It's infant circumcision that we are talking about. Informed consent implies a knowledge of having or not having circumcision. So it is not only; does the infant have the capability to consent to having the circumcision but also; does the infant have the capability to consent to not having the circumcision. See what I am saying here?

If the infant passes on the consent to not being circumcised on to the the parent then the infant must also pass on the consent to being circumcised to the parent.

In either case informed consent is given and should not be an issue.

Yes, I agree.

Your OP was would you circumcise your son? No where was informed consent mentioned.

It's infant circumcision that we are talking about. Informed consent implies a knowledge of having or not having circumcision. So it is not only; does the infant have the capability to consent to having the circumcision but also; does the infant have the capability to consent to not having the circumcision. See what I am saying here?

If the infant passes on the consent to not being circumcised on to the the parent then the infant must also pass on the consent to being circumcised to the parent.

In either case informed consent is given and should not be an issue.

Yes, I agree.

Your OP was would you circumcise your son? No where was informed consent mentioned.

As usual, the thread has wandered rather a lot since the initial post. Many people have talked about 'informed consent', hence ChiangmaiKelly's post.

Indeed at post 542 I'm astonished we're still talking about circumcision!

It's infant circumcision that we are talking about. Informed consent implies a knowledge of having or not having circumcision. So it is not only; does the infant have the capability to consent to having the circumcision but also; does the infant have the capability to consent to not having the circumcision. See what I am saying here?

If the infant passes on the consent to not being circumcised on to the the parent then the infant must also pass on the consent to being circumcised to the parent.

In either case informed consent is given and should not be an issue.

Yes, I agree.

There's no need for informed consent to maintain the status quo - only to change it.

It's infant circumcision that we are talking about. Informed consent implies a knowledge of having or not having circumcision. So it is not only; does the infant have the capability to consent to having the circumcision but also; does the infant have the capability to consent to not having the circumcision. See what I am saying here?

If the infant passes on the consent to not being circumcised on to the the parent then the infant must also pass on the consent to being circumcised to the parent.

In either case informed consent is given and should not be an issue.

Yes, I agree.

There's no need for informed consent to maintain the status quo - only to change it.

I am old. If I don't put a stent in an artery I may have a heart attack. The status quo would be to do nothing, in fact before the invention of stents that is what happened. But the Doctor demands my informed consent not to act on his advice and put in a stent. I can think of at least ten more examples where to maintain the status quo would need informed consent. End of live issues lead the pack where not doing something may lead to death. So, no I don't agree. In some cases informed consent is necessary to maintain the status quo. Not being circumcised may lead to many things happening or taking the chance they might happen according to many people. If you choose not to believe those people that is of course up to you but your informed consent is demanded one way or the other.

It's infant circumcision that we are talking about. Informed consent implies a knowledge of having or not having circumcision. So it is not only; does the infant have the capability to consent to having the circumcision but also; does the infant have the capability to consent to not having the circumcision. See what I am saying here?

If the infant passes on the consent to not being circumcised on to the the parent then the infant must also pass on the consent to being circumcised to the parent.

In either case informed consent is given and should not be an issue.

Yes, I agree.

There's no need for informed consent to maintain the status quo - only to change it.

I am old. If I don't put a stent in an artery I may have a heart attack

Which is a medical emergency and, as I have said in the past, I'm all in favour of medical emergencies (including circumcision) being dealt with as expeditiously as possible. You are also old enough to give informed consent.

A 10 day old baby is not old enough to give informed consent and unless there is an immediate medical need should not have parts of his body removed because a bunch of people think it might improve his life 30 years down the line.

Yes, I agree.

There's no need for informed consent to maintain the status quo - only to change it.

I am old. If I don't put a stent in an artery I may have a heart attack

Which is a medical emergency and, as I have said in the past, I'm all in favour of medical emergencies (including circumcision) being dealt with as expeditiously as possible. You are also old enough to give informed consent.

A 10 day old baby is not old enough to give informed consent and unless there is an immediate medical need should not have parts of his body removed because a bunch of people think it might improve his life 30 years down the line.

Maybe we are talking about two different things. I think the parents have the duty and privilege of being able to grant informed consent. If I was unconscious my wife has the duty and privilege to give informed consent for me.

Stents; you can have one put in or not. It may be an emergency or it may not be. It may be a matter of days before it becomes an emergency or years. You can try other treatments first or not depends on what you or the doctor think.

I am saying the parents can make a decision based on what they believe and that qualifies as informed consent. I think where we disagree is I think circumcision of an infant is a health issue and you don't. I think it is a health issue based on the information I have already posted ( Circumcision in infancy now encouraged by the CDC, AAP, AUS, WHO, UNAIDS, NIH, and a pediatric journal.) You disagree. OK. I also think we may disagree on what informed consent is. I think not doing anything demands informed consent and I think the parents can give it. I don't think you do.

I just came off a bad-arse penis injury so i think i have something to add...

with no foreskin to cover the head, it is a pain beyond oblivion to wear clothes at all,

have some mercy at those poor boys, it's a sick obsolete cult

I recently celebrated 40 uncircumcised years and am flying in the face of advice from the CDC, AAP, AUS, WHO, and others.....

OK I admit....I'm more waving around.... ......but no problems so far.

I'll let you all know how I'm getting on again at 50. Can hardly wait.....the WHO must be cringing at the thought....or busy with their voodoo dolls.

i wasn't myself and didn't consider it or a minute for either of my boys - millions of years of evolution didn't give us a foreskin for no reason - it's there because it's supposed to be and unless there's a medical reason to cut it off there it should remain.

unless there's a medical reason to cut it off there it should remain.

