So you object to having laws which apply to everyone regardless of gender, age, sexual orientation, race, nationality, colour etc? It is not I who calls for special treatment dear chap.

Wrong. I think male circumcision should legal for everyone, in all countries, and also legal for parents to authorize it for infants. I also fully support international health efforts to promote widespread circumcision in countries with very high HIV risk. My position is clear and consistent. For people who oppose this medical procedure, they should be free to broadcast their views, but not free to mess with people's freedom to do this often BENEFICIAL procedure, including restrictions of the rights of parents to authorize it at the most ideal time which is infancy.

Wrong except for 'age'. Why should children not be afforded the same protection as adults?

Wrong except for 'age'. Why should children not be afforded the same protection as adults?

Parents make all kinds of decisions for children. Is it fair? Is life fair?

Wrong except for 'age'. Why should children not be afforded the same protection as adults?

Parents make all kinds of decisions for children. Is it fair? Is life fair?

Some of which are legislated such as education. I'm sure you would agree that the right of a child to have an education is more important than a supposed right of a parent not to give him or her one. Parents are custodians of their children, they do not in any way own them.

Wrong except for 'age'. Why should children not be afforded the same protection as adults?

Parents make all kinds of decisions for children. Is it fair? Is life fair?

Some of which are legislated such as education. I'm sure you would agree that the right of a child to have an education is more important than a supposed right of a parent not to give him or her one. Parents are custodians of their children, they do not in any way own them.

Who could disagree with that? On potential anti-circumcision laws, obviously different societies have the right to pass such laws, but I just hope they don't. I think circumcision is a GOOD thing and the time to do it is at infancy.

Wrong except for 'age'. Why should children not be afforded the same protection as adults?

Parents make all kinds of decisions for children. Is it fair? Is life fair?

Some of which are legislated such as education. I'm sure you would agree that the right of a child to have an education is more important than a supposed right of a parent not to give him or her one. Parents are custodians of their children, they do not in any way own them.

Who could disagree with that? On potential anti-circumcision laws, obviously different societies have the right to pass such laws, but I just hope they don't. I think circumcision is a GOOD thing and the time to do it is at infancy.

Good answer which deserves reflection.

my my, the victim card is out in force again hey Jingthing. calm yourslef down will you.

I have made my opimion very clear, I am not attempting to persecute any religion only pointing out that it would be morally preferrable to allow boy's of those religions to go through the process when they are at an age to agree to it. This would only require a small change in procedure not a total change of dogma.

But I am quite disgusted at the opinion that the child has less human rights than the parents. if that is religion, I want no part of it.

http://www.jewsagain...rcumcision.org/

interesting link, and proves that at least not all Jews beleive a stop to this practice is religious persecution

http://www.beyondthe...r-responds.html

another one questioning the AAP & it's stance on this subject.

wow, would seem that there are jewish males (presumably without foreskin & not happya bout it) who ARE against it.

http://intactnews.org/node/103/1311885181/jews-speak-out-favor-banning-circumcision-minors

and an article about a group of jews who hold a similar view to me, that it shouldn't be done on babies.

and I think this forum proves the point that there are men out there who are not indifferent or happy to have been cut as a baby

http://foreskin-restoration.net/forum/showthread.php?t=11208

Oy vey. You can find internet links to support ANY fringe opinion. I already mentioned a small minority of Jews are against it.

yes but their rights & their voice are just as valid. That they have taken time to actually make websites, raise protests & approach government means that it is more than just a few people. Or are you suggesting that they are not valid enough because it doesn't agree with YOUR opinion on the subject.

and my last link clearly shows that not everyone who has had it done is happy about it. Or do you discount their views as they do not agree with yours?

Clearly something is wrong.

All religions want children indoctrinated one way or another...this is a form of branding in effect.

Its nothing short of medieval.

Most modern Jews do circumcision as a mark of ETHNIC IDENTITY and not for religious fundamentalist reasons.

All religions want children indoctrinated one way or another...this is a form of branding in effect.

Its nothing short of medieval.

It's older than that dude.

yes but their rights & their voice are just as valid. That they have taken time to actually make websites, raise protests & approach government means that it is more than just a few people. Or are you suggesting that they are not valid enough because it doesn't agree with YOUR opinion on the subject.

No of course minority views have the right to express themselves. Please do not put words into my mouth with loaded questions (something you have now done repeatedly) and falsely accuse me of intolerant attitudes that I do not have.

This reflects the majority mainstream Jewish opinion on the subject. Which I agree with:

This is a serious tradition, one for which Jews have fought and sacrificed throughout our long history. It is not harmful, and it may have medical benefits. The proposed ban should and will be opposed by all right-thinking people of any religious faith and by decent people without faith who recognize the rights of parents to decide, within broad limits, what is best for their own children.

