Australian, 93, Faces Sexual Assault Charges In Thailand

[Nisa]

On a side note ... I always find it odd that the Presumtion of Innocent rule is always expressed as "innocent until proven guilty" ... to me that certainly seems like there a lean towards being guilty as if it is going to happen at some point. Shouldn't it be expressed as, "innocent UNLESS proven guilty"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presumption_of_innocence

[theblether]

You need to stop talking so much sense nisa......it isn't appreciated here.

Right........I'm away for a pint, so no more replies from me tonight. Have fun.

[joeboy123]

This is very hard to believe, the poor guy is another victim of the thai corrupt justice system

[Nisa]

You need to stop talking so much sense nisa......it isn't appreciated here.

Right........I'm away for a pint, so no more replies from me tonight. Have fun.

Yea - time to go but sad because I really do like debating things like this (guilt, innocent, legally not guilty ...) and actually love when somebody can point out an opposing view that I didn't consider or know but I have yet to see anything that suggests this guy didn't do the crime anymore plausible than the moon landings were faked ... both certainly could be true but I just can't see believing either given the facts as we know them and the lack of plausible contradictory proof (or even just rational speculation). In fact, I have come closer at times, debating with people, to believing the moon landings could be faked than believing this guy is innocent. Sucks too because I love conspiracies but they are almost always Conspiracy Theories that easily fall apart when examined.

Edited October 5, 2012 by Nisa

[Nisa]

This is very hard to believe, the poor guy is another victim of the thai corrupt justice system

I think it is a racist thing and it is not only something Thais are guilty of,but even our own people. Back home most of the farangs accused of or locked up for crimes are innocent too ... just ask them

[ttelise]

This is very hard to believe, the poor guy is another victim of the thai corrupt justice system

I think it is a racist thing and it is not only something Thais are guilty of,but even our own people. Back home most of the farangs accused of or locked up for crimes are innocent too ... just ask them

Haha, there is NISA. Alawys posting on the race thing. I suppose the Thai justice system not corrupt either. Who knows if this guy is guitly or not, but if I recall from earlier threads on this, there was extortion attempts, something about guys bank account getting drained by cops after he went into custody and all kinds of craziness. None of us know for sure if he did it, except common sense, says something does not quit pass the sniff test here.

Face it extortion and shakedowns are the way of life and justice system in Thailand. If this was neither acceptable nor the case, perhaps people would not be so inlcined to question things such as this. Has nothing to do with race and everything to do with corrupt, dishnoest people who lack morals and those that condone and perpetuate such behaviours. They can be black, white, yellow, green, borwn or etc. I don't care, they all suck when they act that way.

[Bender]

With thai police its just about money, always about money. Do you think these mafia in uniform really do care about justice or children.

In fact this is not the first time that the police try to extort money with false allegation.

Remember 2 years ago, in pattaya the famous russian musician Pletnev was also facing charge child sex offence.

Same story just different mafia.

No proof, just speculation

The russian was quite wealthy.

But in spite of the allegation he was allowed to leave the country for his work. Of course RTP did hope he will be frightenned and will do a runner... and RTP will be able to seize all his asset.....

But he still choose to come back and fight the charge, hey actually he did have the means to afford a good lawyer.

[Nisa]

This is very hard to believe, the poor guy is another victim of the thai corrupt justice system

I think it is a racist thing and it is not only something Thais are guilty of,but even our own people. Back home most of the farangs accused of or locked up for crimes are innocent too ... just ask them

Haha, there is NISA. Alawys posting on the race thing. I suppose the Thai justice system not corrupt either. Who knows if this guy is guitly or not, but if I recall from earlier threads on this, there was extortion attempts, something about guys bank account getting drained by cops after he went into custody and all kinds of craziness. None of us know for sure if he did it, except common sense, says something does not quit pass the sniff test here.

Face it extortion and shakedowns are the way of life and justice system in Thailand. If this was neither acceptable nor the case, perhaps people would not be so inlcined to question things such as this. Has nothing to do with race and everything to do with corrupt, dishnoest people who lack morals and those that condone and perpetuate such behaviours. They can be black, white, yellow, green, borwn or etc. I don't care, they all suck when they act that way.

WOW ... I really wrote that very short post thinking that even a person who had difficulty with the obvious could comprehend it to be an over the top sarcastic joke but I still didn't stop there, I even included a picture of a little winking face for those who might have trouble with English and/or ironic jokes.. It is a constant surprise to me to see what people choose to believe and then react upon the belief despite all obvious facts contradicting such belief.

[endure]

@endure

You forgot the part in the process that states " Suspect jumps bail and flees the country "

Jumping bail and fleeing the country would be evidence to be presented before a court of law. Everyone deserves a fair trial untainted by hysteria.

