with a bullet in the chamber and that is how one guy died when on patrol. His buddy thought it would be safe to pull the trigger having the UZI pointed to the guy's head, he pulled the trigger and shot the guy in his head.

Doesn't sound like you guys were very well trained after all.

Yes just like some US soldiers raping and killing a child and their family, just for the kicks.

Get real Kohee.

UG, please show any evidence other then the statement of Mr. Davis that he believed they wanted to rob/kill him.

I will, after you show some evidence that they didn't.

There where no fired bullets found inside him or his vehicle, is that enough evidence?

No not even close. He saw them approaching his car. He saw their guns threatening him and shot them first.

Any idea how the back window got knocked out in the process or was it just damage after the shooting?

No but looking at it I would hazard a guess the crowd took it out.

Same reason the 4x4 ran off...from reports if the cops were not near it would have been a real life blackhawk down situation

The whole rear window does not go out from a shot...same as the windshield did not go out from 9 shots

You mean Falleujah situation?

1993 Battle of Mogadishu

Kohee, if you have been in the army you know that you are trained using live ammo to shoot at targets, how else would you be able to hit them? On patrols I was carrying live ammo. Fully loaded with a bullet in the chamber and that is how one guy died when on patrol. His buddy thought it would be safe to pull the trigger having the UZI pointed to the guy's head, he pulled the trigger and shot the guy in his head.

Doesn't sound like you guys were very well trained after all.

Are you saying Alex was in the US military?

How about this analogy.......

An armed Pakistani driving down Pennsylvania avenue in Washington in a non diplomat plated car shoots in the back & kills 2 Americans & another car with Pakistanis tries to come to his aid killing a 3rd American then flees.

The Pakistani arrested later claims diplomatic immunity yet has not proof of entering the US on such a passport..........What would be his fate?

.

If it was thought that he was a spy, his fate would be rendition. He would be taken to another country and tortured on the US's behalf.

I don't want to ruin a fun discussion, but he would be expelled from the country. Probably a few other Embassy personnel might as well--if they thought he was spying.

Some years back, a person with diplomatic immunity was involved in a car accident (drunk?) and killed one or two people. He was initially arrested and there were calls for him to stand trial. The State Department stepped in and explained that holding him endangered all US citizens with diplomatic immunity. I think the case was in Virginia.

I know that the country involved was considering revoking his diplomatic immunity, but that was up to his home country. I don't know

the ultimate outcome, but it was clear that diplomatic immunity trumped over the state law.

A scenario that is perhaps more ominous and one that would truly test diplomatic immunity is one in which an embassy personnel was involved directly in a terrorist attack.

I know that the country involved was considering revoking his diplomatic immunity, but that was up to his home country. I don't know

the ultimate outcome, but it was clear that diplomatic immunity trumped over the state law.

A scenario that is perhaps more ominous and one that would truly test diplomatic immunity is one in which an embassy personnel was involved directly in a terrorist attack.

That is as you say a possibility but, since you do not remember the outcome...cant say.

But...........

THIS is the law the US follows

The US State Department says regarding the immunity claims of diplomatic and consular officials of foreign governments in the US:

International law, to which the United State is firmly committed, requires that law enforcement authorities of the United States extend certain privileges and immunities to members of Foreign diplomatic missions and consular posts. Most of the privileges and immunities are not absolute and law enforcement officers retain their fundamental responsibility to protect and police the orderly conduct of persons in the United States.

Diplomatic immunity is not intended to serve as a license for persons to flout the law and purposely avoid liability for their actions.

Then The Vienna Convention on Consular Relations of 1963. That Obama is touting

That document states, in Article 41:

Consular officers shall not be liable to arrest or detention pending trial, except in the case of a grave crime and pursuant to a decision by the competent judicial authority. Vienna Convention that Obama is touting states ....

Shooting two ISI agents in the back or even two citizens & then claiming self defense? Has to qualify as a grave crime no?

