The Riddle Of Epicurus

[zzap]

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

[bannork]

How does one define evil? Yesterday 4 men bought one of my sister-in-law's calves for 5,500 baht, 18 months old, it was still a youngster, liked following my wife or me who herded it, licking our legs for salt or peering into plastic bags. They tied it up, then bludgeoned it with what Thais call จอบ, the big hoe\ spade everyone uses for digging, before slitting its throat.

Brutal and sickening to watch, nothing that young deserves such a fate, yet I and countless millions continue to eat meat, deliberately oblivious to the origins of our pleasure. And isn't that the human condition? Unable to face up to others' suffering we turn away. In Burma, just a few hundred kilometres from here, people have been enslaved, raped and butchered for a long while now and most of us do nothing, just worry about midnight closure for alcohol sales or being fleeced by bargirls.

We're the same as the other cows in the field, when the hoe was raised they just looked away, munching the next mouthful, another Leo please.....

[suegha]

Interesting topic. I have some quotes that may amaze people. First Isiah 45

5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.

There will, however, in the future a time, which verse 8 alludes to, when all the evil be be destroyed, after the return of Jesus we're told in Revelation 21

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

So the time will come when the Lord God Omnipotent will change this current state of affairs and the world will be perfected through the righteoius reign of Jesus.

There are loads more references to support this, so this is just a potted version.

[Neeranam]

Wow, Give me a day or two to think about that one. Good question.

[thaibebop]

What does Epicurus have to do with this? He said, in a nutshell, that we have no souls because we are made up of atoms that would be dispersed after are death much like the idea of energy in physics.

BTW,

Your God is dead and no one cares, if there is a H3ll I'll see you there.-T.R.

[Gary A]

YES, I believe in God because I can fathom no other logical explanation where all this came from. The "Big Bang"? Where did that come from?

That said I do NOT believe in organized religion nor do I believe in the fairy tale books that some people regard as the sacred truth. My God wrote no books nor did he tell mentally unbalanced people to write any for him. Organized religion is the worst threat that the world has ever faced. Radicals are dangerous and that has been proven by the crusades of old and the muslims of today. Every man was born with a conscience (I think?) and if you treat people as you would like to be treated it would be a fine world to live in.

Edited November 22, 2005 by Gary A

[chownah]

What is this "god" thing that Epicurus is talking about?

[stumonster]

geriatric omnipresent delusion ...

say no to religion - a drug that has killed more people than heroin ( just a guess )

[Old Croc]

geriatric omnipresent delusion ...

say no to religion - a drug that has killed more people than heroin ( just a guess    )

[zzap]

geriatric omnipresent delusion ...

say no to religion - a drug that has killed more people than heroin ( just a guess    )

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And it is even more wide-spread than other hard drugs, specially in the US.

[sadman]

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

I believe in God, but have my share of concerns regarding organised religion. I am not a theologian and have no doubt that brighter minds than mine on this thread could shoot me down in flames if they so wished. However, I offer my opinion and trust it will be accepted as simply that, and not as some great truth or authoritative view.

God created man and gave him free will. The upshot of this would seem to be that whilst he can prevent evil, he will not take away the free will of man, so man's evil continues. He even let Lucifer go off and do his own thing. Does that make Him malevolent? I don't think so. He gives help in all sorts of ways (if we choose to recognise and accept them).

And no, I can't answer the obvious questions about babies dying of terrible disease, or natural disasters, or any of the other things that spring to mind. No-one can. We're not God. And yes, I agree that if God didn't exist, man would invent Him. But I believe he does exist.

[Neeranam]

Good answer Sadman.

say no to religion - a drug that has killed more people than heroin ( just a guess biggrin.gif )

A drug(religion) has also saved quite a few lives.

[thaibebop]

YES, I believe in God because I can fathom no other logical explanation where all this came from. The "Big Bang"? Where did that come from?

That said I do NOT believe in organized religion nor do I believe in the fairy tale books that some people regard as the sacred truth. My God wrote no books nor did he tell mentally unbalanced people to write any for him. Organized religion is the worst threat that the world has ever faced. Radicals are dangerous and that has been proven by the crusades of old and the muslims of today. Every man was born with a conscience (I think?) and if you treat people as you would like to be treated it would be a fine world to live in.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I commend you on excerising your free will. I see nothing wrong with a person being spiritual, meaning that what they believe is a personal experience that they will share with others if others are interested. Organized religion takes away any personal experience one might have concerning spiritual matters.

