Longer Trains Desperately Needed On The BTS Sukhumvit Line

[diehard60]

Well one can always use a taxi? So there is an answer to the problem.

[anterian]

Would you pay double to travel in comfort? Then increase the price.

[davee58]

When it first opened, the Bangkok skytrain was a clean and fast alternative to the streets below, high quality travel.

Now it is dirty and overcrowded, almost as bad as the LRT in Manilla.

[markdoj]

Something I do know about: It takes a minimum of 18 months from order to delivery and testing of rolling stock, unless there is absolutely no changes to the design; this could be signalling, linespeed, etc. So, once again..... Thailand has not done that badly.

Mark, unfortunately, you're missing my main point...which was not to complain about the slowness of the new rail cars arrival..since I know such things always take time, probably moreso in Thailand...

But rather, to highlight, based on the details in the Siemens announcement posted above, that contrary to the supposed impediments you've cited above.... that BTS obviously has been planning since more than a year ago to move to 4 car trains on the Sukhumvit line... It's not just something that's cropped up unexpectedly in the wake of the Bearing expansion opening...

Obviously BTS thought they could make that move back then and thus ordered the new rail cars to allow it. The question is...in the meantime, what about the spare Siemens rail cars that were removed from service on the Silom line, and why, assuming they're available, they couldn't be used NOW to go to at least some 4 car trains.

Im not sure mate. Maybe there are other issues that we dont know about. Maybe they are not compatible? Maybe they dont even fit together, maybe the design is different, the braking system has been improved. It could be contractual, such as a defects period is affected or simply the supplier has not signed off on them to be used on a different line.

There could be a hundred reasons. All of which are possible.I know for sure many people both Thai and Western who are far more educated than me work on these things and if it was possible; they would be used.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Well, we do know they can move full 3-car trains over from Silom to Sukhumvit, because they've already done so....

Now, can they also add individual cars from the former Silom trains into the current Sukhumvit stock to go from 3 to 4 car sets??? It would be interesting for someone with BTS to answer that question, or explain, if they cannot.. why not?

[pacovl46]

Wow. How about making a call to the operators of the BTS line for some real news. That would have been a smart idea for a "freelance writer."

Here are opportune parts where he could have sought comment from BTS operators:

as BTS has made no recent mention of it. WHY NOT CALL THEM and ASK WHY?

so BTS may be reluctant to expand their service. WHY NOT ASK THEM?

Perhaps they have plans but have not announced them. This article is just a rant.

Just a rant??? Well, so is your comment!!! He points out the fricking obvious. Yeah, he could call. Would it change anything, though? I guess not. Someone should involve the media to put some public pressure on the operators of BTS. That's the only thing that could provoke any change.

Edited September 5, 2011 by pacovl46

[Max4243]

Since the opening of the Sukhumvit extension and the offer of a free ride from Bearingup to On Nut, those using from Bearing onwards to the city has increased and this added to the congestion problem already on the Sukhumvit line. I doubt the BTS operators took much action to increase the frequency or add more trains. Not that they have no extra trains, as one can see the number of trains parked at their Mor Chit station.

BTS operator may have some plans on hand to solve this congestion especially on the Sukhumvit line. BTS management should come out clean to explain the situation and their plans to solve this and should not just keep quite and hope the problem will go away. BMA governor should also take note and chip in to solve this situation. Lets hope he does.

[Max4243]

Well one can always use a taxi? So there is an answer to the problem.

You are right, but then with the traffic jams, its going to make your travelling time bad, besides the hefty cost. Well, there is another alternative - take the bus, but the jams would not go away either, although it is cheaper. There is always an answer to the problem and this will depend on how you want to travel from point A to B.

[khunken]

"Just a rant??? Well, so is your comment!!! He points out the fricking obvious. Yeah, he could call. Would it change anything, though? I guess not. Someone should involve the media to put some public pressure on the operators of BTS. That's the only thing that could provoke any change."

I totally agree with the last two sentences of the above post. If some of the more knowledgeable people here would write to the Bangkok Post & The Nation it might just prompt the BTS management to respond - they have been known to reply to letters in the past. Whether it will make a difference is anyboby's guess but it's worth a try.

[infernalman7]

Something I do know about: It takes a minimum of 18 months from order to delivery and testing of rolling stock, unless there is absolutely no changes to the design; this could be signalling, linespeed, etc. So, once again..... Thailand has not done that badly.

Mark, unfortunately, you're missing my main point...which was not to complain about the slowness of the new rail cars arrival..since I know such things always take time, probably moreso in Thailand...

