Chiang Mai, Loi Kroh Road

[IanForbes]

Absolutely. You'd have to get drunk to go home with any of those Loy Kroh ladies. Its what happens in the morning that bothers me.

That is why you are given lots to choose from. I know a handful of very lovely gals who work at bars along Loy Kroh and I defy anyone to say they are not good looking and don't have nice figures. It's no different than ANYWERE in ANY country. Since I've been home in Canada for a month and I wander around the super market doing my shopping (yah, I have to cook for myself) I look at everyone and I can't say I would take one in 50 home with me if given the opportunity... even if they were free and available. I'm a pretty fussy guy when it comes to my partners and if an old fart like me can get away with it then I can understand the attraction for others.

You can always take the extreme in any situation and try to make it out to be the norm, but it's not. Yes, I look at many of the sad, homely women who are trying to eke out a living by doing whatever they can, and I wonder why they bother, but their options are limited and they made some bad choices in their life.

[IanForbes]

Of course, Ian Forbes never ages, so he still going strong.

You mean he's a vampire?

Shsss, you weren't supposed to tell anyone.

[TheFishman1]

Another friend mentioned to me that some time ago he visited a massage parlour in the area. He said that after 5 minutes the woman wanted to give him a little more extra then the regular massage. My friend was not interested and then the woman became abusive and aggressive, insisting on a 500 baht tip. My friend this being only his second time holidaying in Thailand, out of fear paid the woman and ran out. LOL If you don"t like the street well don't go down their,I have to get out more at night. I am loving this placeLOL just my 2 cents

[TheFishman1]

Another friend mentioned to me that some time ago he visited a massage parlour in the area. He said that after 5 minutes the woman wanted to give him a little more extra then the regular massage. My friend was not interested and then the woman became abusive and aggressive, insisting on a 500 baht tip. My friend this being only his second time holidaying in Thailand, out of fear paid the woman and ran out. THATS FUNNY LOL IF YOU DON'T LIKE A STREET DON'T GO I AM TRIED OF READING STUFF ON HOW BAD IT IS HERE.I AM HAVING A GREAT TIME WOULD NOT WON'T IT ANY OTHER WAY JUST MY 2 CENTS

[Member]

I went to Loy Kroh today as i was starving for some eye candy . ( i am stuck out in the sticks with a thai wife in San Sai )

.

Eye candies don't arrive before 10pm

[philliphn]

While it makes me sad to hear of women in their 30-40's desperately trying to get customers. I would like to see the continuation of the red light district. I am not offended by the red light district, or anything that is part of it. With the exception of obnoxious drunks. I would like to see the improvement of the Red Light district.

[philliphn]

While it makes me sad to hear of women in their 30-40's desperately trying to get customers. I would like to see the continuation of the red light district. I am not offended by the red light district, or anything that is part of it. With the exception of obnoxious drunks. I would like to see the improvement of the Red Light district.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

I went to Loy Kroh today as i was starving for some eye candy . ( i am stuck out in the sticks with a thai wife in San Sai )

.

Surely the eye candy is better in the local places up and down all major roads out of town including yours? That said I couldn' t help but notice some new faces at LK, Linda Bar specifically. (Too bad I don't like the place that much, but it still warrants a mention.)

[WinnieTheKhwai]

double post

[galaxist]

I went there last night for the first time. Ive only been here for about a month. I didnt find the place seedy at all. Just some people drinking and having fun. I did live in Pattaya for a couple months so many desenstized to "scene."

[wolf5370]

I quite like the place. Rarely visit the first set of tourist/girlie bars, but nice to walk past (always seem sparsely populated though these days). I like to have a mexican and a beer at Torros or pop in Petr's place (Olde Bell) or walk right through to Red Lion or Guitarman - more my sort of places personally. I agree that something should be done for the rat population though! They could probably even do with a few old time seedier places too (from a tourist point of view).

I do think there is real potetial in the neighbouring streets though - Chiang Moi or Thapea Road, for a bit more upmarket scene (possibly a small cassino too for the high rollers - not the low class card/tile places - would require a law change of course) - after all TAT is always going on about attracting better class of tourist! Be easier to pick and choose without having to go to the hotels or travel out - makes sense to keep it all together. I realise this isn't practical with the world's ecconomy in the toilet, but maybe a thought for the future rather than building hotels and guest houses left, right and centre that remain mostly empty all year around.

[Amras]

In some of the massage parlours we could see the farang guy sitting outside trying to look inconspicuous and to not bring attention upon himself that he is the owner.

Actually, those guys are usually tourists trying to get a "good girl' to date them for free. They really get in the way of real customers.

