Ian

Who are the "people with half a brain" and "the self righteous" that you are referring to here?

Just a generalization, rakers. But, I see it a lot on thaivisa. In my last year of highschool and throughout university I was taught to actually READ the questions asked on an exam. Too often students would only HALF read the question and then jump to a false conclusion. I'm still guilty of doing that occasionally when I am tired. I analyse everything I read, hear or see. That is why I'm a good angler. I make allowances for other people's positions and I don't jump to false conclusions. I can usually see BOTH sides to an argument and I base my replies on what I actually read... not what I ASSUME the author is saying. I make no bones about my scorn for many of the fanatical religious groups or people with an agenda they want to press no matter what the cause.

+1 rakers. totally different scenarios that have nothing to do with the other. to some rapist an old women wearing a brown home knitted cardy would be fair game or a teenager wearing a school uniform. deliberately wearing a stars & stripes tshirt in iraq would be making a political statement. me leaving my house wearing a pair of skinny jeans, tank top & high heels, showing my arms & a bit of cleavage would not.

You would be right 99% of the time, Boo, but in the wrong place at the wrong time you "might" be advertising something to the borderline neanderthal... of which there are many. Is it right? No, but anything that might potentially "trigger" the weirdos is a risk. It's not a lot different than flashing a lot of gold jewelry and large amounts of cash in a seedy neighbourhood. It IS going to attract attention. There are things I don't do any more and places I don't visit anymore because it's no longer safe in those places. Certain countries in Africa and parts of the Philippines come to mind.

I don't know the policeman who made the unfortunate remark that started the marches. Maybe he really IS a sexist jerk, I don't know. But, he also might just be having the women's best interests at heart and didn't realize what he said would be taken out of context.

Generalizations you see on Thaivisa. Yes indeed, I also see many such generalizations but I suspect we see different ones.

Back to the fallacious idea that dress is compelling to rapists, you still fail to grasp that a very very small minority of rapes occur at risky times and in risky places.

Indeed I wouldn't go walking around in a bad neighborhood with a skirt halfway up my crotch and my boobs spilling out, but then the vast majority of women who are raped aren't doing that either and I seriously doubt that anyone with half a brain would think otherwise. And yes I am speaking generally here about halfwitted people.

Generalizations you see on Thaivisa. Yes indeed, I also see many such generalizations but I suspect we see different ones.

Back to the fallacious idea that dress is compelling to rapists, you still fail to grasp that a very very small minority of rapes occur at risky times and in risky places.

Indeed I wouldn't go walking around in a bad neighborhood with a skirt halfway up my crotch and my boobs spilling out, but then the vast majority of women who are raped aren't doing that either and I seriously doubt that anyone with half a brain would think otherwise. And yes I am speaking generally here about halfwitted people.

And maybe you are guilty of NOT reading my reply # 63 where I AGREED with you.

SBK is correct that many rapes are NOT about sex at all. It is about power and control, and very often a form of revenge against ALL women. My younger sister in England deals with victims of rape all the time. She has a shelter for women who have been abused, and she provides psychological training for women to recover from the humiliating experience. Many of the women still carry the physical scars on their bodies, and their minds are twisted by the abject horror of the experience. Many of the women were raped by authorities in foreign countries, and very often they were the same authorities who were supposed to help the women escape from the Muslim countries in the first place where they were mistreated. During the terrible war in the former Yugoslavia, rape was a constant method of brutality by soldiers of all countries involved.

I think most of us here are agreed about where most rapes occur and by whom. You posted a whole list of them. We can agree to disagree that there might be some situations where a rape is provoked either directly or indirectly. But that doesn't' mean it's an excuse for rape. No! should mean No! But, I've also heard of many cases where rape was SUPPOSED to have occurred but the woman/girl was lying to hide embarrassment, or get back at being jilted by some boyfriend. Of course, there are many more cases of rape that are not reported at all.