But rather, to highlight, based on the details in the Siemens announcement posted above, that contrary to the supposed impediments you've cited above.... that BTS obviously has been planning since more than a year ago to move to 4 car trains on the Sukhumvit line... It's not just something that's cropped up unexpectedly in the wake of the Bearing expansion opening...

Obviously BTS thought they could make that move back then and thus ordered the new rail cars to allow it. The question is...in the meantime, what about the spare Siemens rail cars that were removed from service on the Silom line, and why, assuming they're available, they couldn't be used NOW to go to at least some 4 car trains.

Im not sure mate. Maybe there are other issues that we dont know about. Maybe they are not compatible? Maybe they dont even fit together, maybe the design is different, the braking system has been improved. It could be contractual, such as a defects period is affected or simply the supplier has not signed off on them to be used on a different line.

There could be a hundred reasons. All of which are possible.I know for sure many people both Thai and Western who are far more educated than me work on these things and if it was possible; they would be used.

BTS has just learned that they will have to stick with the much more expensive Siemens trains on Sukhumvit Lines. Siemens signalling system is completely closed, which means that the whole system has to be run with Siemens trains. Buying trains from other companies (like Alstrom or Bombardier) isn't an option at all.

But BTS went ahead on Silom Line to save cost and buy cheap trains from China. They had to change all their existing signalling system to Bombardier's. (The new boxes you see in the track on Silom Line). Throughout the transition, BTS had been suffering from incompatibilities and had to run the trains on manual mode many many times. And they decided against doing so on Sukhumvit Line this time. They're after more Siemens trains.

Buying Siemens means longer manufacturing times. But at least you get quality trains that are compatible with existing system.

Hope this answers some of the questions.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Buying Siemens means longer manufacturing times. But at least you get quality trains that are compatible with existing system.

Thanks for the interesting comments, Infernalman....

I was thinking during this thread's discussion, I'd LOVE to be a fly on the wall in the Siemens company and know what they really think about Thailand...

Recall the episode of the past year on the Airport Rail Link line where they had to shut down service temporarily because Siemens train parts were wearing out prematurely and the ARL/SRT supposedly didn't have enough funds to buy enough spare parts to keep in stock (perhaps in conjunction with the issue of WHY the parts were wearing out early and what/who was responsible for that, which has never been publicly explained).

Then, probably earlier in time, there was the BTS's decision to skip ordering the Silom trains from Siemens and instead go with the Chinese trains and all the operating problems that created. .... But now, BTS apparently is back to Siemens again for the future Sukhumvit line trains....

Something tells me, the German and Thai corporate cultures might not always mesh so well together...

Not forgetting, meanwhile, the recent episode with a jet aircraft that was impounded in Germany by the courts there because of a supposedly long unpaid public works road construction contract obligation in Bangkok....

[Tiffer]

Mark, Santi and others. Good points

In the UK, I used to bike to the train,

travel 2 hours to Waterloo,

queue to take the infamously crowded City Line to Bank and watch people videoing the massive queues every day,

then walk....

3hrs each way....

every day...

On the way back..? Sometimes standing on the train all the way home....

And the cost? A mere £5,450 a year hmmmm...

If you've been there, the BTS is just fine...

So, if the UK can live with an overcrowded system, why can't Bangers?

Now I ride a motorbike for my sins!

[BlackJack]

buy shares

[sydneyjed]

Well we can see why it's attracting 100,000 more a day when its for free till January on that section...you don't need to be Einstein to work that one out!!

Wow, shock horror!!!!

This has been happening on the MRT heading south into Asoke for years, the closer you are to Asoke, the more likely it is you may have to wait for 2 or more trains.

Going back to the BTS, start charging people to use the Bearing to On Nut section and see if the numbers drop then?

[Imkah]

Wow. How about making a call to the operators of the BTS line for some real news. That would have been a smart idea for a "freelance writer."

Here are opportune parts where he could have sought comment from BTS operators:

as BTS has made no recent mention of it. WHY NOT CALL THEM and ASK WHY?

so BTS may be reluctant to expand their service. WHY NOT ASK THEM?

Perhaps they have plans but have not announced them. This article is just a rant.

You're a proven newbie allright... First: an official spokeswoman/man will not give you any information of interest. That's not their job. Secondly: I found the information that only two trains are to be added during rush hour interesting if not surprising. 3: This is a site for mostly old British farts on a hot stone, complaining about everything Thai. We don't need newbies expecting effiency and transparency! Multi-tasking is way beyond what TV is about.

[planr]

As someone indirectly involved in the metro "industry" here, let me have a go at a few things that haven't been addressed clearly.

Both the airport link and the BTS need more trains, and rush hour is now shocking. Well done to the writer of this article for bringing publicity to a subject many just accept.

