British Citizenship

[wayned]

Don't know if this is the right forum, but I'll ask here first.

First, I am American and have absolutely zero knowledge of British law. I had a friend who died in November who was married to a Thai. He was retired and drawing a small pension from the British government, just enogh to allow him to get a yearly marriage extension. He has a son , 15 years old, but the son was mothered by another Thai before he was married. His name is on the birth certificate as the father. The son has beem to England on his Thai passport, but never got a UK passport. The wife said that they never had enough money and didn't think that it was important.

His wife has a friend that is married to a British citizen who is trying to help her get any pension that she deserves but has told her that even though he had a son, the son does not qualify to be a British citizen and has no rights for any death compensation. Can anyone clarify exactly what his status and rights are, if any. I have e-mailed the British Embassy, but have not received a reply.

He has a son and daughter that live in the UK, but for wharever reasons they are not wiiling to help, they didn't even come for the creamation even though it was postponed for a month and a half for them to arrange affordable travel.

[Soutpeel]

On face value believe the son would not be entitled to British citizenship, due to the fact the couple were not legally married and the birth was not registered with the British authorites originally.

I cannot quote the clauses from British law on this, but had a collegue (British) many years ago in a similar position except it was the Thai mother who had died and my collegue was trying to get a British PP for his daughter (who was about 6) and was refused on the above grounds, in the end it took him nearly 2 years of fighting with British authorities and the involvement of his local MP in the UK, before he could get a British PP for his daughter

Understand in his case he had to go to court in Thailand to get permission from the remaining Thai family to be be sole and legal guardian for he child before she was granted a passport, and would guess there was a whole heap of paperwork from the UK end to comply with as well.

I dont know the full details of what he had to go through, but know it took nearly 2 years before she was issued the passport

In your case the deceased is the British citizen and I suspect the Thai mother could not go this route, and only a name on birth certificate would not comply the requirements to be issued with a British PP/Citizenship as would suspect the British authorities could have the position that the birth certificate maybe forged and the British citizen concerned is deceased so would be unable to confirm he was infact the father

[RabC]

Soutpeel has expressed his VIEWS and no facts. I think the only way to get a truthful answer is for someone (English Speaker) to contact the Consular section at the British Embassy in BKK. I have my own personal opinion of what I feel may happen but is an opinion and of no use as advice.

[ludditeman]

If a British citizen is named as father on the Thai birth certificate, Britian considers the child a citizen.

That's true today, but the rules keep changing.

Apply at the British consulate and they will tell you.

Edited January 17, 2012 by ludditeman

[Soutpeel]

If a British citizen is named as father on the Thai birth certificate, Britian considers the child a citizen.

That's true today, but the rules keep changing.

Apply at the British consulate and they will tell you.

Not true.

believe the highlighted paragraph is applicable in this case, the first bullet would not permit the child to become a British citizen, as the parents were never legally married,

* Only one parent needs to be British otherwise than by descent - either the father or the mother.

* An unmarried father cannot pass on British citizenship automatically in the case of children born before 1 July 2006. Although, if the parents marry subsequent to the birth, the child normally will become a British citizen at that point if legitimated by the marriage and the father was eligible to pass on British citizenship.

* Failing the above, the child can be registered as British if it would have been British if parents were married and application is made before the child is 18.

* Where the parent is a British citizen by descent additional requirements apply. In the most common scenario, the parent is normally expected to have lived in the UK for three years and apply for the child to be registered as a British citizen within 12 months of the birth.

* For British nationality purposes, the Isle of Man and Channel Islands are treated as though they were part of the UK.

* Before 21 May 2002, British Overseas Territories were treated as 'overseas' for nationality purposes. The exceptions were Gibraltar who were British citizens per the British Nationality Act 1981; and the Falkland Islands who were granted British citzenship following the Falklands War per the British Nationality (Falkland Islands) Act 1983 . For children born on or after 21 May 2002 in a British Overseas Territory (other than the Sovereign Base Areas of Cyprus) there is an entitlement to British citizenship on the same basis as UK-born children.

* Children born overseas to parents on Crown Service are normally granted British citizenship otherwise than by descent. In other words, their status is the same as it would have been had they been born in the UK.

