To paraphrase a remark attributed to one of the commanders of the US 7th Calvary before the battle of Wounded Knee, when asked if they should kill women and children:

"Knits breed lice."

As many as 300 Native Americans were killed, mostly women and children.

From the OP: "Maybe we should have let Milosovic do what he wanted with Kosovo?"

That is one of the nastier displays of your bigotry and religious/racial intolerance. To suggest that the mass murder and genocide of Muslim civilians, men women and children, should have been condoned is disgraceful.

First, congratulations for using the word genocide in the correct context. It just shows that you can teach an old dog new tricks.

Second,. you go around here clearly insulting other posters on a daily basis and get away with it. To take that sentence to call me a bigot (after calling me cowardly several times in another thread two days ago) should earn you a permanent vacation.

Third, you care zero about the women and children of Afghanistan being brutally murdered - on purpose - by the Taleban so quit playing like you are concerned for them now. Everyone see through your facade.

Back to that sentence that you pretended to take to mean I condone the killing in Kosovo by the Serbs...

This young Kosavoan (sp?) is alive and living in Germany probably because the US and NATO (code word for USA-UK with others in support) made it possible by stopping Milosevic's campaign of genocide. btw - AGAINST the UN;

----

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo#Kosovo_War

Between March 24 and June 10, 1999, NATO intervened by bombing Yugoslavia aimed to force Milošević to withdraw his forces from Kosovo.[76] This military action was not authorised by the Security Council of the United Nations and was therefore contrary to the provisions of the United Nations Charter. Combined with continued skirmishes between Albanian guerrillas and Yugoslav forces the conflict resulted in a further massive displacement of population in Kosovo.[77]

During the conflict, roughly a million ethnic Albanians fled or were forcefully driven from Kosovo. Altogether, more than 11,000 deaths have been reported to Carla Del Ponte by her prosecutors.[78] Some 3,000 people are still missing, of which 2,500 are Albanian, 400 Serbs and 100 Roma.[79] Ultimately by June, Milošević had agreed to a foreign military presence within Kosovo and withdrawal of his troops.

------

Give me one example of an act or deed that is universally "moral" or universally "evil", and I will give you a counter to show that it is not universal.

Walking around chopping up babies in order to eat their brains. In which culture is that acceptable?

Clarification - that was meant to be an evil act for those of youwho are confused by "good" and "evil".

Give me one example of an act or deed that is universally "moral" or universally "evil", and I will give you a counter to show that it is not universal.

Walking around chopping up babies in order to eat their brains. In which culture is that acceptable?

Clarification - that was meant to be an evil act for those of youwho are confused by "good" and "evil".

Perhaps Aztec, Inca, or Mayan. It could come down to taste, not morals.

From the OP: "Maybe we should have let Milosovic do what he wanted with Kosovo?"

That is one of the nastier displays of your bigotry and religious/racial intolerance. To suggest that the mass murder and genocide of Muslim civilians, men women and children, should have been condoned is disgraceful.

First, congratulations for using the word genocide in the correct context. It just shows that you can teach an old dog new tricks.

Second,. you go around here clearly insulting other posters on a daily basis and get away with it. To take that sentence to call me a bigot (after calling me cowardly several times in another thread two days ago) should earn you a permanent vacation.

Third, you care zero about the women and children of Afghanistan being brutally murdered - on purpose - by the Taleban so quit playing like you are concerned for them now. Everyone see through your facade.

Back to that sentence that you pretended to take to mean I condone the killing in Kosovo by the Serbs...

This young Kosavoan (sp?) is alive and living in Germany probably because the US and NATO (code word for USA-UK with others in support) made it possible by stopping Milosevic's campaign of genocide. btw - AGAINST the UN;

----

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo#Kosovo_War

Between March 24 and June 10, 1999, NATO intervened by bombing Yugoslavia aimed to force Milošević to withdraw his forces from Kosovo.[76] This military action was not authorised by the Security Council of the United Nations and was therefore contrary to the provisions of the United Nations Charter. Combined with continued skirmishes between Albanian guerrillas and Yugoslav forces the conflict resulted in a further massive displacement of population in Kosovo.[77]

During the conflict, roughly a million ethnic Albanians fled or were forcefully driven from Kosovo. Altogether, more than 11,000 deaths have been reported to Carla Del Ponte by her prosecutors.[78] Some 3,000 people are still missing, of which 2,500 are Albanian, 400 Serbs and 100 Roma.[79] Ultimately by June, Milošević had agreed to a foreign military presence within Kosovo and withdrawal of his troops.

