Rubber Trees

[philo]

Thanks again. I will always try to think about a 'norm' tree - average soil, fertilizer, treatment, water, tapping skills etc - as if I go out in the Nong Khai wilderness and pick a tree that on DateInAsia would be rated Average. All I need to know is the age. And I will think in gross production.

I have now read the entire thread (is the good Mr. Collister the same man that has videos on youtube?).

Anyway - would like to try again with some uploaded material (source: Wiki. Layer 4 on the photo is called 'phloem' and gives nutrition to the tree by capillar forces, layer 5 for a rubber three is the latex vessels that are to be cut ortogonally to get the most latex, and layer 6 and 7 are the bark and the skin. In total a mm or so. Cutting too deep damages the tree's nutrition source. As an experiment: Take one tree, cut 2-3 mms around the circumference, and it will die.

The video shows these latex vessels and how they form a helix - hence why the cuts are made with an angle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPMl_xDnC5A&feature=fvwrel

[philo]

A few remarks/requests please:

1. In the post above I forgot to say cut 2-3 mms in a YOUNG tree.

2. By 'gross' I mean the produce of the tree as 'dried cups' - before any split or mat making or ... (I understand that even this concept is difficult, in my ex wife's village some people have to go faaar away to sell their rubber because they used to 'increase' the produce by putting stones in the cups).

3. Could a mod please delete post # 46. I must have been more drunk than usual, since I didn't even manage to edit it down to zero. Thanks.

[Boeing757]

With regards to the last few posts, I would like to turn this post around to a subject that perplexes me somewhat, and i am not trying to be smart. I really do not understand. Maybe someone will enlighten me.

I have mentioned that last years average RSS 3 price was about THB100/Kg. (Actually it was THB 116.08)

Tothemark has now revealed that last years average cup rubber price was THB 55/Kg. A fact I can accept completely.

WHY?

For the added extra work and equipment needed, why are farmers making cup rubber when they could double their income by making sheets?

Clive

[Bosse137]

Two things: 1. I have read,that although fertilises are nesecery and importent for the trees,and therefore also for the output of liquid,they do not,in the short perspectiv,enhance the production of it.Is this correct? Like if you give fertilisers to strawberries,the leaves will benefit,but less fruit. 2. Why do people pay 200 baht/hour to tappers?! I have 800 trees and the tapper cuts them in 6 hours.If I paid 40-50%,he would get about 1600-2000 baht. Now,I have done some cutting myself,and I found it to be not so hard work and working nighttime,when there is no burning sunshine but cool weather,is different from,let`s say,planting rice or cutting sugarcain,,something that pays far less.OK,you can say,that cutting rubber takes more skill then planting rice,but whatever work you compare to,rubbercutting pays a lot more.By the way,when I say "not so hard work",I can add,that I am 68 years old with no previous experience of this work,so my point is,if I do not find it hard,why would a younger ,experienced person do that...

[Bosse137]

The answer to why farmers go on with cup-rubber for about half the price is,that making sheets takes away appr.half the weight,which means,the final revenu will be the same,but making sheets takes a lot of more work plus the problem with storing them.

[Bosse137]

The answer to why farmers go on with cup-rubber for about half the price is,that making sheets takes away appr.half the weight,which means,the final revenu will be the same,but making sheets takes a lot of more work plus the problem with storing them.

[Bosse137]

The answer to why farmers go on with cup-rubber for about half the price is,that making sheets takes away appr.half the weight,which means,the final revenu will be the same,but making sheets takes a lot of more work plus the problem with storing them.

[scotbeve]

Friday's FOB prices (cut 20% to 25% of this for your "at the gate" prices):

http://www.thainr.com/en/?detail=pr-local

http://www.irco.biz/Cprices-th.php

http://rubbermarketnews.net/rubber-thai/

Note that cup rubber is not half the price (FOB) of USS 3 (5% moisture).

