Face, Guile, And The Commerce Of Living

[jamman]

Wrote this last night. It pretends to be about Asia, but is just about Pop culture anywhere and especially about some of my recent relationships. What do you think - is Asian interaction more shallow than what we take for granted in the west?

--

You can see it in the eyes – the guile. Westerners are guileless. We are unarmed. Over here, what you see is also what you get, but all that you ever see is guile. There is nothing of interest underneath the guile. It seems a fundamentally materialistic mindspace, greed and aversion and apathy the root of all transactions. A smile is request for interest. A turned head is a snub. No eye contact is a lack of interest, or care. Business of business for business. No one smiles at panhandlers, panhandlers are professionally pathetic, everything neat and tidy and utterly useless. Hearty cackles and tight black eyes, every penny in the heart pinched. Spent only for gain, among allies. Allies, not friends.

There is no interest in education. That is saying the same thing. Truth holds no value. Same. All movements are commerce, or meaningless. There are few gardens or parks or beautiful buildings, especially here in the Philippines, unless in large private acreage to show status. The arts are barely alive in Asia, unless you count copying. No live band writes their own material, painters copy from photographs, and there is nearly no literature produced. Philosophy is not here. Never discussed here. The good, the true, and the beautiful, have no widespread following. There are no recognizable morals of truth and justice – lawers and police openly frame foreigners and the disadvantaged, as if it was obviously proper. No recognizable allegiance to any consensual reality, scientific or otherwise. No recognizable living arts. The cultures of Thailand and the Philippines amount to the importation of currently fashionable cell phones. Guile, with nothing underneath the guile – means without an ends. After the beemer and the big hair and the long painted nails and the secret phone numbers, then what? It’s got to be lonely in there, wherever there is, and I suspect no one will ever know, or question, or care. Trappings are wealth here. People get rich in order to be rich, in order to exacerbate their alienation, to drive the stake as deeply as they can into their pain, to commit their insecurities to suicide, to become as inauthentic as possible, as nonexistent as possible. As untouchable as possible. As rich as possible.

There is nothing to question. Nothing inside, or outside. Just relax, get your titillations, get as much status while you can, and don’t worry about your inevitable meaningless death.

Even love is a business proposition here, a bargain. A temporary bargain.

There is another way. There is a better way. There are reasons to wake up in the morning that are not about gathering or gaining or displaying or cultivating or changing anything about ones place in the scheme of things. Awe, appreciation, love, require not a millimeter of motion. Guile is too much work for its result. Guile marches, but always backwards. It requires a sick culture to re-enforce in full adults. Asia is sick.

The popular cultural values of SE Asia are so shallow and developmentally impaired as to be plainly diseased.

Expats who live here eventually refuse to do any business with Asians. People who date here either give up any of their own values as irrelevant, thus denying the possibility of a shared consensual reality with Asians, or don’t expect much in the way of shared values. Unless the woman is foreign educated or otherwise worldly beyond her culture, she will be myopic beyond all credulity, her only interests relating to boy hunting or family. Her mental skills, developed for those reasons, or not at all. Nothing outside of that exists.

Delirious with endless visions of gain, SE Asia has gone blind to worth. Human connections seem not so much as grounded in value here, but used for valuable goods and experiences. Boyfriends are commodities. Everything is used for a purpose, but the purpose seems so obviously a tangent from what is important. Power more important than the love and good uses it seeks. Status more important than the friendships it could open the door to. The goals are tangential to anything truly valuable. Get married to be married. Pray so that you pray. Empty rituals with no respect for the soul they could foster.

It would be satire, if enough people were in the audience to laugh. Everyone is on stage.

After the rage, should be be peace. There is no peace here – the business oriented eyes never shine back, wide and interested and naked and wild and present and without agenda. You could wait forever, all you’d ever see is guile and all it’s devilish and seductive pretenses. Honesty is guile here. Everything for a purpose. It is maddening. Once you see it and see it clearly, see seduction as seduction, see indifference as indifference, see aggression as aggression, once you see it, it is hopelessly maddening.

It is lonely when you can’t touch anything. There is nothing like that moment of looking into the eyes of a lover in moments of ecstatic love. That is polarly opposite to looking into they eyes of someone while they lie to you, or while they lie to themselves while they lie to you. The spark isn’t there. It feels different. It’s the opposite of bliss and joy and communion. It hurts. You just want to slap them, or something. Anything but just sit there, knowing that the situation is totally beyond your control hopeless. There will be no spark. There will be no reason, no purpose. Yes, I’m fine, and you?

When everything is for advantage, trust relies on treaties and agreements. It has to be chosen, created, then reconciled to. If being trustworthy were as natural as concern, and we were to naturally expect the same from others, what would that look like? Not at all like guile. Trust is just another weapon here, another handle for manipulation. It has no meaning other than that.

