People love to have people to look down on. There are some anti-fat people bigots here. It's sad.

If you actually CARED about fat people as PEOPLE, you'd be very interested in the medical issues about obesity and the hopes for cures. Like I said, the stomach tying operation already works. Works massively better than diet/exercise which almost always fails.

Yet you push this obsolete diet/exercise obsession that almost never works for what purpose? To help fat people? I don't believe it because it almost never works.

Working for me!

Seriously obese people are being offered surgery as one of the adjuncts to getting slim. Psychological groups have been set up to help them initially...in the same vein as AA style groups.

The surgery is done when they are happy to have it...and I can testify that they are all happy when they reach the Operating Room.

The after surgery aspect includes more counselling and advice on how to keep the weight off. Exercise is a big part of this.

Luckily for me I was nowhere near the size where exercise could end up killing me but the same thing of habits and altering them applies to anyone.

Negative views of fat people are endemic...and a natural response I think. They are simply considered lazy....when ill informed might be a better choice.

If you have never really felt the benefits of regular exercise then you don't know what you are missing!

Thaddeus, it's funny that you should point out the connections with addiction.

Food addictions ARE addictions. They ARE the things that IB says (in principle) he is sympathetic with: compulsive eating disorders.

If any of you know much about addictions of any sort, you will know that they are linked to self esteem, and that in particular trying to SHAME people who have such disorders (for example, by calling them repulsive, etc., as suggested by IB) simply makes the problems worse.

Addictions are not easy to treat. They take extensive support and mental health therapy, which most societies are unwilling to pay for (even in the UK, the amount of therapy provided such victims is minimal and of questionable effectiveness). And as smokers know, simply being told to quit or intellectually knowing that the problem will cause you health/social issues is not an effective remedy.

Endure- that's the biggie, carb addiction.

Your assumption that it is about weakness is simply wrong.

Actually, Jingthing has a valid point. There is a growing body of evidence that much obesity is caused by factors that are very difficult to control..

The obesity explosion that has swept the Western world over the past 30 years may have been caused by a virus, scientists have said. http://www.independe...us-2084737.html

I'm afraid that is nonsense. The epidemic has been caused by cheap crappy foods and consumerism. Before, the stupid people didn't have enough money to eat themselves into obesity.

Even the humble KIt Kat is now a four bar item where it used to be two. Crisps are sold in 50g packs instead of 30g.

The fast food giants take it to another level again.

When I was diagnosed as diabetic my meter told me that eating low-carb would be the best thing. I avoided all potatoes, rice, noodles and bread and lost 22lbs in 3 months without feeling hungry. I let my hair down at Christmas and on my birthday and have roast spuds, stuffing and all the other goodies. I also have fish & chips if I find myself in Skeggy or Mablethorpe. I've noticed that for a few days after a big carb meal I crave more carbs quite badly. I think there's a certain addictive element to carbs that makes it difficult to avoid them.

You are spot on with the carb hit. I watch them very carefully now. Especially bread which I used to eat a lot of. Now only once or twice a week max.

Your assumption that it is about weakness is simply wrong.

Actually, Jingthing has a valid point. There is a growing body of evidence that much obesity is caused by factors that are very difficult to control..

The obesity explosion that has swept the Western world over the past 30 years may have been caused by a virus, scientists have said. http://www.independe...us-2084737.html

I'm afraid that is nonsense.

I'll tell the doctors and scientists to stop the controlled studies that say otherwise. Smoky already has it all figured out.

I drink a bottle of beer a day, eat lots of bread, and potatoes every lunch time. If my weight starts rising, as it does from time to time, I cut out the beer. Diets do work, but they're long-term, and you can't just drop them when your weight has reached ideal; you have to go on, though perhaps in a modified way.

Yes, food is an addiction... but most of us can control it if we try. Some can't, and those I feel sympathy for.

This is the instant gratification generation; we all want quick answers, preferably answers which require no effort from ourselves.

Jingthing's 'fat brains' deserve a line or two in answer. Granted, if you like, that fat people have 'fat brains'; did the fat brains cause the obesity, or the obesity cause the fat brains? The rapid increase in clinical obesity suggests the latter; a biological change in the brain structure would take generations unless it was caused by an outside agency, e.g. bad eating and exercise habits.