[Bosse137]

Two things: 1. I have read,that although fertilises are nesecery and importent for the trees,and therefore also for the output of liquid,they do not,in the short perspectiv,enhance the production of it.Is this correct? Like if you give fertilisers to strawberries,the leaves will benefit,but less fruit. 2. Why do people pay 200 baht/hour to tappers?! I have 800 trees and the tapper cuts them in 6 hours.If I paid 40-50%,he would get about 1600-2000 baht. Now,I have done some cutting myself,and I found it to be not so hard work and working nighttime,when there is no burning sunshine but cool weather,is different from,let`s say,planting rice or cutting sugarcain,,something that pays far less.OK,you can say,that cutting rubber takes more skill then planting rice,but whatever work you compare to,rubbercutting pays a lot more.By the way,when I say "not so hard work",I can add,that I am 68 years old with no previous experience of this work,so my point is,if I do not find it hard,why would a younger ,experienced person do that...

I better correct myself before somebody else does it;It`s more like 300 Baht/hour.And the six hours is the time I need for the work.My stepson does it in 3 hours,which would amount to 600Baht/hour! Another thing,the percent is on the selligprice.I do not no of any other labourwork,where this is the case (I could be wrong).If you harvest corn,rice,sugarcain,whatever,you do not get paid depending on the sellingprice.About quantity,reasonably skilled tappers will have about the same amount in kilos.In other words,wether the selling price is high or low,the work is exactly the same and should therefore be paid the same amount.Some people pay per tree,eg 50 satang/tree,which is more logic.But of course,up to anyone to pay what he wants,I`m just curious as to why.... By the way,sorry for the tripple-post...

[scotbeve]

Bosse,

It seems to me that profit sharing is the only way to go as far as being a foreigner here. I've left my brother-in-law in charge of all my farms for the past 7 years and he's done a great job. Yes, he is very trustworthy... This has included jobbing out all our farm machinery (close to 20 yrs. now...)... They're all well maintained and as busy as feasibly possible.

Next year, when tapping starts, he'll get exactly 50% profit - tho' first year won't be too much. My brother-in-law has hired permanently 6 or 7 villagers to tap our plantations and after they have had a trial period under the supervision of a well-experienced tapper (govt. supplied for free BTW), they will be on payroll but not for only tapping. We will share the cost of the tappers, tools/lights/cups, etc., fuel costs, machinery, etc. in other words, everything.

[Bosse137]

Bosse,

It seems to me that profit sharing is the only way to go as far as being a foreigner here. I've left my brother-in-law in charge of all my farms for the past 7 years and he's done a great job. Yes, he is very trustworthy... This has included jobbing out all our farm machinery (close to 20 yrs. now...)... They're all well maintained and as busy as feasibly possible.

Next year, when tapping starts, he'll get exactly 50% profit - tho' first year won't be too much. My brother-in-law has hired permanently 6 or 7 villagers to tap our plantations and after they have had a trial period under the supervision of a well-experienced tapper (govt. supplied for free BTW), they will be on payroll but not for only tapping. We will share the cost of the tappers, tools/lights/cups, etc., fuel costs, machinery, etc. in other words, everything.

Interesting,scotbeve.As I said,up to each to pay what he wants,and as long as you are happy with the arrangement,that`s great!Although I must say,that being a foreigner has nothing to do with it.In my neck of woods,I am the only foreigner here,and I am also the only one who not pay 40-50 %..Everybody else,Thai,does.When I ask them why,they say,that is what has always been paid and also,otherwise nobody will work for them.OK,always been paid;of course,till a few years ago,when the price was 15-20 baht/kilo,it made sence.But now,at 70/80,it does not.And will not work? snick-snack,not true.I have more than a few,who wants to work for me.I pay 500 Baht for cutting AND giving chemikal in the cup.That is not a bad pay for a days work..

[jamescollister]

Hi all

been off line for awhile, so have missed a bit . Anyway will toss my 2 bits worth in on a few questions. Yes I am the guy on you tube.

Cup rubber does not fetch the same price as sheet, dry cup is roughly half the price of dry sheet. Thais do cup because it is easy, less work and no need for machines and smokers, A Thai farmer can tap his trees go back to sleep, tend his rice or what ever and leave the rubber in the cup. When the cup is full he just throws it on the ground to let it dry. Then one day he will go pick it up and sell.