I have a few simple questions for people I wonder about.

1) What kind of boyfriend would you like?

2) What does love feel like, to you?

If the answer to #1 is something like “someone who loves me for who I am”, I know that the person wants love more than someone to love. Why not say instead “someone who will let me love them unconditionally all the time”?

If the answer to #2 is anything about receiving care and attention, I’ll know that the person has little feeling for the giving of love – what it feels like to give love that comes from inside her. There is probably not much love there, that is why she looks for someone to fill her with it.

So that’s it. Asia is someone that wants to be loved, but doesn’t even know what love really is. Love has nothing to do with fashionable cell phones or big hair. When is Asia going to start giving? The guileful never truly give.

[Noel]

Wrote this last night. It pretends to be about Asia, but is just about Pop culture anywhere and especially about some of my recent relationships. 

<snip>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You must be extremely disillusioned, if not bitter, to write such a negative account, jamman.

I am sure many of us could wax lyrical as we describe successful relationships with Thai women, yet I somehow doubt that is what you want to hear.

OK, so you have obviously had some bad experiences with relationships, but that is no basis from which to write off the whole of Asia so sweepingly.

That said, you also say your thoughts could apply anywhere, so you have effectively written off the world...

Whatever has happened to you, you clearly need to ‘get over it’ as the saying goes.

I also am of the belief that there are usually two sides to every story.

Perhaps you would be prepared to share the detail of one of your past relationships that was instrumental in bringing you to the conclusions you draw above?

[jamman]

Wrote this last night. It pretends to be about Asia, but is just about Pop culture anywhere and especially about some of my recent relationships. 

<snip>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You must be extremely disillusioned, if not bitter, to write such a negative account, jamman.

I am sure many of us could wax lyrical as we describe successful relationships with Thai women, yet I somehow doubt that is what you want to hear.

OK, so you have obviously had some bad experiences with relationships, but that is no basis from which to write off the whole of Asia so sweepingly.

That said, you also say your thoughts could apply anywhere, so you have effectively written off the world...

Whatever has happened to you, you clearly need to ‘get over it’ as the saying goes.

I also am of the belief that there are usually two sides to every story.

Perhaps you would be prepared to share the detail of one of your past relationships that was instrumental in bringing you to the conclusions you draw above?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Perhaps you are not a fan of a rant against a general negative characteristic, Noel. It's a writing style I'm fond of. Some feel that saying something negative about a group, any group, is overly general and too insulting. I don't feel that way at all, and like to discuss the pros and con's of aspects of differing cultures. It's fun to bash pop culture, fun to bash men, to bash women, if there are generalized differences that can be talked about. Groups do have characteristics that are meaningful to talk about. I'm not the first person in the world to notice that Asian culture, on the whole, is far more aware of guile and uses guile to a much greater extent than does a more emotionally open society such as the U.S. or Canada. The differences are real and quite obvious, even if they are generalizations. Some people just hate generalizations, because they are generalizations. Nothing wrong with generalizations, if you are clear about what you are talking about - broad patterns, not individual people.

And no, I don't want to get over noticing guile and reacting negatively to it. I do want to foster more positive relationships, of course, and will try to do so here in Asia. Of course that's possible too. I see no ill in noticing and condeming the negative. It's a good place to start, to then see the contrast between what I dont' want, and what I do.

[meemiathai]

Wrote this last night. It pretends to be about Asia, but is just about Pop culture anywhere and especially about some of my recent relationships.  What do you think - is Asian interaction more shallow than what we take for granted in the west?

--

//

I agree with what has been said but I don't think they are 100% true.

I grew up in HK and used to have the same thought but the longer I live the more I understand why things have been that way.

I think I understand what you mean but I really don't know how to respond.

Should we start the discussion by me asking you a few questions:-

What country/countries are you referring to when you say Asia?

How long have u lived in this/these countries?

Your age?

What prompted you to think this way? A relationship turned sour?

Can you give some examples?

[jamman]

Wrote this last night. It pretends to be about Asia, but is just about Pop culture anywhere and especially about some of my recent relationships.  What do you think - is Asian interaction more shallow than what we take for granted in the west?

--

//

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with what has been said but I don't think they are 100% true.

I grew up in HK and used to have the same thought but the longer I live the more I understand why things have been that way.

I think I understand what you mean but I really don't know how to respond.

Should we start the discussion by me asking you a few questions:-

What country/countries are you referring to when you say Asia?

How long have u lived in this/these countries?

Your age?

What prompted you to think this way? A relationship turned sour?