Yes there is reports that the two men....one of which carried legally a side arm were ISI agents...here is one

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/ray-davis-shooting-pakistan/story?id=12869411

So on to your last statement about terrorism.......

If this contractor Davis who identified himself as a consultant in Lahore to the police was "working" & followed by these two ISI agents then he shoots them in the back?? Claiming self defense????

Again compare the situation in reverse.......

An armed Pakistani driving down Pennsylvania avenue in Washington in a non diplomat plated car shoots in the back & kills 2 Americans CIA/FBI agents & another car with Pakistanis tries to come to his aid killing a 3rd American then flees.

The Pakistani arrested later claims diplomatic immunity yet has not proof of entering the US on such a passport. He claims self defense although he killed the two with shots to their backs..........What would be his fate?

The questions are theoretical. The situation in Pakistan is real.

I don't know exactly what would happen, but I would guess that the person would get deported. There are two different aspects to both of these cases. First, the actions of the police. In both the real case and the theoretical case, the actions of the police are correct. They have arrested someone who is suspected of murder. The decision to take the person to trial is an entirely different decision and not one made by the police (usually).

The claim to diplomatic immunity has to be verified. Entering a country illegally casts a very big question on that claim.

In most countries, diplomats and foreign staff serve under bilateral agreements between the countries. Diplomats do not have to have a Work Permit, for example, in Thailand. They do not have to pay Thai Taxes. The same is true of Thai diplomats in the US.

The Pakistan situation has some very questionable aspects to it and I am guessing that is why there is so much pressure and back room negotiations.

It's important to remember that not everyone working for an Embassy has diplomatic immunity. Lots of people who work under contracts, but they are not diplomats and they do not have immunity.

It's important to remember that not everyone working for an Embassy has diplomatic immunity. Lots of people who work under contracts, but they are not diplomats and they do not have immunity.

That is my understanding as well.

So when he told the police on a video that is being circulated on the web that he was a *consultant* at the Lahore consulate I wondered.

I wondered if a consultant is immune? Surprisingly never once in the video did he mention immunity.

That aside the laws I posted from the US State Department for how they themselves view the immunity law seems clear to me.

So does the excerpt from the Vienna Convention.

So at the end of the day diplomat or not it seems to come down to the self defense claim.

I know in the USA a claim of self defense *after* having used deadly force against someone needs to be satisfied.

If what has been reported of the shots into the backs of the deceased is true.....and all Davis has is a claim that a person legally carrying a gun & possibly an ISI agent at that? pointed it at him..I do not think it would fly in the US courts.

Anymore than someone here shooting an agent or cop then claiming he showed his weapon.

Of course the dead tell no tales so again it is the accused that owns the burden of proof that he used deadly force because he was in jeopardy of losing his life.

That would also apply to Joe blow.......leaving all the diplomat claims aside. If you want to play the diplomat card the State Department laws & the Vienna Convention still need to be satisfied

All just IMO of course

A great deal of the circumstances surrounding immunity in general is subject to interpretation. Most countries don't want their dirty laundry aired in public and will quietly deport the person.

The who situation gets complicated when either gov't agents of the host country or ordinary citizens are involved.

I really haven't followed the pro's and con's of this particular case all that closely, but most diplomats would/should have a security escort made up of locals--usually supplied by the host country's military or police. These are the guys who deal with the local population.

Regardless of which side of the fence your on, this guy was way out there in flaunting the local conditions.

A consultant generally works under an independent contract and therefore would not have immunity. It would depend on who his employer was and the conditions of his employment.

This case gets into the very fine technicalities of immunity and even an entirely independent court from another country could come down on either side of the issue.

A consultant generally works under an independent contract and therefore would not have immunity. It would depend on who his employer was and the conditions of his employment.

This case gets into the very fine technicalities of immunity and even an entirely independent court from another country could come down on either side of the issue.

Those are some very good key points Scott !

Also the idea of a independent court would be very interesting.