Seriously..? As if there's much difference in background between bargirls, massage girls, waitresses and other lower-end jobs? That's a bit misguided, but up to them of course. (As long as they don't start yapping on TV or elsewhere about having landed a 'good girl' who's actually an hilltribe massage girl or whatever, and how he's so much better than 'those guys who married bargirls' . )

That's a bit presumptuous don't you think? I don't believe for a second that being a massage girl, waitresses etc automatically puts them in the bad to be a gf/person category at all. I know a few of them (not having picked them up, or having any interest in them) and they don't go home with customers, don't offer extra services and prefer a steady relationship. But of course, I'm sure you will say you know better. Someone has to do the low end jobs (in any country) and simply because they do you can't go label them with your preconceived ideas of what type of person 'you' think they are. Sure there are people who aren't the 'good girl', but I've also known girls who have money and aren't so 'good'. Quite rightly makes me angry when people like you lay your all mighty perceptions on people you don't know. Stereotypes exist true, but doesn't mean 'good girls' don't exist in those 'lowly end jobs' Some of them are normal people who are just trying to earn an 'honest living'.

[Beetlejuice]

In some of the massage parlours we could see the farang guy sitting outside trying to look inconspicuous and to not bring attention upon himself that he is the owner.

Actually, those guys are usually tourists trying to get a "good girl' to date them for free. They really get in the way of real customers.

Seriously..? As if there's much difference in background between bargirls, massage girls, waitresses and other lower-end jobs? That's a bit misguided, but up to them of course. (As long as they don't start yapping on TV or elsewhere about having landed a 'good girl' who's actually an hilltribe massage girl or whatever, and how he's so much better than 'those guys who married bargirls' . )

That's a bit presumptuous don't you think? I don't believe for a second that being a massage girl, waitresses etc automatically puts them in the bad to be a gf/person category at all. I know a few of them (not having picked them up, or having any interest in them) and they don't go home with customers, don't offer extra services and prefer a steady relationship. But of course, I'm sure you will say you know better. Someone has to do the low end jobs (in any country) and simply because they do you can't go label them with your preconceived ideas of what type of person 'you' think they are. Sure there are people who aren't the 'good girl', but I've also known girls who have money and aren't so 'good'. Quite rightly makes me angry when people like you lay your all mighty perceptions on people you don't know. Stereotypes exist true, but doesn't mean 'good girls' don't exist in those 'lowly end jobs' Some of them are normal people who are just trying to earn an 'honest living'.

You are probably right. But unfortunately women that work in these category jobs are stereotyped and have been given reputations as being women of ill repute, whether some are or not, they are still all tarred with the same brush. And I dare say that the accusations of them having bad reputations have not been placed upon the BG types all for no reasons.

There are of course many legitimate good girls that work in the sex and adult entertainment industries, I would say a very small minority, but personally I wouldn’t take the risks of ever becoming hooked up or romantically involved with any of them because it is true that most have originated from low class backgrounds. Quite a few do have problems, mental or financial and can be unpredictable

Sorry, but that’s life and the way of the world, even if some of the views and opinions about these girls are undeserved and unfounded.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Seriously..? As if there's much difference in background between bargirls, massage girls, waitresses and other lower-end jobs? That's a bit misguided, but up to them of course. (As long as they don't start yapping on TV or elsewhere about having landed a 'good girl' who's actually an hilltribe massage girl or whatever, and how he's so much better than 'those guys who married bargirls' . )

That's a bit presumptuous don't you think? I don't believe for a second that being a massage girl, waitresses etc automatically puts them in the bad to be a gf/person category at all.

What I was saying that they tend to originate from a poor/rural background, with limited education and limited experience in mainstream middle class society. They are less likely to be an 'equal partner' to you in almost every way. Most notably financially. This imbalance often means that just financial issues alone cause a lot of turbulence in the relationship. Not sure if I should list out all the things that come about from inexperience with managing money or budget, but you are likely to experience some difficult discussions with people from generally the same poor/rural background as most bargirls.

I know a few of them (not having picked them up, or having any interest in them) and they don't go home with customers, don't offer extra services and prefer a steady relationship. But of course, I'm sure you will say you know better.

Not at all. I'm going to say 'it doesn't matter'. Their moral virtue is assumed. (Morals and virtue can also be found in plenty bargirls for that matter, depending on definition). But you will be arguing the silliest of money, budgeting or social issues with partners who were bargirls or waitresses or gas station attendants just the same. The result will likely be you end up not as equal partners.