The income question, don't know how many times over the years this has been covered and I don't have an answer, I have over the years turned somewhat Thai and have long given up on keeping numbers and figures. I don;t even know how many trees we are tapping. All I can go by is how much cash is sitting on the table once a month when we sell. As last season was really our first year of tapping and the trees need time to lean to give up their latex. I know that the better trees produced around 5 kilos of RSS last season, how much improvement this year time will tell. You can not work the numbers on a tree 'day, month, kilo etc. You have to do it on a year by year base and remove your costs. Not much use if your trees are super producers and making rubber like it is going out of fashion if you have to pay out more than they earn. Remember you may be on 50 % with your tappers, but they will not be paying half the pickup truck, tractor or rolling machines costs. That's out of your pocket. It all adds up and you need to spend money to make money. At the end of the day you may have lost money.

Some one mentioned why not just hire tappers on a day wage, won't work, to start you would also need to hire grass cutters and people to fertilise and take general care of your plantation. Add to this if you hire a day man and he goes out to tap and the rain starts you will still have to pay him and you will have earned nothing. Last year one month during the rains we got only 5 tapping day, but the tappers went out every night that it wasn't raining just encase it stayed dry. Jim

[scotbeve]

Hi all

been off line for awhile, so have missed a bit . Anyway will toss my 2 bits worth in on a few questions. Yes I am the guy on you tube.

Cup rubber does not fetch the same price as sheet, dry cup is roughly half the price of dry sheet. Thais do cup because it is easy, less work and no need for machines and smokers, A Thai farmer can tap his trees go back to sleep, tend his rice or what ever and leave the rubber in the cup. When the cup is full he just throws it on the ground to let it dry. Then one day he will go pick it up and sell.

The income question, don't know how many times over the years this has been covered and I don't have an answer, I have over the years turned somewhat Thai and have long given up on keeping numbers and figures. I don;t even know how many trees we are tapping. All I can go by is how much cash is sitting on the table once a month when we sell. As last season was really our first year of tapping and the trees need time to lean to give up their latex. I know that the better trees produced around 5 kilos of RSS last season, how much improvement this year time will tell. You can not work the numbers on a tree 'day, month, kilo etc. You have to do it on a year by year base and remove your costs. Not much use if your trees are super producers and making rubber like it is going out of fashion if you have to pay out more than they earn. Remember you may be on 50 % with your tappers, but they will not be paying half the pickup truck, tractor or rolling machines costs. That's out of your pocket. It all adds up and you need to spend money to make money. At the end of the day you may have lost money.

Some one mentioned why not just hire tappers on a day wage, won't work, to start you would also need to hire grass cutters and people to fertilise and take general care of your plantation. Add to this if you hire a day man and he goes out to tap and the rain starts you will still have to pay him and you will have earned nothing. Last year one month during the rains we got only 5 tapping day, but the tappers went out every night that it wasn't raining just encase it stayed dry. Jim

Jim,

Like most family businesses in the LOS, one picks the most trustworthy member (yes, folks - there are some indeed...) and puts him / her in charge of a "project" - especially when the owner is in "remote" mode. I look at it as Jim does. Every different plantation will be just that - different numbers. An annual nett profit is the only way to look at it. We can estimate all we want or use numbers from producing rubber plantations for a VERY ROUGH figure. But in the end, price fluctuations, weather, and plantation maintenance will dictate you nett result. Another point I would like to make is that just growing one product will get one in trouble as 10's of thousands of Thai farmers have been in the past. Be diversified - we have 5 products, one being rubber which is only costing us money at the moment... but the other 4 products go up n' down as markets dictate.

[chang35baht]

Cup lump 69 baht/kilo yesterday in Chiang Rai.

[scotbeve]

Cup lump 69 baht/kilo yesterday in Chiang Rai.

Thanks Chang! Any word on USS prices in CR?

BTW - Would you happen to know the most recent news about the Chiang Saen "collection point" of rubber for export " to the north"? My S - I - L is involved with the "co-op" for the north at the Amphur level and so far, everything sounds upbeat....

