Rubber Trees

[Bosse137]

Well,James,there is one flaw in your reasoning.If what you says about people buying rubber,and only rubber,were correct,then I would agree with you 100%.But the actual fact is,that they buy rubber as well as water!You can see,how a lot of water flows from the lorry,that has the cup lump loaded on it.And note,that is AFTER they bought it and paid full price on the kilos you had in your sack....Once,I happened to miss the sellingdate and had to keep it for one more week at home.What happened was,that it lost 10% more water.Which proves,that had I sold it at the normal time,I would have been paid for these 10% water as well.Sorry,I do not making this up,it happens like this every week.For me it is more of a hobby,but it does not prevent me to believe what my eyes see.

[Bosse137]

tothemark,just read my answer to James.Believe me,here they DO BUY WATER !!And I do understand about the part that rubber is rubber,that you cant add or take away to/from it.And,if as you say,they take away a lot for the water and calculate how many kilos "real" rubber there is,then of course it would be as the two of you says,I get that.But the thing is,and I do not know why,here they DO NOT do like that! If I were the buyer,I would of course do,but try to believe me,they do not.For reasons unknown to me.And may I add;I am very happy about it!! So let us conclude this discussion with,that what each one of us says is correct IN HIS DISTRICT.

[scotbeve]

Folks,

If it was me as a major rubber buyer, I would be very particular on the moisture content. These major players have probably done this long enough to set the TRA price by coersion!!!.... I've done several agri-businesses over the past 30 yrs. here and found that honesty (gang sin) is, in fact, the best policy. The reason so many (and I'm talking about a good percentage here) lower to mid-level farmers have had a meager life is that they - such as taught by proxy by too many hi-so's - thought that they could cut a few corners and make the easy money. Can't think of a country where farming is "easy money".... I'm going to stick with my plan of selling kee yang for 1.5 yrs. THEN go into mat making (yang pan dip) for "a little" more money (IMHO...)

[Bosse137]

In a final attempt to make it all clear,as James loves to say,and before my hair gets even greyer,I will add this: NOBODY here believes,that you can add rubber to what you collected from the cup.I agree,that sometimes the logic/understanding on the part of Thais,can make you surprised,to put it politely.But in this case,everybody is totally clear over,that what you do,is trying to retain as much WATER as possible,since,as I said many times already,you actually get paid for it, It is wrong,crazy,whatever you want to call it,but,friends,it IS a fact !!!

[tothemark]

Well,James,there is one flaw in your reasoning.If what you says about people buying rubber,and only rubber,were correct,then I would agree with you 100%.But the actual fact is,that they buy rubber as well as water!You can see,how a lot of water flows from the lorry,that has the cup lump loaded on it.And note,that is AFTER they bought it and paid full price on the kilos you had in your sack....Once,I happened to miss the sellingdate and had to keep it for one more week at home.What happened was,that it lost 10% more water.Which proves,that had I sold it at the normal time,I would have been paid for these 10% water as well.Sorry,I do not making this up,it happens like this every week.For me it is more of a hobby,but it does not prevent me to believe what my eyes see.

Hi Bosse, i think what you say here actually part answers it !

When you missed the selling point and had to wait a week, your cup rubber dried out and you lost 10% of its value from the week before. You lost 10% which harks back to my moisture content of 10-20% maximum.

So lets agree on one thing, you are getting an extra 10% by having the water in your cup rubber. But your only getting 80 baht for your rubber, so lets agree to add the 10% water thats in the cup rubber back to the value, so thats 88bht per kilo. Thats still a long way off from the 140kilo for matts.

We can also agree that some markets are paying for cup lump without deducting for the water, but as you have pointed out its only 10%. Just shows how much they are making on the cup lump once they have made it into granulated rubber, which is the same rubber content as mats near as dam_n it.

Can you smell the coffee yet ?

