All Bangkok Districts To Be Flooded If Klong Sam Wa's Sluice Gate Further Opened: Deputy Governor

[jaidam]

Can it be, that some of those who are already flooded and/ or the poor you so bravely fight for, are paying no tax at all?

Just asking....

Even the poorest of the poorest pay tax. Even children not having income pay tax. Tax is not only paid by the rich. tax is universal. Even a farang pay tax. The tax is cal VAT. My kids pay tax everyday when they buy ice-cream.

Please do not go into believing that your tax money is better than the poor's tax money.

Sorry, let me rephrase: Can it be, that some of those who are already flooded and/ or the poor you so bravely fight for, are paying no incometax at all?

I don't go into any believing it's better money- but I strongly believe the "rich" are paying more money!

At least the floods have taken her mind off the IMF loans and how somebody dear to her paid them off from their own pocket.

[rogerdee123]

So, is there a valid reason to save Bangkok? Aside from wanting my job to still exist when I head back there, I have no personal ax to grind. I am neither waist deep in stinking floodwater nor am I nervously awaiting the flood to arrive.

The total population of the flooded provinces on the Chao Phraya above Bankok is about 8 million. Now, these provinces are not entirely flooded, I drove through most of them a few days ago and large areas have either drained already or escaped flooding entirely. So, let's estimate that 50% of these people are currently flooded (a very high estimate IMHO). That's 4 million people. Now, does anyone think that the government is doing a good job helping these people? Does anyone honestly think that the government will do a good job helping these people recover?

The official population of Bangkok is about 9 million. The eastern and western parts of Bangkok that are currently being flooded are much less densely populated than the central area, so let's say that 2 million people are currently flooded or will soon be flooded. That still leaves about 7 million people that the BMA is trying to save from flooding. If they are not successful the number of people who are unable to continue their daily lives will more than double. If the government is doing a poor job now, how do you think things will be with twice as many people needing assistance while the government is busy dealing with flood waters in their own buildings?

Saving Bangkok is undoubtedly worsening and prolonging the suffering of the people to the north, east and west of Bangkok, but the government seems to have made the decision that not saving Bangkok would lead to a situation that they simply could not cope with.

You're right. Simply from the population density and the disaster management point of view it would be almost criminal to flood Bangkok if it can be avoided.

The issues of taxes and economy are factors in the reality of the situation .... but the issue should be minimizing the negative humanitarian effects and protecting as many people as possible as well as protecting life saving resources/assets such as hospitals, necessary roads, evacuation centers, etc

The issues of tax base, factories, cattle and chicken ranches, rice fields, economy, etc etc etc should all be secondary to protecting people and minimizing fatalities.

I know MOST people here who want the flood gates opened don't wish any harm to people in Bangkok or anywhere else. But the canal system that exists is complicated and doesn't work the way it was designed to anyway because the land area that comprises Bangkok and it's immediate suburbs has subsided/sunk as the underground water has been pumped out over the past decades and probably still is being pumped out now in various parts of the city, even though it's illegal (I think). As a result the canals are not level. In one place the water may be one meter below the top of the canal and in another place (same canal) the water could be over-flowing.

[Gippy]

90cm deep on the road at Vibhavadi hospital now, increasing levels at Don Mueang. The gate is starting to look like a diversion tactic, the new 'big bag' sandbag wall is where the real action is. If that doesn't work inner BKK is gonna get it open gates or not.

[farang000999]

Remember, the people who live in Central Bangkok are the ones who subsidize much of the country via tax receipts.

What is this obsession with there only being 'rich' tax payers in the centre of Bangkok? For a start, seriously rich people probably find a way to avoid paying tax anyway! My flooded moo ban in the northern burbs is home to heads of government departments, owners of large companies and SME's exporting goods all over the world. We live in a 5 million baht house and it's a fishing shack compared to 75% of the houses in our area. We pay our share of taxes thank you.

don't put words in my mouth, i never said only. the point remains, allowing central bangkok to flood could have severe economic repercussions.

[OzMick]

While I may not agree with the actions of these people in forcing open flood gates and tearing down barriers to try and get some relief from the flooding in their area, I can fully understand their anger and frustration.