[chang35baht]

Cup lump 69 baht/kilo yesterday in Chiang Rai.

Thanks Chang! Any word on USS prices in CR?

BTW - Would you happen to know the most recent news about the Chiang Saen "collection point" of rubber for export " to the north"? My S - I - L is involved with the "co-op" for the north at the Amphur level and so far, everything sounds upbeat....

Not made USS yet as I am in the process of making the workshed on the farm at this moment. Should be finished in the next few days. So at the moment we are just content to make cup lump. Adding the thickening agent just in case it rains and washes it away.

Will start to make sheets in Sept/Oct after rain season, unless we get lucky with the weather and can collect the latex wet.

If I have any other info I will post as it comes in.

Regards,

C35B.

PS, THIS IS OUR FIRST TAPPING SEASON.

[jamescollister]

Cup lump 69 baht/kilo yesterday in Chiang Rai.

Just sold some cup rubber to a drive by buyer, 75 Baht wet weight. Dry cup 80 to 85 Baht a kilo. I know that most people are at the mersey of the local middlemen, but you can shop around for a better price and it makes it worth it even if you have to drive and deliver. If there are any people in my area [ Emerald Traiangle Lao Cambodia border] selling cup and want to make more selling liquid latex PM me. Jim

[scotbeve]

Cup lump 69 baht/kilo yesterday in Chiang Rai.

Thanks Chang! Any word on USS prices in CR?

BTW - Would you happen to know the most recent news about the Chiang Saen "collection point" of rubber for export " to the north"? My S - I - L is involved with the "co-op" for the north at the Amphur level and so far, everything sounds upbeat....

Not made USS yet as I am in the process of making the workshed on the farm at this moment. Should be finished in the next few days. So at the moment we are just content to make cup lump. Adding the thickening agent just in case it rains and washes it away.

Will start to make sheets in Sept/Oct after rain season, unless we get lucky with the weather and can collect the latex wet.

If I have any other info I will post as it comes in.

Regards,

C35B.

PS, THIS IS OUR FIRST TAPPING SEASON.

Wishing you and yours all the best!

It will be interesting to see what the co-operative in the north does - strangely enough based in either Sukhothai or Pitsanoluk (due to the number of plantations there). Hopefully the direct route overland to China will be a good deal!

Regards,

Scott B.

[scotbeve]

Cup lump 69 baht/kilo yesterday in Chiang Rai.

Just sold some cup rubber to a drive by buyer, 75 Baht wet weight. Dry cup 80 to 85 Baht a kilo. I know that most people are at the mersey of the local middlemen, but you can shop around for a better price and it makes it worth it even if you have to drive and deliver. If there are any people in my area [ Emerald Traiangle Lao Cambodia border] selling cup and want to make more selling liquid latex PM me. Jim

Jim,

That's a decent price mate! Any thoughts of the growers over your way of going to the (private) co-op as in above reply?

[Bosse137]

James,I have never seen anybody,when the cup is full,just toss the content to the ground and "let it dry". On the contrary,here everybody do their best to keep it as wet as possible,either by putting it back into the cup after given chemikals to the latest latex,or by keeping it in sacks in water. Wether that works or not,I am not sure,but nobody leave anything to dry willingly.In my district does nobody buy dry cup lump (or whatever it is called).There is an auktion and the highest bidder buys the whole lot.Happens every week,and works fine.More than 20000kg each time.More later in the season.Another thing:why so much talk about taking care of weed and giving fertiliser? A couple of times each season,no big deal,and anybody can do that.In my case,we,my wife and I,take care of it ourselves....

[jamescollister]

Cup lump 69 baht/kilo yesterday in Chiang Rai.

Just sold some cup rubber to a drive by buyer, 75 Baht wet weight. Dry cup 80 to 85 Baht a kilo. I know that most people are at the mersey of the local middlemen, but you can shop around for a better price and it makes it worth it even if you have to drive and deliver. If there are any people in my area [ Emerald Traiangle Lao Cambodia border] selling cup and want to make more selling liquid latex PM me. Jim

Jim,

That's a decent price mate! Any thoughts of the growers over your way of going to the (private) co-op as in above reply?