Read more: http://forward.com/a.../#ixzz25od2eV6e

Oh my god. you really are a peice of work, talk about passive agressive. You seem to thrive off being a victim, please tell me you don't pull this rubbish in your real life.

Threatening and intimidating!! and this after your near hysterical ranting a few posts back telling ME to back off & that as a non jew I have no right to question the practices. If I were moderating this thread I would have done it then.

I have to wonder what else got cut off when they were doing your foreskin.

Oh my god. you really are a peice of work, talk about passive agressive. You seem to thrive off being a victim, please tell me you don't pull this rubbish in your real life.

Threatening and intimidating!! and this after your near hysterical ranting a few posts back telling ME to back off & that as a non jew I have no right to question the practices. If I were moderating this thread I would have done it then.

I have to wonder what else got cut off when they were doing your foreskin.

Do you really think it is appropriate for you to launch such a personal attack against me on a public forum, even Bedlam?

BTW, non-Jew is capitalized. I wonder if that was an intentional form of disrespect.

do as you will, I cannot in any situation take you seriously. You are unable to have a discussion as rational adult.

do as you will, I cannot in any situation take you seriously. You are unable to have a discussion as rational adult.

Funny, my experience with you here has me feeling that way about YOU.

facebook pages, numerous websites & movements against this practice in infancy prove to any rational human being that the situation ins't as clear cut as just a religious right.

If it is outlawed then I'm sure the pc brigade will start shouting about their (minority) rights without taking into account the (minority) rights of those being physically harmed. very oppressive really.

do as you will, I cannot in any situation take you seriously. You are unable to have a discussion as rational adult.

Funny, my experience with you here has me feeling that way about YOU.

Yes I'm sure you do but given your posting history I will take that as a compliment.

Which is why it should not be outlawed. How about requiring parents to attend a seminar where the latest arguments pro and cons are presented, and then let them decide for themselves after they have been exposed to the information? I have never said there weren't downsides to the procedure. But there are also benefits from it and additionally benefits to getting it over with in infancy. So logically it should be a choice for the parents. I am not against this becoming a bigger social issue, but I am against LAWS dictating the decision that parents decide to make. I am not denying there is an ethical issue to doing to the procedure to infants, that's typical in a SOCIAL issue.

do as you will, I cannot in any situation take you seriously. You are unable to have a discussion as rational adult.

Funny, my experience with you here has me feeling that way about YOU.

Yes I'm sure you do but given your posting history I will take that as a compliment.

I get it. You don't like me. But you have power here. I don't. So you are intimidating.

sad

sad

I agree but I think we are sad about different things.

i wasnt saying i was sad. I get it. you dont like how the discussion is going so decided to gain some ground by making up some stuff about being intimidated because I am a mod. You didn't feel it several pages back but now you do. In my 10 year mod experiences here in TV, every single time that happens it is due to someone not being able to hold their own argument.

My post referenced was in no way intimidating or threatening nor in a different style to my various other posts in this thread. So you can either handle the discussion, or not, the latter seems to be the case right now.

i wasnt saying i was sad. I get it. you dont like how the discussion is going so decided to gain some ground by making up some stuff about being intimidated because I am a mod. You didn't feel it several pages back but now you do. In my 10 year mod experiences here in TV, every single time that happens it is due to someone not being able to hold their own argument.

My post referenced was in no way intimidating or threatening nor in a different style to my various other posts in this thread. So you can either handle the discussion, or not, the latter seems to be the case right now.

No, you attacked me personally. You made this into a personal thing instead of a content thing. If you don't get that, I am sorry, but its there for anyone to read.

Your post 160 is objectively a rude baiting question, indicating a false personal stereotype of me, and coming from a mod, yes intimidating. Your reality is not the only reality. If you don't believe me how you come across, that doesn't mean I am not right about it.

only after you turned it personal by claiming I was threating & intimidating you.

But lets try this....are you able to move on if I inform you that I was not being intimidating nor threatening nor planning on moderating the thread?

Can you get over it I wonder?

BTW, non-Jew is capitalized. I wonder if that was an intentional form of disrespect.

BTW, non-Jew is capitalized. I wonder if that was an intentional form of disrespect.

Like it or not, this is an issue of great significance to Jews and I can assure you I reflect the majority opinion of Jews that we've been through this before with non-Jews forcing us not to follow our traditions, and that is simply not acceptable to most Jews anymore.

no one on this thread is "forcing" you to do anyting.

http://www.drmomma.org/2011/01/neonatal-circumcision-video-for.html

If anyone is brave enough, watch this video & tell me that this is not distressing for babies. One interesting thing I wasn't aware of is that the baby is restrained!