UK pensions

[theoldgit]

Can you lease provide a link to pensioners being liable to cost +50%.

It's been discussed at length here:http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/813369-camerons-message-to-all-british-ex-pats/

It of course applies to all expats, not just pensioners.

[Jip99]

Can you lease provide a link to pensioners being liable to cost +50%.

It's been discussed at length here:http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/813369-camerons-message-to-all-british-ex-pats/

It of course applies to all expats, not just pensioners.

....... but not to citizens of the EEC (who have probably never made a National Insurance Contribution in their lives!)

rant over...

[nong38]

I saw a quote in the UK press in the last week, probably the Mail from Johnathon Aitken, a former MP who did something naughty if I recall and got stuck in jail............ the quote a wonderfully one cynical at that was............"I have lost everything...........apart from my MP's pension of 33,000 pounds a year!

Anyone who might or might not consider whether to call this bloke's employers about their current whereabouts should reflect on that, what I could do with 33,000 quid, buy a new som law for a start with white wall tyres and 5 1/2 j tyres. and in white naturally!

[loppylugs1]

Better reflect on the next 12 billion pound reduction mini budget next month,with more than a slight hint at pensioners. My guessing the tax free allowance for overseas client be it in EU or anywhere is finishing.

The frozen pension issue is so far dead and buried it is not worth even considering for a decade or two

Old age pensions should (but are not) given out universally,no strings attached,where one lives is no concern to the govt.Of course they want to stick their nose in,up to them,they get different answers to different questions.

And how spectacularly wrong the doomsters got it,they always have been.....don't ask,look it up, read it yourselves LOL

[Liquorice]

Better reflect on the next 12 billion pound reduction mini budget next month,with more than a slight hint at pensioners. My guessing the tax free allowance for overseas client be it in EU or anywhere is finishing.

The frozen pension issue is so far dead and buried it is not worth even considering for a decade or two

Old age pensions should (but are not) given out universally,no strings attached,where one lives is no concern to the govt.Of course they want to stick their nose in,up to them,they get different answers to different questions.

And how spectacularly wrong the doomsters got it,they always have been.....don't ask,look it up, read it yourselves LOL

I think scrapping the tax free allowance for pensioners living outside of the UK would be strongly challenged as discriminatory and a violation of human rights. They would have to introduce legislation to include in an Act first.

It may be one of their considerations, but it's a no goer in my opinion.

They have much easier targets to aim at for additional savings.

[JB300]

Better reflect on the next 12 billion pound reduction mini budget next month,with more than a slight hint at pensioners. My guessing the tax free allowance for overseas client be it in EU or anywhere is finishing.

The frozen pension issue is so far dead and buried it is not worth even considering for a decade or two

Old age pensions should (but are not) given out universally,no strings attached,where one lives is no concern to the govt.Of course they want to stick their nose in,up to them,they get different answers to different questions.

And how spectacularly wrong the doomsters got it,they always have been.....don't ask,look it up, read it yourselves LOL

I think scrapping the tax free allowance for pensioners living outside of the UK would be strongly challenged as discriminatory and a violation of human rights. They would have to introduce legislation to include in an Act first.

It may be one of their considerations, but it's a no goer in my opinion.

They have much easier targets to aim at for additional savings.

Scrapping of Personal Allowance for expats was considered as part of last years full budget & rejected in last years Autumn budget (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/expat-money/11272572/Expats-will-keep-their-tax-break.html)so I can't (touch wood) see them announcing that it's being scrapped in the next one.

Even if they did do it, it's likely that they would stick with the "Strong economic Ties to the UK" exemption of being a "UK resident for Tax purposes", which a lot of OAPs probably are.

[nong38]

I have just returned from the Benefitland and although there is talk of the Ossie's upcoming budget, well, we have just a taster right after the election I can tell you there was nothing detectable anywhere that any change to overseas allowance was going to be involved. It would in monetary terms be a drop in the ocean and make no significant impact on the public finances, in short its overseas expats are worrying. over worrying about something that is very unlikely to happen, particularly as expats responded so well to David Cameron's plea for support in the last General Election, you did not let him down did you?

[dsfbrit]

I have read through most of this thread, but I am still unable to answer a question a friend asked me.

Can you help me with this please?