[Bosse137]

tothemark,I you trying to tell me,that after that week,when I kept the cup lump and lost 10%,there were NO MORE WATER left?! When you sell mats,after they been mangled,hanged out in the sun for drying etc,there is almost only pure rubber left. Do not compare that to the content of water in cup lump.I am sure,if I let the lump through a similar process;squising it,mangle it and let it out in the sun to get absolutely dry,I would shrink the weight with at least 50% and that is what we are talking about here.Mmmm.,,incidentally,I smell coffe,my wife just brought me a big cup! Sorry that I can`t share it with you,perhaps sometime in the future,if our ways cross.

[tothemark]

tothemark,I you trying to tell me,that after that week,when I kept the cup lump and lost 10%,there were NO MORE WATER left?! When you sell mats,after they been mangled,hanged out in the sun for drying etc,there is almost only pure rubber left. Do not compare that to the content of water in cup lump.I am sure,if I let the lump through a similar process;squising it,mangle it and let it out in the sun to get absolutely dry,I would shrink the weight with at least 50% and that is what we are talking about here.Mmmm.,,incidentally,I smell coffe,my wife just brought me a big cup! Sorry that I can`t share it with you,perhaps sometime in the future,if our ways cross.

Ha Bosse, Can I have an expresso then - no sugar

Perhaps you would like to do a test, it will only cost you 80 bht..... Keep one of your cup lumps back from the next market run, weigh it when wet. Keep it in the sun and dry store for two weeks till its completely dry then weigh it again for me. ...... What you think to that proposal ?

[kwonitoy]

Can't think of a country where farming is "easy money".... I'm going to stick with my plan of selling kee yang for 1.5 yrs. THEN go into mat making (yang pan dip) for "a little" more money (IMHO...)

Couldn't agree more Scot, I was raised on a Canadian grain farm and I know that ANY farming venture yield's nothing untill you've got the money in your hand.

I'm also going to go with the cup rubber for the first two years and then dip my toes in the matt making.

I've been following the last pages quite closely and learning what I can

We start tapping next week so I'm really looking forward to what we get, maybe post some numbers, but don't expect to see grams/per tree/per tapping/excel spreadsheet etc etc

Ken

[jamescollister]

In a final attempt to make it all clear,as James loves to say,and before my hair gets even greyer,I will add this: NOBODY here believes,that you can add rubber to what you collected from the cup.I agree,that sometimes the logic/understanding on the part of Thais,can make you surprised,to put it politely.But in this case,everybody is totally clear over,that what you do,is trying to retain as much WATER as possible,since,as I said many times already,you actually get paid for it, It is wrong,crazy,whatever you want to call it,but,friends,it IS a fact !!!

Bosse how about this get your last sales docket, divide the gross wet rubber weight by the money you got in your pocket. Now compare it to the dry cup price, Jim

[Bosse137]

tothemark,I you trying to tell me,that after that week,when I kept the cup lump and lost 10%,there were NO MORE WATER left?! When you sell mats,after they been mangled,hanged out in the sun for drying etc,there is almost only pure rubber left. Do not compare that to the content of water in cup lump.I am sure,if I let the lump through a similar process;squising it,mangle it and let it out in the sun to get absolutely dry,I would shrink the weight with at least 50% and that is what we are talking about here.Mmmm.,,incidentally,I smell coffe,my wife just brought me a big cup! Sorry that I can`t share it with you,perhaps sometime in the future,if our ways cross.

Ha Bosse, Can I have an expresso then - no sugar

Perhaps you would like to do a test, it will only cost you 80 bht..... Keep one of your cup lumps back from the next market run, weigh it when wet. Keep it in the sun and dry store for two weeks till its completely dry then weigh it again for me. ...... What you think to that proposal ?

I`ll have the expresso in mind,if we ever meet! Actually,what you propose,I have already planned to do!Funny,that! If,to my surprise,it turns out that I am wrong,and if there is a significant difference in favour of making mats,then I will have to consider switching to doing that.And if the cost of paying somebody for it does not eat it up the percieved profit.But that,of course,is a bit beside the point,just wanted to point to one of the obstacles...