Can you give some examples?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm referring to Thailand and the Philippines, mostly. I lived one year in Bali, followed by two in Thailand and one in the Philippines. I'm 39. I'm just finishing up a 1 year relationship. My post was not prompted by any particular event or relationship. Most of the ideas in it are common and have been expressed by native Chinese, Thai, or Filipino. Hardly controversial stuff, but it seems worth getting second opinions on anyway.

As for examples of guile, I expect we all have plenty, just as we all have plenty of examples of genuine care.

It is a curious question to me though how some of the more negative aspects of a culture (any culture) can tend to re-inforce and perpetuate themselves. If that is so, it is a kind of sickness, right? Personal development is admired in most all cultures, with compassion and wisdom being signs of admirable maturity. If that becomes invisible to a culture or subculture, something is wrong. Here and there, some things are wrong. I think much of pop culture is retarded, and Asian pop culture even more backwards and developmentally impaired.

[greenwanderer108]

your writing style is definately unique and colorful, however...

your conclusions and supporting points are unclear and mixed up and this piece isn't constructed in a logical fashion...

The last half about pop culture and love seems to contradict the validity of the initial- general conclusions about Asian society. In other words, it seem to discredit the first half, as it is clear a broken heart is the drive for your pestimistic mood..

In the sense of art, it has its place, however if you submitted such an essay to a writing composition course test, they'd have a field day. But I don't imagine you were planning to submit it to Newsweek or anything

cheers

[OldAsiaHand]

Jamman,

I for one enjoyed reading your thoughtful and interesting observations wrapped up in quite a reasonable piece of prose. I also think they have considerable merit.

That they were almost instantly attacked as 'cultural generalizations' is, alas, typical of this board. Any general observations made by someone that could possibly be construed as negative inevitably draw that sort of response. Make some general observations that praise our native hosts without reservation, however, and you're just another sensitive and perceptive brother. Good Lord, when are these folks going to develop even some slight sense of irony?

[GuestHouse]

The arts are barely alive in Asia, unless you count copying. No live band writes their own material, painters copy from photographs, and there is nearly no literature produced. Philosophy is not here.

I'll agree whole heartedly with the above.

I'm very much a fan of art and the arts, Thailand has always dispointed me in the failure of Thai artists to come up with anything that says anything about Thai society.

[solo siam]

The West has its fair share of guile, lieing etc... its just found in different social situations, but is still used as it is in Asia, to save face.

For example, if someone in the West asks a friend, husband or someone they just met if they look fat, in most probability they will be lied to. Same if they have a new bad haircut etc... Whereas in Asia they are more likely to receive an honest answer like "Yes, you look fat, you shouldnt eat so much".

The problem probably lies in where you are meeting people/girls.

[The Dude]

Hey Jamman dude, never fear for The Dude concurs with you and your generalizations. No question that there is major prevalence of what u are talking about over here so why not lump it together. No question it would be true the vast majority of the time. For someone to suggest that the entire world is the same is not speaking about reality. Keep up the good work and while 90% of Thai Visa have their blinders on and write off what you say, there are 10% that are with you 200% of the time. Count The Dude among those 10%. The Dude's guard is up everyday in this land, for he will never ever let it down. The Dude is also blown away by the mass complacency regarding the farangs he has met in LOS and posters here on this forum as well. Anyone caring to dig what I'm saying shall be delivered a chrome plated shovel.

Edited November 26, 2005 by The Dude

[greenwanderer108]

The arts are barely alive in Asia, unless you count copying. No live band writes their own material, painters copy from photographs, and there is nearly no literature produced. Philosophy is not here.

I'll agree whole heartedly with the above.

I'm very much a fan of art and the arts, Thailand has always dispointed me in the failure of Thai artists to come up with anything that says anything about Thai society.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Maybe you're just not listening, or being a true objective observer to have any validity with such conclusions. Thai society may not be what you want to hear or be. Can you even speak, read, or write, Thai? I'm not talking about bar-restauraunt dialogue either. Can you understand a Thai country song, or a news briefing, what about a Buddhist Sermon?

The credibility was lost for me when the OP said 'no literature and philosphy' and anyone who can agree with such ignorance is proving something about their objectivity and experience here.

I fail to agree with such statements and generalizations about the 'Arts' here in Thailand and Asia in general. Most 'visitors' as we are, jump to make such charges based on ethno-centric, selective observations.

Of course, it's easier for westerners to point out what foriegn people (i.e. Asians) have emulated, copied, and pirated from their culture--- just as easy as it would for an Indian visiting California to label the West as unoriginal after he/she saw how 'pop' Yoga schools are there. Or for a Thai to dub westerners as fakes for indulging in Muay Thai parafanilia/hype, trying to incorporate it into their own martial arts styles i.e. K1, Muay Thai Academy in Las Vegas, Ong Bak craze, among others.