Getting people to change or try anything new is like pulling teeth. I have been trying to get the cup rubber guys to sell liquid to me for 3 years, but at the mention of percentages they mostly run and hide. maybe in time, but I won;t ho;d my breath. Jim

[tothemark]

WHY?

For the added extra work and equipment needed, whyare farmers making cup rubber when they could double their income by making sheets?

Clive

I can understand your disbelief Clive, been there myself in the early stages, but then common sense doesnt always necessarily prevail, no matter what country your in. Its a simple case of cash flow and investment. They havent got the seed money to pay for the equipment needed for matts, they need a pay packet at least weekly and cannot wait till the end of the month and lastly education -lack of it - to quickly understand the difference in returns. Jim refers to it as reluctance to change, which basically sums it up. It seems though that they are not alone :

The answer to why farmers go on with cup-rubber for about half the price is,that making sheets takes away appr.half the weight,which means,the finalrevenu will be the same,but making sheets takes a lot of more work plus the problem with storing them.

Im sorry but this is a common locals misconception and im surprised that you agree with this village talk. There is a loss of "liquid" when producing matts from juice, BUT it is NOT 50%. Just ask Jim, why do you think he is buying liquid latex to make into matts for goodness sake ! You should work on between 10-20% loss of content over the preparation stage, the loss is more significant the younger the tree.Latex is measured by its DRC (dry rubber content) hence the older the tree the greater the DRC, better returns and lower "liquid" loss when converting into matts.

Anyone who isnt doing matts that can afford the investment, the time and "wait" for the money is losing the potential of making significantly more money by just doing cup rubber.

On Friday we obtained 140bht per kilo for matts (non smoked) whilst cup rubber (dry) was 85bht a kilo.

Cup rubber does not fetch the same price as sheet, dry cup is roughly half the price of dry sheet. Thais do cup because it is easy, less work and no need for machines and smokers, A Thai farmer can tap his trees go back to sleep, tend his rice orwhat ever and leave the rubber in the cup. Jim

Thanks for confirming that Jim, it felt like i was in the corner on my own !

[Bosse137]

WHY?

For the added extra work and equipment needed, whyare farmers making cup rubber when they could double their income by making sheets?

Clive

I can understand your disbelief Clive, been there myself in the early stages, but then common sense doesnt always necessarily prevail, no matter what country your in. Its a simple case of cash flow and investment. They havent got the seed money to pay for the equipment needed for matts, they need a pay packet at least weekly and cannot wait till the end of the month and lastly education -lack of it - to quickly understand the difference in returns. Jim refers to it as reluctance to change, which basically sums it up. It seems though that they are not alone :

The answer to why farmers go on with cup-rubber for about half the price is,that making sheets takes away appr.half the weight,which means,the finalrevenu will be the same,but making sheets takes a lot of more work plus the problem with storing them.

Im sorry but this is a common locals misconception and im surprised that you agree with this village talk. There is a loss of "liquid" when producing matts from juice, BUT it is NOT 50%. Just ask Jim, why do you think he is buying liquid latex to make into matts for goodness sake ! You should work on between 10-20% loss of content over the preparation stage, the loss is more significant the younger the tree.Latex is measured by its DRC (dry rubber content) hence the older the tree the greater the DRC, better returns and lower "liquid" loss when converting into matts.

Anyone who isnt doing matts that can afford the investment, the time and "wait" for the money is losing the potential of making significantly more money by just doing cup rubber.

On Friday we obtained 140bht per kilo for matts (non smoked) whilst cup rubber (dry) was 85bht a kilo.

Cup rubber does not fetch the same price as sheet, dry cup is roughly half the price of dry sheet. Thais do cup because it is easy, less work and no need for machines and smokers, A Thai farmer can tap his trees go back to sleep, tend his rice orwhat ever and leave the rubber in the cup. Jim

Thanks for confirming that Jim, it felt like i was in the corner on my own !

