apologies if this has already been posted.

this is one disturbing image that has been circulating around London after the riots. only one word to describe these utter parasites, scum !

http://youtu.be/BZdLQVE1m2o

apologies if this has already been posted.

this is one disturbing image that has been circulating around London after the riots. only one word to describe these utter parasites, scum !

http://youtu.be/BZdLQVE1m2o

I've heard they have caught one of those tossers.

It's good to hear the government is looking to come down hard these sponging pricks rather than taking a namby pamby PC approach. Or at least that's what they are saying, whether or not that's what happens remains to be seen. No doubt some muppets in government will try to make them out to be the victims.

apologies if this has already been posted.

this is one disturbing image that has been circulating around London after the riots. only one word to describe these utter parasites, scum !

http://youtu.be/BZdLQVE1m2o

I've heard they have caught one of those tossers.

It's good to hear the government is looking to come down hard these sponging pricks rather than taking a namby pamby PC approach. Or at least that's what they are saying, whether or not that's what happens remains to be seen. No doubt some muppets in government will try to make them out to be the victims.

The white guy that unzipped the backpack and took the thing......that he is a petty criminal, and gutless to boot, is plain. The callous way he tossed the wrapping (of what he stole) on the ground is an indication of his class.

apologies if this has already been posted.

this is one disturbing image that has been circulating around London after the riots. only one word to describe these utter parasites, scum !

http://youtu.be/BZdLQVE1m2o

I've heard they have caught one of those tossers.

It's good to hear the government is looking to come down hard these sponging pricks rather than taking a namby pamby PC approach. Or at least that's what they are saying, whether or not that's what happens remains to be seen. No doubt some muppets in government will try to make them out to be the victims.

Its also worth noting a twitter appeal has raised £4k to help the student who's now recovering in hospital. Hope he feels well enough to continue his studies in London!

apologies if this has already been posted.

this is one disturbing image that has been circulating around London after the riots. only one word to describe these utter parasites, scum !

http://youtu.be/BZdLQVE1m2o

I've heard they have caught one of those tossers.

It's good to hear the government is looking to come down hard these sponging pricks rather than taking a namby pamby PC approach. Or at least that's what they are saying, whether or not that's what happens remains to be seen. No doubt some muppets in government will try to make them out to be the victims.

That the police have caught him - good - the bobby-on-the-beat is doing his job.

Now - in the local cop-shop - they must decide what to charge him with. I hope the sergeant (or whoever) has the guts to go for robbery with violence or similar.

Later - the CPS (Crown Prosecution Service)(like the American DA's office) must decide whether the case is worth prosecuting. Is the evidence secure? Has the perp's civil rights been respected, etc., etc.

Then the perp appears in the local court. Will the magistrate support the prosecution of the case. If the guy is found guilty will he be sentenced in that court (maybe six months community service or similar) or will the magistrate send him to a higher court for sentencing, where he may get five years or whatever.

And all these steps are dogged by the thought that the European Court of Human Rights may overturn the case at any time, because someone spilt coffee on the perp during the arrest process.

The criminal justice system in the UK has been destroyed over the past fifteen years by listening to some out-of-touch idealists who think that everyone thinks the way they do (or should be made to think that way). Most people don't.

I doubt these petty thugs will ever be punished for their acts. They will go on in life to be petty little thieves, until they come up against someone really nasty, then they'll be dead petty little thieves.

Case after case was being sent to a higher court for sentencing, and one hopes that a good number of them get stiff sentences.

But think of the other side of the coin: a guy who does two years inside is quite likely to change from a petty criminal to a hardened criminal, so where is the community's gain? I'm not arguing for lenient treatment, just trying to think ahead.

They're being sent away without even a slap on the wrist

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8696787/UK-riots-the-young-yobs-back-on-the-streets-despite-David-Camerons-pledge.html

Despite David Camerons promises that they would face punishment, a string of juvenile criminals have been allowed to return home with their parents.

Several of the young rioters have been pictured in national newspapers committing crimes. Nonetheless, they retain the courts protection of legal anonymity.

The sentences being handed down have dismayed police and MPs after the Prime Ministers promise that rioters would pay for what they have done.