[thaibebop]

What is this "god" thing that Epicurus is talking about?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Still waiting on the OP to help out with that.

[thaibebop]

Good answer Sadman.

say no to religion - a drug that has killed more people than heroin ( just a guess biggrin.gif )

A drug(religion) has also saved quite a few lives.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But for what purpose one might ask.

[suegha]

"He even let Lucifer go off and do his own thing."

This is an interesting quote about Lucifer. If you check Isiah 14 you will see that it is referring to the King of Babylon and not some fallen Angel! The king of Babylon was exalting himself to godhood but God said his end would be like all of us, he would end up in the grave. Read Isiah 14 in a modern translation if this helps.

[thaibebop]

"He even let Lucifer go off and do his own thing."

This is an interesting quote about Lucifer.  If you check Isiah 14 you will see that it is referring to the King of Babylon and not some fallen Angel!  The king of Babylon was exalting himself to godhood but God said his end would be like all of us, he would end up in the grave.  Read Isiah 14 in a modern translation if this helps.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You got a thing for Isaiah, don't you. Is that the only book of the bible you have read?

[Neeranam]

I commend you on excerising your free will. I see nothing wrong with a person being spiritual, meaning that what they believe is a personal experience that they will share with others if others are interested. Organized religion takes away any personal experience one might have concerning spiritual matters.

There is a big difference between spirituality and religion.

Religion is for people who don't want to go to he ll.

Spirituality is for people who have been there.

[suegha]

No, I read all of the bible! It's just that the two questions that were raised were dealt with by the quotes made. Indeed, Lucifer is only mentioned in Isaiah and only once in the whole bible and not at all in most modern translations. The doctrine of 'satan' being a fallen angel is not supported by the bible but is a creation made up by 'organised' christianity. the word Satan just means 'Adversary' in the OT and 'false accuser' in the NT. If you require any more info please let me know.

Edited November 22, 2005 by suegha

[thaibebop]

No, I read all of the bible!  It's just that the two questions that were raised were dealt with by the quotes made.  Indeed, Lucifer is only mentioned in Isaiah and only once in the whole bible and not at all in most modern translations.  The doctrine of 'satan' being a fallen angel is not supported by the bible but is a creation made up by 'organised' christianity.  the word Satan just means 'Adversary' in the OT and 'false accuser' in the NT.  If you require any more info please let me know.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just curious as your signature is also Isaiah.

[thaibebop]

I commend you on excerising your free will. I see nothing wrong with a person being spiritual, meaning that what they believe is a personal experience that they will share with others if others are interested. Organized religion takes away any personal experience one might have concerning spiritual matters.

There is a big difference between spirituality and religion.

Religion is for people who don't want to go to he ll.

Spirituality is for people who have been there.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Great saying Neeranam!

[suegha]

No, I read all of the bible!  It's just that the two questions that were raised were dealt with by the quotes made.  Indeed, Lucifer is only mentioned in Isaiah and only once in the whole bible and not at all in most modern translations.  The doctrine of 'satan' being a fallen angel is not supported by the bible but is a creation made up by 'organised' christianity.  the word Satan just means 'Adversary' in the OT and 'false accuser' in the NT.  If you require any more info please let me know.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just curious as your signature is also Isaiah.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I can appreciate your curiousity, I didn't notice that my signature is also Isaiah! However, I assure you I am not obsessed with just one book of the bible. I have been reading and studying scripture for more than 28 years. I mention 'organised' christianity as so many dictrines are opposed to what the bible actually says, ie satan being a fallen angel, hel_l being a place of eternal torment, heaven going at death, God being more than one - to mention but a few! The only way to find the truth is to read and study it for yourself and to forget about the prejudices of organised christianity and then make up your own mind. I hope this clears up the coincidental use of Isaiah quotes!