Well,thanks for your input.I have personally worked with this for years,and my experience,not "village talk" has shown me,that you get about the same return,wether you make matts or cup lump,due to the weight difference.Obviously,almost all others have made the same observation,cause almost nobody make matts.First;people do not find it difficult to change habbits.Proof:they changed it from making matts to cup lump!! And they do have the equipment already! About can`t afford to wait;if you saw how much money they make every month,you would understand,that they certainly can afford to wait.As they did before,when we could wait for months for the price to rise!!And as some still do,in the hope of rising prices.Although they loose weight in the wait,keeping the matts warm to avoid mögel.And I can assure you,nobody`s lazy!!Why James want to buy latex to make matts,I do not know. Guess,that if he pays a rather low price for the latex,then he can make a good profit.But obviously,people are not that lazy,to make it easier for them selves but for a lower income...Did you ever thought of that.?Anyway,to make sure I am not wrong,perhaps I will dust of the old equipment and check again.If so,i am not too proud to admit it.

[Bosse137]

Oh,I forgot to mention;since it seems that most of you guys pay people to do the work,lazy or not lazy doesn`t come into it.Especially when people demand to get the same percentage as they did before,you can demand,that they also do the same work as before,that is,making matts!! It will be easier today anyway,since we now have a machine which take care of the part of the work,where people before must use their feet and mangle the rubber in order to fit intothe first machine...

[jamescollister]

Hi all

Lets see if we can sort out this confusion on liquid, cup,sun dried and RSS.

Now when I say this is how it is done, I mean this is how we buy rubber and I am no different than the private or government buyers.

Farmer Joe rocks up with 100 kilos of RSS [grade 1,2 or 3 ] that days price is 150 Baht a kilo. He gets 15000 Baht.

Next farmer comes with 100 kilos of sun dried. Now sun dried will have a water content. So if we say todays price for sun dried is 145 Baht a kilo, the farmer would get 14500 Baht, but the water content will be deducted. For esay of maths we will say that the sun dried rubber has a 10% water content, Meaning that the Dry Rubber Content is really only 90 kilos. So he gets 90 times 145 Baht or 13050 Baht.

Our next seller arrives with 100 kilos of dry cup rubber. For the sake of arguement it has no water content, which will never happen. Todays cup rubber price is 80 Baht a kilo. Farmer gets 80 Baht times 100 or 8000 baht.

In comes the wet cup rubber man with 100 kilos of wet rubber. This rubber is deemed to contain 20 % water, so his DRC is 80 kilos. Ergo 80 kilos times 80 Baht being 6400 Baht.

Our last seller for the day arrives with barrals of liquid latex. We test the liquid for rubber content and low and behold he has 100 kilos of rubber in the liquid. We will pay him at least 20 Baht more per kilo than the dry cup price. On this day that means 100 Baht a kilo or 10000 Baht;

Now that really is it in a nut shell. Jim

[tothemark]

Hi all

Lets see if we can sort out this confusion on liquid, cup,sun dried and RSS.

Now when I say this is how it is done, I mean this is how we buy rubber and I am no different than the private or government buyers.

Farmer Joe rocks up with 100 kilos of RSS [grade 1,2 or 3 ] that days price is 150 Baht a kilo. He gets 15000 Baht.

Next farmer comes with 100 kilos of sun dried. Now sun dried will have a water content. So if we say todays price for sun dried is 145 Baht a kilo, the farmer would get 14500 Baht, but the water content will be deducted. For esay of maths we will say that the sun dried rubber has a 10% water content, Meaning that the Dry Rubber Content is really only 90 kilos. So he gets 90 times 145 Baht or 13050 Baht.

Our next seller arrives with 100 kilos of dry cup rubber. For the sake of arguement it has no water content, which will never happen. Todays cup rubber price is 80 Baht a kilo. Farmer gets 80 Baht times 100 or 8000 baht.

In comes the wet cup rubber man with 100 kilos of wet rubber. This rubber is deemed to contain 20 % water, so his DRC is 80 kilos. Ergo 80 kilos times 80 Baht being 6400 Baht.

