Thai Immigration Tightens Requirements For Retirement Visa Extensions

[tropo]

I've just received my income certification letter from the UK Honorary Consulate in Jompthien, as I have for the last several years. I provided them with the normal evidence of income which, in my case, derives from an occupational pension and also from the UK State Pension. No problem but I notice a subtle, or maybe not so subtle, change in the wording of the letter.

In previous years the wording was, 'Mr. X has shown evidence that he is in receipt of income worth £n on a regular monthly basis.' This year, the wording is, 'Mr. X has stated that he receives a monthly pension of £n.' This sounds a bit like the US / Australia situation.

I suspect from this that Immigration may want to see some additional proof of income. Again, no problem as I have bank statements and can, anyway, provide Immigration with the same evidence that I provided to the Consulate. I guess that I'll find out next week when I front up to get the annual retirement extension.

DM

This current issue has absolutely NOTHING to do with British people or most expat nationalities. Please refer to the OP. Frankly, "nothing happened different or surprising" reports from those OTHER than the targeted nationalities, probably most relevant to AMERICANS is totally off topic to this topic. That could possibly (though very unlikely) change in the case that non-targeted nationalities start not having their embassy letters accepted, warnings about the future, etc.

I know some people want to get involved in the exciting party atmosphere of this thread, but really it is very specific and very limited to specific nationalities. Brits being not one of them. So sorry if that offends but it is the truth.

You may consider this post off topic, but I think it is a very interesting post and welcome on this thread.

It would seem that the British Consulate has decided that they don't wish to be responsible for proving if evidence provided is real or fake. It would seem that they are well on their way to following the US/Australian Consulate system.

[middelman]

It would seem that the British Consulate has decided that they don't wish to be responsible for proving if evidence provided is real or fake. It would seem that they are well on their way to following the US/Australian Consulate system.

So does the Dutch embassy. Today I got a mail stating they do not issue income statements anymore. One has to make his own statement and they just legalise the signature. Immigration checks the income documentation.

The change was made on request of Immigration. Reason: Too much fraud.

[tropo]

It would seem that the British Consulate has decided that they don't wish to be responsible for proving if evidence provided is real or fake. It would seem that they are well on their way to following the US/Australian Consulate system.

So does the Dutch embassy. Today I got a mail stating they do not issue income statements anymore. One has to make his own statement and they just legalise the signature. Immigration checks the income documentation.

The change was made on request of Immigration. Reason: Too much fraud.

Very interesting.

How did the Dutch income letters read before this recent change? I'm just wondering why the Immigration would request the change.

[middelman]

Very interesting.

How did the Dutch income letters read before this recent change? I'm just wondering why the Immigration would request the change.

Before the change was made the Dutch embassy carefully looked over the supporting documents and made the year income calculation, and made the statement.

[Arkady]

20 to 25k thats a bit expensive, will not make one bit of difference 15k seems to rate people i know pay. i stick with non o and have trip out once every 90 days. 65k per month is a rediculas amount to have to show as is 800,000. most counties are crying out for retirees money but not this one.

As I get older I seem to know more and more people living here on retirement visas. Sometimes I hear complaints about the bureaucracy, e.g. when the bank account seasoning requirement was brought in without warning or the insistence on seeing a same day transaction in the bank book, but I have never heard any of them complain that either the 65k or 800k are too much. Most ridiculous of all is the perennial comparison with average Thai unskilled worker earnings, as if foreign retirees are going to sleep on the floor with three or four other people, eat footpath food from plastic bags every day, never use aircon, never drink beer or go to a bar, always travel on non-aircon killer buses, have no access to any healthcare, never travel anywhere etc, etc. It seems that they are attracting plenty of foreign retirees on the current terms and conditions already. So why would they want to drop the limits and open the floodgates to state pensioners barely able to get by at home, even with free healthcare, public transport and other welfare benefits provided to OAPs in farang countries. They are doing a favour to those who can't afford to retire abroad as wells as themselves by sensibly not letting them in, as many would probably burn their bridges and eventually end up destitute and in poor health without the means to get medical care or go home. The farang embassies see destitute tourists every day who have come to Thailand believing it is a third world country that costs next to nothing to live in and consequently run out of money. Lowering the bars on retirement visas would undoubtedly and sadly increase the number of destitute farangs.

