Advice Needed: Slow Emptying Toilets & Septic Tank System

[Beardog]

It sounds like your pipes are not clearing in # 3 toilet if your plunging up odors it has leftover debri in the pipe. Poor slope & the funky pipe design will slow that down to a crawl.

Somehow if you do not have any separate outlets for gray water a sink or shower needs to be in the equation to put a vent in the air usually goes through the sink & down into the main to vent the system. No doubt there are more ways to vent but not directly into the 4’ main to let that would allow raw methane to vent out the roof vent & is a no-no. If you have no vents in the design of the plumbing you need to add some venting into the system which can be done with routing pipes up the outside of the wall if you have a sink near the wall. If you have to add vents best to put it through the roof & seal around the pipe. If you are afraid of cutting a hole in the roof put the pipe with a screened T up to the roofline (above is best). I would think the architect should have put at least 3 vent pipes in. Sometimes they hide the vent pipes in the attic you may want to check up there to see if you can find any.

Hard to believe that any installer would put together a ventless system & base the whole Enchilada on the final vent of the septic. I would think that only contributes less than 10% of the actual venting required.

Are your sinks & shower draining slowly as well? Even using the gray water to water your garden vents are still required to make it function correctly.

And yes the Borg collective sucks. They just don't get it & always have the same answer NO.

Or don't Know. It has to be really a stumbling block to learn from Dad or a friend that has done it wrong for the last 100 years & have the curse passed on to you. Hardly anyone here has any proper schooling & the testing if there is any has got to be a can I buy my papers for 5000 baht at the end of the day.

At least on this house I was able to teach 2 out of 3 a more coherent way to do the plumbing & easier + cheaper without all the failings. That & lots of glue on the joint's.

You don't save baht on redos for lack of glue!

[gdhm]

Hi Barry ,

I response to your questions:

1) There are only 2 adults and one 8 year old living in the house.

I am the only one who uses toilet paper my wife and stepson do I the Thai way. I feel one Septic tank should be fine. Septic tank It has NEVER overflowed or pushed up its PVC lid (not even in very bad Monsoon periods.

2) As I said ealier I am 100% certain there are no upward venting outlets at toilet end.

3) I confirm the air vent and pipe for the septic tank is unobstructed and clear. I checked this out yesterday when it was suggested I should.

4) Having lid off the Septic tank makes NO DIFFERENCE to any toilet's performance (cannot have better Septic tank venting than that .

5) I agree with you some waste must remain in pipes. Some are too long in places for ONE flush to pushes the water all the way to the Septic. I feel however that is a Red Herring (except for the gas in pipes)as the the water flows perfectly with a below 80% full Septic tank. Clearly whatever waste debris settles in some pipes, it moves along with subsequent flushes. There are no blockages in pipes after living here for 3 years the emptying of Septic tank 2 months ago proved that (with instantly perfect functioning of all 5 toilets).

6) I cannot see how it is possible to replace my toilet pipework and redirect in straight lines.

That would mean digging up huge areas of inside and outside patio reinforced concrete flooring and tiling inside the house which would not only be a nightmare and damage the house but would also cost a fortune that

I do not have (income only 49,000 Baht per month - how the drop in GBP exchange rates in 4 years 70 to 48 baht per 1 GBP have killed me and no doubt many others). I'm a "Ki Nok Farang" I suppose who spent what I had in capital on our home, car and contents.

back on topic:

Everybody, I feel is concentrating too much on my poor venting and long bending pipes.

Please can I cut across the length and complexity of my posts and the detailed helpful technical replies on what should be done and how to correct those weaknesses and restate what I feel is the ONLY really SALIENT detail: based on my experiences, namely;

Septic tank is empty or below 80% (approx) of its "full" normal level = ALL my toilets (Including the infamous No.3) WORK 100% PERFECTLY

Please can someone can explain why my system, everybody thinks my badly vented, too long bendy possibly poorly sloping pipes from my toilets are the cause of my problems,when all toilets WORKED PERFECTLY for 15 days after Septic tanks emptied until the Septic tank fills to 90% normal level full.

Maybe with my lengthy posts and maybe too much info on my set-up (not my design)it is difficult seeing "the wood from the trees"

I reiterate, that I feel the significant problem cannot be my systems' bendy long poorly sloping pipes with poor ventilation BECAUSE IF that was the case then emptying the Septic tank would not have made one iota of difference (or minute)to the performance of my 5 toilets.

I am sure everybody is 100% correct about the benefits, desires, virtues and safety of shorter straighter pipes with decent venting at toilet end

BUT

I still repeat "my system works perfectly with all these imperfections in place IF the Septic tank is less than 80% full".

Surely guys the real problem with my house is the Septic tank & 2 concrete ring drainage containers as nothing else that makes a relevant difference

AM I mistaken? IF I am please someone explain why my logic is so flawed.

Final comment on venting and shorter straighter pipework which I feels knocks some posted concerns of my system set-up on the head:

1) In the case of upstairs No.4 toilet it is above No 1 . No.1 is equal best performer (acceptable).

2) With toilet No.4s extra 3+ metre vertical drop from upstairs and extra gravity it should outperform No.1 but it is second worst and poor performer.

3) BOTH No.4 and No.1 are a very close 1.5 metre pipe line away from the Septic tank inlet pipe.

Once again guys all I am very grateful for your interest and input and I learn all the time .