* In exceptional cases, the Home Secretary may register a child of parents who are British by descent as a British citizen under discretionary provisions, for example if the child is stateless.

[ludditeman]

[* Failing the above, the child can be registered as British if it would have been British if parents were married and application is made before the child is 18.

this seems to apply as child is 15

[Eff1n2ret]

Irrespective of the son's right to British nationality, does the widow not have a right to the bereavement benefit? See this page:-

http://www.direct.go...ine/DG_10017690

How much she would ge would probably depend on the deceased's level and frequency of NI contributions. I'm not sure the lad could claim anything, even if he registered as a British citizen, which he might well be able to do, assuming his father and birth-mother were not married at the time of his birth, in which case he is already British by descent

[Soutpeel]

[* Failing the above, the child can be registered as British if it would have been British if parents were married and application is made before the child is 18.

this seems to apply as child is 15

But the other stipulation in this clause is that the parents were legally married, which dont believe was the case

[RabC]

[* Failing the above, the child can be registered as British if it would have been British if parents were married and application is made before the child is 18.

this seems to apply as child is 15

But the other stipulation in this clause is that the parents were legally married, which dont believe was the case

Edited because the more I read the rules the less clear they become.

Edited January 17, 2012 by RabC

[Soutpeel]

Irrespective of the son's right to British nationality, does the widow not have a right to the bereavement benefit? See this page:-

Who can claim

You may be able to claim Bereavement Allowance if all of the following apply:

• you're a widow, widower or surviving civil partner aged 45 or over when your husband, wife or civil partner died
  
• you're not bringing up children
  
• you're under State Pension age
  
• your late husband, wife or civil partner paid National Insurance contributions (NICs), or they died as a result of an industrial accident or disease
  

Is the widow under a UK state pension ?...if no then looks like she should would not be entitled

[Soutpeel]

[* Failing the above, the child can be registered as British if it would have been British if parents were married and application is made before the child is 18.

this seems to apply as child is 15

But the other stipulation in this clause is that the parents were legally married, which dont believe was the case

Edited because the more I read the rules the less clear they become.

The rules are as clear as mud...

[ludditeman]

[* Failing the above, the child can be registered as British if it would have been British if parents were married and application is made before the child is 18.

this seems to apply as child is 15

But the other stipulation in this clause is that the parents were legally married, which dont believe was the case

It says 'if'

[Soutpeel]

[* Failing the above, the child can be registered as British if it would have been British if parents were married and application is made before the child is 18.

this seems to apply as child is 15

But the other stipulation in this clause is that the parents were legally married, which dont believe was the case

It says 'if'

True... fair point, but could the Thai mother register the birth with British authorites seeing as the British father is now deceased and the only claim she would have against citizenship is a Thai birth certificate as the only supporting document, one would suspect the British authorities would want confirmation/acknowlegement from the father that the child concerned is actually his, which would be problematic seeing as he is deceased

[ludditeman]

The only way to find out is an application.

[Soutpeel]

The only way to find out is an application.

True....but it seems that the OP has contacted the BC/BE for info and they have not responded ...

[wayned]

So far the most meaningful information is :

RabC :" Edited because the more I read the rules the less clear they become" and Soutpeel:" The rules are as clear as mud... "

I guess that there's no clear, simple answer and will have to wait until the UK embassy responds.

Thanks guys

Edited January 17, 2012 by wayned

[bobrussell]

The son should be able to apply for British Citizenship but it is not automatic. The link below seems the most relevant:

http://www.bia.homeo...obritishfather/

It is not of primary importance whether the parents are married or not but the test is would the child have a right to British Citizenship if the parents had been married?

As long as the child is of good character (if over 10 years of age) and there is no reason to doubt the validity of the birth certificate an application should be successful and well worthwhile.

Pretty sure it should be form MN 1 that is filled in!

Edited January 17, 2012 by bobrussell

[7by7]

As said, at present the boy is not British; but may be able to be registered as such.

A couple of points.

Firstly, the boy may not be entitled to be registered as British at all; it depends on his father's status.

There are basically two forms of British nationality

• British by descent.
  
• British otherwise than by descent.
  