Virus? Everything's a virus these days, UG. I don't take that very seriously.

Isanbirder, the very fact that you say an addiction can be 'controlled' shows that you don't understand what an addiction is. It is defined by a lack of control. It is NOT a matter of mere willpower. It is an illness, not a sign of deficient character. And these are the attitudes that make treating addiction so very difficult. Would you say the things you have just posted to a recovering alcoholic (and expect not to be shouted down)?

There are a number of clinical issues that are still poorly understood that could impact on obesity, and YES, they do potentially include parasitic or bacterial or viral influences, as well as unusual genetic factors.

I smoked for over 30 years and stopped because my brain finally got the idea that smoking was killing me.

I previously did some moderate to heavy drinking and stopped because my brain told me to stop.

I am presently about 15 kilos over my fighting weight (to quote Obama) and my brain is telling me to eat just one more Snicker bar.

Forget therapy and support groups. I was raised in the 40's and 50's so I have little use for that nonsense.

If something is bad for you and you realize it will lead to an early death, either stop doing the bad thing or die.

The choice is yours.

Your assumption that it is about weakness is simply wrong.

Actually, Jingthing has a valid point. There is a growing body of evidence that much obesity is caused by factors that are very difficult to control..

The obesity explosion that has swept the Western world over the past 30 years may have been caused by a virus, scientists have said. http://www.independe...us-2084737.html

I'm afraid that is nonsense.

I'll tell the doctors and scientists to stop the controlled studies that say otherwise. Smoky already has it all figured out.

The fact you felt the need to snip my quote should be answer enough for you.

If something is bad for you and you realize it will lead to an early death, either stop doing the bad thing or die.

The choice is yours.

Indeed......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kslHr7_9Zac

I turn on the tube and what do I see

A whole lotta people cryin' 'don't blame me'

They point their crooked little fingers ar everybody else

Spend all their time feelin' sorry for themselves

Victim of this, victim of that

Your momma's too thin; your daddy's too fat

Get over it

Get over it

All this whinin' and cryin' and pitchin' a fit

Get over it, get over it

You say you haven't been the same since you had your little crash

But you might feel better if I gave you some cash

The more I think about it, old billy was right

Let's kill all the lawyers, kill 'em tonight

You don't want to work, you want to live like a king

But the big, bad world doesn't owe you a thing

Get over it

Get over it

If you don't want to play, then you might as well split

Get over it, get over it

It's like going to confession every time I hear you speak

You're makin' the most of your losin' streak

Some call it sick, but I call it weak

You drag it around like a ball and chain

You wallow in the guilt; you wallow in the pain

You wave it like a flag, you wear it like a crown

Got your mind in the gutter, bringin' everybody down

Complain about the present and blame it on the past

I'd like to find your inner child and kick it's little ass

Get over it

Get over it

All this bitchin' and moanin' and pitchin' a fit

Get over it, get over it

Get over it

Get over it

It's gotta stop sometime, so why don't you quit

Get over it, get over it

I'm afraid that is nonsense.

I'll tell the doctors and scientists to stop the controlled studies that say otherwise. Smoky already has it all figured out.

The fact you felt the need to snip my quote should be answer enough for you.

Further to this in the UK in the last decade one of the fastest growing (no pun intended) type of surgeries is in the field of Bariatrics.

When I started work this was unheard of. There simply wasn't a large group of patients with this problem.

It all stems from people having access to, and eating all the wrong foods and way too much of it as well. Combine that with far less manual labour and you reap the effects.

I wonder what the statistics are for obesity in poorer societies?

A very apt article for this discussion.

New York Mayor wants to ban the sale of oversized soft drinks

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-05-31/nyc-mayor-bloomberg-seeks-ban-on-super-size-soft-drinks

The fact you felt the need to snip my quote should be answer enough for you.

Everyone who is reading the thread already read your post. I just commented on your main point.

If your contention is that someone who runs a marathon every day and eats like a sparrow will not get fat, I agree with you, but many studies have shown that a number of obese people are eating and exercising "normally" and still gain a lot of weight. Of course, some people are just gluttons, but many fat people are not.. They do not have the time or inclination to exercise for many hours every day and live on salads and who can blame them? It is pretty obvious that there is more to the obesity epidemic than fast food outlets and as Jingthing has already pointed out, diet and exercise do not work for many people who are sincerly sticking to both.