Wishing you and your families a great weekend

Dave

Edited June 18, 2011 by gdhm

[bankruatsteve]

Could the problem be that you don't really have a septic SYSTEM (which would need a much larger leach field) and so with the rainy season and you only having one tank instead of several (which actually is normal without the leach field), it's just filling up with mostly water. This time of year it will take a while to leach out. If you can somehow separate the grey water, that should help a lot. Otherwise, you probably just stuck with calling in the truck every few weeks until the dry season.

[Beardog]

Tearing up the patio would be a hard option.If it was elevated 1000 baht labor underneath would have worked & been doable. With the system as fubar as it stands the best way to check to see if the only available venting is compromised by water filling up the 2 drain away tanks & not draining during a rain could sap out the only available venting as Steve is suggesting. that could be easily determined by lifting the lids on the soakaways after a good rain session. If that is the case the next option would be to dig out a proper leach field .Minimum 7 meter long 1 meter deep X2ft. wide fill with gravel & plastic membrane & redo surface ordinarily you wouldn't want to put tile or blacktop-cement over the field for access later & hopefully never.Or the only other remedy that would somewhat overcome poor sloping & no vents is to throw or redirect one of the sinks in bathroom # 5 & put an exterior vent Even 1/2 inch would help & run the sink into the 4" main to free up 1,2,4&5. 3 would still be hurting.Short of a reroute its problematic. Option C would be to put in a similar ring setup like have X 2 you can still use the tanks for drainage if they work.If they are defunct you will need to get the draining portion working (needed regardless if not draining .If everything is almost full & you got no flow the majority of the problem is in the septic- drain tanks. That would at least get it as good as day 1 of the first 15. The sink hookup to an exterior wall although it is not as pretty as in the wall, would be relative cheap to put in & minimal cost to tear out behind the sink & hog out a hole & run the pipe into the sink & then down to the floor to find thee 4" main to let the sink vent the toilet pipes. no pongs will come up as your sink has a J trap to stop the gasses from coming up. If it makes you feel any better I had to do this on our master bathroom. Somewhere the translation part got lost when I had them hookup the sink to vent the toilet while I was in The U.S. for 3 weeks. It was vented to God only knows where so I had to cap the line to the vent & take out the sink & reinstall the vent to the sink to the toilet. It was cheap as I redid the work & the contractors help did the grunt work on cement & tile.That portion would be max 1000 baht to do tile cement pipe & labor @ 400 baht a day for the labor to do the deed. Hard to believe but I left 5 pictures from the first house we built & had Alisa translate to Thai & it was still done the Thai way.

I hope you can get an easy quick fix on this situation even if you have to settle for better than it is now or for the first 15 days of the pump out. If your soak away is working properly it should drain rather quickly. If it is affected by a flood situation & retains water for a long time you will have to open it up.

[gdhm]

Could the problem be that you don't really have a septic SYSTEM (which would need a much larger leach field) and so with the rainy season and you only having one tank instead of several (which actually is normal without the leach field), it's just filling up with mostly water. This time of year it will take a while to leach out. If you can somehow separate the grey water, that should help a lot. Otherwise, you probably just stuck with calling in the truck every few weeks until the dry season.

Forgive me Steve, I am getting a little confused as not a plumbing Techie (office clerk all my working life).

I have 1 1200 litre Septic tank. The outlet is linked to a 3 metre pipe that enters a concrete ring drainage container (a little under metre diameter lid), that then has a pipe about 1 metre long that enters a 2nd identical concrete ring drainage container.

I agree that after very heavy prolonged period of rain that the 2 ring containers probably completely fill with water from but the saturated soil around them and th Septic tank as they cannot drain to the soil. The other day looking into the Septic tank after 4 days of heavy rain I saw signs that these containers either flowed back into Septic tank OR the Septic tank filled almost to its lid because it could not send any water to the already full ring drainage containers.

As stated earlier (but probably lost in all my detail ) .

ONLY the 5 toilets flow to the Septic tank and ring drainage containers - Nothing else does.

All basin, sinks, washing machine, bath and shower "grey" water flows through two different pipe systems (one either side of house, with no tanks in line)and flows out of pipe into a small ditch channel in front of our house. All houses do the same as no main drainage system here in our soi yet (but planned). Our small amounts easily drain without much water building up in the ditch (if any). Grey water has never been a problem for us or anybody.

Regards, Dave

[CDNinKS]

Can you take the lids off the concrete soak away pits to actually see if they are full?

[gdhm]

Tearing up the patio would be a hard option.If it was elevated 1000 baht labor underneath would have worked & been doable. With the system as fubar as it stands the best way to check to see if the only available venting is compromised by water filling up the 2 drain away tanks & not draining during a rain could sap out the only available venting as Steve is suggesting. that could be easily determined by lifting the lids on the soakaways after a good rain session. If that is the case the next option would be to dig out a proper leach field .Minimum 7 meter long 1 meter deep X2ft. wide fill with gravel & plastic membrane & redo surface ordinarily you wouldn't want to put tile or blacktop-cement over the field for access later & hopefully never.Or the only other remedy that would somewhat overcome poor sloping & no vents is to throw or redirect one of the sinks in bathroom # 5 & put an exterior vent Even 1/2 inch would help & run the sink into the 4" main to free up 1,2,4&5. 3 would still be hurting.Short of a reroute its problematic. Option C would be to put in a similar ring setup like have X 2 you can still use the tanks for drainage if they work.If they are defunct you will need to get the draining portion working (needed regardless if not draining .If everything is almost full & you got no flow the majority of the problem is in the septic- drain tanks. That would at least get it as good as day 1 of the first 15. The sink hookup to an exterior wall although it is not as pretty as in the wall, would be relative cheap to put in & minimal cost to tear out behind the sink & hog out a hole & run the pipe into the sink & then down to the floor to find thee 4" main to let the sink vent the toilet pipes. no pongs will come up as your sink has a J trap to stop the gasses from coming up. If it makes you feel any better I had to do this on our master bathroom. Somewhere the translation part got lost when I had them hookup the sink to vent the toilet while I was in The U.S. for 3 weeks. It was vented to God only knows where so I had to cap the line to the vent & take out the sink & reinstall the vent to the sink to the toilet. It was cheap as I redid the work & the contractors help did the grunt work on cement & tile.That portion would be max 1000 baht to do tile cement pipe & labor @ 400 baht a day for the labor to do the deed. Hard to believe but I left 5 pictures from the first house we built & had Alisa translate to Thai & it was still done the Thai way.