British by descent means, basically, that you were born outside the UK or a qualifying territory and are British because one or both of your parents are British. With certain exceptions, e.g. members of HM armed forces serving overseas, this type of 'inherited' nationality cannot be passed onto your children unless they are born in the UK or a qualifying territory.

British otherwise than by descent means that you did not 'inherit' your nationality from your parents but are British in your own right. Usually because you were born in the UK or a qualifying territory and one or both of your parents are either British or legally settled in the UK or qualifying territory. Being naturalised as British also means you are British otherwise than by descent. This type of nationality can be passed onto your children, no matter where they are born.

To show whether his father was British by descent or British otherwise than by descent he will need to obtain a certified copy of his father's long form birth certificate from the General Register Office (note this is the one for England and Wales; if he was born in Scotland or Northern Ireland you should contact the relevant office.).

Secondly, as already pointed out, registration in these circumstances is at the Home Office's discretion. A lot depends upon the ties the applicant has with the UK. Were his father still alive then I think it would be granted, but as his father is dead, his paternal relatives seem uninterested in him and he lives in Thailand, I don't think it will be so straightforward.

But that is just my opinion; I am no expert on nationality law which, as has already been commented, can be very complex.

At the end of the day, the only way to be sure is to apply; which I suspect is going to be the reply you receive from the embassy.

[wayned]

As said, at present the boy is not British; but may be able to be registered as such.

A couple of points.

Firstly, the boy may not be entitled to be registered as British at all; it depends on his father's status.

There are basically two forms of British nationality

• British by descent.
  
• British otherwise than by descent.
  

British by descent means, basically, that you were born outside the UK or a qualifying territory and are British because one or both of your parents are British. With certain exceptions, e.g. members of HM armed forces serving overseas, this type of 'inherited' nationality cannot be passed onto your children unless they are born in the UK or a qualifying territory.

British otherwise than by descent means that you did not 'inherit' your nationality from your parents but are British in your own right. Usually because you were born in the UK or a qualifying territory and one or both of your parents are either British or legally settled in the UK or qualifying territory. Being naturalised as British also means you are British otherwise than by descent. This type of nationality can be passed onto your children, no matter where they are born.

To show whether his father was British by descent or British otherwise than by descent he will need to obtain a certified copy of his father's long form birth certificate from the General Register Office (note this is the one for England and Wales; if he was born in Scotland or Northern Ireland you should contact the relevant office.).

Secondly, as already pointed out, registration in these circumstances is at the Home Office's discretion. A lot depends upon the ties the applicant has with the UK. Were his father still alive then I think it would be granted, but as his father is dead, his paternal relatives seem uninterested in him and he lives in Thailand, I don't think it will be so straightforward.

But that is just my opinion; I am no expert on nationality law which, as has already been commented, can be very complex.

At the end of the day, the only way to be sure is to apply; which I suspect is going to be the reply you receive from the embassy.

Thanks for your response. Have not heard any reply from the embassy but fear that they will send copies of the relavant laws that are as clear as mud to Brits and even worse for me.. I'll try to get a copy of his long term birth certificate but doubt that his family will be of any help.

[abrahamzvi]

The only advice I can give you is to get your friend's wife to consult a British lawyer. There are a number of Law Offices in Thailand, which are either part of, or asociated with a Law Office in trhe UK. Such Law offices can then advise and if necessary and possible take the legal steps to get British Citezenship for the boy and a Widow Pension for the wife, if legal and possible.

As an American you should know that when dealing with authorities in complicated matters, normally the right route to take is to consult a lawyer. My own experince in the US (I am not an American, but worked for many years for an American company) showed me that this is probably the only way to get things togo through rapidly and legally in the US. I am sure the same applies in the UK and in most other countries, particularly where citizenship. Immigration , Social.benefits etc., are concerned.

[prakhonchai nick]

Might I first suggest that it is the IPC - International Pensions Department in Newcastle who should be contacted. It is after all they who will be paying any benefits due. Don't expect the British Embassy or Consulate to help.

The wife will be entitled to claim the bereavement grant of 2000GBP and if over 45, 1 years bereavement allowance based on the deceased's NI contributions.