Try to be objective. Being half Asian, I have lived a life with perspective of both east and west, so while I do agree that the pop-culture in general here is unoriginal and a facade, remember that it is only one superficial layer and far from the true artistic nature, creativity, originality.

For example, one might look at any pop boy band and call it modern Thai music...then write off thai musicians as unoriginal. Is this a valid conclusion? D2B for example. Sure these are pretty boys and hardly original musicians (in my taste of course) but I can't write off all Thai musicians just as I couldn't all American musicians judging from Backstreet Boys and Britney Spears.

While Thai society unfortunately is not ready yet for original bands playing original music at any gig, that doesn't make musicians and artists unoriginal. It's simply not the west, so we can't hold 'our' societies' standards here.

There is lots of original Thai Art/Music/Literature worth mention.

Reekay: Original, Poetic, Imaginative, and Entertaining. I'd prefer this any day over Western Opera

Have you ever read any Thai literature, or any Asian literature in its original language for that matter?

Teweepop, Pra aphai manee, Inao, Khun Chang/Khun Paen are a few suggestions. (While the last three are traditional works, the first one is contemperary, and so far one of the imaginative peices of literature I've read in a long time, both Thai and English)

If you ever get the ability to read and understand Thai language, and gave an attempt to read one of these works,

I garuntee you will have a much greater appreciation for Thai Arts/literature, in its true authenticity...not the surface pop facade that seems to be the focus.

Philosophy is another subject at hand. There's plenty of philosophy here, whether I or you will agree with it or not. Take a look what's going on politically, there's a philosophical dispute/discussion every day regarding domestic issues.

[Noel]

Perhaps you are not a fan of a rant against a general negative characteristic, Noel. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If anyone feels the need to rant about anything, jamman, there is normally some emotional causal factor prompting the outburst.

Did you study this at school perchance? If not, have a read as it should be right up your street.

[bannork]

The arts are barely alive in Asia, unless you count copying. No live band writes their own material, painters copy from photographs, and there is nearly no literature produced. Philosophy is not here.

I'll agree whole heartedly with the above.

I'm very much a fan of art and the arts, Thailand has always dispointed me in the failure of Thai artists to come up with anything that says anything about Thai society.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Maybe you're just not listening, or being a true objective observer to have any validity with such conclusions. Thai society may not be what you want to hear or be. Can you even speak, read, or write, Thai? I'm not talking about bar-restauraunt dialogue either. Can you understand a Thai country song, or a news briefing, what about a Buddhist Sermon?

The credibility was lost for me when the OP said 'no literature and philosphy' and anyone who can agree with such ignorance is proving something about their objectivity and experience here.

I fail to agree with such statements and generalizations about the 'Arts' here in Thailand and Asia in general. Most 'visitors' as we are, jump to make such charges based on ethno-centric, selective observations.

Of course, it's easier for westerners to point out what foriegn people (i.e. Asians) have emulated, copied, and pirated from their culture--- just as easy as it would for an Indian visiting California to label the West as unoriginal after he/she saw how 'pop' Yoga schools are there. Or for a Thai to dub westerners as fakes for indulging in Muay Thai parafanilia/hype, trying to incorporate it into their own martial arts styles i.e. K1, Muay Thai Academy in Las Vegas, Ong Bak craze, among others.

Try to be objective. Being half Asian, I have lived a life with perspective of both east and west, so while I do agree that the pop-culture in general here is unoriginal and a facade, remember that it is only one superficial layer and far from the true artistic nature, creativity, originality.

For example, one might look at any pop boy band and call it modern Thai music...then write off thai musicians as unoriginal. Is this a valid conclusion? D2B for example. Sure these are pretty boys and hardly original musicians (in my taste of course) but I can't write off all Thai musicians just as I couldn't all American musicians judging from Backstreet Boys and Britney Spears.

While Thai society unfortunately is not ready yet for original bands playing original music at any gig, that doesn't make musicians and artists unoriginal. It's simply not the west, so we can't hold 'our' societies' standards here.

There is lots of original Thai Art/Music/Literature worth mention.

Reekay: Original, Poetic, Imaginative, and Entertaining. I'd prefer this any day over Western Opera

Have you ever read any Thai literature, or any Asian literature in its original language for that matter?

Teweepop, Pra aphai manee, Inao, Khun Chang/Khun Paen are a few suggestions. (While the last three are traditional works, the first one is contemperary, and so far one of the imaginative peices of literature I've read in a long time, both Thai and English)

If you ever get the ability to read and understand Thai language, and gave an attempt to read one of these works,

I garuntee you will have a much greater appreciation for Thai Arts/literature, in its true authenticity...not the surface pop facade that seems to be the focus.