I hope you can get an easy quick fix on this situation even if you have to settle for better than it is now or for the first 15 days of the pump out. If your soak away is working properly it should drain rather quickly. If it is affected by a flood situation & retains water for a long time you will have to open it up.

Sorry, but I am confused on part of what you say. As I have just said to Steve all my "grey" water is on different pipe systems and not in anyway connected to the Toilet and Septic tank systems. We have no problems with water flow when draining bath, basins, sinks, showers, washing machine outlet. All have worked perfectly since day one whether Monsoon or dray seasons (no tanks to fill up)

You seem to be suggesting I insert two more concrete drainage ring containers (if I do not go the leach field route (a leach field is not easy as our large House tanks up a lot of our land and the garden on all side of the house is narrow in most places patio walkway around house to boundary walls is 3- 4 metres to wall back and left side of house). Am I understanding correctly.

Your last para.

THANKS BARRY its much appreciated.

I was thinking of working out how much space I have where my 1200 litre Septic tank is currently installed and getting a 2000 Litre (or even bigger if room). That alone with all current problems still in place would extend Septic tank filling to around once a month before deciding if to get it emptied (I accept in heavy monsoons IF the ring drainage containers reverse flow into the Septic tank that emptying the Septic tank in JUNE, JULY, AUG SEPT would be a waste of effort unless I went for a closed system of only a Large Septic tank

If I do get a new larger Septic tank I will ensure I can see and get at the inlet and outlet connectors and make sure the inlet is never below normal maximum water level to see if that help (I believe it may resolve) I suppose in Monsoon season maybe I can work out a valve to close the pipe leading to the Concrete ring drainage containers if I find evidence they reverse flow into the Septic tank if they cannot drain adequately.

Expect for during days of heavy rain and a half a day after, all the 5 toilets draining characterises remain the same year round whether, hot, dry or light/moderate rain Monsoon periods. I find it hard to believe the ring drainage containers cannot drain adequately enough during dry and hot season UNLESS my Septic tank passes very little water to them anyway due to some fitting error.

I really need to check those ring drainage containers out. I dug out out grass lawn above one container (about 10 cms down) to the concrete lid only the other day but it was too large and heavy for just me to lift (even with a good back). I also need to uncover the pipes leading to/between them as quickly as possible. May tell some stories.

Wish I was not 150 kilos with a very bad back as I'd have done that months ago but with my back its impossible. I am trying to get workers to help from my family (but t5hey are (genuinely) busy. Of course nobody likes messing around with a sewage system and I don't blame 'em - me neither).

Finding workers to dig up the existing (emptied and washed out as well as possible first) Septic tank and getting rid of it (correctly), enlarging the hole and fitting a new all in a day so we can use toilets within 24 hours for going offline will not be easy I suspect, (unless extra money talks). I will have to leave that to my wife as she speaks Thais and knows who to ask and how.

I plan to deal with the Septic tank about a month or so into the cool dry season as that will allow the water table to drop, soil to drain and dry out but not get to hard as it would in the Hot season. Cannot contemplate doing during the Monsoon season (only my builder tried to do that .

If it had not been my house and my brand new Septic tank being damaged at the time, it would have been a first class comedy scene. Worker waste deep in water trying to dig a deeper hole and complaining that as he dug or bailed out water it kept filling again.

Then 4 workers tried to force a PVC 1200 litre floating Septic tank downwards into position NO WAY!!!!

Kind Regards, Dave

[gdhm]

Can you take the lids off the concrete soak away pits to actually see if they are full?

You have read my mind. I was just saying the same to Beardog in my last post which I have just posted before seeing this post. It is my Number one priority (and pipes in and out of them.

I want to see what they look like inside after days of heavy rain

AND

what they look like after a week or so of no or little rain.

Should tell me a lot (good or bad, or very bad ).

If they do not overfill (except maybe after heavy extensive rain) and pipes slope into/out of them correctly then all roads really do lead to the Septic tank installation being the primary problem (be it sloping or inlet pipe under water or water levels rarely reaching the outlet pipe which I have noted they rarely do. Cannot figure that out maybe a leak in Septic tank side or somehow a lower outlet pipe has been connected to the Septic tank (but I have seen no brand or model that has a second lower outlet pipe. The air vent is correctly connected to the top and correct hole

When the Septic tank was emptied 2 months I ago although pitch black inside (even my powerful floodlight failed to light up much inside. I did look as carefully as I could and check out things as best I could visually. I noted one strange pipe entering the main chamber about 25% down. As builder could not remember brand or retailer of the Septic tank, I cannot check out its design, BUT I have absolutely NO IDEA what that pipe is (unless my builder inserted it (but why would he)

It MAY be in a pipe in an internal baffle board and not side of Septic tank as I thought) to allow water from the inlet chamber to pass into the Filtered outlet chamber (below the plastic filter wheels) but it seems to be in a most unusual place and height. Certainly its not being used by any of the toilets as an inlet and it is much too low to be used as the outlet pipe (under the plastic filter wheels/medium). However, the outlet pipe above the plastic filter wheels/medium is much or the time 5cms above the usual maximum Septic tank water level (none of the visiting plumber could explain that. Even when I ran a hose to the septic tank a ran water into it the water level rose only marginally when it should have reached the outlet pipe. ONLY in Monsoon time does it ever seem to be reached So how does water get out of the Septic tank?.