For what it's worth, the Airport Link (City AND Express) are both running at capacity in terms of the number of trains they have, meaning all the trains they have are in service, throughout the day. As many people pointed out, the BTS does have "spare" 3-car rolling stock from the Silom Line, but how much of that is actually available to be used on the Sukhumvit line (or whether it can be without upgrades to signaling, etc) are beyond my knowledge, and apparently others on TV who know the system a bit.

*complainer*

-the train driver drives like ''Khon Kab Tuk Tuk ''(bangkok tuk tuk driver). i feel like im in the rollercoaster everytime I take the train. life is full of dangerous! (( well, if it's about the track problem, i would not blame the driver)

*comparison*

anyone here experience subway and public transportation service in japan? IMO, they have good service even in rush hour and it way more convenience and safer.

1) The "drivers" in BTS trains are not "driving" the train. The system runs automatically. The drivers are there for safety reasons, same goes for the MRT. In a conversation I had with someone high up in the BTS and who came from the MTR in Hong Kong, it was mentioned that when humans "drive," such as the T transit system in Boston, the safety risks are greater than a well-designed automated system, such as the BTS is.

2) Yes, I have traveled around Tokyo on the metro there (and many other cities around the world), and I do not think there are any noticeable differences in safety. Perhaps with access you have a point, as land use planning and transport (e.g. metro) planning in Bangkok do not go hand in hand, so access to stations is provided on an ad hoc basis. If you mean access in terms of handicapped individuals, the BTS is sorely lacking, but so are systems in the "developed" world. Just look at CityRail in Sydney. If you mean something else by convenience, please share.

TiT! For technical problems, read CHEAP! Which is possibly why they are on the Silom line rather than the Sukhumvit one. MRT is eminently more efficient than BTS, but sadly, not always conveniently located. But BTS might already have extended trains in mind. Thai planning is paramount. After all, they took several decades of planning before building Suvarnabhumi, and they almost got it right.

But my concern is not the overcrowding per se. It is what happens when - not if - there is a major - or even a minor - incident on the track. Just how well trained and prepared are BTS staff? Do they actually receive ANY training in preparation for such an incident [accident]? Just how many injuries might be sustained or, heaven forbid, lives lost, while BTS was fiddling? Or are we expected to rest assured that it will never happen?

There is a very specific reason that the new 4-car trains run on the Silom line and not the Sukhumvit line. This reason is because the station at Saphan Taksin and the bridge over the Chaophraya between Saphan Taksin and Krung Thonburi stations can only accommodate one train at a time. This is primarily because the infrastructure was built within the confines of an already existing road bridge. The only way the BTS can attempt to cope with the demand on the Silom line is by introducing longer trains, short of an expensive, time-consuming retrofit of facilities at Saphan Taksin.

[planr]

The article is spot on.

Travelling by BTS is becoming more and more of nightmare and why they do not add more cars is beyond me. It can't be that much more expensive to run a train with 4 instead of 3 cars - a bit more maintenance cost but that should be about all.

Same reason you hear about boats capsizing that are way over maximum occupancy. The operators are not losing any money by packing more passengers on; they only stand to gain more money in ticket sales. Running more boats (or trains) would only be extra overhead for them.

This statement is incorrect and the amount of griping on TV alone is the evidence. If the BTS cannot provide the level of service its existing passengers have come to expect, they will find alternative modes. If they cannot provide the level of service new passengers expect (perhaps there are not many, but I imagine more than a few are taking free rides from points on the new extension who previously did not ride the BTS), then it will be difficult to attract more passengers in the future. The two combined, if left unattended for a long period, will create a widespread negative view of the BTS and growth in ridership will slow, or even decline. As a private entity, this is the last thing the BTS wants. While another TV member pointed out that tube fares in London may be high to control the amount of riders, that would not happen here for a variety of reasons, most importantly, the agreements between the BTS and BMA (Bangkok city govt) about setting fares and revenue sharing.

When a rail link, metro or any other type of connection is built anywhere in the world; there is a study made of the 'rider' numbers. ... Of course; these figures can only be estimated on an average over the time. ... BTS bases their requirements for travel on this average figure. Usually; the people who do this calculation are a very professional bunch of people who get the figure right, in the long run.

Mark: appreciate the input. And my comments are not intended to bitch at you.

But I believe the frustration most people are feeling here is that there is little or no information/responsiveness put forth by the very people whom we rely on to provide answers. The Airport Rail Link also had a "very professional bunch of people" who seemed to believe that ridership would be in the thousands for the express train. Day one of the grand opening in January, after six months of advertising and free rides, resulted in FOUR travelers! Whoever did that feasibility study should be sent to jail. And yet, the situation is only nominally better today after eight months, albeit at the expense of running the system at a very significant financial loss.

