Do You Leave Your Passport With The Motorbike People?

[BigC]

.

Holding a passport provides less security to the business than a cash deposit.

People have been posting about cash deposits of 5,000 baht or less. If you were to total the bike (and not yourself) and was asked to replace the bike, I think as a rental owner, I'd feel better about having a passport instead of 1/6th of the cost of the replacement bike. The reason passports are good collateral, as I said before, is that the owner MUST have it back to catch their flight out of Dodge. It's a lot more tempting to pull a runner and leave 5K on the table if you really crunched the bike.

It is also illegal.

You may be correct, but I'd like to see some evidence of this. My sense is that it is in the public consciousness that this practice is illegal, but legally and in fact, it is not.

Any business that takes a passport as guarantee is badly run.

That's quite a generalization. The shop down the way from me, for example, takes passports and is well run, the people couldn't be friendlier and their business has been growing to the point that they must be thinking of becoming something akin to Avis in Samui.

Simple really if anyone hasa problem with leaving their pasport then do not do it. FInd somewhere where u do not. As tey say out here up to you.

oone is forcing anyone to rent a bike. people have to use their common sense. most of us come froma world where all the laws protect us from usingour own brains. over here people have to bring their common snese with them.

[ydraw]

People have been posting about cash deposits of 5,000 baht or less. If you were to total the bike (and not yourself) and was asked to replace the bike, I think as a rental owner, I'd feel better about having a passport instead of 1/6th of the cost of the replacement bike.

I'll say it again as you seemed to ignore it last time: It's not like it's impossible to get a replacement emergency passport. It takes about 48 hours and costs about 3000 baht. I have done it before when mine was stolen. The emergency passport is valid for 1 year, after which you have to apply for a new proper one. All up doing this would cost you around 5000 baht.

You may be correct, but I'd like to see some evidence of this. My sense is that it is in the public consciousness that this practice is illegal, but legally and in fact, it is not.

Ok, here it is:

(4) A person commits an offence if:

(a) the person has possession or control of an Australian travel document; and

( the person knows that the document was not issued to the person.

Penalty: Imprisonment for 10 years or 1,000 penalty units, or both.

No Ifs, no buts. If you have a passport that doesn't belong to you, you are committing a federal crime punishable by up to 10 years in prison and/or $50,000. Is that clear enough? It doesn't matter if I owe you 30 million baht, you cannot hold my passport.

That's quite a generalization. The shop down the way from me, for example, takes passports and is well run, the people couldn't be friendlier and their business has been growing to the point that they must be thinking of becoming something akin to Avis in Samui

Their business would quite quickly cease to grow if they got hit with a $50,000 fine for repeatedly holding people's passports.

There's nothing "up in the air" or "shades of grey" about this. The only person allowed to hold your passport is you, or government officials/police. And even then, they can only hold it if you have been charged with a crime. Nobody else, for any reason.

Edited June 20, 2012 by ydraw

[Gulfsailor]

People have been posting about cash deposits of 5,000 baht or less. If you were to total the bike (and not yourself) and was asked to replace the bike, I think as a rental owner, I'd feel better about having a passport instead of 1/6th of the cost of the replacement bike.

I'll say it again as you seemed to ignore it last time: It's not like it's impossible to get a replacement emergency passport. It takes about 48 hours and costs about 3000 baht. I have done it before when mine was stolen. The emergency passport is valid for 1 year, after which you have to apply for a new proper one. All up doing this would cost you around 5000 baht.

You may be correct, but I'd like to see some evidence of this. My sense is that it is in the public consciousness that this practice is illegal, but legally and in fact, it is not.

Ok, here it is:

(4) A person commits an offence if:

(a) the person has possession or control of an Australian travel document; and

( the person knows that the document was not issued to the person.

Penalty: Imprisonment for 10 years or 1,000 penalty units, or both.

No Ifs, no buts. If you have a passport that doesn't belong to you, you are committing a federal crime punishable by up to 10 years in prison and/or $50,000. Is that clear enough? It doesn't matter if I owe you 30 million baht, you cannot hold my passport.

That's quite a generalization. The shop down the way from me, for example, takes passports and is well run, the people couldn't be friendlier and their business has been growing to the point that they must be thinking of becoming something akin to Avis in Samui

Their business would quite quickly cease to grow if they got hit with a $50,000 fine for repeatedly holding people's passports.