I have checked and tried so many processes of elimination that I myself can barely see the wood from the trees (hence this Topic to TV).

I still think the Septic Tank ITSELF is at the centre of all our problems

I REALLY feel my builder has done something really daft with the installation of the Septic tank, or cracked it badly lower down or he has messed up its immediate pipework in and out.

Until I dig all around the tank and concreter ring drainage containers, their connecting pipework I do not have a complete picture.

Kind regards, Dave

[PattayaParent]

<snip>

Everybody, I feel is concentrating too much on my poor venting and long bending pipes.

Please can I cut across the length and complexity of my posts and the detailed helpful technical replies on what should be done and how to correct those weaknesses and restate what I feel is the ONLY really SALIENT detail: based on my experiences, namely;

Septic tank is empty or below 80% (approx) of its "full" normal level = ALL my toilets (Including the infamous No.3) WORK 100% PERFECTLY

Please can someone can explain why my system, everybody thinks my badly vented, too long bendy possibly poorly sloping pipes from my toilets are the cause of my problems,when all toilets WORKED PERFECTLY for 15 days after Septic tanks emptied until the Septic tank fills to 90% normal level full.

Maybe with my lengthy posts and maybe too much info on my set-up (not my design)it is difficult seeing "the wood from the trees"

I reiterate, that I feel the significant problem cannot be my systems' bendy long poorly sloping pipes with poor ventilation BECAUSE IF that was the case then emptying the Septic tank would not have made one iota of difference (or minute)to the performance of my 5 toilets.

I am sure everybody is 100% correct about the benefits, desires, virtues and safety of shorter straighter pipes with decent venting at toilet end

BUT

I still repeat "my system works perfectly with all these imperfections in place IF the Septic tank is less than 80% full".

Surely guys the real problem with my house is the Septic tank & 2 concrete ring drainage containers as nothing else that makes a relevant difference

AM I mistaken? IF I am please someone explain why my logic is so flawed.

<snip>

When your septic tank is empty your whole system from is vented by the vent in the tank, from the tank all the way though the inlet and the pipework to you sanitary fittings. When the inlet to the tank is under water the tank is still vented but the pipework to the tank is under pressure.

[gdhm]

THANKS TO ALL YOU GUYS KIND HELP, I NOW KNOW 100% THE REASON FOR MY TOILET PROBLEMS. As you all suggested Venting IS the problem.

A thought flashed across my mind and I tried a small experiment.

a) Fill a coke bottle of water tip upside down place nozzle below water. ZERO FLOW.

Lift nozzle a tiny bit above the water and pretty fast flow even though not top venting hole

c) Stick a venting hole in top of bottle with bottle nozzle below water level I got a fast emptying flow (speed depending on size of hole).

I NOW understand why the empty/half full Septic tank works thanks to PattayaParent's explanation. I believe it reasonable to assume, with NO venting at toilet ends, that most of the pipework at ground level and some (or lot) above ground level are normally full of waste water due to lack of venting either end of system . Probably ONLY gravity, height and weight of flushed water causes toilets to drain at all (in varying degrees of acceptability).

THEN I had a brainwave. I pushed a short length of hose pipe down teach of the upstairs toilets long enough to pass through the s bend, blew down them to clear them of any water that got inside as I pushed them through. I now had a small air vent for each upstairs toilet

I then flushed each toilet in turn with following results:

Upstairs Toilet 5 Had the least dramatic improvement but still noticeably better than it normal pretty good performance). It over emptied and gurgled but rose slightly afterwards. INTERESTINGLY there seems to be a connection in the pipe circuit between No.4 upstairs and 5 upstairs as both (particularly 4)gurgle (due to a drop in water level) in the toilet bowl when the OTHER is flushed.

Upstairs Toilet 4(second worst, and normally very poor). Performance now was wonderful . Fast draining of toilet bowl and only downside was the accompanying loud gurgling sound in the hose pipe throughout as the air was audibly sucked down the hose and pipework below. The bowl at first over emptied causing more gurgling before water level rose slightly.

Nightmare Toilet No. 3 upstairs. Result: Heavy sucking gurgling sounds in the hose (not quite as loud/strong as 4) and the bowl emptying speed improved from 9 seconds to 3- 4 acceptable (over emptied at times and gurgles (before water rose slightly)

Bearing in mind the hoses used are only ½ inch there is a limit to how fast/quietly air can be drawn down during venting.

Toilet 2 ground level) without any hose was as good as normal. Pretty fast and totally acceptable

Toilet 1 ground level (no hose) and nearest to Septic tanks failed to empty fully (Normally it is the best toilet).

I rubber plunged it and a massive amount of gas was released. I am assuming the initial venting of the all upstairs toilets and extensive water flow in pipe following that somehow forced a lot of gas to accumulate in Toilet No.1 pipework. Once plunged and gas released it now empties super fast (faster than before).

TEST A GREAT SUCCESS!