We'll need to agree to disagree on this one........the guy has a right to a fair and open trial,

Disagree about what? I said that all defendants have a right to a fair trial and your words above appear to agree with me. If you're implying that I'm defending Kraus rather than the justice system then I defy you to quote the words that I said which do so.

[GentlemanJim]

@GentlemanJim

You're just guessing now

Just like cbrer......he dug up one article that was written totally from the accused's perspective and fell for it, and he's spent the rest of the thread trying to justify it. Seriously, give it up, both of you

Your gonna look so stupid when this trial concludes.

No, I won't look stupid. I have done nothing other than try to convince you to stop your hateful judgmental attacks before a trial has been concluded. I am not the one looking stupid here Blether. If he is guilty, good, jail him, if he is innocent, good let him go free, but you are the armchair expert with your mind made up and worse still voicing it.

What am I guessing at? Are you saying he has done prison time for rape in Thailand?

I note your clever edit........

No he didn't do time for rape.......guess what? ( and your good at guessing ), he bought his way out of it. How about that then?......he gave the victim a few quid and walked away without doing jail time. By his own admission eh?........of course being the type that he is he had to say " It was a stitch up Guv ".

Now I ask you......if you had been stitched up on a false rape allegation and extorted.......what would you have done?

By the way....it wasn't Thai journalism......your doing that anti-Thai thing again. I do wonder how you guys can sleep at night in a country that you obviously distrust so much.

Ok Blether, you have gone a little to far with the self righteous attitude and as usual are unable to discuss anything without getting personal. There is no 'clever edit', i choose to add, rectify correct my posts as required, nothing clever about it.

Where is the information regarding his 'previous for rape' as you put it. Where is the reference that is stating he paid money to someone and the details of the case.

Do not state to me that I am 'doing the anti Thai thing again'. When have you ever seen me write anti Thai stuff? Are you seriously trying to tell me that you believe the quality of Thai journalism is sound and trustworthy? Read the articles on here every day and tell me whether the articles are satisfactory from a point of view of presenting accurate, grammatically correct information that is never open to misinterpretation. People here complain every day about the accuracy of the media reports and just between two newspapers, the conflicting information can be mind boggling.

I do sleep soundly Blether because this is a country I love and live in. I am here 24/7 and have a deep understanding of Thailand it's strengths and it's weaknesses and those of it's people. I display a level of commitment both to the local community and to the country that DOES afford me a better understanding of the inadequacies of the everyday Thai justice system than that that claimed to be known by people that sit many thousands of miles away and come here 4 times a year to get their rocks off claiming to know about the real country and how it works. Not once have I passed judgement on this guy to his guilt or innocence, I have simply asked that you refrain from the pack tendency of the disgraceful lynch mob mentality until he has had his day in court, but you relentlessly hound people down. It is sickening and uncivil.

[ttelise]

This is very hard to believe, the poor guy is another victim of the thai corrupt justice system

I think it is a racist thing and it is not only something Thais are guilty of,but even our own people. Back home most of the farangs accused of or locked up for crimes are innocent too ... just ask them

Haha, there is NISA. Alawys posting on the race thing. I suppose the Thai justice system not corrupt either. Who knows if this guy is guitly or not, but if I recall from earlier threads on this, there was extortion attempts, something about guys bank account getting drained by cops after he went into custody and all kinds of craziness. None of us know for sure if he did it, except common sense, says something does not quit pass the sniff test here.

Face it extortion and shakedowns are the way of life and justice system in Thailand. If this was neither acceptable nor the case, perhaps people would not be so inlcined to question things such as this. Has nothing to do with race and everything to do with corrupt, dishnoest people who lack morals and those that condone and perpetuate such behaviours. They can be black, white, yellow, green, borwn or etc. I don't care, they all suck when they act that way.

WOW ... I really wrote that very short post thinking that even a person who had difficulty with the obvious could comprehend it to be an over the top sarcastic joke but I still didn't stop there, I even included a picture of a little winking face for those who might have trouble with English and/or ironic jokes.. It is a constant surprise to me to see what people choose to believe and then react upon the belief despite all obvious facts contradicting such belief.

The only joke portion if your thread related to everyone locked up elsewhere also thinks they are innocent.

What facts contradict what I said? For instance what specific sentence or phrase did I state that are contradicted by facts.

[GentlemanJim]

@GentlemanJim

You're just guessing now

Just like cbrer......he dug up one article that was written totally from the accused's perspective and fell for it, and he's spent the rest of the thread trying to justify it. Seriously, give it up, both of you

Your gonna look so stupid when this trial concludes.