------

Firstly, I have always used the word in the correct context.

Secondly, your bigotry is on record and is once again displayed by your thoughts on Milosevic. You are a fine one to talk about getting away with insults.....remind us all again why I ASKED if you are a coward (an issue you have still (in a cowardly way?) refrained from addressing).

Thirdly, you seem to be saying that 2 American soldiers lives may have been saved had Milosovic been allowed to continue, and that that would have been worth it....again, I say disgraceful.

Thirdly, you seem to be saying that 2 American soldiers lives may have been saved had Milosovic been allowed to continue, and that that would have been worth it....again, I say disgraceful.

No, I'm not. It's this type of inability to wrap their minds around ideas that have the left wrong on just about every issue.

It is entirely possible the USA saved this guy and his family from death at the hands of the Serbs. If not them, then certainly thousands of his own countrymen, women and children. He shows his gratitude by murdering American soldiers in cold blood. Do I wish that the USA let the genocide (real, not imagined) continue in Kosovo? Of course not. Unlike you I'm sure, I supported US action to go in there and drive Milosevic out (in order to get control of all that Serbian oil, of course). But if I could go back in time, find this guy when he was leaving Kosovo as a refugee and single him out to go back if it would saves the lives of the people he murdered? YES. I have no problem with the killing of people trying to kill my country's soldiers, diplomats, spies, expats or tourists. If they are doing something illegal, then it isn't for this lone gunman in Frankfurt or two in Pakistan to be judge, jury and executioner.

Thirdly, you seem to be saying that 2 American soldiers lives may have been saved had Milosovic been allowed to continue, and that that would have been worth it....again, I say disgraceful.

No, I'm not. It's this type of inability to wrap their minds around ideas that have the left wrong on just about every issue.

It is entirely possible the USA saved this guy and his family from death at the hands of the Serbs. If not them, then certainly thousands of his own countrymen, women and children. He shows his gratitude by murdering American soldiers in cold blood. Do I wish that the USA let the genocide (real, not imagined) continue in Kosovo? Of course not. Unlike you I'm sure, I supported US action to go in there and drive Milosevic out (in order to get control of all that Serbian oil, of course). But if I could go back in time, find this guy when he was leaving Kosovo as a refugee and single him out to go back if it would saves the lives of the people he murdered? YES. I have no problem with the killing of people trying to kill my country's soldiers, diplomats, spies, expats or tourists. If they are doing something illegal, then it isn't for this lone gunman in Frankfurt or two in Pakistan to be judge, jury and executioner.

Koheesti:

I have stopped responding to his troll posts. He hasn't figured that out yet so how smart is the guy to begin with.

I guess he likes to argue with himself. He appears fascinated with the sound of his own voice.

Now I can expect another troll attack on this post, which will also go unanswered, but not necessarily unreported.

If I remember rightly the Munich massacre was carried out by Fatah or Black September, both of which were political (socialist) groups rather than Islamic. They were conducting terror acts against Israel, not for religious reasons, but for political ends.

explaining something to people who wear blinkers is a waste of time Humphrey. and as far as this specific case is conserned did you really think that Chuck or Ulysses had the slightest idea about Black September or al-Fatah? they don't even know the difference between the expressions "islamic" and "islamist". but then... we have to be lenient. they don't speak english, they are american and speak american.

of course they will google now and will arrive at the conclusion "Black September = Islamist Terrorists!" and "Munich = Nazis = conspiracy with islamistic Islamists!"

Naam:

While there are many things I am not aware of, I certainly know what Black September was and who they represented. Your attempts at sarcasm are misdirected.

I am aware you spent a few years in Saudi Arabia and the Middle East. I would have thought you, of all people, would have come to the realization that Muslim terrorists, regardless of their stated reasons for the terrorist acts they perform, justify these actions in their own minds by falling back on their Islamic teachings.