[jezchesters]

No, I read all of the bible!  It's just that the two questions that were raised were dealt with by the quotes made.  Indeed, Lucifer is only mentioned in Isaiah and only once in the whole bible and not at all in most modern translations.  The doctrine of 'satan' being a fallen angel is not supported by the bible but is a creation made up by 'organised' christianity.  the word Satan just means 'Adversary' in the OT and 'false accuser' in the NT.  If you require any more info please let me know.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just curious as your signature is also Isaiah.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I can appreciate your curiousity, I didn't notice that my signature is also Isaiah! However, I assure you I am not obsessed with just one book of the bible. I have been reading and studying scripture for more than 28 years. I mention 'organised' christianity as so many dictrines are opposed to what the bible actually says, ie satan being a fallen angel, hel_l being a place of eternal torment, heaven going at death, God being more than one - to mention but a few! The only way to find the truth is to read and study it for yourself and to forget about the prejudices of organised christianity and then make up your own mind. I hope this clears up the coincidental use of Isaiah quotes!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My God! (Excuse the blasphemy) - this is one of the most informed and well argued posts I've seen on TV

I totally agree with you point - whether the religion be Christianity, Buddhism, Islaam etc etc I'm all for getting off your arse, reading the associated texts, and forming your own opinions of them. Better that than having some sanctimonious old fart telling you what to believe and then following blindly...

However - having an historical interest in the subject - I know full well that the Bible/Quran that we read today bear absolutely no resemblance to the original texts. They have been doctored beyond all belief over the millennia for religeous/political motives...

So if we know that what we're reading is propaganda - where do we find find the truth?

Who said never argue about religeon or politics after a beer?

[thaibebop]

This might all go somewhere.

[mrbojangles]

What is this "god" thing that Epicurus is talking about?

"If God listened to the prayers of men, all men would quickly have perished: for they are forever praying for evil against one another". Epicurus

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/e...urus148968.html

Also, to the Op. If you are going to cut and paste a question from the internet, please give credit to the original author, by at least posting the link

http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/latergreeks.html

(towards the bottom of the page)

[raro]

Great! After having learned about Goedel's Incompleteness Theorems on TV we can resolve now the question of god once and forever. I stay tuned...

[Fast Eddie]

So if we know that what we're reading is propaganda - where do we find find the truth?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's certainly not in any books, and is unavailable to us at this moment in time, as it may well always be.

[suegha]

jezchesters wrote

"However - having an historical interest in the subject - I know full well that the Bible/Quran that we read today bear absolutely no resemblance to the original texts. They have been doctored beyond all belief over the millennia for religeous/political motives...

So if we know that what we're reading is propaganda - where do we find find the truth?"

Hello again. I cannot comment on the Quran, I have read it but not studied it in any great detail. However, I do know that the bible bears incredible resemblance to the original texts as we have so many old sourses of information to consult. What has changed over the years (been docdored as you say) is the 'interpretation' of the texts by, as you put it, "sanctimonious old farts" (this gave me a laugh).

Also, and even more importantly, it's the consistant message found in the bible that proves it's veracity! How could a book with over a million words be so consistant if 'man' had fiddled with it. Even trying to find seeming contradictions is a fruitful exercise as deeper study provides the true meaning. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I understand every page or that I have all the answers, it would get boring if this were possible, however, the more I read and study the more I see the consistancy of the message right from the opening verses of Genesis to the closing verses of Revelation.

Thanks for your comments.

[sadman]

so many dictrines are opposed to what the bible actually says, ie satan being a fallen angel, hel_l being a place of eternal torment, heaven going at death, God being more than one - to mention but a few

Your knowledge is likely to be greater than mine, but my understanding is that Lucifer (the light-carrier) was one of the 4 archangels, along with Michael, Gabriel and another (sorry, I'm at work and don't have access to books, references etc at present). He thought he was as powerful as God, challenged him and got the elbow. Satan is a far later term, I think found only in the New Testament.

As regards the differing doctrines - I don't know which ones you are referring to, but the Holy Trinity, heaven/he11 etc are cornerstones of Christianity and as such, are non-negotiable.

I'll dig out a couple of books later and post further.

[sadman]

Your knowledge is likely to be greater than mine, but my understanding is that Lucifer (the light-carrier) was one of the 4 archangels, along with Michael, Gabriel and another

His name was Ariel, I seem to remember.

Also, bear in mind that the bible is not the sole repository of Christian teaching; indeed, much of the Old Testament is considered allegorical and should not be thought to be an absolute truth. (Although creationists, fundamentalists and Jews believe different, which is fine but not what I believe).