Philosophy is another subject at hand. There's plenty of philosophy here, whether I or you will agree with it or not. Take a look what's going on politically, there's a philosophical dispute/discussion every day regarding domestic issues.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good work,GW, we agree on something at last! You could have mentioned Issan music; I haven't seen Britney Spears singing morlam sing but it's going to happen, the west has got to copy the infectious beat and melodies soon. Oh la nor....

[GuestHouse]

Can you even speak, read, or write, Thai?

Yes I can, I am fluent in Thai and have a post graduate diploma in Thai Language - members who have met me will testify to my fluency.

My major interest during my twelve years in Thailand, outside of work, was Thai culture and art, I have been a member of the Siam Society since 92 and have taken a real interest in Thai art and culture.

Rather than get into a squabble about this issue, please direct me to where I can find Thai art that says something about Thai society – not the mythical Thai society of years past, but Thai society now.

Thailand has undergone huge social and political changes, indeed is still undergoing these changes, but I find no Thai art that expresses any view on the challenges to Thai society.

Regurgitating past art glories says a lot about backwardness and fear of change. I see no Thai art that addresses today’s Thai society.

[girlx]

i for one thought your assessment brilliantly apt- but i would not apply it acrss the board, and i think a lot of your perspective is biased by your upbringing. some cultural differences are hard to understand or accept but that doesn't make them any worse than our own.

The credibility was lost for me when the OP said 'no literature and philosphy' and anyone who can agree with such ignorance is proving something about their objectivity and experience here.

i agree with you too, but have to admit what there is here is by the average person not analyzed or appreciated.

Edited November 27, 2005 by girlx

[bannork]

Can you even speak, read, or write, Thai?

Yes I can, I am fluent in Thai and have a post graduate diploma in Thai Language - members who have met me will testify to my fluency.

My major interest during my twelve years in Thailand, outside of work, was Thai culture and art, I have been a member of the Siam Society since 92 and have taken a real interest in Thai art and culture.

Rather than get into a squabble about this issue, please direct me to where I can find Thai art that says something about Thai society – not the mythical Thai society of years past, but Thai society now.

Thailand has undergone huge social and political changes, indeed is still undergoing these changes, but I find no Thai art that expresses any view on the challenges to Thai society.

Regurgitating past art glories says a lot about backwardness and fear of change. I see no Thai art that addresses today’s Thai society.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

HB, GW was referring to the OP, not you, regarding Thai language skills.

[greenwanderer108]

Can you even speak, read, or write, Thai?

Rather than get into a squabble about this issue, please direct me to where I can find Thai art that says something about Thai society – not the mythical Thai society of years past, but Thai society now.

Thailand has undergone huge social and political changes, indeed is still undergoing these changes, but I find no Thai art that expresses any view on the challenges to Thai society.

Regurgitating past art glories says a lot about backwardness and fear of change. I see no Thai art that addresses today’s Thai society.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I always thought that Art was open to interpretation. Just because I may not hear or percieve any certain message from an 'art work' doesn't mean that it isn't saying something relevant to the society. I guess its relevant to what one might consider art.

I've been thinking about your question of art that speaks about Thai society..What is an example of authentic art in the west that says something about western society? In the light of your points, I guess Shakephere, Makaveli, Leanordo, and all the likes are nothing more than past glories.

There are a handful of of modern and contemperary Thai authors and musicians saying something about Thai society. Carabao...Though I don't personally prefer the music, it is for the most part authentic, and addresses lots of social problems in Thailand. Sek Loso, wrote a few good songs in the past decade addressing poverty, social relations, and death.

How about these Thamma monks promoting Buddhism on the pop-culture level. i.e. Buddhist chant ring tones. That's quite a kick.

There is a lot of creativeness and originality in the Thai advertising/propaganda fields that could be considered 'art'. Ok, how about Chuwit's political campaigns/slogans. Those huge posters presented around the city last year, said a lot about Thai nature, society, and social mobility.

I thought the one where he had a big sledge hammer with some message about knocking out all the dirt or something was quite peculiar giving the situation in which he exploded onto the scened with his status as a massage tycoon/bribary alegations.

For most of us from the west, the fact that someone of such contreversey could gain a seat in parliment with such propaganda might bring to mind words like 'fake' and 'hypocracy' but it seems the Asians have a completely different outlook and stand about philosophy.

Where in the west, leaders are respected and expected to 'lead one life', 'be direct', 'have integrety' etc. etc.while Asians have always revered the many headed dieties...thus more dynamic, complex, and mobile in their social responsibilities and relations.

If someone like Chuwit ever tried to run for office in the states, for example, the politicians and media would have a field day. While in Thailand, many Thais actually had some respect for the guy, dispite the allegations for being so daring to speak out, even if it was contradicting himself as westerners would easily interprate.

Ok, I'm no Art expert, but like I said, Art is about how one interprates it..and I just don't think it's fair to use western art standards to judge the art here.