These people are tired of the property, their houses and their lives being destroyed just save precious Bangkok year after year. How would you feel if your moo ban was flooded year in and year out just to so the one next to you could be saved? If you can imagine that, then you can understand these people and their actions.

While Yingluck & Company can be, and should be, blamed for the mismanagement of this situation, they can't be blamed for the flood itself. And no one can convince me that any other government could/would do a better job.

For to many years the rich and powerful, which means about .05% of the population, have been allowed to destroy what is, supposedly, protected forest areas to build their mansions and resorts, thereby destroying the ecological balance that Mother Nature provided. For too many years these same people have built, or have allowed to be built, factories, housing and condo projects, and other structures in low lying areas that block the natural flow of water, with zero forethought of what might happen. For too many years the experts, both Thai and foreign, have done studies, made recommendations, and issued serious warnings about what could/would happen, but since there was no "graft" or "corruption" money in it for anyone, they were ignored.

If anyone is to blame for this situation it is EVERY member of EVERY government for the past 50+ years since the last flood for not doing what was necessary to prevent it from happening again.

The one good thing from this is now maybe, just maybe, they will listen to the experts and finally do what needs to be done for ALL of Thailand, and not just Bangkok. We can only hope.

"These people are tired of the property, their houses and their lives being destroyed just save precious Bangkok year after year. "

They could move. Repeating the same action without positive result is a sign of idiocy.

You have either GOT to be joking, or your comment ranks in my Top Ten of Most Asinine Things to come from a Supposedly Intelligent Human Being!

We're not talking about a couple of dozen families, but a few HUNDRED THOUSAND people who have houses, farms and families that have been there for generations in many cases. And instead of governments for the past 50+ years doing something so these people won't be flooded year after year just to save BKK, you think they should just move. How about if a few hundred of them move to YOUR house. I'm sure you'd be happy to accommodate them. After all it was your "elitist snob" suggestion they should just uproot their lives so they won't be bothered by such trivial things as MAJOR FLOODS anymore.

I've seen a lot of ignorant, racist and just plain stupid comments on this forum over the past 4 years, but yours about them "moving" has got to be #1. If there really is such a thing as Karma and reincarnation, justice would be for you to come back in your next life as one of these people.

I'll leave the petty ignorance of the name calling alone - as I was perfectly serious. It makes no difference to me how many thousand people do or for how long they have done it, living in a flood zone and getting regularly flooded out is an act of idiocy. Anybody with any sense would pack up and move, and leave the other idiots to it.

"the government should do something!" well they aren't are they, so that leaves the guy with wet feet to find somewhere dry to live and work. Thailand is a big place (they don't have to live with me or anybody else), there is work and accommodation available in non-flooding areas, and if people took the initiative to move, labour shortages would put pressure on employers and government to fix the problem. While they tolerate what they have, THERE WILL BE NO CHANGE!

If you live in area that gets regularly flooded, ask yourself "Why?"

BTW there is no such thing as karma, it's just another way to defer doing something and hoping somebody else will sort your problems.

[ResX]

I hope they know what they are doing. Sluice gates are deadly weapons. Correct me if I'm wrong. Last time when they opened sluice gates at the Bhumibol, Sirkit and a few more dams, Thailand are in this mess.

I'm really hope that the flood control authorities in Thailand realized by now that flood control strategy is also can be called the strategy to keep that sluice gates closed.

[rogerdee123]

Read the following ....

Agriculture Minister Thira estimates it should take 40 days to drain 2,000 cubic m of water in wester BKK out to sea /TANN

That's an amazing 50 cubic meters per day !! Surely this is a mis-print or translation error.

Or is it?

[DP25]

Read the following ....

Agriculture Minister Thira estimates it should take 40 days to drain 2,000 cubic m of water in wester BKK out to sea /TANN

That's an amazing 50 cubic meters per day !! Surely this is a mis-print or translation error.

Or is it?

Supposed to be 2 billion cubic meters, so 50 million per day. Maybe was written as 2,000 million originally

Edited November 2, 2011 by DP25

[Richbrown]

I dont know if this was said before or not, I heard that air asia left one of their planes at the old airport that is now flooded. Why didnt they just fly it away somewhere like 2 weeks ago.