[scotbeve]

Can't think of a country where farming is "easy money".... I'm going to stick with my plan of selling kee yang for 1.5 yrs. THEN go into mat making (yang pan dip) for "a little" more money (IMHO...)

Couldn't agree more Scot, I was raised on a Canadian grain farm and I know that ANY farming venture yield's nothing untill you've got the money in your hand.

I'm also going to go with the cup rubber for the first two years and then dip my toes in the matt making.

I've been following the last pages quite closely and learning what I can

We start tapping next week so I'm really looking forward to what we get, maybe post some numbers, but don't expect to see grams/per tree/per tapping/excel spreadsheet etc etc

Ken

Thanks Ken,

Jeesh! A grain farm? That's up and down all the time....

A simple philosophy here (and should be applied elsewhere as well...) - my own saying BTW - Hope for the best, expect the worst, and take whatcha' get!!

Let us all know especially if it's on an excel spreadsheet!

BR,

Scott

[Bosse137]

Hi again! Perhaps I shouldn`t prelong this debate,but there is still one thing that needs clearing up.You all seem to agreed amongst you,that "rubber is rubber" and "what you get paid for is the rubber,not the water" and " it is the process of doing mats,that adds to the value".So,then,why are you also saying,that inthe first 2-3 years,when the watercontent is higher than in later years,you will do cup lump??!! Really,why? Do you,in spite of everything,think,that you will be paid for the water....? If not,why is it motivated to not "add value" by making mats.? To me the logic is,that if making mats is the way to get most profit,well,then it has nothing to do with whether the watercontent is higher or lower,"rubber is rubber,thats what you get paid for",remember! Is the answer,perhaps,that in some cases the smart buyers are not smart,(when it is about liquid from young trees),and actually pay for water.Actually,I do not care one way or another,but it disturbes me,when some professionals give lectures,which seemingly,at least,not add up!

[tothemark]

Hi again! Perhaps I shouldn`t prelong this debate,but there is still one thing that needs clearing up.You all seem to agreed amongst you,that "rubber is rubber" and "what you get paid for is the rubber,not the water" and " it is the process of doing mats,that adds to the value".So,then,why are you also saying,that inthe first 2-3 years,when the watercontent is higher than in later years,you will do cup lump??!! Really,why? Do you,in spite of everything,think,that you will be paid for the water....? If not,why is it motivated to not "add value" by making mats.? To me the logic is,that if making mats is the way to get most profit,well,then it has nothing to do with whether the watercontent is higher or lower,"rubber is rubber,thats what you get paid for",remember! Is the answer,perhaps,that in some cases the smart buyers are not smart,(when it is about liquid from young trees),and actually pay for water.Actually,I do not care one way or another,but it disturbes me,when some professionals give lectures,which seemingly,at least,not add up!

Bosse, that's an easy question.

In the early years of a rubber tree the latex is more susceptible to absorbing moisture due to its lower DRC, therefore the younger rubber latex has a higher moisture figure than more developed rubber. As the rubber tree gets older, the DRC (dry rubber content) in the latex increases, effectively reducing the ability of the latex to absorb moisture.Meaning kilo for kilo, the more that comes out of the older tree the more you end up keeping/selling.

DRC (rubber) does not absorb water.....

[Bosse137]

Hi again! Perhaps I shouldn`t prelong this debate,but there is still one thing that needs clearing up.You all seem to agreed amongst you,that "rubber is rubber" and "what you get paid for is the rubber,not the water" and " it is the process of doing mats,that adds to the value".So,then,why are you also saying,that inthe first 2-3 years,when the watercontent is higher than in later years,you will do cup lump??!! Really,why? Do you,in spite of everything,think,that you will be paid for the water....? If not,why is it motivated to not "add value" by making mats.? To me the logic is,that if making mats is the way to get most profit,well,then it has nothing to do with whether the watercontent is higher or lower,"rubber is rubber,thats what you get paid for",remember! Is the answer,perhaps,that in some cases the smart buyers are not smart,(when it is about liquid from young trees),and actually pay for water.Actually,I do not care one way or another,but it disturbes me,when some professionals give lectures,which seemingly,at least,not add up!