There's nothing "up in the air" or "shades of grey" about this. The only person allowed to hold your passport is you, or government officials/police. And even then, they can only hold it if you have been charged with a crime. Nobody else, for any reason.

Ok, you are talking about Australian law. It would be more interesting to see what Thai law says about it.

However, my Dutch passport clearly states: "This passport is the property of the state of The Netherlands. The bearer of this passport may pass it to a third party ONLY if there is statutory obligation to do so." I doubt that motorcycle rental shops are stipluated in Thai Law to have this right. Thus it is illegal for me to hand over my passport.

I can rent boats, cars and so much more without giving my passport as a collateral. Just a cash collateral or Credit Card is required. The reason is simple. These vehicles are fully insured for damage and theft. The taken collateral pays for the excess of the insurance. So the solution for the rental shop is quite simple. Fully insure the bikes. Oh wait, they can't, because then they could only rent out to people who hold a valid driving license to operate a 100+cc motorcylce. That would wipe out 90% of their potential customer base.

In my opinion, anyone renting out a motorcycle without full insurance should be banned from doing business, and knowlingly renting to someone that does not hold a valid driving license should be illegal (if it isn't already). Too many people die or get seriously injured every week in Thailand due to motorcycle accidents. It surprises me no rental shop was ever sued in civil court for wrongful death...

I am a very liberal person, and people should be allowed to asses their own risk, driving without a helmet for example. But many tourists don't realize how different these bikes are from their 49cc version at home, or how much more dangerous roads here are. Some rules are there for a very good reason. As one can't go serving liquor to a 12 year old (no matter how cool that would make the kid), one shouldn't rent out motorcycles to 18yr olds without the person fully understanding the risks involved, and having the necessary proven skills to operate one.

The fact that some motorcycle rental shops say they have no choice but to ask for a passport already proves, that there is a serious safety issue at play here. I guess for some, 150 Baht a day is just too good to care about these 'little problems'. If operating a bar, these same 'business people' would undoubtedly also keep serving alcohol to pissed drunk people, as long as they keep paying for it, and subsequently letting their customer drive of on a bike or in a car.

[PoorSucker]

So many are saying that the one renting out should get full insurance, but can you please name one company that will do it for a 2 year old click.

I haven't managed, so I take passport, driving license or 3000 baht in deposit.

I used to take photocopies of passport, but an Englishman forgot where he parked after a drunk night out with the keys in.

He just told me "What the <deleted> you gona do about it and left the Island"

Took me 2 weeks and three thousand baht "reward" to the police to get it back

Had problems with a Thai, I still has he's ID.

He called from Nathon and said he must leave the Island becase of unpaid debts, he told me he'll leave the keys under the seat and park at the seatran ferry.

Pretty descent man.

90% of my customers now are old friends so I don't bother taking any collateral.

[Razzler1973]

Really the OP's question was daft, WHO would leave an important piece of kit with someone they don't know. What if the renter said, sorry had a break in and your PP is gone, What happens next ?

Well I ask because but I have had 10s of renters allow me to stroll off when I wouldn't hand my passport over. It's very easy to say 'Noooooo, don't do it' but what are the alternatives if you want to rent a bike. I see lots of people riding around on bikes so either everyone is leaving a passport or everyone knows a way around it then I'd like to know!

If no one left their passport then renters would relax their demands instead of allowing me to stroll off from one to the other

[Razzler1973]

oone is forcing anyone to rent a bike. people have to use their common sense. most of us come froma world where all the laws protect us from usingour own brains. over here people have to bring their common snese with them.

No ... but it's nice, isn't it. If you're somewhere like Koh Chang it's nice to be able to go from place to place not on foot you're not just stuck on one beach and it's different getting a taxi from one place to the other (especially koh chang as they're not all that regular it seems)

[transam]

Really the OP's question was daft, WHO would leave an important piece of kit with someone they don't know. What if the renter said, sorry had a break in and your PP is gone, What happens next ?

Well I ask because but I have had 10s of renters allow me to stroll off when I wouldn't hand my passport over. It's very easy to say 'Noooooo, don't do it' but what are the alternatives if you want to rent a bike. I see lots of people riding around on bikes so either everyone is leaving a passport or everyone knows a way around it then I'd like to know!