[tlansford]

Normally if people would forcibly try to do major damage to a major city like Bangkok they'd be branded terrorists....

The Reds who damaged Bkk in Spring '09 and Spring '10 were terrorists in every sense of the word (remember commandeering LP gas truck? .....and raiding hospital?). Yet Thais like them, and voted their leaders in to political power positions months later. The message: It's ok to be a Thai terrorist, particularly if it relates to damaging Bkk.

Terrorists?

not hardly.

[joe beets]

Normally if people would forcibly try to do major damage to a major city like Bangkok they'd be branded terrorists....

The Reds who damaged Bkk in Spring '09 and Spring '10 were terrorists in every sense of the word (remember commandeering LP gas truck? .....and raiding hospital?). Yet Thais like them, and voted their leaders in to political power positions months later. The message: It's ok to be a Thai terrorist, particularly if it relates to damaging Bkk.

Terrorists?

not hardly.

Well argued!

[skippybangkok]

Can it be, that some of those who are already flooded and/ or the poor you so bravely fight for, are paying no tax at all?

Just asking....

Even the poorest of the poorest pay tax. Even children not having income pay tax. Tax is not only paid by the rich. tax is universal. Even a farang pay tax. The tax is cal VAT. My kids pay tax everyday when they buy ice-cream.

Please do not go into believing that your tax money is better than the poor's tax money.

looks like someone does not know what he is talking about, unless you consider VAT as the tax.

[elcent]

[whybother]

I dont know if this was said before or not, I heard that air asia left one of their planes at the old airport that is now flooded. Why didnt they just fly it away somewhere like 2 weeks ago.

I'm sure they did. I haven't seen or heard (besides ruomours) that there were working aircraft left at DM. Until I see evidence, I wouldn't believe the rumours.

[whybother]

<snipped graphic>

From that, it would seem that the Bangkok flood walls had nothing to do with most of the flooding.

[YellowFeverCAD]

Normally if people would forcibly try to do major damage to a major city like Bangkok they'd be branded terrorists....

The Reds who damaged Bkk in Spring '09 and Spring '10 were terrorists in every sense of the word (remember commandeering LP gas truck? .....and raiding hospital?). Yet Thais like them, and voted their leaders in to political power positions months later. The message: It's ok to be a Thai terrorist, particularly if it relates to damaging Bkk.

Terrorists?

not hardly.

Well argued!

trust me he did the best he could, there is no defense for those actions that any sane human being would accept. So in keeping with his usual RED or DEAD he had to throw something out there to earn his paycheque.

[ResX]

I am in one of those villages that is flood in Khlong Si, Lam Luk Ka and yes to limit the scope of the floods would be better than to spread it evenly.

You get the point. Unfortunately those two dams, at least, Bhumibol & Sirkit dams did not apply the same rule. They passed all the flood water of their owns to the downstream using the what so called sluice gates. As a result,.... I think you know better.

The flood water shall be kept longer inside those two reservoirs (Bhunibol & Sirkit dams). Otherwise the downstream will keep it longer. You don't want ti see this to happen. Bit it just happened.

[rubl]

I am in one of those villages that is flood in Khlong Si, Lam Luk Ka and yes to limit the scope of the floods would be better than to spread it evenly.

You get the point. Unfortunately those two dams, at least, Bhumibol & Sirkit dams did not apply the same rule. They passed all the flood water of their owns to the downstream using the what so called sluice gates. As a result,.... I think you know better.

The flood water shall be kept longer inside those two reservoirs (Bhunibol & Sirkit dams). Otherwise the downstream will keep it longer. You don't want ti see this to happen. Bit it just happened.

Can/t find the graphics, but one poster posted data of the Royal Irrigation Department suggesting the three main dams released water from September (August?) and still the water level in the dams rose to close to 90++%.

This from two weeks ago

"Bhumibol Dam closes emergency spillway"

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingnews/Bhumibol-Dam-closes-emergency-spillway-30167585.html

The picture is less clear than one would think at first glance

[ResX]

I am in one of those villages that is flood in Khlong Si, Lam Luk Ka and yes to limit the scope of the floods would be better than to spread it evenly.