Bosse, that's an easy question.

In the early years of a rubber tree the latex is more susceptible to absorbing moisture due to its lower DRC, therefore the younger rubber latex has a higher moisture figure than more developed rubber. As the rubber tree gets older, the DRC (dry rubber content) in the latex increases, effectively reducing the ability of the latex to absorb moisture.Meaning kilo for kilo, the more that comes out of the older tree the more you end up keeping/selling.

DRC (rubber) does not absorb water.....

Guess you missunderstod my qestion.I know about that the latex from younger trees absorb s more moisture.My question was,why do you not make mats,since you all claim,that you can not sell water.If you can only sell the rubber,then there is no reason to not to make mats,regardless of how much (or little) water the latex holds in the beginning of the process,right.My conclusion is,that you actually think,that you will,at least partly,be paid also for the water.I remember James mentioning in a post,that he sold cup rubber to a passer bye agent,something, in the light of his later posts, surprises me,since he so warmly advocates making mats...

[tothemark]

Guess you missunderstod my qestion.I know about that the latex from younger trees absorb s more moisture.My question was,why do you not make mats,since you all claim,that you can not sell water.If you can only sell the rubber,then there is no reason to not to make mats,regardless of how much (or little) water the latex holds in the beginning of the process,right.My conclusion is,that you actually think,that you will,at least partly,be paid also for the water.I remember James mentioning in a post,that he sold cup rubber to a passer bye agent,something, in the light of his later posts, surprises me,since he so warmly advocates making mats...

Ok, lets delve even deeper.

We agree that the latex in younger trees (7-9 years) absorbs more water , this is determined by its low DRC (dry rubber content).

When the DRC increases, due to it having a lower density to water, it will displace a weight equal to its own weight.

So the answer to your question is :

Where there is a propensity to have the maximum amount of water in the latex, then the difference in returns between cup rubber and mats will be at its lowest. Which is why you do cup rubber in the early years, the difference between cup rubber and mats then being, say, imo, between 20-40%. If you want to call that selling water, be my guest.

As the tree ages the DRC increases and more moisture is therefore displaced. Archimedes law of buoyancy.

This in turn widens the returns between cup rubber and mats to a value greater, imo, well in excess of 40%.

Why is this ? Because the cup rubber is reducing its density by increasing its DRC, which in turn reduces its ability to absorb the heavier water. i.e. making the weight of cup rubber closer to that of a mat, but only obtaining half the returns.

DRC is one of the major reasons for the difference in values between cup and mats, but, not the only one.

Bosse can you tell me how old your trees are ?

Any more questions and I am going to have to get some more ram for my brain !

[David006]

I add my congrats to you Jim on your humorous and informative primer...

..wifey and in laws have just this week opened up another 600+ trees and they seem to have started at the 800 to one metre level on 45+ cm trees...growth rate seems all over the map in some rows unfortunately...(we bought this part of the farm with these trees at about 3yo).

Wifey et al tapped 3 on 1 off on the mature trees on another part of the farm..now doing the same on new ones.

On the subject of weed control , I read on an Indian state website that clear cut and removal of all weeds/grass is not recommended ( natural moisture retention seemed to be the factor along with erosion)...during all our floods down here thousands of trees on flat land simply fell over due to ground turning to treacle on land with little or no ground cover.

We have sprayed Glyphosphate to get rid of the brush type weeds and now mostly have just that vicious leg cutting grass which we cut every three months or so...seems to grow up behind you as you walk the line though...all that grass mulch has got to be good for the trees methinks. Interestingly some areas just grow some low pretty purple flowered weeds which turn your hands black after you pull a rai or so..lol

Time now to throw some more baht on the ground in the form of fertiliser I guess....