Our last seller for the day arrives with barrals of liquid latex. We test the liquid for rubber content and low and behold he has 100 kilos of rubber in the liquid. We will pay him at least 20 Baht more per kilo than the dry cup price. On this day that means 100 Baht a kilo or 10000 Baht;

Now that really is it in a nut shell. Jim

Jim, thanks for setting that out.

The question that Clive and Bosse137 are putting forward is that prior to Farmer Joe arriving at the market, he has tapped his trees and has 100 kilos of liquid and he says,"hey I can sell this for 100bht a kilo as juice or I can turn it into matts for 140bht a kilo".

But If he turns it into mats Farmer Joe asks himself "Will I get 100 kilos of matts from 100 kilos of liquid ? Well,the answer is yes and no ! Your last seller has pure latex so the answer is yes. For others their liquid may have a water content but it should never exceed 20% which would be deducted at the gate anyway,irrespective as to whether its cup rubber or latex.

This "village talk" (and im not getting at you Bosse, it is purely a difference of opinion that i have had with many Thais and it rankles me still ) and this is my opinion only, i think stems from the fact that many have tried mats when their rubber is young,when the moisture content is at its highest and therefore the production loss is at its greatest.They also compare the months return on mats with previous months cup rubber and as no month is the same it will produce anomalies.

My advice and the one that I follow myself, that in the first two years of tapping do cup rubber, after which you should do matts as the DRC (dry rubber content) increases.

[Bosse137]

Hi all

Lets see if we can sort out this confusion on liquid, cup,sun dried and RSS.

Now when I say this is how it is done, I mean this is how we buy rubber and I am no different than the private or government buyers.

Farmer Joe rocks up with 100 kilos of RSS [grade 1,2 or 3 ] that days price is 150 Baht a kilo. He gets 15000 Baht.

Next farmer comes with 100 kilos of sun dried. Now sun dried will have a water content. So if we say todays price for sun dried is 145 Baht a kilo, the farmer would get 14500 Baht, but the water content will be deducted. For esay of maths we will say that the sun dried rubber has a 10% water content, Meaning that the Dry Rubber Content is really only 90 kilos. So he gets 90 times 145 Baht or 13050 Baht.

Our next seller arrives with 100 kilos of dry cup rubber. For the sake of arguement it has no water content, which will never happen. Todays cup rubber price is 80 Baht a kilo. Farmer gets 80 Baht times 100 or 8000 baht.

In comes the wet cup rubber man with 100 kilos of wet rubber. This rubber is deemed to contain 20 % water, so his DRC is 80 kilos. Ergo 80 kilos times 80 Baht being 6400 Baht.

Our last seller for the day arrives with barrals of liquid latex. We test the liquid for rubber content and low and behold he has 100 kilos of rubber in the liquid. We will pay him at least 20 Baht more per kilo than the dry cup price. On this day that means 100 Baht a kilo or 10000 Baht;

Now that really is it in a nut shell. Jim

Please James,it is not that simple!! Of course,if you say,that everyone comes with 100 kg,your maths are correct,mainly.But you can not start with the final product,you must start with what the farmer brings home from the trees!!! If he brings home 100 kg and make matts,he will have apr.1-1.2 kg matt from every 4kg latex,that amounts to between 20 to 25 kg to sell,x 150 Baht,3000-3750 total.If he sell it as cup lump,he will have about 80 kgx80 Baht,6400Baht!! At least in my village...I actually put the collected rubber in sacks and sell it the day after.Over night it looses about 20 % in weight,which leaves me with 80 kg,for which I am paid,last time,75.90 baht.The price of matts that day,I do not know,but I am sure,it did not reach 150 Baht,as in our example.So,the facts remains,in my district I get more money for less work.If you do not believe it,come and see for your self!!

[Bosse137]

Hi tothemark!Guess you seen my reply to James.Of course,in my example,to be fair,I loose some weight already in the cups,depending on how "clean" the latex is.So let us say,that in reality I loose up to a total of 50 %,it still leaves me with the doubble amount of kg to sell,to a price,that is more than doubble the price of matts.(if I loose that much,I would also loose a lot,making the matts from the same harvest)And by the way,if I wanted to make mats,I would have to pay someone to do it,unless I do it my self,which also comes at a price in a way.Plus the work to take care of it till it is ready to be sold.But perhaps different districts have different ways to deal with these things,here we never talk about reducing anything from our (really)wet cup lump.