It's well accepted that reduced physical activity and fast food are linked to obesity. But the evidence that these are the main causes of obesity is "largely circumstantial," Allison and colleagues say. p://www.cbsnews.com/2100-500368_162-1757772.html

The fact you felt the need to snip my quote should be answer enough for you.

Everyone who is reading the thread already read your post. I just commented on your main point.

If your contention is that someone who runs a marathon every day and eats like a sparrow will not get fat, I agree with you, but many studies have shown that a number of obese people are eating and exercising "normally" and still gain a lot of weight. Of course, some people are just gluttons, but many fat people are not.. They do not have the time or inclination to exercise for many hours every day and live on salads and who can blame them? It is pretty obvious that there is more to the obesity epidemic than fast food outlets and as Jingthing has already pointed out, diet and exercise do not work for many people who are sincerly sticking to both.

It's well accepted that reduced physical activity and fast food are linked to obesity. But the evidence that these are the main causes of obesity is "largely circumstantial," Allison and colleagues say. p://www.cbsnews.com/2100-500368_162-1757772.html

I do understand the point you are both trying to make but my contention is that if they exercised more then they will be fitter and healthier.

I am not eating any less than when I was putting on weight, simply different and more healthy choices.

Again this problem as being described there simply does not exist is poor countries where more than two meals a day is a luxury.

Interesting discussion but that fact remains does it not?

The epidemic has been caused by cheap crappy foods and consumerism. Before, the stupid people didn't have enough money to eat themselves into obesity.

I lived in Moscow from 1994-1996. I saw two overweight young women in that time. Both had cameras around their necks and spoke English.

In 1996 I moved to Estonia and have lived here on and off since. The women were fantastic - they ranged from not bad to super hot. Not a fat chick to be seen. Today, the women are still hot but around 25% are overweight in my guesstimation. No super obesity - yet.What changed? Junk food, cars and more disposable income. I was in the advertising biz in the late 90's and we introduced things like Snickers and Pringles. I remember in 1996 that at night the only vehicles on the streets were taxis. Now there are private cars all over. This town even has rush hour traffic nowadays. People no longer need to walk to the bus stop or eat healthy.

The epidemic has been caused by cheap crappy foods and consumerism. Before, the stupid people didn't have enough money to eat themselves into obesity.

I lived in Moscow from 1994-1996. I saw two overweight young women in that time. Both had cameras around their necks and spoke English.

In 1996 I moved to Estonia and have lived here on and off since. The women were fantastic - they ranged from not bad to super hot. Not a fat chick to be seen. Today, the women are still hot but around 25% are overweight in my guesstimation. No super obesity - yet.What changed? Junk food, cars and more disposable income. I was in the advertising biz in the late 90's and we introduced things like Snickers and Pringles. I remember in 1996 that at night the only vehicles on the streets were taxis. Now there are private cars all over. This town even has rush hour traffic nowadays. People no longer need to walk to the bus stop or eat healthy.

Yeah...I go to Amsterdam a lot. People cycle everywhere...far less obesity.

The facts are staring people in the face yet they still will not believe it!

The epidemic has been caused by cheap crappy foods and consumerism. Before, the stupid people didn't have enough money to eat themselves into obesity.

I lived in Moscow from 1994-1996. I saw two overweight young women in that time. Both had cameras around their necks and spoke English.

In 1996 I moved to Estonia and have lived here on and off since. The women were fantastic - they ranged from not bad to super hot. Not a fat chick to be seen. Today, the women are still hot but around 25% are overweight in my guesstimation. No super obesity - yet.What changed? Junk food, cars and more disposable income. I was in the advertising biz in the late 90's and we introduced things like Snickers and Pringles. I remember in 1996 that at night the only vehicles on the streets were taxis. Now there are private cars all over. This town even has rush hour traffic nowadays. People no longer need to walk to the bus stop or eat healthy.

Yeah...I go to Amsterdam a lot. People cycle everywhere...far less obesity.

The facts are staring people in the face yet they still will not believe it!

People can find all sorts of excuses for why they are personally fat (Physically Misproportioned) these days.