He is English, 67 years old and gets the basic UK State Pension of 115 pounds a week. That is his only income.

He asked me if he would be eligible for UK Pension Credit.

He would be, but as I am sure you all probably know, for this you need to be a UK resident.

He is currently staying in Thailand as he comes over here for 6 months per year to get away from the UK winter. He goes back to the UK next week.

So my question is this, what are the rules that says he is a UK resident for Pension Credit purposes?

Are they the same as the 'new' rules that were introduced in 2013 for the HMRC Statutory Residence Test (SRT)?

So as he has a house in the UK and a family and daughter in the UK, is that enough for him to claim Pension Credit legally even though he is out of the country for 6 months a year.

A second question that I thought about when I was writing this, what are the rules for the increase in State Pension each year for my friend. As we all know, he is only entitled to the increase if he is a UK resident or lives in one of the countries on that infamous list we talk about so often. Living in Thailand for 6 months means he is still legally entitled to this increase or not?

When he goes back to the UK, I have suggested he goes to see Citizens Advice or Age UK before he contacts the Pension Credit service 'for real', so he will be getting good advice about what his situation is. Could anyone suggest any other place he could get some good advice about all this?

Thanks very much for your help.

Edit: I have just found some information on The Habitual Residence Test (HRT), is this the test I should be reading about for both Pension Credit and State Pension rules?

[jpinx]

Your friend would be well-advised to call the pension service when he gets back to UK to get the definitive answers. The rules surrounding pensions are extremely complex when you start to travel to other countries to avoid the UK winter. There's precious little information about specifics. They tend to say "let us know and then we'll tell you how much you lose", rather that you being able to read the rules and make an informed decision about where you want to go and when. The definition of UK Resident seems to vary according to which department you talk to. There is no cognizance of people's ability to jump on a budget flight to where-ever for a few weeks or months of warm weather in the winter. The overall feeling is one of protectionism -- they don't want to tell you what you "can" do -- only wait till you do it and then tell you the effects.

A few basic links..........

Basic UK Pension

https://www.gov.uk/state-pension/eligibility

The list of countries

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/state-pensions-annual-increases-if-you-live-abroad/countries-where-we-pay-an-annual-increase-in-the-state-pension

Double Tax Treaty UK - Thailand

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/412193/uk-thailand-dtc180281.pdf

[i claudius]

keep a uk address ,so many guys living here do , they paid in they deserve their pensions ,its a right ,not a benifit.

[transam]

I would have a chat here.......

https://www.gov.uk/state-pension-if-you-retire-abroad

[jpinx]

Too often the reaction is "Oh - you want to live abroad" -- when the reality is that the pensioner only wants to spend some months away from the UK winter -- not permanently move.

[dsfbrit]

Jpinx, i claudius, transam thanks for the really quick replies and the links.

I have just done some more reading about the Habitual Residents Test(HRT) and what you say is correct. There is no definitive answer to this, it is based on each individual. However, one of the articles on the Citizen's Advice web site has some references to case law and specific people's experiences. One article was based around someone who had lived out of the UK for just 4 months and was no longer able to pass the HRT to receive Job Seekers Allowance a benefit in the same eligibility 'group' as the Pension Credit.

Here is the link if you are interested:-

http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/11011326.York_man_refused_benefits_due_to_new_immigration_rules/

What concerned me as I mentioned above, is that if he were to apply for Pension Credit and get that refused as he comes to Thailand every 6 months, the next thing they will do is refuse him his Pension increase as well as he 'lives' in a Thailand - a country not eligible for the annual increase!

Thanks again to you all for your feedback.

[nontabury]

A very easy answer, tell your friend if he is someone who payed onto the system,to NOT inform the authorities that he is out of the country for any length of time, very simple.

[Rajab Al Zarahni]

Here is a link to the relevant UK Government website.

https://www.gov.uk/pension-credit/how-to-claimhttps://www.gov.uk/pension-credit/how-to-claim

The possible sticking point is the amount of time he spends in Thailand. The rules are stated as "you must live in Great Britain". If he keeps the duration of each stay in Thailand to 184 days / year or less and he resides for the rest of the tine time at his UK address (185 days), then he is certainly UK resident and should have no problem.