[middelman]

But do you want the Thai Immigration to sniff trough your Yearly Statement as I am not a pension but getting income from investments and Interest from abroad ? I don't think so. I trust my Embassy (up too a certain degree of course with this info), but Thai Immigration.. <deleted> NO.

According to the information I got from the embassy it is either that or F.. OFF.

[CRUNCHER]

It would seem that the British Consulate has decided that they don't wish to be responsible for proving if evidence provided is real or fake. It would seem that they are well on their way to following the US/Australian Consulate system.

So does the Dutch embassy. Today I got a mail stating they do not issue income statements anymore. One has to make his own statement and they just legalise the signature. Immigration checks the income documentation.

The change was made on request of Immigration. Reason: Too much fraud.

But do you want the Thai Immigration to sniff trough your Yearly Statement as I am not a pension but getting income from investments and Interest from abroad ? I don't think so. I trust my Embassy (up too a certain degree of course with this info), but Thai Immigration.. <deleted> NO.

I understand your feelings, but reality is that any country is entitled to check the background, including finances, of anyone to whom they grant a visa or extension of stay. This is not just the case in Thailand and in some countries these checks are much more strigent. If you want the visa or extensions of stay you just have to go through the hoops, troublesome as this may be.

In this thread we are talking about checking of income for extensions of stay and the proof required. We have to respect that it is the Thai Goverments right to set the standards they require. It is their country. It would be good, however, to know just what is required.

Remember, visas and extensions of stay are not a right; they are a consession granted by the host country at the discretion of the host. Again, this does not apply only to Thailand; it applies to every country in the World.

[tropo]

Very interesting.

How did the Dutch income letters read before this recent change? I'm just wondering why the Immigration would request the change.

Before the change was made the Dutch embassy carefully looked over the supporting documents and made the year income calculation, and made the statement.

... so that is a significant change. Couple this with the significant change of wording in the British income letter and it would seem that change is in the air.

[jfchandler]

So does the Dutch embassy. Today I got a mail stating they do not issue income statements anymore. One has to make his own statement and they just legalise the signature. Immigration checks the income documentation.

The change was made on request of Immigration. Reason: Too much fraud.

Not sure exactly what your comments above mean....

Are you saying your Consulate no longer uses or provides a standard form for the income letters, and that each person now is supposed to write their own version?

And when you say "they just legalise the signature," what does that mean? It sounds like they're still signing the letter, same as before -- just not vouching for its accuracy.

Lastly, I'd assume, you haven't actually gone to Immigration yet to see that they do, or ask for, in connection with your new kind of income letter...

[middelman]

Not sure exactly what your comments above mean....

Are you saying your Consulate no longer uses or provides a standard form for the income letters, and that each person now is supposed to write their own version?

And when you say "they just legalise the signature," what does that mean? It sounds like they're still signing the letter, same as before -- just not vouching for its accuracy.

Lastly, I'd assume, you haven't actually gone to Immigration yet to see that they do, or ask for, in connection with your new kind of income letter...

That is right, I got my extention last month. But I noticed a change in the procedures on their website, so I asked for some explanation

There is a downloadable form on the website. It is made in Word. you fill it in and go with it to the embassy or consulate in person. They confirm only that you wrote the form. You have to proof to immigration the amount you filled in on the form.

It is quite simple, before the proof your income came from the embassy and now you have to prove it to immigration. I just hope the immigration officers can read chinese, japanese and so on because otherwise there could be a little problem.

http://www.netherlan...292664&type=org

[JimGant]

This current issue has absolutely NOTHING to do with British people or most expat nationalities. Please refer to the OP.... really it is very specific and very limited to specific nationalities. Brits being not one of them.