If no one left their passport then renters would relax their demands instead of allowing me to stroll off from one to the other

Weeeeeeeeeeell, lots of daft folk out there then that think Noooooooooooo probs in the Land of Smiles. Remember, most folk are on holiday and think what a renter asks is the norm, LOS, again. WE know different.

[ydraw]

Well I ask because but I have had 10s of renters allow me to stroll off when I wouldn't hand my passport over. It's very easy to say 'Noooooo, don't do it' but what are the alternatives if you want to rent a bike. I see lots of people riding around on bikes so either everyone is leaving a passport or everyone knows a way around it then I'd like to know!

If no one left their passport then renters would relax their demands instead of allowing me to stroll off from one to the other

I rented from people I knew in town. Every bar and its dog rents out motorcycles in Lamai. I never needed to hand over a passport.

The first time I stayed here for more than 2 months at a time, I just bought a bike of my own. It only cost 15k baht, which is what I would have paid for 5 months of renting.

[BigC]

If it is illegal to hnd over your passport as a deposit then what is the penalty for doing so???

[insertmembernamehere]

I'll say it again as you seemed to ignore it last time: It's not like it's impossible to get a replacement emergency passport.

I understand this and don't care about it. This is not my point. My point is from the rental shop's viewpoint. As the one renting out vehicles (bikes), I want to be sure I have confidence that if something happens to my rented vehicles, I have recourse (that is effective). A 5,000 baht deposit might not cover my costs if there is a big accident. Holding a passport as collateral gives me more leverage, however illegal it could be according to a non-Thai law.

And however "easy" it might be for you to replace your passport, you might be in a time constraint to leave Thailand and would you really leave your passport at a rental shop if you didn't want to pay for a totaled bike? I'd walk away from a 5,000 baht deposit long before I would ever dream of walking away from my passport. That would be madness.

Aussie government: "Why do you need a new passport?"

Renter: "Oh, I left it as a deposit on a motorbike in Samui and totaled the bike and didn't want to pay the full price of a new bike, so I pulled a runner and just left my passport there. Can you get me a new one before a couple of days? I have a flight out to KL."

Their business would quite quickly cease to grow if they got hit with a $50,000 fine for repeatedly holding people's passports.

But that's just fantasy talk. Has the Australian government actually pursued such a case in Thailand, ever?

And where did you get "$50,000"? The website states "1,000 penalty units" whatever those are.

...but more to the point, you so conveniently left out the line at the bottom of the

Commonwealth Consolidated Acts site:

(5) Subsections (1), (2), (3) and (4) do not apply if the person has a reasonable excuse.

"I wanted to rent a motorbike on Samui," how's that for an excuse?

Sounds reasonable to me.

[Rooo]

There is a precedent set in another thread. I can't find it at the moment, but ut was a bike rental in KPG. The BIB were in cahoots with the rental company & refused to return the passport.

Embassy stepped in & asked for THEIR documentation ( Passport ) back, no one could hold onto it.

As I previously mentioned the embassies, Australian one at least take a very dim view of their citizens loosing passports & asking for replacements under these circumstances.They are not lost but in known individual's possession.

You can't just walk up & ask for a police report , as it's not lost.I will again repeat that if you declare it is lost, it's fraud.

If per chance the renter contacts your embbassy ,reporting that you scampered without paying the bill & they are holding your PP, you will have a lot of explaining to do.

Australian embassy allows you one replacement whilst travelling,after that it's not that easy, due to fraud , identity theft & terrorism.

Only talking about the one I know.

[TomTao]

When I did my last visa renewal the immigration officer told that I should not be anywhere without my passport, it should be in your possession every time you step out the front door, the officer said that if an immigration found me without my passport I would be given a warning and/or a fine, but if a policeman found me without my passport he could lock me up as an illegal immigrant until such time as I could prove I had a visa or could afford to pay any fine, very large fine that may be charged. Something to think about.

Sent from my GT-I9003 using Thaivisa Connect App

Edited June 21, 2012 by TomTao

[PoorSucker]

Take a look at Samui immigrations.

There's a box full of processed passports, just go in and pick one of the nationality you like, nobody checks.

[ydraw]

A 5,000 baht deposit might not cover my costs if there is a big accident. Holding a passport as collateral gives me more leverage, however illegal it could be according to a non-Thai law.

Putting the guy's head in a vice would give you leverage too. Equally illegal.