It is the obesity epidemic!

It is genetics!

It is the new fat virus, Infectobesity!

It is My Mum's fault for feeding me the wrong food!

My partner cooks me too much food!

It's an addiction, I'm not responsible!

As others have pointed out on this thread, the thing that seems to always be missing, is personal responsibility. Taking personal responsibility for their own situation.

How about eating less? How about drinking less? People don't want to give up their own creature comforts. Modern society is a culture of consume consume consume. Be happy about your consumption. Consume some more and don't feel guilty. You are entitled to it!

Yes, their are some people who have genuine weight issues, but they are the vast minority of overweight people.

35 years ago in junior school, out of approx 50 boys, we had 2 fat guys. This is through a period of 7 years where the enrolment was almost unchanged.

One of the fat guys, his parents owned a candy store. The second fat guy was never fat until he went to the UK in Grade 4 and came back so fat no one recognised him. Why did he suddenly get fat? His diet changed . He told us how would he eat pork pies all day. He went form an environment where he ate okay and exercised in the playground all day to an environment where he did nothing but eat. So of the two fat guys, both had lousy diets.

I see kids the same age now and there are 40-50% of them who are overweight. Its a huge change. And not surprising when you look at what some of their parents put into their lunch boxes. processed muesli bars (full of sugar), chocolate fun bars (full of sugar and fat), small packs of chips, sugar loaded fruit drinks, etcetera.

35 years ago, chips/snacks/lollies came in smaller portions. Supermarkets opened Mon-Friday and half a day Saturday. There were no 24hour or late night open stores. You bought a bag of mixed lollies, maybe weighing 50 grams max.

Now....you buy everything in bulk. You buy 2-3 bags of lollies from the 7/11. You get big bags of chips. Even the small ones are big. Everywhere you go u can buy sugary food, fatty food, deep fried food, Salty food snacks...all cheap and easily available 24 hours a day from everywhere.

Want to eat out? No problem, come and have our all you can eat buffet! Don't want the buffet? How about our super over large sized servings? Why not have a soft drink with that? Oh, don't forget the dessert! After all, you deserve it!

I know, when I eat sugary, fatty, deep fried food..or lots of food that is not fresh, I put on weight. When I don't eat crap food, I lose weight, or I maintain my weight.

Personal responsibility, where has it gone?

You refuse to face reality. Diets do not work! Period. For 99 percent of obese people over the long term. So the diet choice is really diet and stay fat, more likely even fatter. But you aren't interested in facts, are you?

Of course diets and dieting work.

It is crash diets and fad diets that generally do not work over the long term.

The word diet and dieting have somehow assumed negative connotations for a lot of people.

Having a good basic diet day by day will see you getting healthy and losing weight over a period of time. The key is knowing what is good and bad for you food wise and having a modicum of self discipline.

I have never done a crash diet, but i do diet every week. I eat in moderation (not always the case for me) and I eat a lot of healthy fresh low fat low sugar low salt foods. I never buy pre packaged supermarket meals. I eat a number of potato chip products and ice cream products and bakery products, but I balance it out. I don't like feeling heavy and sluggish.

So dieting does in fact work, it works for me every week.

In October I weighed 98 kg. Now I weigh 89 kg and have been pretty steady for the past several months. This has been mainly achieved through portion control and not getting drunk anymore (last time Dec 21).

Self control - I would go to all-you-can-eat buffets but fill my plate once, and tried to fill it with as little carbs as possible. I went years avoiding carbs like the plague but now I usually have pasta every morning and don't fret over fries or bread if they are in front of me. I just don't eat anything to where I get stuffed.

Alcohol - I lost plenty of weight drinking Jack & Diet Cokes. But not getting drunk is keeping the weight off not because of calories, but because while sober I don't make bad decisions like eating junk food at 2:00 in the morning.

Snacking - I try to eat carrots or some other veggie, or a low-fat yogurt instead of kilos of peanuts/peanut butter like before.

It's not a diet, some fad program with a brand name that I am on for a limited time. It is MY diet, a lifestyle I plan to continue for the foreseeable future. It's not a sacrifice or torture so I should be able to stick with it - I hope.