You get the point. Unfortunately those two dams, at least, Bhumibol & Sirkit dams did not apply the same rule. They passed all the flood water of their owns to the downstream using the what so called sluice gates. As a result,.... I think you know better.

The flood water shall be kept longer inside those two reservoirs (Bhunibol & Sirkit dams). Otherwise the downstream will keep it longer. You don't want ti see this to happen. Bit it just happened.

Can/t find the graphics, but one poster posted data of the Royal Irrigation Department suggesting the three main dams released water from September (August?) and still the water level in the dams rose to close to 90++%.

http://www.thaivisa....ost__p__4729889

This from two weeks ago

"Bhumibol Dam closes emergency spillway"

http://www.nationmul...y-30167585.html

The picture is less clear than one would think at first glance

First of all, sorry to say that almost all (probably all) the units that described water discharge and quantity in the first article don't make sense at all. E.g. Bhumibol dam can't discharge 20million cubic meter per second even if half of its main dam structure was removed and the water level is set at the maximum level. The maximum sluice gates discharge for Bhumibol, as I can recall is around 3, 200 cubic meter per second. Power generation can discharge probably around 500-700 cubic meter per second.

Secondly, the Irrigation Department should mentioned also a series of cloud seeding that was carried out in Sept 2011. It is wiser to give chance to the natural rainfall during rainy season to fill up any of your dam. The cloud seeding can be done if the nature fails us. But give it a chance first.

Thirdly, if I were the one who designed the flood control measure for the Bhumibol dam I will ensure to have reserve capacity (unfilled) by not less than 30% or about 3billion cubic meter by 1st October every year. This figure holds if the Bhumibol can store temporarily (for at least 1 month) of flood water up to 2-3billion cubic meter. I think Bhumibol dam does not have this requirement (That is one of the reasons that made the flood even worse). Therefore, I have to account for "the weakness of what so call water release via sluice gates" by adding another 1-1.5billion cubic meter. So, the total reserve capacity (unfilled) by the 1st of October 2011 will be 4-4.5billion cubic meter.

Since the Bhumibol dam has the maximum storage of close to 10 billion cubic meter, then even the flood did not come as predicted, the remaining storage of about 6 billion cubic meter can be used to preserve its the normal functions of the dam for another one more year assuming the worst case scenario a complete drought over the next one year. Power generation will be compromise a bit owing to low dam water level. The rest of its functions can be preserved for another one year. Note that the total annual water demands for all the interested parties that Bhumibol can provide cannot be greater than 6.6 billion cubic meter, i.e. the long term annual average rainfall for Bhumibol catchment.

I would say this is the least that I would have done.

Edited November 2, 2011 by ResX

[Markaew]

(Thursday) Water has reached the Major Cinema in Lad Phrao and people are being bused out. Not very far from the Lad Phrao MRT now.

[zorro1]

So have the authorities agreed to flood central Bangkok or not?

[whybother]

So have the authorities agreed to flood central Bangkok or not?

There is a general agreement not to come to an agreement.

[robblok]

So have the authorities agreed to flood central Bangkok or not?

There is a general agreement not to come to an agreement.

According to the scare mongers BKK should already be flooded by now because of this. I see no proof so far. All the parts of BKK that are flooded are from the runoff not from this gate. The impact is probably minor and it was all a big power play. Its been now 2 days and there were messages saying if not stopped within 1 and 1/2 day BKK was doomed.

[zorro1]

So have the authorities agreed to flood central Bangkok or not?

There is a general agreement not to come to an agreement.

LOL and where exactly is it? central Bangkok that is. I always thought it was between soi4 and Asoke bts

[sparebox2]

Can it be, that some of those who are already flooded and/ or the poor you so bravely fight for, are paying no tax at all?

Just asking....

Even the poorest of the poorest pay tax. Even children not having income pay tax. Tax is not only paid by the rich. tax is universal. Even a farang pay tax. The tax is cal VAT. My kids pay tax everyday when they buy ice-cream.

Please do not go into believing that your tax money is better than the poor's tax money.

looks like someone does not know what he is talking about, unless you consider VAT as the tax.

is VAT a kind of tax?