Any idea how the back window got knocked out in the process or was it just damage after the shooting?

No but looking at it I would hazard a guess the crowd took it out.

Same reason the 4x4 ran off...from reports if the cops were not near it would have been a real life blackhawk down situation

The whole rear window does not go out from a shot...same as the windshield did not go out from 9 shots

My guess also that the crowd damaged the car after the fact, but I thought it was unusual if they stopped only with the back glass, usually the whole car gets damaged.

My guess also that the crowd damaged the car after the fact, but I thought it was unusual if they stopped only with the back glass, usually the whole car gets damaged.

Agreed but my understanding is the police were on the scene very quickly.

Probably why the 4x4 left & also why Davis didn't get away & was also not damaged by the crowd.

High cap mags only would have lasted so long

From my source I have been informed that Mr. Davis has been experiencing some enhanced non lethal interrogation technique's during the last few days.

The information that came out, made the judge decide to postpone until March or so.

The Pakistan government is using this info as leverage to the US threat to withhold the financial assistance.

The info obtained by the ISI is so damaging that the US will try and do everything to get this guy back to the homeland and settle.

From my source

Michael Moore never could keep a secret.

A page or so back, I cited a situation in the US. I did some research, the diplomat involved was involved in an attempted molestation of a 13 year old girl, but was caught by the police.

He was not charged and was returned to his home country. There was a furor about it.

There have also been some serious accidents with diplomats who were driving drunk. They were also returned to their home country.

I would be interested to know the source of your information, Alex. I am not one of those provide a link or else it's false, kind of people, but it is it published or from some other source.

I wouldn't want to have an enhanced interrogation by the Pakistanis. I think their unenhanced interrogation would suffice for me to confess to anything!

Don'T Try To Rob Your Local Cia Man

don't shoot pakistani secret service agents and then claim you thought they wanted to rob you

Don'T Try To Rob Your Local Cia Man

don't shoot pakistani secret service agents and then claim you thought they wanted to rob you

As it turns out.....Looks like he was in fact CIA & ex-Blackwater....SO this should come as no surprise considering why Blackwater had to change their name to XE Services LLC....Funny huh? LLC... Limited Liability Corporation

Don'T Try To Rob Your Local Cia Man

don't shoot pakistani secret service agents and then claim you thought they wanted to rob you

I'm sure it wouldn't be the first time Pakistani "secret service agents" tried to rob someone. However, probably the first time the victim shot back.

I'm sure it wouldn't be the first time Pakistani "secret service agents" tried to rob someone. However, probably the first time the victim shot back.

That robber story has long since been put to bed.

More like the ISI agents wanted him to pull over & explain why he had been where he was not suppose to be.

He choose to shoot his way out....a poorly thought out option & one that Blackwater employees have a history of making.

Go read some of the reasons why Blackwater had to change its name....you will see Davis fits right in.

Even his buddies behind him in the 4x4 left his a$$

Whether due to fear of being caught themselves or at the sight of seeing their comrade pull such a stunt.....They left him plain & simple

The US & specifically Obama has also made a bad choice in perjuring himself on worldwide TV...He should have also left this Davis to his own demise

Or.........

They could have easily struck a deal like they do & have done since decades gone by.

They could have paid blood $$$ or traded a political prisoner for Davis.

Instead they went with this cockamamie story & tried to then add diplomatic immunity to the mix.

It has shown that the newest puppet on the block has not even one of his own strings to pull.

Now Obama owns it

Don'T Try To Rob Your Local Cia Man

don't shoot pakistani secret service agents and then claim you thought they wanted to rob you

I wonder if the secret service or whoever, were the only people they were working for? Anyway, perhaps they should have spent some of that foreign aid on better training for their agents.

These things are usually settled internally between the two countries. That's not always possible when it involves the public and it is witnessed by a lot of people. Then it becomes a whole different ball game. The horse-trading doesn't work so well when the public wants blood.