Generalizations you see on Thaivisa. Yes indeed, I also see many such generalizations but I suspect we see different ones.

Back to the fallacious idea that dress is compelling to rapists, you still fail to grasp that a very very small minority of rapes occur at risky times and in risky places.

Indeed I wouldn't go walking around in a bad neighborhood with a skirt halfway up my crotch and my boobs spilling out, but then the vast majority of women who are raped aren't doing that either and I seriously doubt that anyone with half a brain would think otherwise. And yes I am speaking generally here about halfwitted people.

But SOME are, and SOME are raped because of the "come hither" attire. I think HB's, Ian's, and my point is that the Canadian cop was advising to reduce the risk...as there is a risk.

And, wearing the stars and stripes is a specific style of dress and one that will be deliberately provocative in such a scenario.

Do you think that women wearing slutty clothes (whatever the rapist might deem slutty is), are knowingly deliberately provoking a rape?

Bad example dude.

I don't think any woman wants to provoke a rape. I DO think some women want to provoke men, just to see them slather and then to turn them down.....teasers.

Indeed the Kandahar analogy was extreme.....but I think you missed the point; that when it is a fact that there is a risk, it is foolhardy not to reduce the risk.

BTW...a mini and boob tube is also a specific style of dress that is actually designed to be provocative.

Ken Clarke

He also said date rapes were included in the figures adding: "Date rape can be as serious as the worst rapes but date rapes... in my very old experience of being in trials [from his time as a practising lawyer]... they do vary extraordinarily one from another, and in the end the judge has to decide on the circumstances."

I think I have already mentioned Neandertrolls............

I don't think any woman wants to provoke a rape. I DO think some women want to provoke men, just to see them slather and then to turn them down.....teasers.

Indeed the Kandahar analogy was extreme.....but I think you missed the point; that when it is a fact that there is a risk, it is foolhardy not to reduce the risk.

BTW...a mini and boob tube is also a specific style of dress that is actually designed to be provocative.

That is true. I've seen it many times with others and experienced it more than a few times myself. Some women are provocative teasers and get their thrills from teasing men, because 99.9% of the time they can get away with it. However, once in a while they misjudge the man and for whatever reason the guy loses control and snaps. He's not the same man who will grab a woman off a jogging trail, but he IS a time bomb waiting for a trigger. Then, it becomes just as sbk said... a power trip of anger towards women, and using rape as means to show their anger. All us sensible guys want is for women to minimize the risks.

All us sensible guys want is for women to minimize the risks.

Might as well tell them to stay indoors then!

BTW...a mini and boob tube is also a specific style of dress that is actually designed to be provocative.

Please explain, a woman wearing a mini and boob tube is asking to be raped?

All us sensible guys want is for women to minimize the risks.

Might as well tell them to stay indoors then!

Well, as long as they agree to stay indoors with me they will be perfectly safe.

Hey, they will also be safe if they stay OUTDOORS with me. I can't speak for you, though.

BTW...a mini and boob tube is also a specific style of dress that is actually designed to be provocative.

Please explain, a woman wearing a mini and boob tube is asking to be raped?

He didn't SAY a woman is asking to be raped if she wears sexy clothing. He said sexy clothing is designed to be provocative... and it is. Otherwise a woman wouldn't wear it. Baggy shorts and floppy sweater is much more comfortable. Why do women wear high heals? I can't imagine a more uncomfortable piece of footwear. But, high heals DO make a woman's walk more attractive.

And, for that matter, why do men dress up in a suit for going out in the evening? The obvious answer is because they want to look good.

The problem lies with the fact that when you are sending out signals then those signals go out to EVERYONE and not just to a chosen few.

This thread is a wonderful lesson in ancient history. Reading some of the posts is like travelling back to Neanderthal times. The amount of self-justification that some of you straight boys come out with to justify yourselves is remarkable

And, for that matter, why do men dress up in a suit for going out in the evening? The obvious answer is because they want to look good.