REMEDIES

1) Temporary: Leave the hoses in upstairs toilets to allow venting. Noisy but works. (Proviso: provided emptying waste dos not clog due to hose).

Question Does anybody see a safety issue of too much gas escaping and maybe igniting when a light switch used.

I am assuming with water and waste now passing down pipes much faster and further(instead of sitting in them) there will be much less methane produced in the pipes and for it to escape out of the hoses. What does escape will be over time (not in one go) Therefore safety/ignition risk almost non existent. Does everybody agree?

2) Easiest quickest permanent fix option. Do not vent at toilet ends with hoses but ensure the inlet pipe of Septic tank is ALWAYS above water (even if a pipe extension needs to fitted to its end and to rise slightly to ensure exit is above water level. I know toilet draining speeds in all toilets was excellent. In fact Toilet No.3 was better when Septic tank not full than in my hose venting test.

This method may also reduce risk of Septic tank popping its lid if heavy Monsoon flooding fills the Septic tank to top because then the inlet will be underwater and toilet flow will be reduced stopped until level drops. Any views on 2) Please.

3)Most Complicated (but best and ideal I think)Fix (maybe reinforced with method 2 above):

Looking at my map again there are 3 hollow columns for the upstairs pipes to go down. Top end of these columns are just below upper first floor level.

May I ask the experts here. If I drilled out these hollow columns near their tops and connected a Venting pipe one end right angles to each toilet waste pipe and the other goes vertically up the outside wall to just below eaves Would that work or would the connection be too low? (being approx. 30 cms or so below upstairs' toilet levels and fact that a little water may enter the vent tube upon flushing of toilet but be sucked out by the water flowing downwards).

It is impossible to connect at same level as base of toilet (but I can within around.3 to .5 metre below)

With toilet 4 I would have to start the horizontal part of the vent lower than the other 2 due to an overhanging small roof at back (there for style).

For info downstairs false ceilings are about 2.75 metres 9ft above ground & false ceiling cavity is a gap of about 30cms

Thanks all, Dave

[Honolulu]

This is not a venting problem.

It is either a sizing problem,( septic tank improperly sized relative to amount of water being drained) or a tank drainage problem,( water is not draining from the septic to the leach field) because of incorrect plumbing in the septic tank, or a perk problem( the leach field is not draining due to heavy rain or incorrect design).

[User3]

This is not a venting problem.

It is either a sizing problem,( septic tank improperly sized relative to amount of water being drained) or a tank drainage problem,( water is not draining from the septic to the leach field) because of incorrect plumbing in the septic tank, or a perk problem( the leach field is not draining due to heavy rain or incorrect design).

Have to agree with you on this, but likely not tank sizing problem as if it was all toilets would be...er...a bit constipated.

If I were the OP I'd look at the height difference between the septic tank outflow and the field. If the field, or in this case some sort of 'rings' which are likely similar function, is installed too high relative to the tank, then the tank will not drain to proper level and remain full(ish) thus put 'back pressure' on incoming line by having inlet line full of liquid that must be displaced before (during) flush, perhaps causing slow drainage of toilet. It is easily possible that piping configuration/slope/size/number of elbows/etc results in lower than optimal dump (sorry) rate of one toilet but not perhaps of others which have a less restricted flow path.

My 02 Cents.

[CDNinKS]

Glad you could confirm it was venting after all Dave......I hate to say I told you so, but....

I would not leave those hose's vented into the house. It is not an explosion to worry about, it is being gassed, those gases can be deadly. Run the hoses out the window in the short term.

In the long term I know you don't want to have to break concrete, but I think that is your only option. You will have to take the toilet up and break the concrete and get down to the 4 inch pipe were you can tap into it and run a piece of 2 inch pvc up the wall behind the toilet out the roof.

That is the proper fix......

Edited June 19, 2011 by CDNinKS

[Beardog]

Cd got that right you don't really want methane to be venting period. Good chance it would not com-bust , but it has in the past. you really can't run a straight vent into the main for the same reason. The stack would now be a possible combustion chamber later. Cheapest way out 1 sink in your most used bathroom running the pipe either under the roof or over the roof. This way the sink has the vent & allows air to assist the water down the road. This is the 1st time I heard of a Thai sett-up using zero venting for the plumbing in the house to the septic tank. Outside up the wall & painted to your house color & plumbed into the sink & the sink drain into thee 4" pipe will assist the refuse down to the tank & eliminate the strain of the single vent that can be affected by slow draining from the leach tanks.If the tanks are flooded your still looking at slowwww toilets.

Glad you got it confirmed on the venting Congrads.

Barry

[Beardog]

Edit Double post dam_n internet!

Edited June 19, 2011 by Beardog

[CDNinKS]

Beardog, I'm pretty sure he has said in previous posts that his grey water drains are completely separate and drain out to a ditch. So venting them would not help his toilet problem.

[Beardog]

Beardog, I'm pretty sure he has said in previous posts that his grey water drains are completely separate and drain out to a ditch. So venting them would not help his toilet problem.

Actually it would make a world of difference. Usually even with gray water systems you run a vent into some receptacle to get a flow on to help the lines flush easy. our house My neighbors & 2 other friends all have gray water tanks & all have one sink hooked in to a vent system. I wouldn't chance it up here because of how hard the dirt is for draining. even if you have a great leach field after the gravel you still have the hardest dirt I have ever seen. At least it makes it to the drain field easily even when it is flooding.

Like I said I have never seen a house here without at least 1 vent somewhere....even if it is hiding in the attic.