Further undermining Mr Camerons tough rhetoric, Kenneth Clarke, the Justice Secretary, backed the courts. He rejected the Prime Ministers call for new sentencing rules.

The fat fool's gotta go.

In a BBC Radio Four interview, Mr Clarke said “enough” prison sentences were being imposed.

He said: “The system is working.”

The fat fool's gotta go now!

These riots reflect a society run on greed and looting

Haringey youth club closures: 'There'll be riots' - video

Seems there are valid viewpoints not discussed in this thread. From my perspective there are so many unrecognized, unaddressed and ignored aspects to this "event" I have a hard time thinking of where to begin with comments. The outrage-driven consensus here seems to be unanimous in quickly reaching a knee-jerk and very biased conclusion that the riots are due to nothing more than greedy yobs taking advantage. A time-honored conclusion which, to me, is very much "Inside The Box."

These riots reflect a society run on greed and looting

Haringey youth club closures: 'There'll be riots' - video

Seems there are valid viewpoints not discussed in this thread. From my perspective there are so many unrecognized, unaddressed and ignored aspects to this "event" I have a hard time thinking of where to begin with comments. The outrage-driven consensus here seems to be unanimous in quickly reaching a knee-jerk and very biased conclusion that the riots are due to nothing more than greedy yobs taking advantage. A time-honored conclusion which, to me, is very much "Inside The Box."

I take your point, and I admire your rose-coloured specs....I have a pair too that I don whenever I can.....but I think you may be a little out of touch with the reality of what these youths are all about.

These riots reflect a society run on greed and looting

Haringey youth club closures: 'There'll be riots' - video

Seems there are valid viewpoints not discussed in this thread. From my perspective there are so many unrecognized, unaddressed and ignored aspects to this "event" I have a hard time thinking of where to begin with comments. The outrage-driven consensus here seems to be unanimous in quickly reaching a knee-jerk and very biased conclusion that the riots are due to nothing more than greedy yobs taking advantage. A time-honored conclusion which, to me, is very much "Inside The Box."

I take your point, and I admire your rose-coloured specs....I have a pair too that I don whenever I can.....but I think you may be a little out of touch with the reality of what these youths are all about.

It's got nothing to do with donning rose-coloured specs. There is simply nothing rosy about the picture. The point isn't to try and spin events in order to find justification within them, or to excuse the violence. It has everything to do with questioning the source of the event in order to correctly assess it for what it truly represents. If there is no comprehensive understanding of the underlying issues then be assured that unworkable, and potentially further damaging solutions will be implemented which will not only exasperate the situation but affect other segments of society as well.

Calls for applying a heavier boot, or denying them their governmental stipulations, or suggesting harsher punishment, or otherwise repressing and subjugating them with ever greater intensity has all been tried before . . . many, many, many, countless times over the course of our human history. Much of which we rather ashamedly read about in history books. And yet here we are still. Hasn't it dawned on anyone that those solutions don't work because they don't even begin to address the core issues?

Of course, rather than suffer any real work to think deeply about it the mentally lazy can simply pass it off as yobs doing what yobs do, or creeps being creeps, or, well, it's just the nature of the chav "race." Nothing more, nothing less. One might not be PC about it but one can be assured they will fit in comfortably with crowded and sympathetic company.

Sorry for my rant here, but I find most topics in this forum show a fair amount of critical thinking. This one seems to be rife with only bland generalisations. I understand the outrage felt over so many "innocents" being "victimised" yet it's simply not enough justification to allow for base, emotional rationalisations.

I'll put forth the idea that continued inequality, whether economic or social in nature, will lead to unintended, unpredictable and negative repercussions.

Nice "alternative viewpoint", Tippaporn. Paradoxically, I think democracy tends to show up inequality; there will always be inequality in a human society unless we all become perfect, which isn't happening any time soon.

In a situation such as this one, we have to think of two things, the cause, and the future. The cause, I think, is fairly well agreed: too much PC, too much something for nothing, too little discipline and respect.