May all your cups runneth over..

cheers

david

The Purple flowered weeds are Butterfly Pea and the flowers are traditionally used by Thai's to combat Hairloss. You crush the flowers into a mulch and rub it on your head.My wifes dad had a problem about 20 years ago and went around with it on his head all the time. He now has a good head of hair, maybe you can sell them to baldies :-)

hmm got me looking for hairs on the palms of my hands now.....! not done that since the threats from mum when I was a teenager...lol

[kwonitoy]

Guess you missunderstod my qestion.I know about that the latex from younger trees absorb s more moisture.My question was,why do you not make mats,since you all claim,that you can not sell water.If you can only sell the rubber,then there is no reason to not to make mats,regardless of how much (or little) water the latex holds in the beginning of the process,right.My conclusion is,that you actually think,that you will,at least partly,be paid also for the water.I remember James mentioning in a post,that he sold cup rubber to a passer bye agent,something, in the light of his later posts, surprises me,since he so warmly advocates making mats...

Ok, lets delve even deeper.

We agree that the latex in younger trees (7-9 years) absorbs more water , this is determined by its low DRC (dry rubber content).

When the DRC increases, due to it having a lower density to water, it will displace a weight equal to its own weight.

So the answer to your question is :

Where there is a propensity to have the maximum amount of water in the latex, then the difference in returns between cup rubber and mats will be at its lowest. Which is why you do cup rubber in the early years, the difference between cup rubber and mats then being, say, imo, between 20-40%. If you want to call that selling water, be my guest.

As the tree ages the DRC increases and more moisture is therefore displaced. Archimedes law of buoyancy.

This in turn widens the returns between cup rubber and mats to a value greater, imo, well in excess of 40%.

Why is this ? Because the cup rubber is reducing its density by increasing its DRC, which in turn reduces its ability to absorb the heavier water. i.e. making the weight of cup rubber closer to that of a mat, but only obtaining half the returns.

DRC is one of the major reasons for the difference in values between cup and mats, but, not the only one.

Bosse can you tell me how old your trees are ?

Any more questions and I am going to have to get some more ram for my brain ![/colo

It's good to read the different slants on the subject of to mat or not to mat

TTM,

The way I understand your post, the trees in the first two years of tapping are producing too watery of a latex to bother with rendering it down, too much volume of water to rubber.

Older trees are basically doing some of the work for you by producing a higher concentration of DRC as well as producing more latex as they get larger.

Ken

[Bosse137]

Hi tothemark!! Thanks for taking time to explain your stans! It sounds all very convincing,except that "you are only paid for the rubber,not the water" as said before.Now you admit,that in some cases,you can be paid for the water..Let us end this discussion before we bore our selves and all others to death..I will do lika this: I will collect latex from the latest cut,keep it in a container.Then I will divide it in two equal parts(this way you have exactly the same "quality" of liquid).TThereafter,you guessed it,I will make mats of one part and the other I will put back in the cups,and after 4-5 days collect it,put it in a sack over night,take it out the next day and check the weight.As we do,when we sell.I note the weight,wait till the mats are dry,and check their weight.Finally,I just check the respective price and do the math.Now,I discribed in detail,in the hope that somebody else also will do the experiment,perhaps you..? I am not a stubborn person,and if it turns out,that I am wrong,I am nothing but glad,that I found out how to make more money.If I care..So,never mind about getting more ram for your brain,I am sure you have more than enough( the real content,not water,he,he) Just sit back,enjoy a cup of expresso and await the outcome!

[jamescollister]

Why make everything so complex. Bosse get your last sales docket and tell us how much they paid. Last weeks Government buying price in Buntharik was 85 Baht a kilo dry weight. Now Bosse if you sell your wet rubber and they give you 85 Baht a kilo then they are buying water, if you get less they are not. It makes no difference how the buyer plays the numbers and makes you and others believe he is an idiot buying water, if you didn;t get 85 Baht a kilo he deducting water content. So please tell us how much you were paid.