How is your system built? Not that it matters but you probably have gray water system & vents? I think it would definitely be a + over what he has got going now.

[David006]

Aah so it is venting .....the coke bottle inverted in water experiment shows that the main contributing factor is the water level in the ST yes! So what if you vented the "input" pipe side of the ST next to it? The outlet would have to be higher than the second story but probably could be elbowed and led off to an unobtrusive location, would that not be as effective as venting from toilet and the associated hammer drilling of concrete??...worth a try with a T joint and a hose or something first ?? maybe you could put the vent inside the ST if you can get at the inlet pipe...then it would just be a short little pipe above the water level.

Or... put the vent outside the ST on the inlet pipe and elbow it back into the ST...above the water level of course...

Okay so is there a djinn at work here ?...just getting cosy in bed last night and the wifes sister yells up to my darling telling her the downstairs bathroom floor is flooded. Turns out the water from washing the dishes upstairs had backed up the shower drain downstairs..luckily must have been the rinse water..so relatively clean.. I used my shop vac on blow and cleared the drain eventually....with the guilty rice and black hair blowing out of the handbasin overflow...lol...so much fun hear in LOS

Edited June 19, 2011 by David006

[CDNinKS]

How is your system built? Not that it matters but you probably have gray water system & vents? I think it would definitely be a + over what he has got going now.

Oh, you can be assured I vented my grey water lines as well, but they are separate vents from my black water lines. I will have a total of 4 vent pipes exiting from my roof, 2 grey water and 2 black water (opposite sides of the house)

I agree the op would be better off with his grey water lines vented, but it would not help with his current situation with his black water problem. I don't believe there is any physical connection between his grey and black plumbing. Black directly to septic tank and grey directly to the ditch.

[Gary A]

Venting is not the problem. It seems to help because the toilet pipes leading to the tank inlet will easily hold the contents of the flush. The problem is that the inlet to the tank is too low and once the water level rises above that level, it becomes air locked. The tank inlet must be above the maximum water level in the tank. Installing a vent in the pipe above the maximum water level will help a lot but it is not really a fix.

ADDED - You have already observed that the toilets flush normally when the water level in the tank is below the inlet.

Edited June 20, 2011 by Gary A

[Beardog]

How is your system built? Not that it matters but you probably have gray water system & vents? I think it would definitely be a + over what he has got going now.

Oh, you can be assured I vented my grey water lines as well, but they are separate vents from my black water lines. I will have a total of 4 vent pipes exiting from my roof, 2 grey water and 2 black water (opposite sides of the house)

I agree the op would be better off with his grey water lines vented, but it would not help with his current situation with his black water problem. I don't believe there is any physical connection between his grey and black plumbing. Black directly to septic tank and grey directly to the ditch.

Agreed He has more than one issue & each answer would contribute to a better fix.

[gdhm]

Beardog, I'm pretty sure he has said in previous posts that his grey water drains are completely separate and drain out to a ditch. So venting them would not help his toilet problem.

Yes I did CDNinKS. Al Grey water is on a separate pipe system.

The hose system clearly proves its Venting problem Honolulu & User3.

The TEMPORARY hose system however is flawed in as much as when I flush the hose sometimes gets water in it (not surprising). When that happens the toilets go back to normal poor performance.

Hose clear of water excellent water flow from toilets

Water in the hose poor flow

I feel case on venting in proved

[gdhm]

Venting is not the problem. It seems to help because the toilet pipes leading to the tank inlet will easily hold the contents of the flush. The problem is that the inlet to the tank is too low and once the water level rises above that level, it becomes air locked. The tank inlet must be above the maximum water level in the tank. Installing a vent in the pipe above the maximum water level will help a lot but it is not really a fix.

ADDED - You have already observed that the toilets flush normally when the water level in the tank is below the inlet.

I agree with most of your comments Gary A except I am sure venting IS the primary problem. Surely, by having the inlet pipe above water that is applying venting to the system (be it from bottom end).

I too, have found the "fix" at the Septic tank end is better than my hose "fix". However, to be fair, my hoses are very narrow and I believe wider hoses would make positive difference.

As I have said before I do know 100% that if my inlet pipe in Septic tank is above water level all 5 toilets works perfectly with no toilet end venting. ALL did so SO when we moved in and again for 15 days consecutive days after my Septic tank was emptied 2 months ago (until the inlet pipe was below water level).

The hose venting at toilet end (my temporary/experimental fix) also works excellently with inlet pipe still under waterbut not quite as good as inlet pipe above water, but as I said above the hoses are narrow.

I am guessing BOTH systems individually will produce near identical results as both break the vacuum.

Top and bottom venting would seem the best of course

I agree with others that more than problem exists compared to a perfect system, however,CUTTING TO THE CHASE

If ALL toilets empty as fast as they should do and continue to do so then as far as I am concerned who gives a SH*T (sorry could not resist ) if pipes a too bendy, to long, not perfect slope or no top venting IF bottom venting ALONE (inlet pipe above water level) does the job.

I am sure all would agree with me on that.

ON Septic Tank Design

If one goes to a/the main Septic tank distributor in Thailand

http://www.dos.co.th/product/productdetail.php?pid=29

Click on any of the brands of Compact design (top row) and then click on link "Set up Description". ALL have the inlet pipe extending well down into the Septic Tanks. This I find interesting as we all know Thai builders rarely vent at toilet end BUT

I notice however, that at the top end of the inlet extension pipe there is part of the pipe that goes UP (well above normal water level in Septic tank and higher than inlet pipe entrance. I am not a plumber but I am assuming that upward "bit of pipe" vents inlet pipe and does the same job as if the pipe did not extend down into the Septic tank but was cut off to above water level.