[JB300]

^^^ slight correction, 183 days in the UK is the "Magic Number" (leaving 182 outside, assuming not a leap year) & if it's anything like where you are for Tax purposes, it's where you are at midnight that counts (I know guys who would land in UK at 11:30 & hang around airside until past midnight so it wouldn't count as a day in the UK).

[Liquorice]

I remember this same question coming up on another forum, some 3 years ago.

The answer from the UKBA was no more than 90 days in one period, and no more than 181 days in a year for a British citizen to keep his residency status.

[loppylugs1]

Resident or not in the UK,he will still get his rises,if say for example an accommodation address is used in Benidorm (cheap enough), .,or anywhere unfrozen ,and face it the Spanish telephone system is nothing but atrocious if concern regarding contact

Solly the pension credit will have to be in UK and the DWP do check on that one. The other they cannot be bothered Just your private pension provider make sure they do not have the address here,or any address for that matter,register for pay/pension slips for on-line

[Liquorice]

Resident or not in the UK,he will still get his rises,if say for example an accommodation address is used in Benidorm (cheap enough), .,or anywhere unfrozen ,and face it the Spanish telephone system is nothing but atrocious if concern regarding contact

Solly the pension credit will have to be in UK and the DWP do check on that one. The other they cannot be bothered Just your private pension provider make sure they do not have the address here,or any address for that matter,register for pay/pension slips for on-line

Certain benefits are affected if you go abroad for longer than 4 weeks.

In the case of Pension Credits you can live abroad for up to 13 weeks without loss of entitlement.

moving-to-and-returning-from-abroad.pdf

The OP can claim Pension Credits whilst he is in the UK and as long as he doesn't reside in Thailand for longer than 13 weeks in any one period he will not lose that benefit. (90 days to be on the safe side)

If the OP visits Thailand for 2 periods of up to 13 weeks in a year he will get Pension Credits, annual increase in his Pension and still be classed as resident in the UK. (2 x 90 days =180 days abroad. 185 days in UK)

Note that from 2016 Pension Credits are being scrapped and the new Flat Rate Pension will be introduced.

If the OP then gets the estimated £155 a week from 2016, as long as he follows the above his Pension payments will not be affected.

[lungbing]

Surely if the OP is already getting his pension he will not be eligible for the new 155 quid a week one? He'll be stuck on the present value of his pension.

[loppylugs1]

Resident or not in the UK,he will still get his rises,if say for example an accommodation address is used in Benidorm (cheap enough), .,or anywhere unfrozen ,and face it the Spanish telephone system is nothing but atrocious if concern regarding contact

Solly the pension credit will have to be in UK and the DWP do check on that one. The other they cannot be bothered Just your private pension provider make sure they do not have the address here,or any address for that matter,register for pay/pension slips for on-line

Certain benefits are affected if you go abroad for longer than 4 weeks.

In the case of Pension Credits you can live abroad for up to 13 weeks without loss of entitlement.

moving-to-and-returning-from-abroad.pdf

The OP can claim Pension Credits whilst he is in the UK and as long as he doesn't reside in Thailand for longer than 13 weeks in any one period he will not lose that benefit. (90 days to be on the safe side)

If the OP visits Thailand for 2 periods of up to 13 weeks in a year he will get Pension Credits, annual increase in his Pension and still be classed as resident in the UK. (2 x 90 days =180 days abroad. 185 days in UK)

Note that from 2016 Pension Credits are being scrapped and the new Flat Rate Pension will be introduced.

If the OP then gets the estimated £155 a week from 2016, as long as he follows the above his Pension payments will not be affected.

Think you will find its £148 per week.

The guy is already on OAP so he will stick with that rate he is on now...13 weeks? hardly worth it flying backwards and forwards

[Ricardo]

<snip>

He is English, 67 years old and gets the basic UK State Pension of 115 pounds a week. That is his only income.

<snip>

So as he has a house in the UK and a family and daughter in the UK, is that enough for him to claim Pension Credit legally even though he is out of the country for 6 months a year.

<snip for brevity>

Just a thought, and not that it's any of my business, but has he considered selling the house and investing the proceeds to generate some extra income ?

Or renting-out the house, while he's away ?

It strikes me that he may not be using his major-asset efficiently.