Bullshite. Part of the subject matter is the possibility that, in the future, we'll see Immigration verifying that you're actually sending and/or spending some of your income in Thailand. That would affect *ALL* nationalities.

What also appears to be shaking out on this thread is .... Thai authorities are growing wary of too many farang bums getting retirement extensions based on fraudulent income data (or at least income data not marrying-up with what is actually being sent/spent in Thailand). America and Oz aside, the word has apparently gone out that the Thais would like further assurance of the soundness of the income statement. Result: Embassies are not in the position of guaranteeing income statement validity. Hence, the Dutch example. Many more to follow, no doubt. Welcome to America. (Can't wait for the first report from the Dutchman handing his self-written income statement to Immigration.)

Can you really see Immigration parsing all those many tongued foreign income statements? I can't. So, expect the requirement to have a bank account, to be used in full, or at least as part of the combo method. With paperwork showing the overseas source of the funding.

And, I can also see ATM receipts acceptable -- along with the bank statement tying in your name and receipts.

[Penkoprod]

It would seem that the British Consulate has decided that they don't wish to be responsible for proving if evidence provided is real or fake. It would seem that they are well on their way to following the US/Australian Consulate system.

So does the Dutch embassy. Today I got a mail stating they do not issue income statements anymore. One has to make his own statement and they just legalise the signature. Immigration checks the income documentation.

The change was made on request of Immigration. Reason: Too much fraud.

I might be having a "blonde moment" here, but doesnt this negate the need for a consulate letter, now

Or are Immigration going to still insist on having one and "randomly" check for proof, i wonder?

Penkoprod

[jfchandler]

That is right, I got my extention last month. But I noticed a change in the procedures on their website, so I asked for some explanation

There is a downloadable form on the website. It is made in Word. you fill it in and go with it to the embassy or consulate in person. They confirm only that you wrote the form. You have to proof to immigration the amount you filled in on the form.

It is quite simple, before the proof your income came from the embassy and now you have to prove it to immigration. I just hope the immigration officers can read chinese, japanese and so on because otherwise there could be a little problem.

OK Middleman, so it sounds like you already have gone to Immigration with the new version of your income letter. What Immigration office did you visit for the extension?

And what exactly did Immigration do with the new income letter, and/or what if anything did they ask to see in connection with it?

[jfchandler]

What also appears to be shaking out on this thread is .... Thai authorities are growing wary of too many farang bums getting retirement extensions based on fraudulent income data (or at least income data not marrying-up with what is actually being sent/spent in Thailand). America and Oz aside, the word has apparently gone out that the Thais would like further assurance of the soundness of the income statement. Result: Embassies are not in the position of guaranteeing income statement validity. Hence, the Dutch example. Many more to follow, no doubt. Welcome to America. (Can't wait for the first report from the Dutchman handing his self-written income statement to Immigration.)

Can you really see Immigration parsing all those many tongued foreign income statements? I can't. So, expect the requirement to have a bank account, to be used in full, or at least as part of the combo method. With paperwork showing the overseas source of the funding.

And, I can also see ATM receipts acceptable -- along with the bank statement tying in your name and receipts.

Jim, I think you may be getting a bit ahead of the known facts here...

The new scenario Middleman described for his country sounds actually very similar to what the U.S. Consulate method has been all along. And keep in mind, we've just had a report above from an American who just got his latest retirement extension by submitting the normal income letter as his basis for financial qualification, with nothing else demanded.

Just because some other countries appear to be changing to the American Consulate approach doesn't automatically mean Thai Immigration is going to start radically changing how they handle these things.

[JimGant]

doesnt this negate the need for a consulate letter, now

It certainly throws a curve.... Immigration certainly felt at least semi-secure about income information with an embassy letterheaded document. At least the American and Oz income letters were an attestation of income -- not just a guarantee of signature.