The 15 year old son is himself entitled to nothing, but if he were to be registered as a Brtitish citizen (which he may be entitled to) then depending on who has been supporting him and raising him, it may be possible for the widow to claim a widowed parents allowance.

All info needs to be submitted to the IPC

PM me for additional info.

[Roj]

If the wife is not a British citizen she won`t be entitled to any state pension from Britain just the same as a non Thai spouse here isn`t entitled to any monetary benefit that the state may offer it`s own citizens. There is no reciprocal arrangement between the UK and Thailand. Some private pension providers continue to pay a dependents pension when the pensioner dies but it sounds like the deceased didn`t have one. Using a third party in the UK is likely to result in a negative response unless an acceptable legal representative is used which will be very expensive. British pensioners have a hard enough time themselves getting the benefits that they`re entitled to, especially if they live outside the UK, so I think you can multiply the difficulty in this case tenfold. The son needs to contact the British embassy. If he can speak good English this should enable him to get past the switchboard. An ECO is supposed to have a good knowledge of Immigration law and should be able to advise but In the present immigration climate in the UK, without concrete proof that he is indeed his father`s son, he`ll need professional help.

As for the son and daughter, maybe they couldn`t afford to travel out to Thailand. Affordable travel for some is unaffordable for many others these days. Also, they may want proof that their half-brother is exactly that. Can`t condemn them without knowing the circumstances.

[prakhonchai nick]

If the wife is not a British citizen she won`t be entitled to any state pension from Britain just the same as a non Thai spouse here isn`t entitled to any monetary benefit that the state may offer it`s own citizens. There is no reciprocal arrangement between the UK and Thailand.

That is not correct Roj.

Upon the death of a British subject, anywhere in the world, his widow IS entitled to bereavement benefits regardless of her nationality, her age or whether or not she had ever been to Britain.

Provided the deceased had made just 1 NI contribution, the widow would be able to claim the Bereavement grant of 2000GBP. If she had children, or was aged over 45, she may be able to receive additional bereavement benefits based on her late husbands NI contribution record.

I have made claims for these benefits on behalf of 4 Thai widows, and know this is true. As you say it is a mighty challenge, and initially the pension dept may try and advise that the widow is not entitled......but I can assure you that she is!

If there are children, (not necessarily his), the widow may be able to receive up to 100GBP+ a week whilst the youngest remains in school and is under 20.

In addition, as per current rules, the Thai widow can claim state pension at normal retirement date (?66-68), the payment being based upon the late husbands NI contributions. Likely to be a long way off in most cases but worth her making a note of it for future use, as the UK pension Dept will unlikely be advising her.

[bkk_mike]

On face value believe the son would not be entitled to British citizenship, due to the fact the couple were not legally married and the birth was not registered with the British authorites originally.

I cannot quote the clauses from British law on this, but had a collegue (British) many years ago in a similar position except it was the Thai mother who had died and my collegue was trying to get a British PP for his daughter (who was about 6) and was refused on the above grounds, in the end it took him nearly 2 years of fighting with British authorities and the involvement of his local MP in the UK, before he could get a British PP for his daughter

Understand in his case he had to go to court in Thailand to get permission from the remaining Thai family to be be sole and legal guardian for he child before she was granted a passport, and would guess there was a whole heap of paperwork from the UK end to comply with as well.

I dont know the full details of what he had to go through, but know it took nearly 2 years before she was issued the passport

In your case the deceased is the British citizen and I suspect the Thai mother could not go this route, and only a name on birth certificate would not comply the requirements to be issued with a British PP/Citizenship as would suspect the British authorities could have the position that the birth certificate maybe forged and the British citizen concerned is deceased so would be unable to confirm he was infact the father

How long ago was this?

The change in rules where the father could pass on Nationalty without getting married is relativey recent - within the last 10 years.. (It was deemed discriminatory that a mother could pass on Nationality without marriage but a father couldn't, now that DNA testing can remove doubt about the father's identity)

The long form birth certificate is definitely needed though to confirm where the father was born in order to pass on that nationality.. With that and the child's birth certificate, naming the father, it should just be a matter of applying...