According to the CDC, AAP, AUS, WHO, and others..... there is.

i wasn't myself and didn't consider it or a minute for either of my boys - millions of years of evolution didn't give us a foreskin for no reason - it's there because it's supposed to be and unless there's a medical reason to cut it off there it should remain.

Bits and pieces get left over after their evolutionary purpose has disappeared. We have a tail too! And no, you may not cut off my tail!

I'm fore it.

I'm fore it.

No skin off your ....., is it, Maccaroni Man?

Does evolution have a purpose?

I am cut and proud of it. I have no memory of it happening nor any envy of those who are not. I have no ill will towards my parents and many of my lovers have said they prefer the trimmed to natural. I do not understand why it is an issue.

I am cut and proud of it. I have no memory of it happening nor any envy of those who are not. I have no ill will towards my parents and many of my lovers have said they prefer the trimmed to natural. I do not understand why it is an issue.

If you click on Most replies at the top of the OTB list, you will find that this is the fourth most popular thread ever on OTB. Weird, isn't it?

I am cut and proud of it. I have no memory of it happening nor any envy of those who are not. I have no ill will towards my parents and many of my lovers have said they prefer the trimmed to natural. I do not understand why it is an issue.

If you click on Most replies at the top of the OTB list, you will find that this is the fourth most popular thread ever on OTB. Weird, isn't it?

I suppose we all like to wave our willies about.

I am cut and proud of it. I have no memory of it happening nor any envy of those who are not. I have no ill will towards my parents and many of my lovers have said they prefer the trimmed to natural. I do not understand why it is an issue.

If you click on Most replies at the top of the OTB list, you will find that this is the fourth most popular thread ever on OTB. Weird, isn't it?

I suppose we all like to wave our willies about.

Speak for yourself, SC. You're not in a gay bar now.

My Cousin Le Roy says his working girls like Circumise tricks better

Two more babies stricken with herpes after ritual ultra-orthodox Jewish oral blood sucking circumcision in New York City

[...]

Department of health warns there being no safe way to perform the ritual that dates back more than 5,000 years

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2304793/Two-babies-stricken-HERPES-ritual-oral-blood-sucking-circumcision-New-York-City.html

hmm, nothing creepy about sucking a newborn babies penis, you know, cause it is a religious right, so not creepy or weird at all!!

I am cut and proud of it. I have no memory of it happening nor any envy of those who are not. I have no ill will towards my parents and many of my lovers have said they prefer the trimmed to natural. I do not understand why it is an issue.

you have no memory of it happening but you are "proud" of it?

I am cut and proud of it. I have no memory of it happening nor any envy of those who are not. I have no ill will towards my parents and many of my lovers have said they prefer the trimmed to natural. I do not understand why it is an issue.

you have no memory of it happening but you are "proud" of it?

Just as well. Imagine going through life having to hide your willy away, ashamed to take it out in public.

I am cut and proud of it. I have no memory of it happening nor any envy of those who are not. I have no ill will towards my parents and many of my lovers have said they prefer the trimmed to natural. I do not understand why it is an issue.

you have no memory of it happening but you are "proud" of it?

Just as well. Imagine going through life having to hide your willy away, ashamed to take it out in public.

finally i know the reason why i hesitate to show my willy to the general public. i am ashamed! how can somebody be proud of his hooded willy? thank you so much for enlightening me SC. will ask my wife later whether she will accept a 'nekkid maccaroni' so that both of us can rejoice with mutual pride.

Two more babies stricken with herpes after ritual ultra-orthodox Jewish oral blood sucking circumcision in New York City

[...]

Department of health warns there being no safe way to perform the ritual that dates back more than 5,000 years

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2304793/Two-babies-stricken-HERPES-ritual-oral-blood-sucking-circumcision-New-York-City.html

Well this topic has certainly received a lot of (ahem) coverage for such a small piece of skin. In the interests of consistency I can't condone archaic ritual practices that carry a health risk, though I have no problem with the principle of male circumcision, in view of the reported health benefits. I would observe this problem is minuscule in comparison to the suffering and health risks caused by female circumcision, which though banned in the west never seems to lead to any prosecutions.

To put things in perspective the link reports on 2 deaths since 2000 due to religious male circumcision rituals, compared to a death rate of 2.3% for female circumcision, according to the WHO.

http://whqlibdoc.who.int/hq/2011/WHO_RHR_11.18_eng.pdf

Two more babies stricken with herpes after ritual ultra-orthodox Jewish oral blood sucking circumcision in New York City

[...]

Department of health warns there being no safe way to perform the ritual that dates back more than 5,000 years

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2304793/Two-babies-stricken-HERPES-ritual-oral-blood-sucking-circumcision-New-York-City.html

Well this topic has certainly received a lot of (ahem) coverage for such a small piece of skin. In the interests of consistency I can't condone archaic ritual practices that carry a health risk, though I have no problem with the principle of male circumcision, in view of the reported health benefits. I would observe this problem is minuscule in comparison to the suffering and health risks caused by female circumcision, which though banned in the west never seems to lead to any prosecutions.

To put things in perspective the link reports on 2 deaths since 2000 due to religious male circumcision rituals, compared to a death rate of 2.3% for female circumcision, according to the WHO.

http://whqlibdoc.who.int/hq/2011/WHO_RHR_11.18_eng.pdf

The trouble with female circumcision is that there's nothing to argue about..... it's an abomination, and that's final!

Just because one is more horrific than the other doesn't detract that the other is also an abomination.

Why are others so bold to pass judgment and draw lines as to what is right and wrong? As for pride I have no memory of my conception either so does this mean I should not be proud of myself? How many complaints have been filed by males who are cut at birth? My guess is less than 0.01%