Holland, by no longer providing letterheaded income statements, has thrown this hot potato back to Immigration -- "if you want income verification, you do it."

Standby for bank accounts.

[middelman]

That is right, I got my extention last month. But I noticed a change in the procedures on their website, so I asked for some explanation

There is a downloadable form on the website. It is made in Word. you fill it in and go with it to the embassy or consulate in person. They confirm only that you wrote the form. You have to proof to immigration the amount you filled in on the form.

It is quite simple, before the proof your income came from the embassy and now you have to prove it to immigration. I just hope the immigration officers can read chinese, japanese and so on because otherwise there could be a little problem.

OK Middleman, so it sounds like you already have gone to Immigration with the new version of your income letter. What Immigration office did you visit for the extension?

And what exactly did Immigration do with the new income letter, and/or what if anything did they ask to see in connection with it?

Not correct, I got my last extention without any problems. But the Dutch embassy informed me that the rules are changed . From now on we have to use the new form and give the Thai immigration proof of our income.

I did not made this up, I just want to share the information that I got.

Use it or dont' use the information. Up to you

[jfchandler]

doesnt this negate the need for a consulate letter, now

Holland, by no longer providing letterheaded income statements, has thrown this hot potato back to Immigration -- "if you want income verification, you do it."

Jim, I saw Middleman saying there now is a downloadable document that his nationality fill in... I didn't see him saying it was no longer "letter-headed."

But more broadly, I haven't heard or seen anything in this entire thread's discussion to even remotely suggest that consulate income letters are being phased out.

[middelman]

[

Jim, I saw Middleman saying there now is a downloadable document that his nationality fill in... I didn't see him saying it was no longer "letter-headed."

But more broadly, I haven't heard or seen anything in this entire thread's discussion to even remotely suggest that consulate income letters are being phased out.

The document I was talking about is attached to reply 612

[jfchandler]

That is right, I got my extention last month. But I noticed a change in the procedures on their website, so I asked for some explanation

Not correct, I got my last extention without any problems. But the Dutch embassy informed me that the rules are changed . From now on we have to use the new form and give the Thai immigration proof of our income.

Middleman, you're misunderstanding my comments... I wasn't challenging what you reported...

I simply said, based on what you wrote above -- I got my extention last month -- it sounded like you had recently been to Thai Immigration with the new income letter to apply for your extension...

If that is correct, I simply asked, what exactly did Thai Immigration do on your visit, and what if any kind of income proof did they request to see?

You only talked about what your Consulate told you... You didn't say anything about how Thai Immigration handled the income issue once you went to Immigration.

[JimGant]

Just because some other countries appear to be changing to the American Consulate approach doesn't automatically mean Thai Immigration is going to start radically changing how they handle these things.

True. However, the bits and pieces we're seeing certainly show that the Thais believe they're getting hoodwinked with farang income reporting.

But, yeah, it could be another 'mai penrai' moment.

But more broadly, I haven't heard or seen anything in this entire thread's discussion to even remotely suggest that consulate income letters are being phased out.

Well, I guess the new Dutch procedure still constitutes a "consulate income letter." As long as Immigration agrees, that's all that matters. And, if they believe fixing the potential charade is just too hard to do, things probably won't change.

I still can't figure if middleman has actually gone to Immigration with this new procedure -- and if so, what was their reaction and did they ask for 'proof of income?"

[jfchandler]

The document I was talking about is attached to reply 612

Thanks for that... I hadn't checked the link previously...

So, it is a letterhead letter from your consulate... And, interestingly, it reads remarkably similar -- though a bit more detailed -- than the American version of such letters....

[JimGant]

Interesting. The Dutch income statement vs. the US income statement:

I also affirm that I receive US$ _________________ every month from the United States Government and/or other sources. I am applying for a Thai visa/ an extension of a current Thai visa and any assistance you can provide in this request will be greatly appreciated

I also affirm that I receive Euro: ________ a year from the

Netherlands Government and/or other sources. I am applying for

a Thai visa/an extension of a current Thai visa and any assistance

you can provide in this request will be greatly appreciated.