The future is much harder to deal with. I already pointed out one flaw in the "shut 'em up and throw away the key" solution; what happens when they come out of prison, turned from thoughtless and rather silly youths into hardened criminals? One way we might go, though it would be difficult, is a tightening up of the benefits system to make it harder to get "something for nothing". One of the problems in a democracy, however, is that the fools outnumber the wise men (that includes me among the wise men!), and in an election will always vote to keep or increase their freebies. Look what has just happened in Thailand, as an extreme case.

This is what we should really be thinking about, what happens next? How can we stop this happening again? How can we turn these sort of people into decent citizens? Difficult questions, but they need answers.

These riots reflect a society run on greed and looting

Haringey youth club closures: 'There'll be riots' - video

Seems there are valid viewpoints not discussed in this thread. From my perspective there are so many unrecognized, unaddressed and ignored aspects to this "event" I have a hard time thinking of where to begin with comments. The outrage-driven consensus here seems to be unanimous in quickly reaching a knee-jerk and very biased conclusion that the riots are due to nothing more than greedy yobs taking advantage. A time-honored conclusion which, to me, is very much "Inside The Box."

I take your point, and I admire your rose-coloured specs....I have a pair too that I don whenever I can.....but I think you may be a little out of touch with the reality of what these youths are all about.

It's got nothing to do with donning rose-coloured specs. There is simply nothing rosy about the picture. The point isn't to try and spin events in order to find justification within them, or to excuse the violence. It has everything to do with questioning the source of the event in order to correctly assess it for what it truly represents. If there is no comprehensive understanding of the underlying issues then be assured that unworkable, and potentially further damaging solutions will be implemented which will not only exasperate the situation but affect other segments of society as well.

Calls for applying a heavier boot, or denying them their governmental stipulations, or suggesting harsher punishment, or otherwise repressing and subjugating them with ever greater intensity has all been tried before . . . many, many, many, countless times over the course of our human history. Much of which we rather ashamedly read about in history books. And yet here we are still. Hasn't it dawned on anyone that those solutions don't work because they don't even begin to address the core issues?

Of course, rather than suffer any real work to think deeply about it the mentally lazy can simply pass it off as yobs doing what yobs do, or creeps being creeps, or, well, it's just the nature of the chav "race." Nothing more, nothing less. One might not be PC about it but one can be assured they will fit in comfortably with crowded and sympathetic company.

Sorry for my rant here, but I find most topics in this forum show a fair amount of critical thinking. This one seems to be rife with only bland generalisations. I understand the outrage felt over so many "innocents" being "victimised" yet it's simply not enough justification to allow for base, emotional rationalisations.

I'll put forth the idea that continued inequality, whether economic or social in nature, will lead to unintended, unpredictable and negative repercussions.

I think you are putting a rose tint to it.....you only have to have been on any city street, in any Western country, on any Friday night, to get the true impression of what many of today's city youths are like.

On certain levels, I empathise with your standpoint immensely. It's your last paragraph that doesn't tie in.

Economic equality is an oxymoron. Social inequality is, on many levels, unachievable.... and I daresay essential.

Issanbirder's last post (above) is excellent........ The ideals of democracy entail the grasping of some socially destroying practices, simply because it is majority rules, and the majority are, by definiotion, only average...average intelligence, average education, etc. Not all democratic ideals are intelligent goals.

Inequality?

They should try getting a job, jobs are available. Daily Mail readers go on about immigrants taking 'our' jobs, but if they are it means that their are jobs available to take.

The inequality is that everybody else works for a living but these people want a living handed to them on a plate. Some of these guys actually do very well for themselves because entire families sponging off benefits rake in quite a bit between them.

If they want equality, take away their benefits and get them working.

Sorry for my rant here, but I find most topics in this forum show a fair amount of critical thinking. This one seems to be rife with only bland generalisations.

It's just how it is tip.

These people have had others making excuses on their behalf for years and look what happens. If the government grew some balls and treated them like people and made them act like people, then they might actually start acting like people.

Why over analyse it?

Inequality?

They should try getting a job, jobs are available. Daily Mail readers go on about immigrants taking 'our' jobs, but if they are it means that their are jobs available to take.

The inequality is that everybody else works for a living but these people want a living handed to them on a plate. Some of these guys actually do very well for themselves because entire families sponging off benefits rake in quite a bit between them.