As for 'social issues' this refers to functioning as regular middle class people now that she's acquired a financially middle or higher middle class life through her relationship with you. That includes 'getting stuff done' pro-actively at government offices and not acting like an inferior, and generally holding her own in society. I'm sure you have heard once or twice (or more) from 'knowledgeable Farangs' on this forum or elsewhere that Thai people can instantly recognize an ex bargirl for a partner. That's of course not realy true; they're not psychic. What it is they're recognising is someone who's uneducated, doesn't handle herself well, and is generally not of the same class they perceive from themselves. Of course they don't know if she was dancing on a pole 1 year ago or walking behind a tractor or waiting tables, but the key is: it doesn't matter to them!' Virtue doesn't enter into it.

I do realise this sucks, and I definitely don't like some of the classism or even domestic racism that's rife in Thailand. But I am explaining why the distinction between bar girl or farm girl for all intends and purposes isn't as big of a thing as many Westerners make it out to be.

[IanForbes]

That may be true, Beetlejuice, but frankly, after seeing what has gone on for the past 60 years I've been involved with the female species, and began to understand what was going on, I don't see much difference between women who sleep with multiple partners for free and those that sleep with multiple partners for money. And, the men who are with them are no different either. They want something and are willing ot pay for it one way or another. Women have a commodity that men want and the women use it either as a direct bartering system, or: to earn some extra money, to further their careers, to land a husband, to father a child, or any number of other personal goals. Religious groups have tried to put artificial standards on what is just a natural process, and try to enforce strict, rigid rules of behaviour that just don't work. Either married or un-married, it hasn't made any difference with both men and women.

I trust no one but myself and treat everyone with respect until they prove otherwise. Even then I make allowances for other people's actions. If I get stung occasionally then so be it. That is more than made up by people whose company I enjoy. That includes people from all walks of society. If they have something to offer that keeps me entertained then that is all I ask for. I've had male friends who were totally untrustworthy. They seldom acted responsible, never arrived on time, didn't repay loans and seldom did what they say they were going to do. But, when we were together there was always excitement and fun. Many of my memorable trips happened with such a fellow. However, I knew his limitations and I worked within them. I never changed other plans to fit in with Bobby Rays or I suffered the consequences. I can tell at least 10 great Bobby Ray stories. It has been no different with the women I've met in Thailand. They've all had something to offer that enriched my life. And, it hasn't just been their bodies.

[NancyL]

Hubby and I enjoyed dinner tonight at the Olde Bell on Loi Kroh Rd. Frankly, I don't see what all the fuss is about. We had a good meal, enjoyed several reasonably priced beers and had a nice chat with Pedr, the owner. Afterwards we walked home thru safe back alleys. No one propositioned us, the staff at Olde Bell certainly didn't seem to be looking for action and in general, I'd have to say it's nice to have so many entertainment options within walking distance of our home. We had a good meal at La Terrasse a couple weeks ago. I didn't see any bargirls in their establishment, either. Plus, the wine selection is excellent. It's nice to have some many dining/entertainment options so close to home. Wonderful road for a night out couple of times a month.

[PlanetX]

women of ill repute - lol

Calling bar girls that is the same as saying all falangs are failed sexpats

Obviously you have no clue what their life is like so <deleted>

[Beetlejuice]

That may be true, Beetlejuice, but frankly, after seeing what has gone on for the past 60 years I've been involved with the female species, and began to understand what was going on, I don't see much difference between women who sleep with multiple partners for free and those that sleep with multiple partners for money. And, the men who are with them are no different either. They want something and are willing ot pay for it one way or another. Women have a commodity that men want and the women use it either as a direct bartering system, or: to earn some extra money, to further their careers, to land a husband, to father a child, or any number of other personal goals. Religious groups have tried to put artificial standards on what is just a natural process, and try to enforce strict, rigid rules of behaviour that just don't work. Either married or un-married, it hasn't made any difference with both men and women.

I trust no one but myself and treat everyone with respect until they prove otherwise. Even then I make allowances for other people's actions. If I get stung occasionally then so be it. That is more than made up by people whose company I enjoy. That includes people from all walks of society. If they have something to offer that keeps me entertained then that is all I ask for. I've had male friends who were totally untrustworthy. They seldom acted responsible, never arrived on time, didn't repay loans and seldom did what they say they were going to do. But, when we were together there was always excitement and fun. Many of my memorable trips happened with such a fellow. However, I knew his limitations and I worked within them. I never changed other plans to fit in with Bobby Rays or I suffered the consequences. I can tell at least 10 great Bobby Ray stories. It has been no different with the women I've met in Thailand. They've all had something to offer that enriched my life. And, it hasn't just been their bodies.

Well, Ian, what you have quoted is what I have been saying for years.