Can any expert confirm/reject this?

I can see a value of the inlet pipe going down into the Septic tank to help avoid waste automatically conglomerating on the top/surface near the inlet pipe.

Regards, Dave

Edited June 20, 2011 by gdhm

[User3]

I notice however, that at the top end of the inlet extension pipe there is part of the pipe that goes UP (well above normal water level in Septic tank and higher than inlet pipe entrance. I am not a plumber but I am assuming that upward "bit of pipe" vents inlet pipe and does the same job as if the pipe did not extend down into the Septic tank but was cut off to above water level.

Can any expert confirm/reject this?

I can see a value of the inlet pipe going down into the Septic tank to help avoid waste automatically conglomerating on the top/surface near the inlet pipe.

Regards, Dave

Well. no expert here but the pipe that goes up into the air (so to speak... depends on your diet I suppose) space in your tank most likely functions as a vacuum breaker.

I'd also say the inlet pipe needs to be fairly deep into the bowels (sigh..) of the tank in order to not disturb the matt that sits (notice I didn't say squats..) on top of the liquid level.

For that reason, I'd be hesitant to cut off or in any way modify the internals of the tank that would change any dynamics of the system (tank system).

If venting fixes the toilet draining problem that is great, but to me it's dealing with a symptom and not the root cause.

I'd still look at the drain field and septic tank level in relation to each other but that's just me....

Glad you are making progress.

[gdhm]

Hi User3,

Thanks for your post. I agree I suspect the up bit is a vacuum breaker and I suspect it will not need cutting off the extending done pipe as a result. The filter wheels and chamber just below the outlet pipe is in a different baffled off part of the Septic tank so waste could not get into that section if I did decide cutting off the downward extension

I assume the Septic tank manufacturers assumed there would be stack venting above each toilet and therefore the design of th Septic tanks would not have needed to worry about the inlet pipe always being above water level.

========

Venting toilets. I post a diagram based on only way I can see how I can possibly (well realistically) vent my worst toilet No. 3 upstairs (others would be on a similar basis.

My question to the plumbing/venting experts is quick simple;

Would this proposed vent stack suffice? (bearing in mind it would be necessity be around 0.5 metre below Toilet base and joined at a downward vertical connection join if I can find/buy one in Thailand.

Regards, Dave

[Beardog]

In regaurds to Gary A's posting I would not discount his advise either. He is on of the more knowledgeable people I have found on TV & does no his shit!

You really have a combination of things going on I feel. It does sound like you have a problem with the tank draining & the venting. I think a vent would definitely help , if nothing else to overcome what you think may be a poor slope scenario. It may be a lot of help to put a vent in But you still will have to get tyhe tank itself squared up if it isn't draining when it is 15 days.

The toilet vent setup you have would work but I myself would be hesitant to vent directly into the toilet pipe itself as in code work & in non coded work It isn't really recomended. Will it work , I would think it would since your close to a vertical stack as you can get. Still if you are considering that route it wouldd almost be the same cost to run it correctly into the sink & then to the toilet.I know it is probably not what you want to hear but I see it as a best option .You would only be using 1 extra 2 T's - less than 4 meters(probably way less) & a 1/2 "-3/4 " (whichever is already in place on the sink) & a 4" connecter with a 2" adapted down to a 1/2 or3/4 " T for the sink line. 2 T's 40 baht the 4'connector around 235 baht The adapters maybe 50 baht or so. That only leaves the labor for the air hammer or chisel to break out on course of tile to the toilet & possibly 2 tiles around the toilet.The labor for the sink portion is 3-4 hours & the toilet should be the same. Add 3-4 hours for retiling & 3-4 hours for installing the pipe on the outside. Which is enough time for hidden problems. When you do any of the work on the inside make sure they lay the pipe on sand & then cement it .That way if you have a problem at some later date it is very easy to lift the tile & do the work. I redid 2/3rds of the work that was done while away in the U.S. already.You might consider putting a larger diameter pipe through the wall to the vent pipe & feed the 1/2 " through the 3/4 " & seal the gap with Silka oil based silicone. Lasts 10-20 years. if you have to rework you just cut the silicone & cut the vent pipe & reinstall the pipe. All my pipes are double jacketed. If you have a cavity in 2 rows of bricks it is not needed.It just makes it very easy & would add up to 79 baht for the 3/4" jacket.The last cost will be the tile( I hope you saved a box of the same tile or you will have to match as closely as you can) It shouldn't be much more than one box up to 300 baht & a bag of concrete 120 baht.

I just did all this in November so it should be similar prices in your are or slightly higher. I pay 400-500 baht for skilled labor which is high but for 1000 baht labor A Thai worker should be able to punch the job out.

In al fairness to all the posters that offered you input they are all right. Since you have more than one issue at hand & we are all troubleshooting this in the blind without seeing it.

There is one valve that I have used in the U.S. that would work great on your proposed toilet vent called a studor vent. It is an afterthought vent made for these cases.

It opens on demand & closes when not on demand.

Unfortunately in the land of skimp pickens I have found none here

Here is a picture of the infamous Studor vent if you find anyone that knows of a shop. It goes for 850 baht equivelent in the U.S.

[Beardog]

In regards to Gary A's posting I would not discount his advise either. He is on of the more knowledgeable people I have found on TV & does no his shit!