What does VAT stand for ?

[robblok]

Can it be, that some of those who are already flooded and/ or the poor you so bravely fight for, are paying no tax at all?

Just asking....

Even the poorest of the poorest pay tax. Even children not having income pay tax. Tax is not only paid by the rich. tax is universal. Even a farang pay tax. The tax is cal VAT. My kids pay tax everyday when they buy ice-cream.

Please do not go into believing that your tax money is better than the poor's tax money.

looks like someone does not know what he is talking about, unless you consider VAT as the tax.

is VAT a kind of tax?

What does VAT stand for ?

VAT is a tax and they get more income out of VAT then income tax. The poor might even pay more VAT altogether as there are more poor then rich people even if they spend less. I might be wrong because there are also mom and pop shops without tax. But to say the poor don't pay tax is crazy.

[whybother]

According to the scare mongers BKK should already be flooded by now because of this. I see no proof so far. All the parts of BKK that are flooded are from the runoff not from this gate. The impact is probably minor and it was all a big power play. Its been now 2 days and there were messages saying if not stopped within 1 and 1/2 day BKK was doomed.

There were a number of other gates that were closed when this gate was opened. Flooding HAS occurred downstream from this gate, and another industrial estate is under serious threat. Suvarnabhumi is not much farther. And that's just one gate being opened a bit more than it already was.

Look how slowly the water has moved down Vipivhardi from Don Mueang. It's taken a week and new areas south of Don Mueang are only just starting to flood.

The idea that opening all the gates and flooding Bangkok will get it ALL over quicker is ridiculous. It will take a week or two just for the water to flood through Bangkok, and then how much longer to get it out. How well are they doing getting the water out of Don Mueang?

[robblok]

According to the scare mongers BKK should already be flooded by now because of this. I see no proof so far. All the parts of BKK that are flooded are from the runoff not from this gate. The impact is probably minor and it was all a big power play. Its been now 2 days and there were messages saying if not stopped within 1 and 1/2 day BKK was doomed.

There were a number of other gates that were closed when this gate was opened. Flooding HAS occurred downstream from this gate, and another industrial estate is under serious threat. Suvarnabhumi is not much farther. And that's just one gate being opened a bit more than it already was.

Look how slowly the water has moved down Vipivhardi from Don Mueang. It's taken a week and new areas south of Don Mueang are only just starting to flood.

The idea that opening all the gates and flooding Bangkok will get it ALL over quicker is ridiculous. It will take a week or two just for the water to flood through Bangkok, and then how much longer to get it out. How well are they doing getting the water out of Don Mueang?

I am sure i read somewhere here that the governor said in 1 1/2 everything would be flooded if this gate was not closed. It did not happen.. so did he overreact.. i think so. His prediction did not come true.

Did i write here i want to flood BKK ? nope just have them take as much water as possible and yes take some risks. It seems the governor does not want any risks and tries to scare ppl. His view is let other stay in the water i don't like risks.

Some minor flooding has happened.. wow.. he was wrong and others were right. This just shows me that it was a power play.

So if they could still control it with other gates then it was still not as critical as he said. Just admit that he was scaring people to retain power.

And yes the water is moving real slow. I know im living in it. You don't have to tell me how slow it goes. Levels slowly dropping here but at this rate it will take well over a month to get dry feet here. ( maybe a week more to have dry feet in my home).

[whybother]

I am sure i read somewhere here that the governor said in 1 1/2 everything would be flooded if this gate was not closed. It did not happen.. so did he overreact.. i think so. His prediction did not come true.

Did i write here i want to flood BKK ? nope just have them take as much water as possible and yes take some risks. It seems the governor does not want any risks and tries to scare ppl. His view is let other stay in the water i don't like risks.

Some minor flooding has happened.. wow.. he was wrong and others were right. This just shows me that it was a power play.

So if they could still control it with other gates then it was still not as critical as he said. Just admit that he was scaring people to retain power.

And yes the water is moving real slow. I know im living in it. You don't have to tell me how slow it goes. Levels slowly dropping here but at this rate it will take well over a month to get dry feet here. ( maybe a week more to have dry feet in my home).