I do agree that much of Thai society is lost and not willing to get in touch with their art roots and potential within and so they focus their energies on emulating the 'pop art' of the west. And I also believe that this is a factor of the last 200 years of modernization, westernization, and most recently, globalization. So a lot of it all falls on the wests pressuring them to modernize and be 'civil' as to step out of the supposed third world.

[meemiathai]

Can you even speak, read, or write, Thai?

Rather than get into a squabble about this issue, please direct me to where I can find Thai art that says something about Thai society – not the mythical Thai society of years past, but Thai society now.

Thailand has undergone huge social and political changes, indeed is still undergoing these changes, but I find no Thai art that expresses any view on the challenges to Thai society.

Regurgitating past art glories says a lot about backwardness and fear of change. I see no Thai art that addresses today’s Thai society.

I always thought that Art was open to interpretation. Just because I may not hear or percieve any certain message from an 'art work' doesn't mean that it isn't saying something relevant to the society. I guess its relevant to what one might consider art.

I've been thinking about your question of art that speaks about Thai society..What is an example of authentic art in the west that says something about western society? In the light of your points, I guess Shakephere, Makaveli, Leanordo, and all the likes are nothing more than past glories.

///

Nice!

[jamman]

your writing style is definately unique and colorful, however...

your conclusions and supporting points are unclear and mixed up and this piece isn't constructed in a logical fashion...

The last half about pop culture and love seems to contradict the validity of the initial- general conclusions about Asian society. In other words, it seem to discredit the first half, as it is clear a broken heart is the drive for your pestimistic mood..

In the sense of art, it has its place, however if you submitted such an essay to a writing composition course test, they'd have a field day. But I don't imagine you were planning to submit it to Newsweek or anything

cheers

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's always a treat to get feedback on the style and format of writing - even more so than the content. But I'm really not sure what you mean, at all.

The post was originally just an email to a friend and came out as fast as I can type. It is an unedited first draft in my natural writing voice. I didn't even spell check it. And the points about love are the essence and summary of the whole piece, not a contradiction. Pop culture in general and Asian pop culture in particular confuse status with love, and people thereby lead impoverished lives.

I did submit it to stickman, and he gave me strong compliments for "both the writing and the structure of it", for which I am grateful - it's always nice to have something you create appreciated. I wrote it mostly for myself though - had to. Just had to.

[OlRedEyes]

Did you post here a few months ago about trying to build a meaningful relationship with a special Filipina by any chance?

I agree with most of what you say however. Asia is empty. It offers many things, but not depth.

Edited November 29, 2005 by OlRedEyes

[jamman]

Did you post here a few months ago about trying to build a meaningful relationship with a special Filipina by any chance?

I agree with most of what you say however. Asia is empty. It offers many things, but not depth.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ya, that was me. Good guess! I would have used the old login, but it's been a while and I forgot what it was and the email address used. I'm leaving the Philippines soon, as the best way to end the relationship with the extra-ordinarily hot and sexy Filipina. It turns out that she has all the traits of Borderline Personality Disorder, and many of her actions are not what I want in my life. Time to go. After getting off the plane I intend to live part 2 of my life; there should be a lot of changes. It was a good year here though, and I'd do all of it over again if I'd never done it before. Now that I have I don't expect to or want to repeat much of it.

Living with someone with BPD has been frustrating, challenging, an education, and at times, really incredibly good. People with little sense of self tend to be whatever you want them to be, while they are with you, and I wanted her to be little sexpot daughter. It was unbelievably, incredibly, intensely, fantascially good at times. But never again, man. There is a lot of BPD in Asia, and I'll be more cautious.

[GuestHouse]

I've been thinking about your question of art that speaks about Thai society. What is an example of authentic art in the west that says something about western society?

I've got a great example.

Behzti, "dishonor", was written by a British female Sikh, Gurpreet Kaur Bhatt. The play challenged the self view British Sikh's have of themselves and of their religion and in particular the place British Sikh women are taking in challenging their role in their religion.

The play was met with violent opposition from traditionalist Sikhs and was eventually cancelled due to safety considerations - but not before raising not just the questions of its content but also questions regarding freedom of speech, the part religion is to play in British Society and the part immigrants are to play in British society. The play set a light under the whole Law/Religion debate.

Fabulous stuff art challenging society to look at itself.

In the light of your points, I guess Shakephere, Makaveli, Leanordo, and all the likes are nothing more than past glories.

Yes they are past glories. But please do not misinterpret what I said.

What I said was regurgitating past art glories says a lot about backwardness and fear of change. I see no Thai art that addresses today’s Thai society.

Past glorious art is just that, it remains glorious it still says something to help us understand the past and really good art says something about the human condition that is universal.