You really have a combination of things going on I feel. It does sound like you have a problem with the tank draining & the venting. I think a vent would definitely help , if nothing else to overcome what you think may be a poor slope scenario. It may be a lot of help to put a vent in But you still will have to get the tank itself squared up if it isn't draining when it is 15 days.

The toilet vent setup you have would work but I myself would be hesitant to vent directly into the toilet pipe itself as in code work & in non coded work It isn't really recommended. Will it work , I would think it would since your close to a vertical stack as you can get. Still if you are considering that route it would almost be the same cost to run it correctly into the sink & then to the toilet.I know it is probably not what you want to hear but I see it as a best option .You would only be using 1 extra 2 T's - less than 4 meters(probably way less) & a 1/2 "-3/4 " (whichever is already in place on the sink) & a 4" connector with a 2" adapted down to a 1/2 or3/4 " T for the sink line. 2 T's 40 baht the 4'connector around 235 baht The adapters maybe 50 baht or so. That only leaves the labor for the air hammer or chisel to break out on course of tile to the toilet & possibly 2 tiles around the toilet.The labor for the sink portion is 3-4 hours & the toilet should be the same. Add 3-4 hours for re-tiling & 3-4 hours for installing the pipe on the outside. Which is enough time for hidden problems. When you do any of the work on the inside make sure they lay the pipe on sand & then cement it .That way if you have a problem at some later date it is very easy to lift the tile & do the work. I redid 2/3rds of the work that was done while away in the U.S. already.You might consider putting a larger diameter pipe through the wall to the vent pipe & feed the 1/2 " through the 3/4 " & seal the gap with Silka oil based silicone. Lasts 10-20 years. if you have to rework you just cut the silicone & cut the vent pipe & reinstall the pipe. All my pipes are double jacketed. If you have a cavity in 2 rows of bricks it is not needed.It just makes it very easy & would add up to 79 baht for the 3/4" jacket.The last cost will be the tile( I hope you saved a box of the same tile or you will have to match as closely as you can) It shouldn't be much more than one box up to 300 baht & a bag of concrete 120 baht.

I just did all this in November so it should be similar prices in your are or slightly higher. I pay 400-500 baht for skilled labor which is high but for 1000 baht labor A Thai worker should be able to punch the job out.

In all fairness to all the posters that offered you input they are all right. Since you have more than one issue at hand & we are all troubleshooting this in the blind without seeing it.

There is one valve that I have used in the U.S. that would work great on your proposed toilet vent called a Studor vent. It is an afterthought vent made for these cases.

It opens on demand & closes when not on demand.

Unfortunately in the land of slim pickens I have found none here

Here is a picture of the infamous Studor vent if you find anyone that knows of a shop. It goes for 850 baht equivalent in the U.S.

Edited June 20, 2011 by Beardog

[CDNinKS]

Hi Dave,

first lets discuss the septic tank. The design of the tank inlet is specific due to the crust layer that forms in a healthy working septic tank. Most tanks use a baffle type system where the inlet pipe is surrounded by the baffle and the waste must flow down and out to be below the crust layer. So, do not modify the tank inlet system.

Your sketch of your plan to vent the waste pipe will work......it is not ideal, as normally the vent should be as close as possible to the toilet, but none the less it will do the job for you. Go to any of the building supply shops and you will find a 4" blue PVC "Y" connection. This is what you will need to tap into the down pipe you show in the diagram.

Good luck

[CDNinKS]

Was posting at the same time as beardog I guess.

I have to make a few comments. First I would not reduce the vent to 3/4 or 1/2 inch PVC, a minimum would be 2 inch in my opinion. Also I don't believe and kind of a one way valve is necessary in the "Y" connection if you install it the way you show in the diagram. There is no way that any waste can flow up the "Y" and adding a valve would only complicate the system unnecessarily. That is why I recommend 4" as much as possible to preclude the chance of the vent pipe ever plugging. Also, if it ever does become clogged for any reason, all you need to do is run a garden hose of water down the vent to clear it. It was quite common in Canada that the vent stacks would freeze over in the winter, so we used to have to keep an eye on that and if they did we simply went up on the roof with a bucket of hot water and that solved the problem.

This is only my opinion and of course everyone has one, but I have been dealing with septic systems of all types for more than 40 years and the one basic rule still applies......$hit runs downhill

[Beardog]

Was posting at the same time as beardog I guess.

I have to make a few comments. First I would not reduce the vent to 3/4 or 1/2 inch PVC, a minimum would be 2 inch in my opinion. Also I don't believe and kind of a one way valve is necessary in the "Y" connection if you install it the way you show in the diagram. There is no way that any waste can flow up the "Y" and adding a valve would only complicate the system unnecessarily. That is why I recommend 4" as much as possible to preclude the chance of the vent pipe ever plugging. Also, if it ever does become clogged for any reason, all you need to do is run a garden hose of water down the vent to clear it. It was quite common in Canada that the vent stacks would freeze over in the winter, so we used to have to keep an eye on that and if they did we simply went up on the roof with a bucket of hot water and that solved the problem.

This is only my opinion and of course everyone has one, but I have been dealing with septic systems of all types for more than 40 years and the one basic rule still applies......$hit runs downhill

The vent size I was talking about is for the sink into the 4" it would be 2"-4" for the toilet style vent. My choice on a toilet vent setup would be a 1" going up 2 might be more than needed. And the other half is paydays always on Friday!The sink to the toilet would be a 2" adapter into the 4" main is what I meant . I mixed the 2 pipes My bad ....

I put in 10 hours in the gardens & the Cuba Libra's must have kicked in.

Edited June 20, 2011 by Beardog