Mark is half correct and half... not entirely correct. The folks who do ridership forecasts are a very smart bunch, however two issues arise. One is that ridership forecasts are often "adjusted" to provide outcomes that please policymakers and are attractive to money lenders (to justify the financial feasibility of the project). The second, sometimes in conjunction with the first, sometimes not, is that the majority of ridership forecasts overestimate the number of riders in the short term (say 5 years from the start).

In the case of the Airport Rail Link, the City Line currently has about 40,000 riders per day and is coming close to initial projections, which I believe were around 50,000 pax per day in less than a year of opening. Let's wait and see what January 2012 brings. With respect to the Express Line, your "four passengers a day" is confounding the usage of Check-In facilities at the Makkasan terminal with actual riders on the Express Line, which I believe are about 1,500 per day at this point (well below expected numbers, for a variety of reasons --> this is a whole different can of worms).

[planr]

but lengthening each train will impact upon journey times substantially.

I'm not a transportation engineer...but I don't follow the above comment...

How would going from 3 to 4 train sets add "substantially" to journey times?

In addition to the comments Mark already made to clarify his comment, it is important to note that with each additional car you add to the train, dozens (at a minimum) of "new" riders are getting on and off the train at each stop vis a vis the 3-car train, thus the dwell time (the amount of time the train is stopped at the station) is going to increase. Maybe it is only 5 seconds per station, but that does noticeably impact the minimum headways (time between trains)

This BTS train crowding was obvious long ago. Thai are not capable of planning and ignored repeated observations for many years before. If I'm not mistaken BTS was acquired by the media company that does the advertising on the BTS stations and cars, so longer cars would provide additional channels for more advertising revenue. Together with added fares and additional advertising, this would be the business plan for purchasing additional cars, plus the Thai scheme of kickbacks to merchants at Emporium and Paragon should be more than enough funding and cash flow for at least two additional cars on each train. However, it will take the Thais another ten years to figure out how to split up the money and therefore never getting around to even thinking about customers, risk, and mass transit. Anyway, the elite all drive to work and around shopping so they would never be found dead in a BTS train no matter three or five car length. - noitom

The BTS Group is the parent company of the BTSC (train operator) and VGI Global Media, which is the advertising company you see in trains and at stations. The BTSC accounts for 63.1% of total Group revenue (note this doesn't include the money the make from the BRT operating concession), while VGI's BTS-related share of corporate revenue is 14.8%. In addition, based on numbers from the BTS Group's latest (2010/2011) annual report, which is publicly available on their website in English, advertising is much more profitable than operating a train. That said, this isn't anything new. If you are an investor seeking big returns, you don't buy a train. The rest of your post is an incoherent rant at Thai society... if you don't like it, don't come/stay here.

[markdoj]

In reply to you both:

Regarding the airport link ridership: Studies are done years in advance and are for a period of maybe 50 years. This is to enable a station to be used and not extended. I too think that the stations on the airport link are VERY big and over engineered for their purpose. However; the study was probably done years ago, when tourism was rising steadily and had been over the past 10 years. Since then we have seen tourism fall significantly, for many reasons. Some of which are Thailand's own doing. Airport Sieges, Bangkok riots etc. Some financial, which are the world's doing; such as the in crease of petrol and travellers cancelling or changing holidays to cheaper alternatives.

Who could have predicted this?

As I said..... Its probably a 50 year plan, maybe more. We would not like to see families displaced more than once, when land is required, would we?

Regarding headway.

Im not sure what the lengthy of route is on the BTS Maybe 20km or 15? As I said; Ive only used it, not worked on it.

You have 11 trainsets travelling between stations maybe 1km apart (approx) An average train is moving at 50km/hour (again Im not totally sure of this figure. So, by the time a train leaves a section, another train enters it..... This is the headway. Generally trains are required with a head way of 3 minutes to maintain journey times. So, to add a car will impact on that time. To add 11 cars per route each way will add 11 times that time.

I dont know the details but I would imagine there would be an overall journey time increase of upward of 10 minutes. This again is an estimate. I dont have details.

As I have also said; I dont work for BTS, so have nothing to gain by defending them.

From my own point of view; I am glad that Bangkok is expanding its services. I believe outside of Hong Kong, Singapore etc. the plans are the best in the world. Certainly first rate and I look forward to having them all open soon.

The issue with no information forthcoming is a Thai cultural thing...... I run a business here too, this is an issue for me daily, Im afraid.

I hope this helps?

Mark.

You understood everything correctly. Headway is the MAIN concern here.. something the public barely considers when they criticize any rail systems.