If you honestly believe Black September performed the acts in Munich for the stated reasons, then I have given you entirely too much credit.

I should have realized after your baseless claim there were Russian S-300 missiles in Saudi Arabia that you really don't have a clue. Sadly I didn't make that realization until now.

Keep playing with the words if it makes you feel superior.

Just report him when he starts baiting you. I just did.

Harcourt never seems to learn.

Several derogatory/trolling posts have been deleted. Along with associated replies. Keep it civil guys!!!!!

So what's the difference between one pissed off guy who has Islamist leanings, sympathetic to Afghanistan shooting people on a bus and a several pissed off guys who have Islamist leanings, sympathetic to Afghanistan blowing up a bus in London? Other than the first bus having soldiers on it, I would guess nothing.

Does that make it terror or murder? Is there any rule saying it can't be both? We (some of us) say that almost 3,000 people were murdered on 9/11 and that is was certainly a terrorist attack.

So what's the difference between one pissed off guy who has Islamist leanings, sympathetic to Afghanistan shooting people on a bus and a several pissed off guys who have Islamist leanings, sympathetic to Afghanistan blowing up a bus in London? Other than the first bus having soldiers on it, I would guess nothing.

Does that make it terror or murder? Is there any rule saying it can't be both? We (some of us) say that almost 3,000 people were murdered on 9/11 and that is was certainly a terrorist attack.

Some of us might even call 9/11 an Act of War.

So what's the difference between one pissed off guy who has Islamist leanings, sympathetic to Afghanistan shooting people on a bus and a several pissed off guys who have Islamist leanings, sympathetic to Afghanistan blowing up a bus in London? Other than the first bus having soldiers on it, I would guess nothing.

Does that make it terror or murder? Is there any rule saying it can't be both? We (some of us) say that almost 3,000 people were murdered on 9/11 and that is was certainly a terrorist attack.

chucky has suggested another option which you did not offer: Perhaps the perp saw it as an act of war. His POV.

Perhaps it comes back to the "Invader or liberator?", "rebel or freededom fighter?" debate?

911 was certainly a terrorist attack. But in the way that America has declared war on terrorists (yes, in response after 911).......the bounds of that war are very vague and perhaps the terrorists had actually declared war first (and that could be a whole other discussion over who hit first).

If America takes up arms on the same terms, then it means that America accepts those terms.

If we take number of casuaties into consideration (since the holocaust carries the greatest import based on the number of innocent casualties), then I daresay that America is up there with the biggest perpetrators.

Some of us might even call 9/11 an Act of War.

Some?..... I am guessing all three of you would

Yet the US obviously does not since they have not declared war on any attackers.

Yes they are waging some kind of action here & there with all its collateral damages yet....

The bombing and invasion of Afghanistan is described as a "campaign" against Islamic terrorists, rather than a war.

But as of today there is no proof that Al Qaeda was behind the 9/11 attacks. Nor the ghost Bin Laden

Nor is there evidence that Afghanistan as a Nation State was behind or in any way complicit in the 9/11 attacks.

So <deleted>? If 15 of the 19 hijackers were Saudis is the US Military Industrial Complex not campaigning in the wrong country?

If after all *some* of you consider it an act of war why not write your congressman & ask if our leaders past & present need a GPS?

Some of us might even call 9/11 an Act of War.

Some?..... I am guessing all three of you would

Yet the US obviously does not since they have not declared war on any attackers.

Yes they are waging some kind of action here & there with all its collateral damages yet....

The bombing and invasion of Afghanistan is described as a "campaign" against Islamic terrorists, rather than a war.

But as of today there is no proof that Al Qaeda was behind the 9/11 attacks. Nor the ghost Bin Laden

Nor is there evidence that Afghanistan as a Nation State was behind or in any way complicit in the 9/11 attacks.

So <deleted>? If 15 of the 19 hijackers were Saudis is the US Military Industrial Complex not campaigning in the wrong country?

If after all *some* of you consider it an act of war why not write your congressman & ask if our leaders past & present need a GPS?

Some of us might even call 9/11 an Act of War.