[wayned]

Thanks guys for all of the info so far. I'm taking it all in and need to talk to his wife to get more info before I respond further. She lives 200 kilometers away and her English and my Thai on the phone are "greek" to both of us. Unfortunately his son is "at that age" where the only thing on his mind is girls and British citizenship is not a priority, but he does speak excellant English

[KKK]

I have no idea as to the boys entitlement to British nationality but would like to ask what would be his benifit in obtaining such. Personally I feel that his being Thai and speaking excellant English would be of more benifit to him than anything a British passport could give.

[prakhonchai nick]

I have no idea as to the boys entitlement to British nationality but would like to ask what would be his benifit in obtaining such. Personally I feel that his being Thai and speaking excellant English would be of more benifit to him than anything a British passport could give.

British citizenship would be in ADDITION to Thai citizenship.

It would give him the opportunity to go freely to the UK, and the EEC, and to work there, and pay NI contributions towards a possible future state pension.

Edited January 23, 2012 by prakhonchai nick

[wayned]

The British Embassy did finally answer and as you said they were almost no help at all. They directed me to the UK government website, specifically IPC for breavement benefits and Home Office, Nationality Conract Centre for citizenship. After muddling through the "mud" on the IPC website, it says exactly what you posted. 2000B lump sum breavement payment and 1 year widow's breavement payments based on his NI contributions if she is over 45. She is over 50. His widow's friend has already started this process and I'll keep in contact with him

The information on the Home Office website regarding citizenship is like jumping from the "mud" into a "tar pit". From what I can assertain the son is eligible for British citizenship and the process requires that an MN1 form being submitted. It requires the son's birth certificare, which is in Thai, so I imagine that it has to be translated into English and a "long form" copy of the fathers birth certificate. I have no idea how to obtain this. There is also a lot of information required regarding the birth mother and I doubt that any of that is available. I don't think that he even knows who his mother is other than the name on the birth certificate. I guess that I'll have to e-mail the Home Office, explain the situation and wait for their reply. He is 15 now, but everything changes when he turns 18, I hope they reply before that event.

Thanks all for your help and comments. If anyone knows how to obtain the "long form" birth certificate I would appreciate your response.

Edited January 24, 2012 by wayned

[Soutpeel]

The British Embassy did finally answer and as you said they were almost no help at all. They directed me to the UK government website, specifically IPC for breavement benefits and Home Office, Nationality Conract Centre for citizenship. After muddling through the "mud" on the IPC website, it says exactly what you posted. 2000B lump sum breavement payment and 1 year widow's breavement payments based on his NI contributions if she is over 45. She is over 50. His widow's friend has already started this process and I'll keep in contact with him

The information on the Home Office website regarding citizenship is like jumping from the "mud" into a "tar pit". From what I can assertain the son is eligible for British citizenship and the process requires that an MN1 form being submitted. It requires the son's birth certificare, which is in Thai, so I imagine that it has to be translated into English and a "long form" copy of the fathers birth certificate. I have no idea how to obtain this. There is also a lot of information required regarding the birth mother and I doubt that any of that is available. I don't think that he even knows who his mother is other than the name on the birth certificate. I guess that I'll have to e-mail the Home Office, explain the situation and wait for their reply. He is 15 now, but everything changes when he turns 18, I hope they reply before that event.

Thanks all for your help and comments. If anyone knows how to obtain the "long form" birth certificate I would appreciate your response.

A copy of the fathers birth certificate comes from a goverment dept in Liverpool, the name of which escapes, soon as i remember will post, there is a cost involved to get a copy and believe they will not hand out a copy to anyone

[7by7]

obtain a certified copy of his father's long form birth certificate from the General Register Office (note this is the one for England and Wales; if he was born in Scotland or Northern Ireland you should contact the relevant office.).

Click on the link above if the father was born in England or Wales.

This one if born in Scotland.

This one if born in Northern Ireland.

Remember that whilst the boy is eligible to apply, there is no guarantee he will be successful. As I said before

Secondly, as already pointed out, registration in these circumstances is at the Home Office's discretion. A lot depends upon the ties the applicant has with the UK. Were his father still alive then I think it would be granted, but as his father is dead, his paternal relatives seem uninterested in him and he lives in Thailand, I don't think it will be so straightforward.