If something is right it's worth fighting for. My only concern is individual rights & if that upsets the religios then they can fight back but one would hope they would look inward at why their faith allows this abuse on childrens basic individual human rights.

It is not child abuse. It is a minor medical procedure that we now know is health promoting and the most humane time to do this useful thing is infancy. Good luck with your crusade. You're going to need it.

I've said it before, this is something that is almost NEVER a problem for the adults who had it done. There are indeed a lot of much more important human problems in the world that do indeed well deserve human energy and activism a lot more than this triviality.

of course it's not a problem for the adults, it's already been done, what can they say or do, really? Might as well get on with it but it can be made a choice for future generations.

and of course you think JT won UG, you hold the same view, bit of a no brainer really.

Unbelievable really! This is the fourth longest thread in OTB's history.... on such a trivial subject.

perhaps next time when you are bored you take my advice on gravel stones and old ladies?

Unbelievable really! This is the fourth longest thread in OTB's history.... on such a trivial subject.

Trivial....to you.

I favour the individual choice of the individual who it is being done to. Take from that what you will.

Ideally we could ask the baby what his adult self would say about the matter. But we can't. So almost everywhere in the world the perfectly acceptable, perfectly safe, perfectly non-barbaric, health promoting MINOR surgical medical procedure of infant circumcision is available as LEGAL optional choice for the parents to decide. I say keep it that way but do more to promote informed parents on all of the pros and cons of the issue, including the obvious lack of possibility of getting consent. Also if you are telling them they should wait and let the child decide LATER, it is only fair to inform them that if they do decide later, it will be much bigger of a deal especially psychologically.

Yes but given a free choice every boy will say "No thanks."

Yes but given a free choice every boy will say "No thanks."

Very good. However...

An 8 day-old infant exercising a choice of any kind is not a realistic scenario. At 8 days the infant has no clear sense of himself as a separate identity from that of his mother and his immediate tactile environment. Even the urge to feed is not a choice to do so.

Individuality is ascribed to the infant by society. That's why we don't justify infanticide. Choice is something the individual has as a subjective capacity. The 8 day-old doesn't have it.

Unbelievable really! This is the fourth longest thread in OTB's history.... on such a trivial subject.

Penis chopping is never trivial.

Unbelievable really! This is the fourth longest thread in OTB's history.... on such a trivial subject.

perhaps next time when you are bored you take my advice on gravel stones and old ladies?

I've tried it, but the advocates of protection of old ladies keep interfering.

Unbelievable really! This is the fourth longest thread in OTB's history.... on such a trivial subject.

perhaps next time when you are bored you take my advice on gravel stones and old ladies?

I've tried it, but the advocates of protection of old ladies keep interfering.

Did you tell them about the health benefits of making them run?

Yes but given a free choice every boy will say "No thanks."

Very good. However...

An 8 day-old infant exercising a choice of any kind is not a realistic scenario. At 8 days the infant has no clear sense of himself as a separate identity from that of his mother and his immediate tactile environment. Even the urge to feed is not a choice to do so.

Individuality is ascribed to the infant by society. That's why we don't justify infanticide. Choice is something the individual has as a subjective capacity. The 8 day-old doesn't have it.

I'm referring to children being given the choice when old enough to decide for themselves.

At least 12 I would suggest.

Unbelievable really! This is the fourth longest thread in OTB's history.... on such a trivial subject.

Penis chopping is never trivial.

It's NOT "penis chopping'! You people will be complaining about compulsory haircuts next.... and I'm NOT putting that forward as a comparison to infant circumcision!

I am feeling this thread is entering the danger zone, so I think I will at least TRY to exit from it at this point.

I've said what I want to say at least ten times.

The anti-circumcision activists will keep on with what they do and they will face fierce opposition most everywhere they try to change the laws. And so it goes ...

Out of interest, what would we have to do to get this thread closed, as it doesn't seem that there islikely to be any change in opinions until we start to vigourously insult each other, at which time our opinions will become more polarised and extreme.

SC

we could discuss real interesting topics such as:

-why do Thais call me Farang, Farong, Farlung, Fallang, Furlong?

-how much sin sod do i pay for a 69 year old Isaan lady who walks on crutches?

-why are Thai ATMs charging racist amounts when i withdraw 25 Pounds?

-my Sino-Thai girlfriend wants me to pay for a new iPhone; is this fair?

-best fish and chips in Nakhon Nowhere?

-can i buy land with a userfruit?

-so i got new brake pads for my <insert car make>

-what will the weather be dec 17th in Nakhon Ratsashima?

Unbelievable really! This is the fourth longest thread in OTB's history.... on such a trivial subject.

perhaps next time when you are bored you take my advice on gravel stones and old ladies?

I've tried it, but the advocates of protection of old ladies keep interfering.

Did you tell them about the health benefits of making them run?

No, they threatened me with their umbrellas like Grandma Giles (sorry if that shows my age).

Unbelievable really! This is the fourth longest thread in OTB's history.... on such a trivial subject.

Penis chopping is never trivial.

It's NOT "penis chopping'! You people will be complaining about compulsory haircuts next.... and I'm NOT putting that forward as a comparison to infant circumcision!

It was a reference to the Southpark episode "Ike's wee wee" (I personally have no strong opinion either way)

Unbelievable really! This is the fourth longest thread in OTB's history.... on such a trivial subject.

Penis chopping is never trivial.

Abso-bloody-lutely

Unbelievable really! This is the fourth longest thread in OTB's history.... on such a trivial subject.

Penis chopping is never trivial.

Abso-bloody-lutely

They do bleed like buggery....

Yes but given a free choice every boy will say "No thanks."