Women use sex for gain of some sorts and I 100% agree with all that you say.

But the difference between the women that fornicate in higher society circles and BGs is class.

In society one is more acceptable than the other even if it`s unfounded. No need to explain, as we are both men of the world so sure you understand.

As for me, I`m as common as muck and proud. I`ll mix with anybody but would still draw the line at becoming deeply involved with a lady of ill repute. This does not mean that I would not be their friend or too pompus not to enjoy they`re company.

There are things that we do and other things we don`t do, it`s just the way it is.

You may find this article interesting:

http://www.dailymail...ds-careers.html

[IanForbes]

Hubby and I enjoyed dinner tonight at the Olde Bell on Loi Kroh Rd. Frankly, I don't see what all the fuss is about. We had a good meal, enjoyed several reasonably priced beers and had a nice chat with Pedr, the owner. Afterwards we walked home thru safe back alleys. No one propositioned us, the staff at Olde Bell certainly didn't seem to be looking for action and in general, I'd have to say it's nice to have so many entertainment options within walking distance of our home. We had a good meal at La Terrasse a couple weeks ago. I didn't see any bargirls in their establishment, either. Plus, the wine selection is excellent. It's nice to have some many dining/entertainment options so close to home. Wonderful road for a night out couple of times a month.

Yes, but you are a sensible woman, Nancy. And, obviously you don't get drunk and flash gold and money about. And, from your posts you don't look down at other people, either, but just live and let live.

I don't think anyone can dispute that people with little education don't fit into higher societies unless they are given some training. And, to be trained a person has to WANT to learn. That stands true no matter where you are in the world.

Rudyard Kipling's famous poem "IF" comes to mind... They are good thoughts to live by and I've tried my best to follow them.

If you can keep your head when all about you

Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;

If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,

But make allowance for their doubting too;

If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,

Or, being lied about, don't deal in lies,

Or, being hated, don't give way to hating,

And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise;

If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;

If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;

If you can meet with triumph and disaster

And treat those two imposters just the same;

If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken

Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,

Or watch the things you gave your life to broken,

And stoop and build 'em up with wornout tools;

If you can make one heap of all your winnings

And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,

And lose, and start again at your beginnings

And never breath a word about your loss;

If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew

To serve your turn long after they are gone,

And so hold on when there is nothing in you

Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on";

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,

Or walk with kings - nor lose the common touch;

If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;

If all men count with you, but none too much;

If you can fill the unforgiving minute

With sixty seconds' worth of distance run -

Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,

And - which is more - you'll be a Man my son!

[CMX]

Ah, Kipling!

Personally, I'm partial to his White Man's Burden, in which he explains the need for us Anglophones to reform,or improve, Oriental places (such as Loi Kroh, doubtless).

(Although from the result, I'm not certain that American's did very well; perhaps we farang will do better here. Why, were foreigners allowed to purchase property here, we could tear down one side of the street and create a genuine American strip... er, mall, on the other. In this way, Thais would see the light, come to love our ways, and even more quickly than is the pace now, become just like us [as we exist in our more prudish dreams]).

[Beetlejuice]

Ah, Kipling!

Personally, I'm partial to his White Man's Burden, in which he explains the need for us Anglophones to reform,or improve, Oriental places (such as Loi Kroh, doubtless).

(Although from the result, I'm not certain that American's did very well; perhaps we farang will do better here. Why, were foreigners allowed to purchase property here, we could tear down one side of the street and create a genuine American strip... er, mall, on the other. In this way, Thais would see the light, come to love our ways, and even more quickly than is the pace now, become just like us [as we exist in our more prudish dreams]).

I never did rate his white man’s burden but I am very fond of his Trifle Bakewells and jam tarts.

Everyone knows that Mr Kipling makes exceedingly good cakes.

[Dante99]

Seriously..? As if there's much difference in background between bargirls, massage girls, waitresses and other lower-end jobs? That's a bit misguided, but up to them of course. (As long as they don't start yapping on TV or elsewhere about having landed a 'good girl' who's actually an hilltribe massage girl or whatever, and how he's so much better than 'those guys who married bargirls' . )

That's a bit presumptuous don't you think? I don't believe for a second that being a massage girl, waitresses etc automatically puts them in the bad to be a gf/person category at all.

What I was saying that they tend to originate from a poor/rural background, with limited education and limited experience in mainstream middle class society. They are less likely to be an 'equal partner' to you in almost every way. Most notably financially. This imbalance often means that just financial issues alone cause a lot of turbulence in the relationship. Not sure if I should list out all the things that come about from inexperience with managing money or budget, but you are likely to experience some difficult discussions with people from generally the same poor/rural background as most bargirls.