Which reminds me, a few months ago I had a serious meeting to attend, so I dug out my best suit and - horror of horrors - found that the trousers had shrunk by about four inches round the waist.

So I went to the next suit and found the same.

Had to go in a pair of working trousers and separate jacket in the end. Fortunately the 17" neck on my shirt still allowed me to close the top button and wear a tie.

(Note to all - this attire was not provocative - no one lusted after my body in any way)

This thread is a wonderful lesson in ancient history. Reading some of the posts is like travelling back to Neanderthal times. The amount of self-justification that some of you straight boys come out with to justify yourselves is remarkable

Very snide remark, isn't it?

There is no 'self-justification' here. Just several normal guys trying to put over the point that provocative dress is designed to provoke and does just that - provoke.

We have not in any way condoned any rape, nor have we followed Ken Clarke's stupid statement that some rapes are more serious than others.

What we have tried to put across is that the circumstances of a rape can vary greatly - the serial rapist does not normally need the provocation of a certain style of dress to set him off (although there are cases of this happening).

But the one-off may be due to a combination of factors, one of which is the provocative dress / manner of the girl/woman involved. Obviously there may be other factors such as drink, allowed heavy petting and so on, which raise the level of excitement of the man to a stage where he cannot stop, even if, under other, less provocative circumstances, he would be better able to control himself.

This is only a single section of a very complicated, many-facetted problem. But the Canadian policeman, in my opinion, was just trying to reduce the risk that women run, by saying think a little and try to see where your actions may lead.

BTW...a mini and boob tube is also a specific style of dress that is actually designed to be provocative.

Please explain, a woman wearing a mini and boob tube is asking to be raped?

He didn't SAY a woman is asking to be raped if she wears sexy clothing. He said sexy clothing is designed to be provocative... and it is. Otherwise a woman wouldn't wear it. Baggy shorts and floppy sweater is much more comfortable. Why do women wear high heals? I can't imagine a more uncomfortable piece of footwear. But, high heals DO make a woman's walk more attractive.

And, for that matter, why do men dress up in a suit for going out in the evening? The obvious answer is because they want to look good.

The problem lies with the fact that when you are sending out signals then those signals go out to EVERYONE and not just to a chosen few.

He didn't SAY a woman is asking to be raped if she wears sexy clothing. He said sexy clothing is designed to be provocative... and it is. Otherwise a woman wouldn't wear it.

To provoke what exactly? Perhaps they wear it to feel good, make themselves feel better, possibly even attract a mate, 'Maslows' basic needs kicking in here, but nowhere does it read that they are provoking anything else.

As you suggest, certain clothing highlights certain attributes, that is not provocative, that is using your skill sets to there best advantage.

Wearing heels may well send out signals, but if you think those signals are to provoke rather than attract, you are in the mix of a generation that is several time zones outside recent generations, or just desperately trying to find reasons of justification that is plainly a straw man argument.

There is no 'self-justification' here. Just several normal guys trying to put over the point that provocative dress is designed to provoke and does just that - provoke.

My argument is based around that it is not designed to provoke but other needs as already stated, to feel good, attraction, and plain old fashion even

We have not in any way condoned any rape, nor have we followed Ken Clarke's stupid statement that some rapes are more serious than others.

I agree no one is condoning rape, just putting forward forms of justification and in my opinion some rapes are more serious than others, all are serious, kill/rape is more serious than violent/gang rape which is more serious than maybe other rapes, the individual involved may disagree, whatever the judgement, it is far more serious than attacks on property or the state.

What we have tried to put across is that the circumstances of a rape can vary greatly -

I can't argue with that

But the one-off may be due to a combination of factors, one of which is the provocative dress / manner of the girl/woman involved. Obviously there may be other factors such as drink, allowed heavy petting and so on, which raise the level of excitement of the man to a stage where he cannot stop, even if, under other, less provocative circumstances, he would be better able to control himself.