Especially for Airport Link. This is why frequency isn't really an option, especially when the trains are running on higher speeds, headway becomes more and more important. For those who complain that Airport Link needs more train, all I can say is that technically it can add only 2 more trains per hour and that's the maximum. Headway cannot be lower than 5 minutes for each train for the system, and you'll have to keep in mind that Express trains are also running on the very same track as the local Cityline trains.

The 50-year plan has been done for Airport Rail Link and the only solution is to add more and more cars to each train. The plan was that they will not increase the frequency at all, but they will run 4 car trains in the near future after the arrival of 2 more trains. After that, they will run a 4+3 car train in rush hours. (7-car train). If that isn't enough in 30 years? Then they will use 4+3+3 car trains. Hence why the stations are so massively long.

Thanks so much for these THOUGHTFUL and useful comments and observations. I was getting nauseous from all the simplistic racial bashing and mindless dribble. These types of comments and observations are the reason I come to read TVF. Thanks again ...

Thanks..... For those of you who are in any doubt as to the validity of the work that goes into choosing a company or supplier; I can assure you that in Thailand decisions are made on the basis of technical requirement, future engineering value and planning. All these items come before price. I am very involved in this process. I am an expert on delivery of the projects and advise on a specific area of rail delivery (Im a P6 Planner). I advice clients on the best approach and do that without having any information with regard to the finances, as do the other consultants, working with me in their areas of expertise.

There is no difference between this region and others throughout the world in respect of the technical information. All other aspects; I don't know.

I have worked in the UK and I find the process here a little more complicated, but basically; its the same. As I said; I rate the Thai system on par with Docklands in London. Its clean, well maintained and for the most part I have not had an issue all the time I have used it. Of course there will be problems, there always are when your planning for 30 years in the future. also; It needs to go to more places, that is obvious...... But while the political situation is such, these decisions are Ssssssllllooowww.

Just remember; it took the UK to get Thameslink off the ground and thats been going on for 8 years...... I worked on it in 2003.

Patience Farangs, please.

[markdoj]

In reply to you both:

Regarding the airport link ridership: Studies are done years in advance and are for a period of maybe 50 years. This is to enable a station to be used and not extended. I too think that the stations on the airport link are VERY big and over engineered for their purpose. However; the study was probably done years ago, when tourism was rising steadily and had been over the past 10 years. Since then we have seen tourism fall significantly, for many reasons. Some of which are Thailand's own doing. Airport Sieges, Bangkok riots etc. Some financial, which are the world's doing; such as the in crease of petrol and travellers cancelling or changing holidays to cheaper alternatives.

Who could have predicted this?

As I said..... Its probably a 50 year plan, maybe more. We would not like to see families displaced more than once, when land is required, would we?

Regarding headway.

Im not sure what the lengthy of route is on the BTS Maybe 20km or 15? As I said; Ive only used it, not worked on it.

You have 11 trainsets travelling between stations maybe 1km apart (approx) An average train is moving at 50km/hour (again Im not totally sure of this figure. So, by the time a train leaves a section, another train enters it..... This is the headway. Generally trains are required with a head way of 3 minutes to maintain journey times. So, to add a car will impact on that time. To add 11 cars per route each way will add 11 times that time.

I dont know the details but I would imagine there would be an overall journey time increase of upward of 10 minutes. This again is an estimate. I dont have details.

As I have also said; I dont work for BTS, so have nothing to gain by defending them.

From my own point of view; I am glad that Bangkok is expanding its services. I believe outside of Hong Kong, Singapore etc. the plans are the best in the world. Certainly first rate and I look forward to having them all open soon.

The issue with no information forthcoming is a Thai cultural thing...... I run a business here too, this is an issue for me daily, Im afraid.

I hope this helps?

Mark.

You understood everything correctly. Headway is the MAIN concern here.. something the public barely considers when they criticize any rail systems.

Especially for Airport Link. This is why frequency isn't really an option, especially when the trains are running on higher speeds, headway becomes more and more important. For those who complain that Airport Link needs more train, all I can say is that technically it can add only 2 more trains per hour and that's the maximum. Headway cannot be lower than 5 minutes for each train for the system, and you'll have to keep in mind that Express trains are also running on the very same track as the local Cityline trains.

The 50-year plan has been done for Airport Rail Link and the only solution is to add more and more cars to each train. The plan was that they will not increase the frequency at all, but they will run 4 car trains in the near future after the arrival of 2 more trains. After that, they will run a 4+3 car train in rush hours. (7-car train). If that isn't enough in 30 years? Then they will use 4+3+3 car trains. Hence why the stations are so massively long.

Thanks so much for these THOUGHTFUL and useful comments and observations. I was getting nauseous from all the simplistic racial bashing and mindless dribble. These types of comments and observations are the reason I come to read TVF. Thanks again ...