I know a few of them (not having picked them up, or having any interest in them) and they don't go home with customers, don't offer extra services and prefer a steady relationship. But of course, I'm sure you will say you know better.

Not at all. I'm going to say 'it doesn't matter'. Their moral virtue is assumed. (Morals and virtue can also be found in plenty bargirls for that matter, depending on definition). But you will be arguing the silliest of money, budgeting or social issues with partners who were bargirls or waitresses or gas station attendants just the same. The result will likely be you end up not as equal partners.

As for 'social issues' this refers to functioning as regular middle class people now that she's acquired a financially middle or higher middle class life through her relationship with you. That includes 'getting stuff done' pro-actively at government offices and not acting like an inferior, and generally holding her own in society. I'm sure you have heard once or twice (or more) from 'knowledgeable Farangs' on this forum or elsewhere that Thai people can instantly recognize an ex bargirl for a partner. That's of course not realy true; they're not psychic. What it is they're recognising is someone who's uneducated, doesn't handle herself well, and is generally not of the same class they perceive from themselves. Of course they don't know if she was dancing on a pole 1 year ago or walking behind a tractor or waiting tables, but the key is: it doesn't matter to them!' Virtue doesn't enter into it.

I do realise this sucks, and I definitely don't like some of the classism or even domestic racism that's rife in Thailand. But I am explaining why the distinction between bar girl or farm girl for all intends and purposes isn't as big of a thing as many Westerners make it out to be.

"Functioning as regular middle class people" is certainly an important consideration. Wouldn't the world be wonderful if everybody could do it? Wonderful? Sure then they would be just like us?

Nice to know that you do not like s o m e of the classism. So clearly the other some of it is okay with you. I shall aspire to attain such fine middle class or higher middle class functioning.

[Amras]

What I was saying that they tend to originate from a poor/rural background, with limited education and limited experience in mainstream middle class society. They are less likely to be an 'equal partner' to you in almost every way. Most notably financially. This imbalance often means that just financial issues alone cause a lot of turbulence in the relationship. Not sure if I should list out all the things that come about from inexperience with managing money or budget, but you are likely to experience some difficult discussions with people from generally the same poor/rural background as most bargirls.

I know a few of them (not having picked them up, or having any interest in them) and they don't go home with customers, don't offer extra services and prefer a steady relationship. But of course, I'm sure you will say you know better.

Not at all. I'm going to say 'it doesn't matter'. Their moral virtue is assumed. (Morals and virtue can also be found in plenty bargirls for that matter, depending on definition). But you will be arguing the silliest of money, budgeting or social issues with partners who were bargirls or waitresses or gas station attendants just the same. The result will likely be you end up not as equal partners.

As for 'social issues' this refers to functioning as regular middle class people now that she's acquired a financially middle or higher middle class life through her relationship with you. That includes 'getting stuff done' pro-actively at government offices and not acting like an inferior, and generally holding her own in society. I'm sure you have heard once or twice (or more) from 'knowledgeable Farangs' on this forum or elsewhere that Thai people can instantly recognize an ex bargirl for a partner. That's of course not realy true; they're not psychic. What it is they're recognising is someone who's uneducated, doesn't handle herself well, and is generally not of the same class they perceive from themselves. Of course they don't know if she was dancing on a pole 1 year ago or walking behind a tractor or waiting tables, but the key is: it doesn't matter to them!' Virtue doesn't enter into it.

I do realise this sucks, and I definitely don't like some of the classism or even domestic racism that's rife in Thailand. But I am explaining why the distinction between bar girl or farm girl for all intends and purposes isn't as big of a thing as many Westerners make it out to be.

Well I had a reply typed out and lost it, so I will try again.

I don't believe for a second the whole relationship equal thing. There are so many variables on this it isn't funny and money is one (yes important of course) factor. A few points. Regardless of whether low or middle class, the only Thais who would be equal to a western income (as an example of mine) are those very upper middle class (ie higher than 100k per year) or the high so Thais, and reality is most farang are not going to get married to them, because of the classism that you so state (high-so's don't value farang and look down on us too, why? Because of the sexpat stereotype we have, well at least older/wiser farang). Probably not true for all, but we don't fit into any class in Thailand except the 'farang' class and most know what good and bad connotations that brings with it.