And perhaps live with family (in their own separate accomodation ?), even giving them a bit of rent, when back in the UK ?

just a thought !

[jpinx]

Think you will find its £148 per week.

The guy is already on OAP so he will stick with that rate he is on now...13 weeks? hardly worth it flying backwards and forwards

For increases a person could stay 90 days in Thailand -- hop over to the philippines for long enough to register with DWP and hop back again for the next 90 days. Dunno about Pension Credits though - seems like that is a different ball-game

[nev]

I worked 6 years in England before moving to Australia from age 16 to 22 and 3 years was as a apprentice, I will get a Australian pension as I have 35 years of working there, my question is would I be entitled to a pension from England even tough it would be very small, and would it be worth while applying.

[transam]

Think you will find its £148 per week.

The guy is already on OAP so he will stick with that rate he is on now...13 weeks? hardly worth it flying backwards and forwards

For increases a person could stay 90 days in Thailand -- hop over to the philippines for long enough to register with DWP and hop back again for the next 90 days. Dunno about Pension Credits though - seems like that is a different ball-game

I am registered in LOS and my basic was topped up to 135 quid......

I know someone who's friend lives in LOS but pension wise lives in the UK , was caught out and is now having to pay money back.

[Johna5]

I worked 6 years in England before moving to Australia from age 16 to 22 and 3 years was as a apprentice, I will get a Australian pension as I have 35 years of working there, my question is would I be entitled to a pension from England even tough it would be very small, and would it be worth while applying.

I have no idea if you would be eligible for a UK OAP.

Applying is easy.

Detail in the link

https://www.gov.uk/state-pension-if-you-retire-abroad/how-to-claim

[prakhonchai nick]

I worked 6 years in England before moving to Australia from age 16 to 22 and 3 years was as a apprentice, I will get a Australian pension as I have 35 years of working there, my question is would I be entitled to a pension from England even tough it would be very small, and would it be worth while applying.

Every year of NI contributions count.

Depends when you are able to claim state pension. Currently you need 30 NI contributions for full pension, and 35 from April next year.

You should receive 6/30ths or 6/35ths.

Make the buggers work and pay you! It's rightfully yours as you paid in.

[loppylugs1]

Think you will find its £148 per week.

The guy is already on OAP so he will stick with that rate he is on now...13 weeks? hardly worth it flying backwards and forwards

For increases a person could stay 90 days in Thailand -- hop over to the philippines for long enough to register with DWP and hop back again for the next 90 days. Dunno about Pension Credits though - seems like that is a different ball-game

I am registered in LOS and my basic was topped up to 135 quid......

I know someone who's friend lives in LOS but pension wise lives in the UK , was caught out and is now having to pay money back.

Pray tell,how is the money being paid back?

[transam]

Think you will find its £148 per week.

The guy is already on OAP so he will stick with that rate he is on now...13 weeks? hardly worth it flying backwards and forwards

For increases a person could stay 90 days in Thailand -- hop over to the philippines for long enough to register with DWP and hop back again for the next 90 days. Dunno about Pension Credits though - seems like that is a different ball-game

I am registered in LOS and my basic was topped up to 135 quid......

I know someone who's friend lives in LOS but pension wise lives in the UK , was caught out and is now having to pay money back.

Pray tell,how is the money being paid back?

Remember this is a story I was told, so I cannot confirm it, but was told his payments were reduced to get "their" money back, perhaps he was claiming health benefits too as he "lives" in the UK .

I was told a large figure which to me sounds not only pension stuff. The story comes from a Thai wife of a farang, the guy is married to a Thai where the story comes from, a Thai lady.

[nev]

I worked 6 years in England before moving to Australia from age 16 to 22 and 3 years was as a apprentice, I will get a Australian pension as I have 35 years of working there, my question is would I be entitled to a pension from England even tough it would be very small, and would it be worth while applying.

Every year of NI contributions count.

Depends when you are able to claim state pension. Currently you need 30 NI contributions for full pension, and 35 from April next year.

You should receive 6/30ths or 6/35ths.

Make the buggers work and pay you! It's rightfully yours as you paid in.

Thanks, my thoughts exactly I have a few years before I can claim but next year I will go back and see family and while there I can go in and get things rolling.