Thanks..... For those of you who are in any doubt as to the validity of the work that goes into choosing a company or supplier; I can assure you that in Thailand decisions are made on the basis of technical requirement, future engineering value and planning. All these items come before price. I am very involved in this process. I am an expert on delivery of the projects and advise on a specific area of rail delivery (Im a P6 Planner). I advice clients on the best approach and do that without having any information with regard to the finances, as do the other consultants, working with me in their areas of expertise.

There is no difference between this region and others throughout the world in respect of the technical information. All other aspects; I don't know.

I have worked in the UK and I find the process here a little more complicated, but basically; its the same. As I said; I rate the Thai system on par with Docklands in London. Its clean, well maintained and for the most part I have not had an issue all the time I have used it. Of course there will be problems, there always are when your planning for 30 years in the future. also; It needs to go to more places, that is obvious...... But while the political situation is such, these decisions are Ssssssllllooowww.

Just remember; it took the UK 10 years to get Thameslink off the ground and thats been going on for 8 years...... I worked on it in 2003.

Tiffer..... I have done the same journey from Epping to Wimbledone, Bow to Woking and Elephant & Castle to Luton. I take my hat off to rail companies, as I know what goes into maintenance. Someone is always late or overcrowded. What can you do?

Patience Farangs, please.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Interestlngly, the Wiki site has a pretty good info page on the BTS system and its history, including several failed/canceled starts prior to the current Skytrain line coming into development. It's well worth a read just for history purposes...

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/BTS_Skytrain

But it also contains this recap on the BTS train stock and acquisitions:

Rolling stock

The BTS Skytrain uses two variations of Electric Multiple Unit rolling stock. All operate on 1435 mm rail gauge (standard gauge). All trains have 4 doors on each side per car, an air-conditioning unit, and LCD monitors for public announcement and advertising. The power supply for all trains is at 750 V DC from the third rail.

Siemens Train

The rolling stock of BTS Skytrain, in use since the opening of the line in 1999, consist of 35 Siemens Modular Metro trains from Siemens AG. All trains have 3 cars, 2 motor cars and 1 trailer on center. The Sukhumvit line employs 20 trains, and the Silom Line has 15. To increase capacity, in October 2010, Siemens agreed to provide an extra car for each train, making them up to four cars.^[8]

The Silom Line cars have been modified to support a signaling system from Bombardier Transportation since the extension from Saphan Taksin to Wong Wian Yai.

Bombardier – Changchun trains

The BTSC ordered 12 new trains (12 sets of 4 cars) from Changchun Railway Vehicles Co. Ltd. based on the Bombardier MOVIA, though their design will be modified to the existing BTS's Siemens Modular Metro. The new trains were delivered in June 2010 ^[2] to serve on the Silom Line, which cannot increase train frequency because of a single track bottleneck at Saphan Taksin station, though the number of passengers increased after the Wong Wian Yai and Krung Thonburi stations were opened. These trains consist of 2 motor cars and 2 trailer cars and will feature LCD TVs for public announcements and advertising. An advanced digital voice announcement (DVA) and passenger information systems will be installed.

Note: the info above appears to not fully reflect the eventual decision to move some of the prior 3-car Silom Line Siemens trains over to the Sukhumvit line to meet service demands.

[markdoj]

Interestlngly, the Wiki site has a pretty good info page on the BTS system and its history, including several failed/canceled starts prior to the current Skytrain line coming into development. It's well worth a read just for history purposes...

https://secure.wikim...ki/BTS_Skytrain

But it also contains this recap on the BTS train stock and acquisitions:

Rolling stock

The BTS Skytrain uses two variations of Electric Multiple Unit rolling stock. All operate on 1435 mm rail gauge (standard gauge). All trains have 4 doors on each side per car, an air-conditioning unit, and LCD monitors for public announcement and advertising. The power supply for all trains is at 750 V DC from the third rail.

Siemens Train

The rolling stock of BTS Skytrain, in use since the opening of the line in 1999, consist of 35 Siemens Modular Metro trains from Siemens AG. All trains have 3 cars, 2 motor cars and 1 trailer on center. The Sukhumvit line employs 20 trains, and the Silom Line has 15. To increase capacity, in October 2010, Siemens agreed to provide an extra car for each train, making them up to four cars.^[8]

The Silom Line cars have been modified to support a signaling system from Bombardier Transportation since the extension from Saphan Taksin to Wong Wian Yai.