I don't deny that SOME PEOPLE (most likely who are not truly addicted) can control their habits in various areas. But I'm afraid you guys are terminally ignorant if you think food addictions don't exist. Yes, society has MORE of them now- and they are more accessible addictions than the former ones to smoking, for example. People who have issues leading to addiction will find a substance to abuse and go for it.

Yes, everyone is personally responsible for getting help. But they are not responsible for their addictions, which usually come from family issues.

I'm going to give up now and recommend that all of you who wish to sneer at addicts burn your insurance cards, etc., because you should get used to being 'personally responsible' for your medical issues according to your own lights- and will we be seeing you posting in the health forum in the near future?

A very apt article for this discussion.

New York Mayor wants to ban the sale of oversized soft drinks

http://www.businessw...ize-soft-drinks

You might have overlooked this little snippet. Today is National Donut Day...per Bloomberg.

Worried About The Soda Ban? Fear Not, Bloomberg to Support ‘National Donut Day’ Tomorrow [Video]

By Colin Campbell 5/31 3:44pm

At Mayor Michael Bloomberg’s press conference touting his efforts to stop the sale of large soft drinks in restaurants, one reporter in attendance brought up the interesting fact that his administration also supporting “National Donut Day” tomorrow and inquired as to whether that muddled the mayor’s message on the issue.

Indeed, at 9:30 a.m. tomorrow morning, Entenmann’s will be unveiling “Custom-made Entenmann’s large donuts, 1-foot in diameter” at Madison Square Park at the same time they unveil a “Proclamation Letter by Mayor Michael Bloomberg.”

Edit in: Forgot the link http://politicker.com/2012/05/mixed-message-with-soda-ban-and-national-donut-day-endorsements-video/

I don't deny that SOME PEOPLE (most likely who are not truly addicted) can control their habits in various areas. But I'm afraid you guys are terminally ignorant if you think food addictions don't exist. Yes, society has MORE of them now- and they are more accessible addictions than the former ones to smoking, for example. People who have issues leading to addiction will find a substance to abuse and go for it.

Yes, everyone is personally responsible for getting help. But they are not responsible for their addictions, which usually come from family issues.

I'm going to give up now and recommend that all of you who wish to sneer at addicts burn your insurance cards, etc., because you should get used to being 'personally responsible' for your medical issues according to your own lights- and will we be seeing you posting in the health forum in the near future?

The closest thing I have to an insurance card is my credit card. I personally pay for everything out of my own pocket.

But you're right, some people have addictive personalities and can't control themselves. For whatever reason they always need more and don't know when anything is enough. A lot of people are strong enough to overcome this themselves. Some not so much and for them it isn't easy but that doesn't mean we should help them along by telling them it's natural to be 200 kg.

I don't deny that SOME PEOPLE (most likely who are not truly addicted) can control their habits in various areas. But I'm afraid you guys are terminally ignorant if you think food addictions don't exist. Yes, society has MORE of them now- and they are more accessible addictions than the former ones to smoking, for example. People who have issues leading to addiction will find a substance to abuse and go for it.

Yes, everyone is personally responsible for getting help. But they are not responsible for their addictions, which usually come from family issues.

I'm going to give up now and recommend that all of you who wish to sneer at addicts burn your insurance cards, etc., because you should get used to being 'personally responsible' for your medical issues according to your own lights- and will we be seeing you posting in the health forum in the near future?

I would have certainly considered myself "truly addicted" to nicotine since I was on 2 packs a day for over 30 years, I simply took the half pack out of my pocket that fateful day and told the the employee that was sitting across from me that I was quitting. Simple enough really.

I had no family issues growing up but I have had three wives. Does that count?

Hmmm. Didn't know we had a Health Forum.

I don't deny that SOME PEOPLE (most likely who are not truly addicted) can control their habits in various areas. But I'm afraid you guys are terminally ignorant if you think food addictions don't exist. Yes, society has MORE of them now- and they are more accessible addictions than the former ones to smoking, for example. People who have issues leading to addiction will find a substance to abuse and go for it.

Yes, everyone is personally responsible for getting help. But they are not responsible for their addictions, which usually come from family issues.

I'm going to give up now and recommend that all of you who wish to sneer at addicts burn your insurance cards, etc., because you should get used to being 'personally responsible' for your medical issues according to your own lights- and will we be seeing you posting in the health forum in the near future?