Whatever the circumstances, no means no, the results are just too horrific to contemplate oherwise.

To provoke what exactly? Perhaps they wear it to feel good, make themselves feel better, possibly even attract a mate, 'Maslows' basic needs kicking in here, but nowhere does it read that they are provoking anything else.

Quick question Moss, why do women wear lipstick, what is its basic function?

To provoke what exactly? Perhaps they wear it to feel good, make themselves feel better, possibly even attract a mate, 'Maslows' basic needs kicking in here, but nowhere does it read that they are provoking anything else.

Quick question Moss, why do women wear lipstick, what is its basic function?

To rub off on your shirt collar, so the wife notices.

And what is with black lipstick, or any colour other than red?

To provoke what exactly? Perhaps they wear it to feel good, make themselves feel better, possibly even attract a mate, 'Maslows' basic needs kicking in here, but nowhere does it read that they are provoking anything else.

Quick question Moss, why do women wear lipstick, what is its basic function?

To encourage a rape?

To provoke what exactly? Perhaps they wear it to feel good, make themselves feel better, possibly even attract a mate, 'Maslows' basic needs kicking in here, but nowhere does it read that they are provoking anything else.

Quick question Moss, why do women wear lipstick, what is its basic function?

To encourage a rape?

Don't be silly, it's a serious question (and I should have indicated red lipstick)

To provoke what exactly? Perhaps they wear it to feel good, make themselves feel better, possibly even attract a mate, 'Maslows' basic needs kicking in here, but nowhere does it read that they are provoking anything else.

Quick question Moss, why do women wear lipstick, what is its basic function?

To encourage a rape?

Don't be silly, it's a serious question (and I should have indicated red lipstick)

It was a serious answer Thad, albeit somewhat rhetorical

In the context of this thread, a woman should not wear lipstick because it might provoke a rape.

Quick question Moss, why do women wear lipstick, what is its basic function?

One reason is because it shows best under the limelight and hence became a favourite for actresses and hence women wanted to copy the actresses.

However, the answer you want me to give, ain't coming from my quiet, innocent Catholic mouth Ha Ha

Quick question Moss, why do women wear lipstick, what is its basic function?

However, the answer you want me to give, ain't coming from my quiet, innocent Catholic mouth Ha Ha

And why would that be?

And why would that be?

You know as well as I, the original reason for the red lipstick and like I alluded to earlier, I am a shy little Irish, innocent Catholic boy, and I ain't repeating it here.

But there is nothing stopping yourself of course...................

why do men go to the gym to keep in shape? why do men wear form fitting clothes to show off their gym body? why do men shave?

obviously they are asking to get raped.

contrary to a lot of beliefs, women wear make up or put on nice clothes mainly for their own benefit not to "prick tease" or attract men

And why would that be?

You know as well as I, the original reason for the red lipstick and like I alluded to earlier, I am a shy little Irish, innocent Catholic boy, and I ain't repeating it here.

But there is nothing stopping yourself of course...................

Nope.

I'm not going to post anything that could be misunderstood and I have to apologise for, especially if the apology won't be taken seriously.

obviously they are asking to get raped.

Well, we sure hope so! But, it just doesn't happen so often after you've past 50.

Yes I am sure you would all love it if some guy named Bubba raped you since most rapes are done by men.

Yes I am sure you would all love it if some guy named Bubba raped you since most rapes are done by men.

Well, if I was gay, and Bubba was kinda cute...

You and I both know we are on the same side on this issue and are just picking the extremes to make a case.

I would have no problem executing each and every brutal rapist who attacks women in unprovoked assaults. And, I wouldn't lose a moment's sleep over it. But, there is a big difference between assaulting some stranger, and a couple who are making out and the woman says no just just before they consumate the act. They are both rape, and both are wrong, but you can't deny there isn't a difference.