They lack of money has nothing to do with how good at managing money or budgeting you are. I had a higher than average income in Australian and I am horrible with both budgeting and managing my money. Why? There simply wasn't a need for me to do it. I could buy what I wanted when I wanted. On the other side, those with little money (in low paying jobs) often are looking after parent's/siblings etc on their income, managing to survive themself as well. They can't save, but it's not a priority when your trying to ensure your parents etc have money to have food on the table. Tell me exactly how that isn't good management with money? Yes, they probably buy things they don't need, but WE ALL do that just on a different scale. We are all just human and we all want things to make our life better even IF there is not a necessity for it. But overall I can't believe what these 'lower class' people do with the income they get. I wouldn't be able to survive on it on my own, yet somehow they do and they support their family. Go figure. I can't figure out how they do it.

Financial issues in a relationship will exist if you expect a relationship as in the west (and even then there comes a time when many women choose to not work, look after the family and THEN they are financially reliant on your income so the same scenario exists). There are 2 choices if you decide to be in this situation, either 1. Shutup, accept it and be happy to support them or 2. give them the opportunity that they didn't have to get some education in whatever area it is to be able to gain better employment (personally this is what I would do, if they don't take the offer than you know what they want/are lazy etc and you can choose from there). I think you have to remember that the financial reason is why so many 50+ expats can end up with a early 20something girlfriend in Thailand (and it happens for the very same reason in the west, although less frequent) and they are quite happy for that. Not something to concerned for me as I'm quite a bit younger than that.

Don't forget, social status, behaviors etc are learned. Many people were at some stage lower or middle class and can move and learn to behave in a way to fit in to their new surroundings (or class) when their situation changes, regardless of how they got there...remember people are adaptable, that's what makes us so different animals.

I could easily tell a bar girl from a farm girl, waitress, massage girl etc. The body language is different much different and easily recognisable, that is why Thais, especially girls can tell so easily (remember women are experts in body language, men are not, regardless of nationality it's a proven fact). I think it's very unfair of you (not talking about Thais as I don't expect the same 'western values' as I do of farang) to so easily label all 'lower class' workers as not 'good girls'. There is a vast difference in the intent, morales and virtues of girls working to make a living, ie waitressing, gas station attendants, massage girls (although these are 50/50 and some border with the bar girls) compared to bar girls who know they can use what they have to make money (same goes with probably half of the massage girls) earning 20-30k per month doing extra curricular activities. Compare that to those waitressing 60 hours a week for 6,000 baht (if they are lucky) purely to survive, massaging some hairy, fat old man for 80 baht an hour who has enough money to tip and doesn't because he is too cheap and you should really think about what these people do just to live.

Personally I couldn't do it and I don't understand how they do. But they do it, because Thailand has given them little other choice (everything from M1 up needs to be paid for and many families have the mindset westerners used to have 30 years ago Get a job as soon as you can. They don't value education and until that changes many young people will remain in the 'lower class' as time goes on. Thailand unfortunately needs lower class people, but this does not me for one second do they deserve to be boxed up into a label as 'not good girls' purely because of the situation they are in. Yes they may not be suitable girlfriends, wives, friends purely because of the people they are, but some of the least pretentious, genuine people I know are the ones who don't have a lot.

Thai's will be Thai's. Class system and all. But we aren't Thai's, don't share their same ideas of being in a class. That is my point and why I don't expect farang to pigeonhole people based on class as you suggested. There are many decent people in all classes of life as there are the completely opposite. Bar girls seem to be a mute point, but there are reasons for that. They chose to go into that industry when there are other options. Waitresses, massage girls (those just doing their job) etc do it because it earns an income. Just like in any other country.

Think I should stop.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

"Functioning as regular middle class people" is certainly an important consideration. Wouldn't the world be wonderful if everybody could do it? Wonderful? Sure then they would be just like us?

Right; Of course I realise people don't control who they fall in love with, but having dated women from many different backgrounds I have to say being with a woman with a more similar education/background/standing to my own has by far been the most stable and balanced. Fewer roller coaster rides.

Nice to know that you do not like s o m e of the classism. So clearly the other some of it is okay with you. I shall aspire to attain such fine middle class or higher middle class functioning.

Yes, some of it is okay with me. Specifically the extent that's just part and parcel of Thai/Asian culture. Western people often say they respect other cultures, but as soon as it clashes even in a very minor way with modern Western values then all of that goes out the door real quick. But yes, the classism that makes it not okay for people in a serving role to get all buddy-buddy with their clientele sits fine with me. And I have adjusted to some of the other ones, lots of things in the way my wife handles maids/staff, giving them their own dishes and spoons and stuff (meaning they cannot use ours), making sure they only use their own washroom, their own door to get in and out, not mixing laundry in any way, i.e. a level of separation. Whatever.. B ut I am very much opposed to the kind of classism that puts people down, especially by people who shouldn't be throwing stones. (This is what I disliked about many *almost* middle class or wannabe middle class people, when they show a tendency to want to put down anyone they feel they are superior to. )

[IanForbes]

Well said, Amrass. I can't disagree. But, as I've said many times, I won't waste my time worrying about what I can't change. If I can help just one person have a better life then that makes me happy.