If they want equality, take away their benefits and get them working.

You're not thinking, Moonrakers. "What THEY should do..."? But they have no intention of doing any of it!

If the Government gets really tough, it loses the next election (if it doesn't lose the Lib Dems first)... and the spongers get it all back again. I don't know what the answer is, but I think we all should be thinking what could be done, not just saying something which you know perfectly well is not going to happen. Equality is just a catchword; it doesn't really mean much in real life.

How can we turn these sort of people into decent citizens?

Decent citizens? Molded or developed naturally?

These sorts of people probably would reject such high notions of extreme class-distinction as a standard for what passes as citizenry.

How can we turn these sort of people into decent citizens?

Decent citizens? Molded or developed naturally?

These sorts of people probably would reject such high notions of extreme class-distinction as a standard for what passes as citizenry.

Sounds like double-speak for they don't want to work for a living.

Inequality?

They should try getting a job, jobs are available. Daily Mail readers go on about immigrants taking 'our' jobs, but if they are it means that their are jobs available to take.

The inequality is that everybody else works for a living but these people want a living handed to them on a plate. Some of these guys actually do very well for themselves because entire families sponging off benefits rake in quite a bit between them.

If they want equality, take away their benefits and get them working.

You're not thinking, Moonrakers. "What THEY should do..."? But they have no intention of doing any of it!

If the Government gets really tough, it loses the next election (if it doesn't lose the Lib Dems first)... and the spongers get it all back again. I don't know what the answer is, but I think we all should be thinking what could be done, not just saying something which you know perfectly well is not going to happen. Equality is just a catchword; it doesn't really mean much in real life.

I agree completely, it'll never happen.

But in the mean time let's not continue apologizing for these people.

Loking back at the last week I have to feel some relief that the riots weren't being coordinated really. On Monday night London was virtually unpoliceable with mobs roaming the streets pillaging at will. My real concern on reflection is that many of those charged will be spending time in prison together attending the gym and eating well...plotting their next move which is likely to be far more organised.

This seems to me to be only the beginning of a war of sorts related to inequality...where there are large parts of UK society marginalised by poor educational opportunities and high fees imposed on those who wish to better themselves. The frustration will continue to boil over and be more and more targeted.

Sure the police will react but I don't see them being able to take the lead in snubbing this out. Its random nature already rules out such an approach and combined with planned funding cuts makes it highly unlikely things will improve.

Well as a result of witnessing riots and arson within 100 metres of my home here in London I'm leaving mainland UK next weekend and can't be soon enough for me!

There were a couple of good articles in the Times today. One was an interview with the woman with the unpronounceable name who runs Kids Company. It's a charity in London which deals with kids that no-one else can handle. Lots of feral kids who turn up just for something to eat and gradually start to change their ways. They're just the sort of kids who'd be at the riots. Out of 17,000 kids Camilla Batmanwhatever knows of only 2 that went to the riots.

The other article was by Paul Abbott, the man who wrote 'Shameless'. The interviewer asked if 'Shameless' was autobiographical. Abbott said no - his real life was far worse than anything that happened in 'Shameless'

It's a pity I can't post them here. They make some very good points but they're hidden behind Rupert's paywall.

Peter Oborne in the Telegraph (11th Aug 2011) had an interesting take on the riots.

While not seeking to condone what happened, he pointed out the hipocrisy of MPs condemning the looting, while at the same time having been caught up in the expenses scandal.

I think only 3 MPs went to prison, the majority just had to pay back what they claimed dishonestly.

David Cameron, Ed Miliband and the entire British political class came together yesterday to denounce the rioters. They were of course right to say that the actions of these looters, arsonists and muggers were abhorrent and criminal, and that the police should be given more support.

But there was also something very phony and hypocritical about all the shock and outrage expressed in parliament. MPs spoke about the week’s dreadful events as if they were nothing to do with them...