Tothmark agian getting all technical and confusing. You can make sheet as soon as your trees produce enough usable latex to warrent the expense. When making sheet you add 2 litres of water to 3 letres of latex, so water content makes no difference. In my case 8 weeks after opening new trees they produce usable latex. A Thai planter who has never taken care of his trees may have to wait much longer before he gets enough latex to warrent making sheet.

Have a look at my youtube vid Sarah Jane rubber factory Issan or family run rubber factory Buntharik, it may be easier to understand when you can see the process. Jim PS Bosse the reason I sell cup rubber is that I buy rubber and resell.

[Bosse137]

Why make everything so complex. Bosse get your last sales docket and tell us how much they paid. Last weeks Government buying price in Buntharik was 85 Baht a kilo dry weight. Now Bosse if you sell your wet rubber and they give you 85 Baht a kilo then they are buying water, if you get less they are not. It makes no difference how the buyer plays the numbers and makes you and others believe he is an idiot buying water, if you didn;t get 85 Baht a kilo he deducting water content. So please tell us how much you were paid.

Tothmark agian getting all technical and confusing. You can make sheet as soon as your trees produce enough usable latex to warrent the expense. When making sheet you add 2 litres of water to 3 letres of latex, so water content makes no difference. In my case 8 weeks after opening new trees they produce usable latex. A Thai planter who has never taken care of his trees may have to wait much longer before he gets enough latex to warrent making sheet.

Have a look at my youtube vid Sarah Jane rubber factory Issan or family run rubber factory Buntharik, it may be easier to understand when you can see the process. Jim PS Bosse the reason I sell cup rubber is that I buy rubber and resell.

Well,I was planning to take a 2-3 weeks "paus" in this discussion,awaiting the result of my little experiment,but I will be polite and reply to you,James.It is not that simple,James.Why? Because you do not know,how many more kilos I have,and get paid for,when I sell my wet cup lump!If,for instance,I have 40 % more kilos when I sell it wet,than when I sell it dry,I think you must agree,that even if I get,let say,5-10 Baht less/kilo,I still get much more for my wet cup lump.But as I said to tothemark,if I am mistaken,and perhaps I am,I will be happy to change to making mats,if there is a significant difference in price.If it is just a marginal difference,It is no good idea to pay somebody to do this work,or to loose valuable time this late in my life,doing it my self.A bit beside the point,I know.I live not so far from Chumpae,so it is a bit to go to see you,as you invited me to do in an earlier post.But I like to go on tours with my bicycle,so perhaps I surprise you with a visit..! The same goes for tothemark,if you do not live too far away from here.OK,now I take the paus,let you hear from me,when I have something to tell,bye!

[Boeing757]

With regards to the last few posts, I would like to turn this post around to a subject that perplexes me somewhat, and i am not trying to be smart. I really do not understand. Maybe someone will enlighten me.

I have mentioned that last years average RSS 3 price was about THB100/Kg. (Actually it was THB 116.08)

Tothemark has now revealed that last years average cup rubber price was THB 55/Kg. A fact I can accept completely.

WHY?

For the added extra work and equipment needed, why are farmers making cup rubber when they could double their income by making sheets?

Clive

Well, I really did put the cat amongst the pigeons!

I have read the replies with great interest without having any constructive replies.

I can also see both sides of the Cup - Sheet discussion.

What I really do find hard to believe, despite very persuasive arguments, is that we could be paid for water. It may appear as if we are, if wet Cup generates the same price as dry Lump per Kg.

Probably, however, the Cup Lump price has already been reduced to take this into account when compared with Sheets.

Some of the prices and percentages are too variable for my monkey brain. I would prefer to see some more tangible figures.

It matters not where in the country you are nor at what time. All that is needed is a comparison.

So can someone tell me on any ONE day in any ONE place the following? (at your farm gate)

The price paid for RSS 3, ADS, Latex, Dry Cup and wet Cup.

Unfortunately these prices are meaningless without the DRC of all of the above. That may be more difficult to assess.

Sorry, but these facts are not available to me at the moment.