So, it's an identical attestation to that of the US, not just a signature guarantee.

I guess we can now add the Dutch to the realm of the Yanks and Ozzies.

[KCPhuket]

Just went to the consular outreach visit in Phuket today by the US Embassy. Got the income letter as usual. The embassy folks have no new information regarding this subject. But it doesn't appear that hard to provide evidence if required. Evidence just has to exist!

[jfchandler]

The chief issue, of course, isn't what form or language the consular income letters take...

But rather, what Thai Immigration does with them once they arrive on their doorstep.

At least up until now, there's been no indication that Thai Immigration has treated applicants any differently based on whether they came from an independently verifying consulate vs. the just sign the affidavit variety.

[Maestro]

So, it's an identical attestation to that of the US, not just a signature guarantee.

"I also affirm"... is an "attestation" made by you who need the letter for the extension of stay, not by the consulate. The Dutch consular official "legalises", ie authenticates your signature. He verifies your identity and with his signature and the consular seal confirms that it is you who signed the letter, nothing more. The US consular official in addition makes you swear an oath that the information in your statement is correct and adds this fact, ie that you swore an oath, to the authentication of your signature.

[Maestro]

...Holland, by no longer providing letterheaded income statements, has thrown this hot potato back to Immigration -- "if you want income verification, you do it."...

I understood the information posted by Middelman differently. It is not the choice of the Dutch consulate to stop income confirmation. It is the Immigration Bureau who asked the consulate to stop it:

So does the Dutch embassy. Today I got a mail stating they do not issue income statements anymore. One has to make his own statement and they just legalise the signature. Immigration checks the income documentation.

The change was made on request of Immigration. Reason: Too much fraud.

[Maestro]

Middelman, just to satisfy my curiosity, did the consulate include the information that immigration requested this change because of too much fraud in the email or did you get it from them subsequently by phone?

The fact that immigration asked the Dutch consulate -- and perhaps also other consulates (the British consulate made the same change recently) -- to stop confirming the income in their own name is big news, I should think, and makes me wonder why immigration did it.

I believe the consulates of many other countries actually never confirmed the income, only authenticated the signature of the person receiving the income.

[jfchandler]

Yes, so it seems there's a change in the format for the income letters being used at some of the consulates, apparently based on Middelman's report, at the request of Thai Immigration.

What's not clear to this point, however, is whether Thai Immigration is going to be doing anything different in the way they handle those income letters when submitted...

The one clear, recent report from an American posted above said "no change" and his letter was accepted without any further requests for documentation...

Further follow-up posts from TV members going for their retirement extensions now, using the monthly income method, would help flesh out the Thai Immigration end of things.

[CRUNCHER]

I would bet a lot that some embassy/consular staff are monitoring this thread. It would be nice to get some comment from them, especially on the reported request from Thai Immigration to change the format of the letters.

Come on guys - look after your nationals!!!

[JimGant]

The fact that immigration asked the Dutch consulate -- and perhaps also other consulates (the British consulate made the same change recently) -- to stop confirming the income in their own name is big news, I should think, and makes me wonder why immigration did it.

I suspect Immigration (via the MFA) asked the foreign embassies to tighten-up their certification processes, to include some rather arduous legal hoops (since Thailand is not a signatory to the Hague convention for apostilles that loosened-up these hoops). The embassies' response (at least, so far, the Dutch example): We don't have the time and resources to do all of this. As such, we'll follow the American example. If you need further verification, it's now up to you.

Yes, so it seems there's a change in the format for the income letters being used at some of the consulates, apparently based on Middelman's report, at the request of Thai Immigration.

I don't think Immigration requested the change in format. That change was a natural fall-out from the request for embassies to further assure their income certification procedures. Understandable why they would not want (or have) the resources to do Immigration's bidding.

Will be interesting to see what other embassies do with all of this. And more interesting to see where Immigration now goes....