Some?..... I am guessing all three of you would

Yet the US obviously does not since they have not declared war on any attackers.

Yes they are waging some kind of action here & there with all its collateral damages yet....

The bombing and invasion of Afghanistan is described as a "campaign" against Islamic terrorists, rather than a war.

But as of today there is no proof that Al Qaeda was behind the 9/11 attacks. Nor the ghost Bin Laden

Nor is there evidence that Afghanistan as a Nation State was behind or in any way complicit in the 9/11 attacks.

So <deleted>? If 15 of the 19 hijackers were Saudis is the US Military Industrial Complex not campaigning in the wrong country?

If after all *some* of you consider it an act of war why not write your congressman & ask if our leaders past & present need a GPS?

I don't really care, people can call it whatever they want, and I realize you are responding to a specific post. But, I think the 9/11 attack was just the tipping point, following a long line of attacks, Khobar Towers, Embassies in Tanzania and Kenya, S.S. Cole, etc.

Anyway, some say the only solution is to completely pack up, military presence wise, and go back o the U.S. Do you think that would really work?

911 was certainly a terrorist attack. But in the way that America has declared war on terrorists (yes, in response after 911).......the bounds of that war are very vague and perhaps the terrorists had actually declared war first (and that could be a whole other discussion over who hit first).

According to a video tape from May 1998 bin Laden declared war on the USA...

http://articles.cnn.com/2002-08-19/us/terror.tape.main_1_bin-international-islamic-front-osama?_s=PM:US

Previously unseen tape shows bin Laden's declaration of war

August 19, 2002|Nic Robertson CNN

"By God's grace," bin Laden says on the tape, "we have formed with many other Islamic groups and organizations in the Islamic world a front called the International Islamic Front to do jihad against the crusaders and Jews."

"And by God's grace," he says at another point in the tape, "the men ... are going to have a successful result in killing Americans and getting rid of them."

CNN terrorism analyst Peter Bergen, who interviewed bin Laden a year earlier, believes the tape depicts a key moment for al Qaeda.

"They're going public," Bergen said. "They're saying, 'We're having this war against the United States.'"

Maybe he was just another mentally disturbed person that wanted to shoot American soldiers (which he might have believed are partly responsible for the killing of so many innocent humans).

Similar to those US school shootings but at least he thought he had good reasons to do so?

The recent "accident" where a bunch of children were blown up by a drone attack is labeled an accident, I am sure the locals see this as an act of terror.

For many years during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan the CIA have been at the forefront to radicalise people that follow Islamic teachings. The ISI amongst one have warned they were creating a monster and a monster it became.

The one that is benefitting from all this crap is the military industrial complex with some of their right wing Christians at the top.

A good example of unity between (religous) people was shown in Egypt just recently where Muslims protected Christians and vica versa. These people (at that moment)understood it is actually government and their leaders that create all this division between people.

Red shirts - Yellow shirths

Democrats - Republican

Right wing - Left wing

Good - Evil

Black - White

More then a 100 years of "programming" by the governments and media has had it's intended results as can be seen even here at OTB (Myself included).

So many times in discusions people try to prove the other person is wrong without trying to look at a situation from a different (the opponants) angle.

Propaganda is used to convince you and feel to embarrased to admit you were wrong.

1. If I was an American soldier that was told the mission is to free the country from a dictator and spread democracy, I would likely be pissed off by local people trying to kill me.

2. If I was a local I would welcome the liberators untill they got rid of the (formerly US supported dictator) and leave the rest up to the locals.

My advice: Get out and spend the money to secure the American borders.

Maybe he was just another mentally disturbed person that wanted to shoot American soldiers (which he might have believed are partly responsible for the killing of so many innocent humans).

So he was a "rational" mentally disturbed person with a political agenda. Sounds like a terrorist

Maybe he was just another mentally disturbed person that wanted to shoot American soldiers (which he might have believed are partly responsible for the killing of so many innocent humans).

Similar to those US school shootings but at least he thought he had good reasons to do so?

The recent "accident" where a bunch of children were blown up by a drone attack is labeled an accident, I am sure the locals see this as an act of terror.