[justmaybe]

I confess that this thread sent me racing to Loi Kroh way past my bedtime a few nights ago to see what dreadful stuff people there get up to that I have been missing out on. I am admittedly slowing down, because the only "hey sexy guy, where you go?" addressed to me directly actually gave me a bit of cheer. However, I ended my walk with the sense that if this is the best Chiang Mai can do in the way of depravity it really needs to pull its collective socks up-- and in many cases ditch the sandals.

[Dante99]

"Functioning as regular middle class people" is certainly an important consideration. Wouldn't the world be wonderful if everybody could do it? Wonderful? Sure then they would be just like us?

Right; Of course I realise people don't control who they fall in love with, but having dated women from many different backgrounds I have to say being with a woman with a more similar education/background/standing to my own has by far been the most stable and balanced. Fewer roller coaster rides.

Nice to know that you do not like s o m e of the classism. So clearly the other some of it is okay with you. I shall aspire to attain such fine middle class or higher middle class functioning.

Yes, some of it is okay with me. Specifically the extent that's just part and parcel of Thai/Asian culture. Western people often say they respect other cultures, but as soon as it clashes even in a very minor way with modern Western values then all of that goes out the door real quick. But yes, the classism that makes it not okay for people in a serving role to get all buddy-buddy with their clientele sits fine with me. And I have adjusted to some of the other ones, lots of things in the way my wife handles maids/staff, giving them their own dishes and spoons and stuff (meaning they cannot use ours), making sure they only use their own washroom, their own door to get in and out, not mixing laundry in any way, i.e. a level of separation. Whatever.. B ut I am very much opposed to the kind of classism that puts people down, especially by people who shouldn't be throwing stones. (This is what I disliked about many *almost* middle class or wannabe middle class people, when they show a tendency to want to put down anyone they feel they are superior to. )

Gee, thanks for all that Winnie. Just think what the world would be like if everyone had "middle class or higher middle class". No more "social issues" except wives making their maids feel like a lower class of animal? Can't even shit in the same hole?

Yeh, a bit of classism is fine for you. How about a bit of racism or a bit of theft or just a very little bit of rape? Like how do you draw the line?

[Amras]

"Functioning as regular middle class people" is certainly an important consideration. Wouldn't the world be wonderful if everybody could do it? Wonderful? Sure then they would be just like us?

Right; Of course I realise people don't control who they fall in love with, but having dated women from many different backgrounds I have to say being with a woman with a more similar education/background/standing to my own has by far been the most stable and balanced. Fewer roller coaster rides.

Nice to know that you do not like s o m e of the classism. So clearly the other some of it is okay with you. I shall aspire to attain such fine middle class or higher middle class functioning.

Yes, some of it is okay with me. Specifically the extent that's just part and parcel of Thai/Asian culture. Western people often say they respect other cultures, but as soon as it clashes even in a very minor way with modern Western values then all of that goes out the door real quick. But yes, the classism that makes it not okay for people in a serving role to get all buddy-buddy with their clientele sits fine with me. And I have adjusted to some of the other ones, lots of things in the way my wife handles maids/staff, giving them their own dishes and spoons and stuff (meaning they cannot use ours), making sure they only use their own washroom, their own door to get in and out, not mixing laundry in any way, i.e. a level of separation. Whatever.. B ut I am very much opposed to the kind of classism that puts people down, especially by people who shouldn't be throwing stones. (This is what I disliked about many *almost* middle class or wannabe middle class people, when they show a tendency to want to put down anyone they feel they are superior to. )

Gee, thanks for all that Winnie. Just think what the world would be like if everyone had "middle class or higher middle class". No more "social issues" except wives making their maids feel like a lower class of animal? Can't even shit in the same hole?

Yeh, a bit of classism is fine for you. How about a bit of racism or a bit of theft or just a very little bit of rape? Like how do you draw the line?

I agree. Maybe not the rape part, but if my girlfriend acted that way (above) to someone I would come down hard on her, because it's not acceptable to treat people like that. The thing is, my girlfriend wouldn't treat people like that, treats everyone equally that deserve to be treated that way. The only people she won't go out of her way to be polite and courteous to are those that aren't to her.