Clive

[scotbeve]

With regards to the last few posts, I would like to turn this post around to a subject that perplexes me somewhat, and i am not trying to be smart. I really do not understand. Maybe someone will enlighten me.

I have mentioned that last years average RSS 3 price was about THB100/Kg. (Actually it was THB 116.08)

Tothemark has now revealed that last years average cup rubber price was THB 55/Kg. A fact I can accept completely.

WHY?

For the added extra work and equipment needed, why are farmers making cup rubber when they could double their income by making sheets?

Clive

Well, I really did put the cat amongst the pigeons!

I have read the replies with great interest without having any constructive replies.

I can also see both sides of the Cup - Sheet discussion.

What I really do find hard to believe, despite very persuasive arguments, is that we could be paid for water. It may appear as if we are, if wet Cup generates the same price as dry Lump per Kg.

Probably, however, the Cup Lump price has already been reduced to take this into account when compared with Sheets.

Some of the prices and percentages are too variable for my monkey brain. I would prefer to see some more tangible figures.

It matters not where in the country you are nor at what time. All that is needed is a comparison.

So can someone tell me on any ONE day in any ONE place the following? (at your farm gate)

The price paid for RSS 3, ADS, Latex, Dry Cup and wet Cup.

Unfortunately these prices are meaningless without the DRC of all of the above. That may be more difficult to assess.

Sorry, but these facts are not available to me at the moment.

Clive

Clive,

I cannot give you any prices yet as we're not tapping for another year.... BUT, somebody in the upper food chain of rubber buyers certainly will buy water for the same price???? Huh, my business acumen has all the alarms going here.... Are the hierarchy laughing all the way to the bank??? From what I've seen of middlemen in this country for the past 30 yrs. - well.... fill in the blanks here....

[Bosse137]

I have to cut my break short,because perhaps I can give the answer.When I before said that we are paid for water,that would not be exactly correct when you analyse it closer.It is like this and I take an example:Let say you sell 100 kg mats/150 Baht /kg. That amounts to 15000 Baht.Now,if you had sold it as cup lump,you would have 200 kg instead because of the watercontent.The middlemen knows this,of course.That is why they give you only half the price,75 Baht. OK 75 Baht,200kg amounts to 15000 Baht.Ergo,you have the same outcome but with less work! To refer to James,you get paid for the rubber,which is the same in both cases.I have to admit,that I all the time said,that we are paid for the water.This is how I meant it,and the confusion is all my fault! Naturally,the middlemen can not know the exact amount of water,since no tests are ever done,so one has to presume,that sometimes they pay too much,and sometime too little,but that will probably level out in the long run.

[jamescollister]

Hi Clive

If you look at www.rubberthai.com that will give you the daily auction price for RSS and sundried. The price of sun dried is what you should expect to get for your RSS locally. Cup is different story, you need to get the phone numbers of the local buyers and ask what they are paying on the day. Or you sell to the Government buyers. They take your rubber weight it deduct water etc and give you a reciept. At the end of the day the Government looks at the auction and other things and sets the price for the country. If you are near a large rubber factory you may get a Baht or 2 more. If in doubt sell to the Government until you make your own deals. Hope tha's some help Jim.

[jamescollister]

I have to cut my break short,because perhaps I can give the answer.When I before said that we are paid for water,that would not be exactly correct when you analyse it closer.It is like this and I take an example:Let say you sell 100 kg mats/150 Baht /kg. That amounts to 15000 Baht.Now,if you had sold it as cup lump,you would have 200 kg instead because of the watercontent.The middlemen knows this,of course.That is why they give you only half the price,75 Baht. OK 75 Baht,200kg amounts to 15000 Baht.Ergo,you have the same outcome but with less work! To refer to James,you get paid for the rubber,which is the same in both cases.I have to admit,that I all the time said,that we are paid for the water.This is how I meant it,and the confusion is all my fault! Naturally,the middlemen can not know the exact amount of water,since no tests are ever done,so one has to presume,that sometimes they pay too much,and sometime too little,but that will probably level out in the long run.