For many years during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan the CIA have been at the forefront to radicalise people that follow Islamic teachings. The ISI amongst one have warned they were creating a monster and a monster it became.

The one that is benefitting from all this crap is the military industrial complex with some of their right wing Christians at the top.

A good example of unity between (religous) people was shown in Egypt just recently where Muslims protected Christians and vica versa. These people (at that moment)understood it is actually government and their leaders that create all this division between people.

Red shirts - Yellow shirths

Democrats - Republican

Right wing - Left wing

Good - Evil

Black - White

More then a 100 years of "programming" by the governments and media has had it's intended results as can be seen even here at OTB (Myself included).

So many times in discusions people try to prove the other person is wrong without trying to look at a situation from a different (the opponants) angle.

Propaganda is used to convince you and feel to embarrased to admit you were wrong.

1. If I was an American soldier that was told the mission is to free the country from a dictator and spread democracy, I would likely be pissed off by local people trying to kill me.

2. If I was a local I would welcome the liberators untill they got rid of the (formerly US supported dictator) and leave the rest up to the locals.

My advice: Get out and spend the money to secure the American borders.

For me, anything to do with Afghanistan is a poor argument.

There was no real reason to go in there in strength, just send a small Delta force in to take out OBL. What is going to happen the day after the troops leave (whenever that may be) is that the Taliban will be welcomed back in, Kharzai will be hung by his heels, along with all other collaborators and life will return to it's old tribal vendettas.

911 was certainly a terrorist attack. But in the way that America has declared war on terrorists (yes, in response after 911).......the bounds of that war are very vague and perhaps the terrorists had actually declared war first (and that could be a whole other discussion over who hit first).

According to a video tape from May 1998 bin Laden declared war on the USA...

http://articles.cnn.com/2002-08-19/us/terror.tape.main_1_bin-international-islamic-front-osama?_s=PM:US

Previously unseen tape shows bin Laden's declaration of war

August 19, 2002|Nic Robertson CNN

"By God's grace," bin Laden says on the tape, "we have formed with many other Islamic groups and organizations in the Islamic world a front called the International Islamic Front to do jihad against the crusaders and Jews."

"And by God's grace," he says at another point in the tape, "the men ... are going to have a successful result in killing Americans and getting rid of them."

CNN terrorism analyst Peter Bergen, who interviewed bin Laden a year earlier, believes the tape depicts a key moment for al Qaeda.

"They're going public," Bergen said. "They're saying, 'We're having this war against the United States.'"

"If America takes up arms on the same terms, then it means that America accepts those terms."

Which means they need to accept what they get.

Anyway, some say the only solution is to completely pack up, military presence wise, and go back o the U.S. Do you think that would really work?

Solution to what exactly?

Meanwhile back in the USA the Federal Government is facing shut down....yet again.... Dont they still have 7 months left in their fiscal year?

So.....Once again the debt ceiling is being asked to be raised.

Should We The People allow their charge cards which are smoking to once again receive an increase in limits?

It is not a matter of working it is a fact that our spending is not working period.

If I remember correctly OBL was credited with saying he would bankrupt the USA..... will we prove him right to try & prove a pointless point?

Anyway, some say the only solution is to completely pack up, military presence wise, and go back o the U.S. Do you think that would really work?

Solution to what exactly?

Meanwhile back in the USA the Federal Government is facing shut down....yet again.... Dont they still have 7 months left in their fiscal year?

So.....Once again the debt ceiling is being asked to be raised.

Should We The People allow their charge cards which are smoking to once again receive an increase in limits?

It is not a matter of working it is a fact that our spending is not working period.

If I remember correctly OBL was credited with saying he would bankrupt the USA..... will we prove him right to try & prove a pointless point?

Solution being that the violence would go away if we infidels remove ourselves form their land.

So, far as the fiscal year, I thought they were operating on a Continuing Resolution beacuse they never settled the budget for this year.

For me, anything to do with Afghanistan is a poor argument.

There was no real reason to go in there in strength, just send a small Delta force in to take out OBL. What is going to happen the day after the troops leave (whenever that may be) is that the Taliban will be welcomed back in, Kharzai will be hung by his heels, along with all other collaborators and life will return to it's old tribal vendettas.