[insertmembernamehere]

When I did my last visa renewal the immigration officer told that I should not be anywhere without my passport, it should be in your possession every time you step out the front door,

If this was in Samui, you can discount it. They will tell you anything that pops into their heads.

And all this, "It's illegal" stuff is all find and dandy, but as with so many other things here, what is perfectly illegal is perfectly overlooked.

As one poster said, assess the risk factor and proceed as you will.

Putting the guy's head in a vice would give you leverage too. Equally illegal.

But I am guessing this would slightly diminish the guy's driving pleasure.

Edited June 21, 2012 by insertmembernamehere

[evadgib]

Here's my 2p:

1. Any company (hospital etc) that communicates via Hotmail, Yahoo, Gmail, Samart etc rather than [email protected] should be regarded as mickey mouse & avoided.

2. The same can be said for any company demanding Passports.

3. Anyone signing documents (bike contracts) written in a language they cannot read should at the very least put something to that affect at the point of signing. Documents written in Thai/English are unlikely to favour the hirer, indeed the local text usually says something like "I'll buy you a new one if I bend it" leaving hirers defenceless.

4. Reputable companies don't do it. I won't bother listing examples but that's the crux of it.

Edited June 21, 2012 by evadgib

[smokie36]

Just leave money instead.

Topic is

[Rooo]

Just leave money instead.

Topic is

I didn't know they made you a moderator smokie

[theblether]

As pointed out earlier........you are committing an offence in Thailand by not having it in your possession. Full stop.

On top of that Rooo is totally correct, it's not yours to give away. Full stop.

So if you want to expose yourself to a police charge by handing away your most important document then go right ahead.

As always, you'll get away with it until one day you don't get away with it then................

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qQIwfsuJaY

[insertmembernamehere]

So if you are a small, cash-based business, what do you ask as collateral?

I took a copy of one of the standard rental forms from a shop in KP. It has the quasi-exploded view of the outside of the bike and has a long numbered list of parts and their "replacement" costs. These do not include engine parts, brake shoes, electrics (besides lights), transmission/gears, bearings and any other internal parts. The parts specified in the list are outside parts -- those that would be affected should the bike be laid down, fall, or impacted in an accident. The total of these (mostly plastic) parts was MORE then the entire cost of a new bike. So clearly the costs of these parts are hyper-inflated, and teamed with the idea of "normal wear" being disregarded, an accident where the bike slides on its side and perhaps breaks off a mirror or something can run into the tens of thousands of baht. Remember however, these cost forms are included in the contracts that every shop, basically, uses and you are required to sign this contract. While the prices are ridiculous, it is the renter who signs the contract agreeing to these prices.

I myself tried to help a tourist in KP who had dropped a new Yamaha Mio (literally the bike had fallen forward off it's stand and had cosmetic scratches about a half inch long on a few areas where the body of the bike made contact with the ground) and the shop wanted the full "replacement" cost for each part "damaged" of 14,000 baht. When asked to summon the police, a "village elder" appeared and eventually the owners came down to 7,000 baht -- not only still wildly overpriced, but it was almost certain that no parts would be replaced since the damage was so minimal as to be almost unnoticeable. The renters had to settle since they needed their passports back.

These price lists are common and from what I have seen, all greatly exaggerate the prices of repairing/replacing damaged parts. Given this, and scruples aside, how can I accept a deposit of 3,000 to 5,000 baht as collateral? It simply isn't enough to secure the loan of the bike. People will not, in my opinion, put up 10,000 or 20,000 baht as a deposit for a bike (5,000 would give many pause anyway, I expect).

In the above example, if I was the shop owner who took a 3,000 baht deposit and the renter brought back a damaged bike (which repair costs totaled 14,000 baht according to the contract that the renter signed of his free will), I am in a spot. I did not secure the bike with a form of collateral that could cover my potential losses nor eliminated the flight risk of the renter. You can debate the honor of overpricing bike parts, and the fact that renters agree to this in writing, but this begs the point: I need collateral to secure the loan. Although lending out your passport is illegal in at least some countries (unless you have a good excuse) it is common practice in SE Asia.

As an aside, are the same people decrying the use of passports as deposits on rental bikes similarly vehement about tourists renting bikes and cars with no international driving license? That's illegal too. I'm guessing a vast proportion of renters have no valid license to drive legally in Thailand. Should not the shop renting the bike demand to see and hold a copy of this document and not rent to those who hope to drive illegally without one? If you are going to toe the legal line, you can't cherry pick.