The examples you give, Shakespeare, Machiavelli (philosopher not artist) and Leonardo are certainly among the greats – Nothing will distract from their greatness.

But if a British play-write now, today, sits down and regurgitates plays in the style of Shakespeare, that does not make him an artist – “Me thinks Nay it would not be so” ;-)

A Thai artist, painting pictures of the Buddha in serene translucency after 400 year old style is saying a great deal about conservatism and nothing about the challenges of Thai society today.

Change Media for a moment.

Philip Blenkinsop produced a book of photography ‘The Cars that Ate Bangkok’ – The photography was stunning, the message clear, the backdrop Bangkok Traffic and what it is doing to the city. The book and its content immediately impacted discussion in the press, media and politics, it raised questions about cars and the environment, it challenged Thai society to question the place of the car and the cost of the car to society. It took a foreigner to produce the book, Thai photographers based in Bangkok where still producing idyllic scenes of rural life as if the chaos around them did not exist. And of course it was not long before several distributors removed the book from their listing. – Not for safety reasons, as with Behzti, but because for the same reasons some Sikhs wanted to ban Behzti, the image is not what they want to see.

Thai ‘artists’ are too happy to pander to that self image instead of challenging it.

Edited November 29, 2005 by GuestHouse

[sabaijai]

your writing style is definately unique and colorful, however...

your conclusions and supporting points are unclear and mixed up and this piece isn't constructed in a logical fashion...

The last half about pop culture and love seems to contradict the validity of the initial- general conclusions about Asian society. In other words, it seem to discredit the first half, as it is clear a broken heart is the drive for your pestimistic mood..

In the sense of art, it has its place, however if you submitted such an essay to a writing composition course test, they'd have a field day. But I don't imagine you were planning to submit it to Newsweek or anything

cheers

It's always a treat to get feedback on the style and format of writing - even more so than the content. But I'm really not sure what you mean, at all.

The post was originally just an email to a friend and came out as fast as I can type. It is an unedited first draft in my natural writing voice. I didn't even spell check it. And the points about love are the essence and summary of the whole piece, not a contradiction. Pop culture in general and Asian pop culture in particular confuse status with love, and people thereby lead impoverished lives.

I did submit it to stickman, and he gave me strong compliments for "both the writing and the structure of it", for which I am grateful - it's always nice to have something you create appreciated. I wrote it mostly for myself though - had to. Just had to.

Just a thought, might go better in a blog.

[sabaijai]

Can you even speak, read, or write, Thai?

Yes I can, I am fluent in Thai and have a post graduate diploma in Thai Language - members who have met me will testify to my fluency.

My major interest during my twelve years in Thailand, outside of work, was Thai culture and art, I have been a member of the Siam Society since 92 and have taken a real interest in Thai art and culture.

Rather than get into a squabble about this issue, please direct me to where I can find Thai art that says something about Thai society – not the mythical Thai society of years past, but Thai society now.

Thailand has undergone huge social and political changes, indeed is still undergoing these changes, but I find no Thai art that expresses any view on the challenges to Thai society.

Regurgitating past art glories says a lot about backwardness and fear of change. I see no Thai art that addresses today’s Thai society.

Somewhere in your education you must have missed the whole 'art for life' movement that started with Jit Phumisak in the 50s and continues to this day in literature, art, film and music, most of it directly focussed on modern Thai society and culture.

[Morden]

People with little sense of self tend to be whatever you want them to be, while they are with you, and I wanted her to be little sexpot daughter.  It was unbelievably, incredibly, intensely, fantascially good at times.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Would you mind explaining exactly what you mean by that, please?

[Baal]

Do they have HOME DEPOT in Thailand?

[greenwanderer108]

your writing style is definately unique and colorful, however...

your conclusions and supporting points are unclear and mixed up and this piece isn't constructed in a logical fashion...

The last half about pop culture and love seems to contradict the validity of the initial- general conclusions about Asian society. In other words, it seem to discredit the first half, as it is clear a broken heart is the drive for your pestimistic mood..

In the sense of art, it has its place, however if you submitted such an essay to a writing composition course test, they'd have a field day. But I don't imagine you were planning to submit it to Newsweek or anything

cheers

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's always a treat to get feedback on the style and format of writing - even more so than the content. But I'm really not sure what you mean, at all.

The post was originally just an email to a friend and came out as fast as I can type. It is an unedited first draft in my natural writing voice. I didn't even spell check it. And the points about love are the essence and summary of the whole piece, not a contradiction. Pop culture in general and Asian pop culture in particular confuse status with love, and people thereby lead impoverished lives.

I did submit it to stickman, and he gave me strong compliments for "both the writing and the structure of it", for which I am grateful - it's always nice to have something you create appreciated. I wrote it mostly for myself though - had to. Just had to.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Perhaps it's just too ambiguous to conlude what your conclusions are and what are your supporting facts.