A very apt article for this discussion.

New York Mayor wants to ban the sale of oversized soft drinks

http://www.businessw...ize-soft-drinks

You might have overlooked this little snippet. Today is National Donut Day...per Bloomberg.

Worried About The Soda Ban? Fear Not, Bloomberg to Support ‘National Donut Day’ Tomorrow [Video]

By Colin Campbell 5/31 3:44pm

At Mayor Michael Bloomberg’s press conference touting his efforts to stop the sale of large soft drinks in restaurants, one reporter in attendance brought up the interesting fact that his administration also supporting “National Donut Day” tomorrow and inquired as to whether that muddled the mayor’s message on the issue.

Indeed, at 9:30 a.m. tomorrow morning, Entenmann’s will be unveiling “Custom-made Entenmann’s large donuts, 1-foot in diameter” at Madison Square Park at the same time they unveil a “Proclamation Letter by Mayor Michael Bloomberg.”

Edit in: Forgot the link http://politicker.co...rsements-video/

I did indeed overlook that snippet.

I think the NY mayor is just blowing smoke about the super size drinks anyway...publicity for himself and all that

I don't deny that SOME PEOPLE (most likely who are not truly addicted) can control their habits in various areas. But I'm afraid you guys are terminally ignorant if you think food addictions don't exist. Yes, society has MORE of them now- and they are more accessible addictions than the former ones to smoking, for example. People who have issues leading to addiction will find a substance to abuse and go for it.

Yes, everyone is personally responsible for getting help. But they are not responsible for their addictions, which usually come from family issues.

I'm going to give up now and recommend that all of you who wish to sneer at addicts burn your insurance cards, etc., because you should get used to being 'personally responsible' for your medical issues according to your own lights- and will we be seeing you posting in the health forum in the near future?

I smoked for 20 years and gave up. Was I addicted? Maybe I was. Did I seriously try and give up before I finally did? No, not really. I couldn't be bothered.

That addiction was still down to me. Still in my sphere to control. If I started saying 'I can't give up tobacco because Im addicted', I am just making an excuse. I'd still be smoking today , blaming 'my addiction'.

I believe most people are responsible for their own addiction. The causes behind why they feel the need to lose themselves in food/drink/tobacco/drugs is a different story. That might be the driving force behind the addiction, but you cant say that driving force negates their own responsibility's for the addiction they choose.

Why would u burn your insurance card if u are personally responsible for your own medical issues? You would keep the card so you can have the issues treated. That is taking responsibility. (as is posting on a medical forum to gain info regarding treatment of your ailments..you are taking responsibility for your own health).

IJWT picked me up earlier for saying that food was an addiction, but that most people could control it. I stand by that. An addiction is something difficult, sometimes fiendishly difficult, to control, and in some cases only is it beyond control. The classic example is smoking. I gave it up cold turkey, so did chuckd, but would you tell us we weren't addicted?

A friend of mine ate himself to death before he was 50. An ulcer burst inside somewhere, he developed peritonitis, and in the operating theatre, he burst, and gunk went everywhere. I suppose he didn't worry, but it was pretty nasty for everyone else. Just a cautionary tale for the grossly obese.

So just ignore the evidence that over the LONG TERM, for 99 percent of fat people, diet/exercise programs fail to cure their obesity. If you want to be smug (and totally ignorant) that the reason is all weakness and will power, so be it. It reminds me of rich people's smugness towards the poor.

So just ignore the evidence that over the LONG TERM, for 99 percent of fat people, diet/exercise programs fail to cure their obesity. If you want to be smug (and totally ignorant) that the reason is all weakness and will power, so be it. It reminds me of rich people's smugness towards the poor.

Where is this evidence JT?

By what you are saying.... Once someone becomes obese they can never go back.

So just ignore the evidence that over the LONG TERM, for 99 percent of fat people, diet/exercise programs fail to cure their obesity. If you want to be smug (and totally ignorant) that the reason is all weakness and will power, so be it. It reminds me of rich people's smugness towards the poor.

I second Bookman's request for the evidence you keep mentioning.

JT, you seem to love calling people ignorant. What do you mean by this, people who disagree with you?