[jamescollister]

Hi all

Lets see if we can sort out this confusion on liquid, cup,sun dried and RSS.

Now when I say this is how it is done, I mean this is how we buy rubber and I am no different than the private or government buyers.

Farmer Joe rocks up with 100 kilos of RSS [grade 1,2 or 3 ] that days price is 150 Baht a kilo. He gets 15000 Baht.

Next farmer comes with 100 kilos of sun dried. Now sun dried will have a water content. So if we say todays price for sun dried is 145 Baht a kilo, the farmer would get 14500 Baht, but the water content will be deducted. For esay of maths we will say that the sun dried rubber has a 10% water content, Meaning that the Dry Rubber Content is really only 90 kilos. So he gets 90 times 145 Baht or 13050 Baht.

Our next seller arrives with 100 kilos of dry cup rubber. For the sake of arguement it has no water content, which will never happen. Todays cup rubber price is 80 Baht a kilo. Farmer gets 80 Baht times 100 or 8000 baht.

In comes the wet cup rubber man with 100 kilos of wet rubber. This rubber is deemed to contain 20 % water, so his DRC is 80 kilos. Ergo 80 kilos times 80 Baht being 6400 Baht.

Our last seller for the day arrives with barrals of liquid latex. We test the liquid for rubber content and low and behold he has 100 kilos of rubber in the liquid. We will pay him at least 20 Baht more per kilo than the dry cup price. On this day that means 100 Baht a kilo or 10000 Baht;

Now that really is it in a nut shell. Jim

Please James,it is not that simple!! Of course,if you say,that everyone comes with 100 kg,your maths are correct,mainly.But you can not start with the final product,you must start with what the farmer brings home from the trees!!! If he brings home 100 kg and make matts,he will have apr.1-1.2 kg matt from every 4kg latex,that amounts to between 20 to 25 kg to sell,x 150 Baht,3000-3750 total.If he sell it as cup lump,he will have about 80 kgx80 Baht,6400Baht!! At least in my village...I actually put the collected rubber in sacks and sell it the day after.Over night it looses about 20 % in weight,which leaves me with 80 kg,for which I am paid,last time,75.90 baht.The price of matts that day,I do not know,but I am sure,it did not reach 150 Baht,as in our example.So,the facts remains,in my district I get more money for less work.If you do not believe it,come and see for your self!!

Maybe I am not making this clear enough, The latex flows out of the tree, it has about 35 percent rubber the rest is water. The buyer is buying the rubber not the water, whether the rubber is wet or dry the rubber content is still the same. The rest making mats etc is just a value adding process by making the rubber a higher grade ergo more expensive. Ps where are you, if near me come and have a look, rubber is how I make a living not a hobbie. Jim

[tothemark]

Summing it up (mats) as a value adding process is a good definition, Jim.

Bosse, take a step back for a moment and look at this from a fresh angle.

Get a wet cup rubber ball, jump on it, squeeze it, bash it and mangle it..... Measure the water that comes out, the same weight in water isn'tgoing to come out.

Anyway, If you take cup rubber that's wet to the market they are going to deduct the moisture content.

When your converting the juice that comes out of the tree the DRC in the juice is basically whats going to be bought at the market either in cup lump form or mats.

When your converting it from juice into mats this latex doesn'tget washed away or evaporate, but that's what some locals think. They see all this "juice" from the tree become "smaller juice" in a mat and think they are losing out.

But because they do cup rubber that coagulates into a ball they never see this evaporation process and think they are getting all of the "juice"from the tree in the ball.

Take that step back again and then put yourself in the shoes of the rubber factory owner and ask yourself, would you want to buy water ? They are not out there to subsidise the rubber farmers, so who's being cleverest, the farmer who thinks he is selling watery rubber or the factory owner who's getting rubber cheap as cup rubber

Does anyone else understand this, am I not explain myself correctly ? Pray tell, before I lose any more hair