Ok BosseI give it one more shoot then give up. If you tap a tree the latex that comes out will produce the same weight of rubber whether you make cup or sheet. Using your figures and the price of dry cup is 85 baht a kilo and the buyer deducts 10 baht for water which means he thinks your cup has 10% water or there about. Now subtract that 10% of water from your rubber then you have 180 Kilos of rubber, then do the maths at 150 Baht for sheet. Bye for now on this subject. Jim

[Bosse137]

OK,James,I give it one more try: If they take away 10 Baht,then I get my 75 Baht,as I said.75x200 is15000. Or if you instead say,that they take away 20 kilo and give 85 Baht,that adds up to 85x180 is 15300.....Let us now say,that you mean that they do both things,take away 10 Baht AND 20 kilo,that would give 13500 Baht.Even so,you have the cost for labour,whether you do it yourself or hire sombody.And machines,maintainens,keeping it dry,and so on...The endresult,whether you get 1500 more or not,will be eaten up in the other end.Another thing,that has to be taken into consideration,is that you all the time argue with yourself,shall I sell now or wait for the price to go up? And perhaps it goes down,as it did a couple of months ago,when it was reported on TV about long ques to panic sell sheets.And by the way,the price for cup lump has always been more than half the price for sheets,at least in my district,so there is a margin.And nobody takes away anything after the auktion.But of course,the buyer has already calculated in this,thats why you get only (little more than) half the price.

[tothemark]

Bosse, go take that coffee and come back in two weeks

We now know the figures that you (not me) are working to- you are saying that wet cup lump weighs 2 to 1 over sheets, from the latex produced by the tree. Im happy to wait 2 weeks for you to dry the lump to restart this part of the thread. I cant dry any cup because we do mats, so its all down to you now....

And as for you Clive,you have a lot to answer for

[jamescollister]

Bosse, go take that coffee and come back in two weeks

We now know the figures that you (not me) are working to- you are saying that wet cup lump weighs 2 to 1 over sheets, from the latex produced by the tree. Im happy to wait 2 weeks for you to dry the lump to restart this part of the thread. I cant dry any cup because we do mats, so its all down to you now....

And as for you Clive,you have a lot to answer for

Good idea try it out by drying some cup. Think Bosse you have this water content thing way out of wack. When they make rubber cloves condoms etc they take the liquid latex and spin out the water until it is 60 % rubber, it;s still a liquid nor a solid. You on the other hand seem to think your cup rubber is 50% water, if thet were the case you would be using buckets not bags to carru it. Jim

[Bosse137]

Bosse, go take that coffee and come back in two weeks

We now know the figures that you (not me) are working to- you are saying that wet cup lump weighs 2 to 1 over sheets, from the latex produced by the tree. Im happy to wait 2 weeks for you to dry the lump to restart this part of the thread. I cant dry any cup because we do mats, so its all down to you now....

And as for you Clive,you have a lot to answer for

Good idea try it out by drying some cup. Think Bosse you have this water content thing way out of wack. When they make rubber cloves condoms etc they take the liquid latex and spin out the water until it is 60 % rubber, it;s still a liquid nor a solid. You on the other hand seem to think your cup rubber is 50% water, if thet were the case you would be using buckets not bags to carru it. Jim

For your info,for instance banana is 74% water,orange 87 %. You,youself,James,is roughly 60 % water.Could be more after a night at the local pub..I do not think you have to navigate around in a bucket,do you?!

[chang35baht]

Cup lump 69 baht/kilo yesterday in Chiang Rai.

Thanks Chang! Any word on USS prices in CR?

BTW - Would you happen to know the most recent news about the Chiang Saen "collection point" of rubber for export " to the north"? My S - I - L is involved with the "co-op" for the north at the Amphur level and so far, everything sounds upbeat....

Hi Scott, do you have any more info on this collection point in Chiang Saen. Not too far from me really and am trying to find out where to get the highest price at the moment. If you have a location/address for me I will take a drive up and have a reccie.

Many thanks,

Stuart.