"And I have adjusted to some of the other ones, lots of things in the way my wife handles maids/staff, giving them their own dishes and spoons and stuff (meaning they cannot use ours), making sure they only use their own washroom, their own door to get in and out, not mixing laundry in any way, i.e. a level of separation. Whatever.. B ut I am very much opposed to the kind of classism that puts people down, especially by people who shouldn't be throwing stones. (This is what I disliked about many *almost* middle class or wannabe middle class people, when they show a tendency to want to put down anyone they feel they are superior to. )"

Wow. See I think this type of girl is not a 'good girl'. Is the door labeled 'servant door only'?? I mean common.

Treating others as lower than you purely because they do a job which your unwilling to do is well....quite frankly disgusting. I really dislike people who are snobs and act as if they are better because of what...money? That goes for Thailand and Australia.

Money doesn't define the character of an individual which you seem to forget. Quite honestly those with money can have some of the nastiest personalities in society because of their snobbish attitude.

You seem to imply that those who are 'born' into middle or upper middle class have the right to "show a tendency to want to put down anyone they feel they are superior to." but when someone from a lower class who moves up (or tries to) does the same THEN it annoys you. In both cases it's bad, maybe somewhat worse yes that those who move up the social ladder start to do this as they should know better. but regardless it doesn't excuse behavior like this from anyone IMO.

Regardless of class everyone's a human being, and deserved to be judged by their actions and not by some pigeon holing stereotype. Just as many of us on here complain about the western stereotype of middle to late age men going to Thailand to be a 'sexpat'.

[booma]

If Loy Kroh is grotty then its become the natural offshoot for the night bazaar area which is just passable by night, but incredibly gross by day. In fact, thanks in large part ot the tatty metal carts around the place, it is one of the ugliest downtown areas I have come across. What a wasted opportunity.

Thapae Road also has huge potential for beautification into an upmarket shopping precinct. I disagree though with the need for widespread "modernisation" ... In this area I would go for restoration and sensitive modification & re-use of the old buildings with a northern thai/lanna theme. Keep the gleaming new buildings and modern look for Nimmenhamin or some other designated precinct.

I couldn't agree more, and I think you'd find that the Thai authorities would also agree, especially with your statements about the night bazaar. I read somewhere that the night bazaar has stopped receiving funds from the local government in favour of places such as the walking street market. Very sensible.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

I don't believe for a second the whole relationship equal thing. There are so many variables on this it isn't funny and money is one (yes important of course) factor. A few points. Regardless of whether low or middle class, the only Thais who would be equal to a western income (as an example of mine) are those very upper middle class (ie higher than 100k per year) or the high so Thais,

Well.. Every time budget comes up on Thaivisa (which is quite regularly) it seems there are plenty Westerners who have a budget of around 40-60K. That's a good middle class salary, or at the very least it's in the same ballpark, especially when considering that people would already own a house, have some land somewhere and so on. A Salary of 5000-8000 baht is not in the same ball park, that's living hand to mouth. Anyway, this just to clarify; I'm not advocating complete parity, but more being roughly similar level of comfort/lifestyle, which may include owning a home, driving a car, etc. Likely having savings, insurance, investments, i.e. a typical western life style. But I'm not going down the last satang; anything above living hand to mouth is fine.

and reality is most farang are not going to get married to them, because of the classism that you so state (high-so's don't value farang and look down on us too, why? Because of the sexpat stereotype we have, well at least older/wiser farang). Probably not true for all, but we don't fit into any class in Thailand except the 'farang' class and most know what good and bad connotations that brings with it.

Right. It's true most Farang don't seem to get married to them, but a significant minority, who don't fit the 'sexpat bum' stereotype, do. I'd say those are the ones doing it right. I don't think classism applies too much here; anyone capable of getting into a real relationship back home can do so with a Thai person of similar standing to what his own standing would be at home, or here.

They lack of money has nothing to do with how good at managing money or budgeting you are.

I think someone with little assets or education is going to have a hard time talking to a bank manager getting a mortgage. For example. This is kind of what I was hinting at earlier when I said 'functioning in normal middle class society'.

Thai's will be Thai's. Class system and all. But we aren't Thai's, don't share their same ideas of being in a class. That is my point and why I don't expect farang to pigeonhole people based on class as you suggested. There are many decent people in all classes of life as there are the completely opposite. Bar girls seem to be a mute point, but there are reasons for that. They chose to go into that industry when there are other options. Waitresses, massage girls (those just doing their job) etc do it because it earns an income. Just like in any other country.

That's a valid point. (And you made several other good points as well that I didn't quote). To be honest I would prefer the whole class thing would go away. When given the choice though I think life in Thailand is easier if you have a partner who went to university, knows people, has a good job, and can get stuff done.