Our politicians – standing sanctimoniously on their hind legs in the Commons yesterday – are just as bad. They have shown themselves prepared to ignore common decency and, in some cases, to break the law. David Cameron is happy to have some of the worst offenders in his Cabinet. Take the example of Francis Maude, who is charged with tackling public sector waste – which trade unions say is a euphemism for waging war on low‑paid workers. Yet Mr Maude made tens of thousands of pounds by breaching the spirit, though not the law, surrounding MPs’ allowances....

Or take the Salford MP Hazel Blears, who has been loudly calling for draconian action against the looters. I find it very hard to make any kind of ethical distinction between Blears’s expense cheating and tax avoidance, and the straight robbery carried out by the looters...

More here:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peteroborne/100100708/the-moral-decay-of-our-society-is-as-bad-at-the-top-as-the-bottom/

Peter Oborne in the Telegraph (11th Aug 2011) had an interesting take on the riots.

I find it very hard to make any kind of ethical distinction between Blears's expense cheating and tax avoidance, and the straight robbery carried out by the looters...

I see a massive distinction between a few who cheat on their taxes or expense report and thousands who do more than just "straight robbery" - it was robbery, vandalization, arson, assault and in some cases murder resulting in threat to the public safety on a scale not seen in England since WWII. I'm sure the taxpayers who saw their businesses or homes burned to the ground can see the distinction as well.

How can we turn these sort of people into decent citizens?

Decent citizens? Molded or developed naturally?

These sorts of people probably would reject such high notions of extreme class-distinction as a standard for what passes as citizenry.

Sounds like double-speak for they don't want to work for a living.

As opposed to the elite-classes that work and contribute greatly to the society?

I don't know why people keep mentioning the 'elite' classes.

Are they largely a bunch of immoral tossers? Sure. But the riots are a separate thing altogether.

I don't know why people keep mentioning the 'elite' classes.

Are they largely a bunch of immoral tossers? Sure. But the riots are a separate thing altogether.

Don't take it to heart, MR. zzaa has a thing about elites.

I don't know why people keep mentioning the 'elite' classes.

Are they largely a bunch of immoral tossers?

There ya go. Now you're getting it....

How can we turn these sort of people into decent citizens?

Decent citizens? Molded or developed naturally?

These sorts of people probably would reject such high notions of extreme class-distinction as a standard for what passes as citizenry.

Sounds like double-speak for they don't want to work for a living.

As opposed to the elite-classes that work and contribute greatly to the society?

Yeah, anyone who holds down a job to support his/her family is part of the "elite". :rolleyes:

As opposed to the elite-classes that work and contribute greatly to the society?

Yeah, anyone who holds down a job to support his/her family is part of the "elite". :rolleyes:

They even buy their own clothes and TVs and stuff

As opposed to the elite-classes that work and contribute greatly to the society?

Yeah, anyone who holds down a job to support his/her family is part of the "elite". :rolleyes:

They even buy their own clothes and TVs and stuff

Yes some on here have the idea that these people are victims when in reality they are simply losers who have largely chosen their way of life. Lazy workshy but not brainless. They spend their time scamming anything they can.

When I walk to the tube on my way to work each morning at around 0615 I rarely see anything other than white faces. Interesting that eh?

You can accuse me of racism for this remark if you wish but I'm simply giving you the truth.

Edit: Six days to go!

Juts found this on the 'net. The nine principles of policing by Sir Robert Peel (the guy who set the Met up in the first place).

Sir Robert Peel's Nine Principles:

Principle #1: The basic mission for which the police exist is to prevent crime and disorder.

Principle #2: The ability of the police to perform their duties is dependent upon the public approval of police actions.

Principle #3: Police must secure the willing co-operation of the public in voluntary observation of the law to be able to secure and maintain the respect of the public.

Principle #4: The degree of co-operation of the public that can be secured diminishes proportionately to the necessity of the use of physical force.

Principle #5: Police seek and preserve public favor not by catering to public opinion, but by constantly demonstrating absolute impartial service to the law.

Principle #6: Police use physical force to the extent necessary to secure observance of the law or to restore order only when the exercise of persuasion, advice, and warning is found to be insufficient.

Principle #7: Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent upon every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.

Principle #8: Police should always direct their action strictly towards their functions, and never appear to usurp the powers of the judiciary.

Principle #9: The test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with it.