Deputy Bangkok Governor Thirachon Manopaipibul said Tuesday that if the sluice gate of Klong Samwa is lifted to be one metre wide as demanded by angry local residents, all Bangkok could be flooded.

BKK governor: opening Sam Wa Canal sluice gate by 1m yesterday still sees water level on northern side remain high and increase by 6cm

BKK governor: problems faced by residents unhappy with non-opening of Sam Wa sluice gate shows the gate's closure isn't the problem

BKK governor: happy with cooperation from FROC in closure of sluice gates at Rangsit 8-10 canals; eastern BKK may not be affected now

BKK governor: flooding came from Rangsit 8-10 canals; Bangchan Industrial Estate may be affected if sluice gates not closed

Water arrives at Min Buri Prison; Suwinthawong Road under 50cm water; ... /MCOT

"take as much water as possible" - how much water is possible? One gate that they've opened more is causing flooding downstream. Where do you draw the line? Should it all be flooded like DM? Has that made any difference on the other side of the flood defences?

We'll see how minor the flooding is. 50cm isn't much, but if there wasn't the kicking and screaming by the governor, could it have been worse? If another industrial estate is flooded, who will that help?

Opening one gate by a bit and closing others isn't going to help anyone upstream, but it does flood areas downstream.

[robblok]

I am sure i read somewhere here that the governor said in 1 1/2 everything would be flooded if this gate was not closed. It did not happen.. so did he overreact.. i think so. His prediction did not come true.

Did i write here i want to flood BKK ? nope just have them take as much water as possible and yes take some risks. It seems the governor does not want any risks and tries to scare ppl. His view is let other stay in the water i don't like risks.

Some minor flooding has happened.. wow.. he was wrong and others were right. This just shows me that it was a power play.

So if they could still control it with other gates then it was still not as critical as he said. Just admit that he was scaring people to retain power.

And yes the water is moving real slow. I know im living in it. You don't have to tell me how slow it goes. Levels slowly dropping here but at this rate it will take well over a month to get dry feet here. ( maybe a week more to have dry feet in my home).

Deputy Bangkok Governor Thirachon Manopaipibul said Tuesday that if the sluice gate of Klong Samwa is lifted to be one metre wide as demanded by angry local residents, all Bangkok could be flooded.

BKK governor: opening Sam Wa Canal sluice gate by 1m yesterday still sees water level on northern side remain high and increase by 6cm

BKK governor: problems faced by residents unhappy with non-opening of Sam Wa sluice gate shows the gate's closure isn't the problem

BKK governor: happy with cooperation from FROC in closure of sluice gates at Rangsit 8-10 canals; eastern BKK may not be affected now

BKK governor: flooding came from Rangsit 8-10 canals; Bangchan Industrial Estate may be affected if sluice gates not closed

Water arrives at Min Buri Prison; Suwinthawong Road under 50cm water; ... /MCOT

"take as much water as possible" - how much water is possible? One gate that they've opened more is causing flooding downstream. Where do you draw the line? Should it all be flooded like DM? Has that made any difference on the other side of the flood defences?

We'll see how minor the flooding is. 50cm isn't much, but if there wasn't the kicking and screaming by the governor, could it have been worse? If another industrial estate is flooded, who will that help?

Opening one gate by a bit and closing others isn't going to help anyone upstream, but it does flood areas downstream.

You went totally past my point that the governor was scare mongering. To get his way in a power play. That was my point. 50cm in the streets is not that much its 60cm here and life will go on. But its too much IMHO, i said take as much without flooding BKK. The governor said whole of BKK at risk (even parts not even remotely connected to this gate).

I don't draw lines i just say they have to take some risks. The governor clearly does not want to take risks to help others. He has a I am dry let the other suffer mentality. Instead of lets see how much water we can take without getting flooded ourselves.

Now that the water levels in the river are lower more water can be expelled there. Every little bit helps. If only mentally it still helps. Live a while flooded and you will understand.

Before i was stressed and angry with BKK now i cant really care because water is not rising. I am pretty sure many people who see the water rise will get angry and stressed and if they then see a governor not wanting to take risks... Then you get what happened there.