[smokie36]

Just leave money instead.

Topic is

I didn't know they made you a moderator smokie

No mate....I laughed, look. They never do that.

Oops....

[PoorSucker]

Here's a new question.

Do you leave your passport to the hospital in case of sickness, emergency?

Maybe Bangkok hospital will take a photocopy or 3000 baht deposit.

[smokie36]

Here's a new question.

Do you leave your passport to the hospital in case of sickness, emergency?

Maybe Bangkok hospital will take a photocopy or 3000 baht deposit.

Haha...credit card only.

[Rooo]

Here's a new question.

Do you leave your passport to the hospital in case of sickness, emergency?

Maybe Bangkok hospital will take a photocopy or 3000 baht deposit.

Why should I leave my passpor there? Credit card imprint.

[PoorSucker]

Wow, you guys have credit cards?

So how much credit do you have.

Got a call from Bangkok hospital a couple of years ago, because a Swede could not speak good English and they needed a translator.

He and he's wife had separated on paper to get more contributions from the government, so her insurance policy was invalid.

Had to explain to him that his wife has been in ICU and treated in Hyperbaric Chamber for three days and the bill was 3.200.000 baht.

Apparently he's credit card was not that good.

[smokie36]

Ouch!

[insertmembernamehere]

I have not had a credit card for two decades or more. I do have a debit card, but that can't be used as an "imprint," and I do not keep much in that account for security reasons.

I think the notion of keeping your passport at hospitals is common, is it not? More goddamn lawbreakers! It's almost as if the people here don't even care about the law! How can this be? ...or better put:

Once in a Lifetime -- Talking Heads

You may find yourself living in a shotgun shack

You may find yourself in another part of the world

You may find yourself behind the wheel of a large automobile

You may find yourself in a beautiful house with a beautiful (Thai) wife

You may ask yourself, well, how did I get here?

Letting the days go by, let the water hold me down

Letting the days go by, water flowing underground

Into the blue again after the money's gone

Once in a lifetime, water flowing underground

You may ask yourself, how do I work this?

You may ask yourself, where is that large automobile?

You may tell yourself, this is not my beautiful house

You may tell yourself, this is not my beautiful (Thai) wife

Letting the days go by, let the water hold me down

Letting the days go by, water flowing underground

Into the blue again, after the money's gone

Once in a lifetime, water flowing underground

Same as it ever was, same as it ever was, same as it ever was, same as it ever was ๆ

[smokie36]

Cracking tune!

[Tropicalevo]

I think the notion of keeping your passport at hospitals is common, is it not? More goddamn lawbreakers! It's almost as if the people here don't even care about the law! How can this be? ...or better put:

Dunno about hospitals keeping passports - I have never shown mine. Just the Thai driving license. I never give them the option.

I once spent 3 weeks in Bangkok General and I didn't even take my passport with me. It was still on Samui. I did have medical insurance that paid for 85% of the bill though.

Sorry if this is Similar though.

(Apologies for editing out a great song.)

[BigC]

simple answer is don't crash or damage the bike and u get your passport back. if you do not trust the agency then find one that other people recommend.

The charm of thailand is the freedome to open a rental shop with out the government breathing down your back trying to kill your small business.

on the other hand it leaves customers a bit open, but try rening a bike in england for 4 quid a day and passport deposit.

people complain but they forget how lucky we are to be able to have all these things easily at our use.

anyway there is no shortage or rental shops on the island so there is allot of compition.

if you smash a brand new bike up then expect to pay fora new one.

if one gets stolen expect to pay for a new one.

if you dmagae the bike then expect to pay more than whast to garage would charge as they are a business not a charity. People for get that. When some brakes a abike or car and pay more than what a garage would charge well sorry but that is the fault of the customer.

Out here we have more freedome to use our own common sense, unfortunalty we come from countries where we a re protected from our slevs. if u cannot handle being a bit street wise and a bit more on the ball in this relaxed enviroment then i suggest you get your assses back to the concrete jungles u came from.

u might not have to pay for a damaged bike back home but then u probably would not be able to afford one plus tax MOT inssurence bike lisence.

then get nicked for speeding and have your lisence taken away for about 2 years. here is just a small fine once a week. its nothing.