Agree on Afghanistan being a poor argument

As for Delta there were reports that happened....

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/10/02/60minutes/main4494937.shtml

Some reports also by ex-Delta claim he..OSB is in fact dead

Also agree that Afghanistan will remain as it always has been...But I do not think the US has to leave for that to happen.

It is now as it always was.....except the wasted lives on both sides & the bankrupting of the USA ( not due solely to Afghanistan )

Solution being that the violence would go away if we infidels remove ourselves form their land.

So, far as the fiscal year, I thought they were operating on a Continuing Resolution because they never settled the budget for this year.

Yes but we did not enter Afghanistan to stop violence....in fact it would be easy to claim we have escalated it.

The USA is going broke due to insane spending & the wars policing actions? Are a big part of it.

We have been operating on thin air for quite awhile now....Yet we do not see

What budget is there to settle? We just printed 600 billion in funny money (QE2) just in the first quarter of this year..to buy our own IOU's as less & less is anyone able to afford our debt, nor do they want it.

FUBAR

Anyway, some say the only solution is to completely pack up, military presence wise, and go back o the U.S. Do you think that would really work?

That is my preferred solution. I am not in favor of an American empire. If anyone had asked me I would not have been in favor of America entering either WW1 or WW2. I am of the belief that America is/was an exceptional country graced by geography and the most elegant of constitutions. IMO offshore interests have been trying to fuc_k it up ever since it's birth. I think they've finally succeeded.

Anyway, some say the only solution is to completely pack up, military presence wise, and go back o the U.S. Do you think that would really work?

That is my preferred solution. I am not in favor of an American empire. If anyone had asked me I would not have been in favor of America entering either WW1 or WW2. I am of the belief that America is/was an exceptional country graced by geography and the most elegant of constitutions. IMO offshore interests have been trying to fuc_k it up ever since it's birth. I think they've finally succeeded.

I wouldn't cry if we went back to being more isolationist. Let the rest of the world deal with their own problems.

We should have used the British "Butcher and Bolt" strategy in Afghanistan.

Anyway, some say the only solution is to completely pack up, military presence wise, and go back o the U.S. Do you think that would really work?

That is my preferred solution. I am not in favor of an American empire. If anyone had asked me I would not have been in favor of America entering either WW1 or WW2. I am of the belief that America is/was an exceptional country graced by geography and the most elegant of constitutions. IMO offshore interests have been trying to fuc_k it up ever since it's birth. I think they've finally succeeded.

I wouldn't cry if we went back to being more isolationist. Let the rest of the world deal with their own problems.

I'm pretty much thinking the same thing these days. But, I don't have any confidence the world is going to do a better job taking care of their problems this time around, so sooner or later we will probably have to get involved again.

I am of the belief that America is/was an exceptional country graced by geography and the most elegant of constitutions. IMO offshore interests have been trying to fuc_k it up ever since it's birth. I think they've finally succeeded.

I agree for the most part & is why I am still here.

But it is not without great problems & as you said it may be too late & FUBAR now

Of course defense spending is crazy off the charts but also how we have become a nation of consumers.

We have chased big business manufacturing off shore through strangling regulations instead of solutions.

We dont make much of anything ourselves anymore due to those regulations & the unions demanding silly high wages in comparison

to the rest of the world. So I cant blame the owners for taking their work elsewhere.

Seems like a vicious circle these days as the USA the undisputed largest dealer of weaponry sell to so many countries only years later to have it come back & bite them in the a$$.

Lastly of course our whole banking/financial system along with all that over the top defense spending & the constant raising of the debt ceiling has driven us so far off a the path that a real recovery looks less & less possible by the minute.

We did have an elegant constitution & more & more States are demanding a return to it. Some states have already filed to see if they can force the Federal government to return their National Guardsmen.

Other States will hopefully follow with a Jeffersonian Principles kind of thinking & start constraining the Federal Governments powers.

It has to start at the State levels or it will never happen.....Although Secession would be a fine alternative too. Would be nice to see a number of States decide they want the straight up constitution as the framers intended it. Of course it would never be *allowed*