Bombardier – Changchun trains

The BTSC ordered 12 new trains (12 sets of 4 cars) from Changchun Railway Vehicles Co. Ltd. based on the Bombardier MOVIA, though their design will be modified to the existing BTS's Siemens Modular Metro. The new trains were delivered in June 2010 ^[2] to serve on the Silom Line, which cannot increase train frequency because of a single track bottleneck at Saphan Taksin station, though the number of passengers increased after the Wong Wian Yai and Krung Thonburi stations were opened. These trains consist of 2 motor cars and 2 trailer cars and will feature LCD TVs for public announcements and advertising. An advanced digital voice announcement (DVA) and passenger information systems will be installed.

Note: the info above appears to not fully reflect the eventual decision to move some of the prior 3-car Silom Line Siemens trains over to the Sukhumvit line to meet service demands.

Your headway is only as good as the speed of the train through that bottle neck..... Basically; to add a train to an already crowded schedule of sections would be causing even more delays, resulting in agitation of passengers. Not good for the safety of trains, at all.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Noticed this news re Changchun, the manufacturer of the new Silom Line BTS trains, from less than one month ago:

Chinese bullet trains pulled over 'flaws'

More than 50 bullet trains on a new fast link between Beijing and Shanghai will be recalled because of "flaws", their manufacturer said Friday, in a fresh blow for China's high-speed rail industry.

The move to pull 54 trains from the flagship line came a day after Beijing said it was suspending approval of new rail projects and cutting speeds on newly-laid track after a deadly collision of two high-speed trains last month.The state-owned company said the recall would allow it to analyse problems that have plagued train services on the new line, which was built at a cost of $33 billion and only opened on June 30.

"China CNR Corp... is recalling 54 CRH380BL bullet trains produced by our subsidiaries that are already in operation to systematically analyse causes of flaws," the firm said in a statement filed with the Shanghai stock exchange.

The recall would allow it to "conduct an overhaul to ensure their quality and safety," said the statement, which was approved by the railway ministry.

It will affect around a quarter of services on the new line, which has suffered a series of delays and power cuts since its launch.

China's government has made the construction of the world's biggest high-speed rail network a key political priority and last month's crash, combined with problems on the Beijing-Shanghai link, was a major embarrassment.

The accident killed 40 people and sparked a public outcry amid allegations the government had disregarded safety concerns in its rush for growth.

......................

On Friday, the official China Daily newspaper quoted Luo Lin, the government minister heading the investigation team, as saying the accident was "completely avoidable" and likely caused by design defects.

State-owned China CNR Corp said earlier this week that the railway ministry had ordered it to halt shipments of the same train model as that involved in the recall after problems caused delays on the Beijing-Shanghai link.

The company said an automatic braking system was to blame.

The trains, which were made by CNR unit Changchun Railway Vehicles Co, were installed with sensors that sent alerts to automatically slow the train down, it said.

Edited September 5, 2011 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[zakk9]

Something is not working properly on the Baering extension. Today, the train I was riding had 7 unscheduled stop between Baering and On Nuch, making the journey to Ploenchit take 40 minutes instead of 20. I have previously been told that Siemens actually lost the contract for the signalling system on the extension for a couple of TiT reasons. If that is the case, and if it's the cause for the recurring stops and delays, BTS is in for a bumpy road ahead.

The major construction works for the extension were completed around two years ago and the opening delayed around 18 months (there was a huge banner in Bang Na for several months declaring that it would open early 2010). If this is going to be the way Bangkok builds a much needed public transport system, it might not be finished before floods and land erosion floats the whole city into the sea

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

There is no difference between this region and others throughout the world in respect of the technical information. All other aspects; I don't know.

Right, you don't know.

Your very narrow comment above may be true, or it may not be, as regards how transit projects are developed in Thailand...

But either way, it's only one slice of the pie, as it also takes competent administration, good design work, proper procurement, quality construction and eventually good operating practices to make a transit system run properly. And trying to get all those things working together in an environment like Thailand where political and self-interest considerations constantly are meddling seems to be quite a chore.

My personal favorite is the explanation that was given back in Sept. 2009 as to why the Bearing extension to the Sukhumvit Line was so long in opening after construction was basically completed on the entire route... save for timely acquisition of the line's signaling system.

Testing on the BTS Sukhumvit line extension will probably be pushed back until late 2011 due to delays in the procurement of signalling and electrical systems, says deputy Bangkok governor Teerachon Manomaipibul.

Procurement should have taken place nine months ago if the original December 2010 deadline for the test run was to be met. But purchasing of the operating systems for the 5km extension from Onnuj to Soi Baring, or Sukhumvit Soi 107, has not been approved yet, said Mr Teerachon, who is responsible for mass transit projects.

The senior City Hall official responsible for making the purchase has apparently stalled the scheme over fears of being investigated if something went wrong with the purchase, he said. The official in question is due to retire and does not want to take risks despite being told the scheme is strictly in line with regulations, said Mr Teerachon.