Very good. However...

An 8 day-old infant exercising a choice of any kind is not a realistic scenario. At 8 days the infant has no clear sense of himself as a separate identity from that of his mother and his immediate tactile environment. Even the urge to feed is not a choice to do so.

Individuality is ascribed to the infant by society. That's why we don't justify infanticide. Choice is something the individual has as a subjective capacity. The 8 day-old doesn't have it.

I'm referring to children being given the choice when old enough to decide for themselves.

At least 12 I would suggest.

Sorry, I misunderstood.

I don't know what kind of choice a 12 year-old would have either. My son got the snip at 13 on medical advice. His choice would have been to suffer for a couple of days or suffer over a longer period. Not much of a choice really.

Of course, he could have chosen frequent irritation, infections, etc if he or his parents had a moral or religious objection to snipping. We could have vetoed the procedure on the grounds that (1) it might hurt, lots, and we don't want that, or (2) if God meant him to be flap-free, God would have designed him that way, so no snipping, thank you.

Yes for meducal reasons there is no choice. I think we all accept that.

However for other reasons surely the sensible thing to do is offer the child a choice?

The age of consent is a difficult one I must say.

So far only Taddy can tell us the difference....I feel sure with his effervescent personality he had a plethora of girlfriends before being marched up Tower Hill.....

In fact he makes a good point as plenty of guys have it done between the ages of 16-21 if they are too tight and it causes pain during intercourse. Usually marched along to the quack by the girlfriend.

Possibly kicking and screaming...I always wear earplugs on those occasions.

Yep, I had to have it done for medical reasons and I remember before and after, after is better for me, and I do prefer the lighthouse look over walnut whip.

I have never been blessed with children, a constant surprise, but if I had a baby boy just born and I was asked the question of snip or not snip, I would be torn between it should be his choice at a later age, and memories of how freaking painful it was when I had to have it done anyway. In all honesty, I'd probably go for snip.

I read Naam's post about hard bits forming on the end, and I've never had that happen, but then mine doesn't drag along the ground, and I've never used it for crushing chillies either.

Unbelievable really! This is the fourth longest thread in OTB's history.... on such a trivial subject.

Penis chopping is never trivial.

Abso-bloody-lutely

They do bleed like buggery....

I looked the topic up on a rugby league web site, and I understood that apparently (in Australia, at least) they use a non-excisory technique involving the foreskin atrophying and dropping off.

SC

I'm off to the pub to try to erase that mental image. Thanks for that SC.

If my son had medical issues with his foreskin, such as exscessive tighness & it was causing him pain & distress then as his parent I would authorise the surgery. That would be a valid example of a parents right to protect their childs right to live without pain & distress. I would just not agree to it for no good reason or on the off chance that he "might" have a medical issue later on in life relating to having a foreskin.

I'm outta here too. Perhaps this thread has run its course?

I'm outta here too. Perhaps this thread has run its course?

I'm outta here too. Perhaps this thread has run its course?

I can't believe you're all buggering off as soon as the topic of rugby league comes up

If my son had medical issues with his foreskin, such as exscessive tighness & it was causing him pain & distress then as his parent I would authorise the surgery. That would be a valid example of a parents right to protect their childs right to live without pain & distress. I would just not agree to it for no good reason or on the off chance that he "might" have a medical issue later on in life relating to having a foreskin.

Well Boo, that's why I said I would hum and har if asked the question, if it had never caused me problems and I was still intact I think I would edge towards no snip, but.

Don't worry, I am not really back, but this thread made me realize I am totally ignorant about Islamic circumcision customs. I didn't even know if they do infant circumcisions or later. So I thought I would share this info. They do later. When a ritual circumcision is done later it becomes a much bigger deal for the boy as such ceremonies are coming of age or coming into the religion ceremonies that the boy is aware of. With Jewish babies they are blissfully unaware of any meaning. An interesting difference.

So laws against infant circumcision wouldn't be an issue for Muslims in the same way they would be for Jews. Sorry for making that mistake on this thread. Hereby self corrected.

http://factsanddetai...55&subcatid=359

Muslim boys are supposed to be circumcised, but when is not specified. For most Muslims it is kind of coming of age right generally performed when a boy is six or seven, and is usually done at least before the onset of puberty. In a few Muslim communities it is done shortly before marriage.

Thanks for that JT. Its an interesting issue, with some forthright views of course, but I've learnt a few things about this subject so a thanks to all who contributed!

yesterday evening, after two glasses of Port, i told my wife about TV's heated snip discussion. her reaction was "and you say these are all rather educated people ?" then i mentioned that i am considering to have my pecker snipped because i will spread much less diseases globally. that made her sit up and shout "don't you dare! every millimeter counts!"

Your wife measures your willie in MILLIMETERS? I feel really sorry for her

Knowing Naam he was likely referring to the level of his port in millilitres!

They grow to an age when they can make informed decisions on circumcision, and correspondingly gain the benefits.

You're never going to accept as valid the opinion that people should have a right to make up their own mind on circumcision, rather than relying on their parents, are you?

SC

We've been over this 100 times already. Infancy is the ideal time to do it. If it is not done in infancy, it general does not get done, yet it is something where good SCIENTIFIC arguments can made for its health benefits, not to mention the religious and ethnic identity issue. If people are forced to wait, you force them into a much more traumatic experience if they do choose it, especially psychologically. Infancy is without a doubt the most humane time to do it, by far.

I accept it as a valid OPINION. I do not accept it as a valid or fair LAW. If such laws are passed, they would be horribly onerous and unfair.

You are arguing about legislation whereas everyone else is arguing about the OP's question "Is it fair ..."

SC