I just don't understand how rhetorical questions about 'love' support or prove anything about 'the shallowness' of Asian society, (as you you were building a strong case about in the first half). All such commments suggest to the reader is that the writer has/had different expectations/conceptions about Asian sociology/philosophy regarding 'love'. And by including such a subjective subject i.e. love into the piece, it clearly adds a subjective mood to the piece, which you may have wanted to do.

However, by adding yourself, and your emotions into the piece, it tends to take away some objective credibility from the entire piece. That's all.

In my oppinion, love nor art is universal, for they are both open to interpretation. With that in mind, I don't necesarrily agree that pieces of art constructed with the intent to meet a demand/feed an audience is art at all.

It's the strong passion of the artist that makes a piece artistic (for me) whether his drive was societal, physical, or personal issues will ultimately decide how big of a hit something will be depending on how much people can relate to.

Regarding the missed expectations with relationships, in Thai there is a saying you might know which suggests what comes quickly wil go away just as quickly. อะไรที่มาเร็วก็ตองหายเร็ว or มาเร็วก็ไปเร็ว

One year with one hot chick doesn't sound like a long time to condlude that all Asian women aren't worth your time for true love. Especially since you admit that sex was also a factor. I'm alot younger than you but I've been around long enough to know that relationships with physical/sexual foundations have a lot more maintence in the long run.

So what's the plan after Phillipenes. Going back to the western girls or???

[jamman]

your writing style is definately unique and colorful, however...

In my oppinion, love nor art is universal, for they are both open to interpretation. With that in mind, I don't necesarrily agree that pieces of art constructed with the intent to meet a demand/feed an audience is art at all.

It's the strong passion of the artist that makes a piece artistic (for me) whether his drive was societal, physical, or personal issues will ultimately decide how big of a hit something will be depending on how much people can relate to.

Regarding the missed expectations with relationships, in Thai there is a saying you might know which suggests what comes quickly wil go away just as quickly. อะไรที่มาเร็วก็ตองหายเร็ว or มาเร็วก็ไปเร็ว

One year with one hot chick doesn't sound like a long time to condlude that all Asian women aren't worth your time for true love. Especially since you admit that sex was also a factor. I'm alot younger than you but I've been around long enough to know that relationships with physical/sexual foundations have a lot more maintence in the long run.

So what's the plan after Phillipenes. Going back to the western girls or???

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, art is open to interpretation, but the world is not 100% relative. Even with morality you start with some basic principles as compass points, and then refine your view to get more subtleties. Senseless cruelty is wrong, beneficial kindness is good. Once you get some basic bearings you can build in complexity and nuance. Without a basic framework you wind up with muddled thinking such that no one culture can comment on any other. Lying is not always harmful, but most people agree that at times it certainly is, and that for the most part we prefer diplomatic candor to deceipt.

I've been in Asia for 4 years. I had two monogamous 1 year relationships, four non-monogamous serious relationships lasting from 6 months to a year, and at least 10 other dating partners. There were some pregnancies, some marriage proposals, and a whole lot of lovin and livin. The women were from all parts of society, from the poorest gettho to lawyers daughter to the super wealthy. Most held college degrees. I learn also what I can from friends and forums and the general environment and gossip around me. If that isn't sufficient life experience from which to draw these generalizations, I don't know what would be.

You are right that the post didn't give a lot of supporting facts. It was an emotional rant. It would have been stronger to give supporting anecdotes, but that may have made it too long, and I wanted mostly to let out the steam of the emotions. I disagree that emotions are too relative to stand on their own. The language of emotion is nuanced, but common enough that we understand each other, even when talking abstractly. "I'm feeling down and sluggish and a bit depressed today" needs little concrete imagery to be evocative. My personal writing often comes out very black and white, which is a flaw in my writing style, but a flaw that I'm still attached to. I like polemic. I like the drama of heightened passions.

Edited December 1, 2005 by jamman

[greenwanderer108]

Jamman,

So what's the plan after Phillipenes? Are you sure you can say goodbye to Asian girls, and happily go back to white girls?

Or will you continue to search for the compatible one in Asia?

You could always find an Asian girl that was raised in the west.

[meemiathai]

Jamman,

Sorry about you feeling depressed. Your posts are good reads although I might not understand the whole of them(my english standard). They show honesty and are heartfelt. I think I know what you are pointing at. Although I agree with what you say, I do think perhaps it's due to your bad luck. I have met some nice people in my life here in Asia. It could also be due to your high expectation/demand of moral standards.? It could also be your reaction towards people? If you are capable, you can bring the good side out of a person.

Hope you can cheer up.

What about the west(where you come from)? Are you satisfied with it?