Former city clerk Khunying Nathanon Thavisin was accused of irregularities over the purchase of fire trucks and boats by the Bangkok Metropolitan Administration. City Hall retroactively fired her from the post this week.

Edited September 5, 2011 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[cutter007]

When a rail link, metro or any other type of connection is built anywhere in the world; there is a study made of the 'rider' numbers. Each year this increases hopefully and as more and more connections are added, then more trains or a more frequent service is planned. Of course; these figures can only be estimated on an average over the time. It is inevitable that rider figures are going to be high at the beginning of a new connection. Usually; these figures fall with time and then level to an average over the coming years.

BTS bases their requirements for travel on this average figure. Usually; the people who do this calculation are a very professional bunch of people who get the figure right, in the long run.

Gotta disagree with you Mark, you info about the train tech knowledge sounds good, not so great on the observation of BTS management,

I would call these muppets a lot of things but professional is not one of them.

They are adding 3 - 4 stations supposedly going online next year on the Silom line.

These "professional" BTS management and traffic engineers, are saying hey lets pack people on for 3 to 4 hours a day in dangerous conditions, because passenger traffic is likely to fall off and stabilize in the next 6 - 12 months on the Suk line.

Instead of saying, hey probably if traffic ever does fall off a bit on the Suk line, to a lower average, we will be just in time to shift those cars

over to the Silom line in anticipation of the surge when we those additional stations online.

An intern at the New York subway system could figure that one out, but then again that same kid might be over qualified as

MD for BTSC.

I talked to one guy at BTSC, although he was administration and not engineering, he was still about as clueless as you could get. He didn't even understand basic concepts like traffic growth on a line will increase exponentially not linearly when new stations are added.

I tried present simply that increasing 3 stations on a line with 6 existing stations, will not generate the same traffic growth,

as adding 3 stations on a line with 9 existing stations.

And estimating the growth patterns wouldn't require anything more than high school calculus.

[Garry]

a sign of things to come..........

Edited September 5, 2011 by Garry

[meelousee]

One would think that adding cars would be the logical solution.

First look at the design of those trains. The BTS Sukhumvit line has 3 short S curves and 4 long angle curves.

Adding more cars is not the answer. If they did the results will be bent wheels, broken axials and warped track then no train until repairs.

The Ital Thai strikes again. The Sky train designed by Japan in Manila is a good example of how to build one based on the idea to Stack-em and Pack-em they are over crowded too. But during Christmas they add 4 cars to each train because they can and it cost less than running extra trains which at times they do.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

For those of you who are in any doubt as to the validity of the work that goes into choosing a company or supplier; I can assure you that in Thailand decisions are made on the basis of technical requirement, future engineering value and planning. All these items come before price.

As for that notion, I'm reminded of one of the posts by one of our more knowledgeable transit members on the problems with the Wong Wian Yai extension and the Silom Line:

Two things. The BMA funded and contracted the Wong Wian Yai ext. They subsequently contracted the BTS to run it. Your complaint really needs to be addressed to the BMA.

Secondly, the main problem going on is that the BMA tendered and awarded the contract for the systems & electrics to a non-Siemens system contractor as it was cheaper (Siemens supplied the systems and electrics for the original lines). It is meant to be compatible but there are problems at the points and turnouts between both systems. You see this particularly when a train has to stop for a period of time.

So you need ot be venting your anger at the BMA.

The single platform at Saphan Taksin does not help but the reality is that if there were no problems with the systems/electrics then the service could have a more frequent headway. Remember, prior to the ext opening headways at peak were 2.45mins ......now they are 5 mins all the time!

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Adding more cars is not the answer. If they did the results will be bent wheels, broken axials and warped track then no train until repairs.

Maybe you'd better inform BTS of your suspicions, because they seem to have a different idea...

Berlin, Germany, 2010-Nov-22

Bangkok Mass Transit System Public Company Limited (BTSC) has placed a EUR42 million order with Siemens Mobility for another 35 trailer cars for the Thai capital’s elevated rapid transit system, BTS Skytrain. Train service on the Sukhumvit Line is to start gradually from the end of 2012.

The newly ordered trailer cars are to be put into service successively on the Sukhumvit Line as of the end of 2012 and lengthen the trains already in operation from 3-car to 4-car multiple units. This increase in capacity is necessary in order to cope with the dramatic rise in ridership. Currently, the BTS system transports about 460,000 people per day on the Sukhumvit Line. Each car has 4seats and standing room for 240 persons. The 750 V DC power supply comes from the conductor rail. The trailer cars are to be pre-assembled at the Siemens plant in Vienna, Austria and undergo final assembly in Bangkok. The delivery of these cars is to continue into 2013.