I think you agree that people do deserve a fair trial but there is such a thing as using logic too when it comes to the average Joe (not somebody involved in the trial) expressing opinions and it seems fairly confidently the chances this guy is innocent is very remote and the chance he will be found not guilty is just as remote not just based on the information/evidence reported but also the fact it has progressed this far in the court system. What I find unusual is the folks taking illogical stances to try to show he may be innocent ... I mean come on, the police are lying about having photos of him with naked children because they weren't released to the press or because they didn't have a photo shoot of the arrest of him or the children pointing at him and worse trying to say this is the norm when it fact it is not but they simply don't get that they times the police do it, it sticks out in their mind. Even in the west when they make drug busts they sometimes show pictures of the guns or drugs seized in the press but have never heard anyone suggest the cops are setting somebody up because such photos are not shown. And odder yet is I have a feeling many of the folks going all out to want to suggest it is a frame up are the same posters who will scream guilty when a Thai (especially Thai Women) is accused of a crime against a farang.

I understand people being biased but it really is misplaced when you go out of your way to try to find reasons to say a guy didn't molest kids when there is nothing to suggest a frame up and tons of evidence reported to indicate he did the crime including parents testimony, numerous child victim testimony, maid testimony, photo evidence and likely computer evidence to mention just some of the things we are privy too. Then there is all the evidence to suggest there is not a police setup and none to support there is ... claims of extortion / blackmail? This is usually only done when the other person has something on you but now the guy for his second time has accused the police of extorting money from him over sex crimes he didn't commit? Then the authorities choose not to go after charges of his fleeing while on bail??? Yet these are people out to get him? Then there is the suggestion there are no pictures (I believe there are videos too) as if police are going to go to court and say the lost more than a 100 photos and didn't make copies or scan them into a computer or maybe the police simply Photoshoped the pics of him with naked kids as if the accused and his team and the court are too stupid to check these things but for some reason the folks on ThaiVisa could tell if they would just post some of the pics online for us.

I mean if somebody has a valid point of why they think this guy might be innocent then please share it but all I have heard so far is fairly far fetched.

Does anybody really think he is going to be found not guilty?

The only valid point I have been trying to make with you...because he has not been found guilty in a court of law yet and that is not far fetched, it is fact. I have not made one of the other 'excuses' for him you have mentioned. The ONLY evidence you are going on is one media article, all the rest were written from that. Don't you think that a bit risky considering the standard of Thai journalism?

Well first, if the post doesn't apply to you then don't worry about. Second, has anybody here stated he HAS been found guilty in a court of law? Third, we are not in a court of law and Innocent Until Proven Guilty is a law for the courtroom and juries (which there are none here) and it doesn't apply to people expressing their opinions when not legally judging the guy.

As for Thai Journalism, they get things wrong as does the press around the world and worse we are often dealing with translation issues but there is nothing to suggest the media here conspires to purposely lie and that is what it would take for the same facts to be repeated wrong by not only all the Thai Media but the International / foreign media that have picked up on this case and have also been covering it for a long time. Being a foreigner too means that he has somebody at the Embassy who has also looked at the case.

A couple questions since I answered yours ...

Do you think the police are lying about and/or have faked the photographs being reported or that all the reports of these photos (and I believe videos) are false?

If your answer is no and you believe there are photos of the the child accusers naked and photos of him posing with nude children, then what do you think the chances are that this guy didn't do what the children claim?

Trust me when I tell you that by having an opinion it isn't going against the right to a fair trial or that the accused is innocent unless proven guilty.

Nisa

To answer your question. I honestly have no idea about any photographs whether found or faked. There is a media report that Police found many photographs and if that is the case then I trust they will be duly presented in court as evidence against the accused.

I trust you concerning 'having opinions', now you need to trust me when I tell you that the Australian Embassy will NOT have looked in to this case. I wrote a post earlier explaining exactly what the Embassy can and cannot do, and also what they WILL NOT do I happen to have a great deal of knowledge in this matter and what I am telling you is true. It has no bearing on the case other than you should not lend any weight to someones guilt thinking that the Embassy would have done something, or that their silence is evidence they think he is guilty. They have not looked in to it, lets be quite clear about that. They are not permitted.

I note from your later posts that you like to debate and that is good, likewise. It would help your case to establish a non conflicting debating relationship if you would not align yourself with someone who has appointed themselves as the thread bully, who is using language and arguments that are totally inappropriate, unnecessary and vindictive. All he is doing is pi****g off many rational intelligent people and sadly you are being tainted with the brush he uses to portray himself. There is stating opinion and then there is going much much further..in either direction I might add. I look forward to a thread on Moon landings, it will be far less stressful.

[candid]

I can only wonder about theblether's attitude on this thread. It is certainly far removed from his normal, well thought out posts. Maybe this will help. There have been times when my lifestyle ie coming to Thailand about 6/7 times a year has caused raised eyebrows back home in Scotland. There is some kind of train of thought over there that all visitors to Thailand might be paedophiles. Indeed, a workmate of mine, who had a gf and baby in Thailand had a helluva job getting his mother to visit because of this. Nothing beats old fashioned Scottish ingrained opinionated hatred. Rights or wrongs do not matter, it is just there and always will be

In grained Scottish hatred of paedophiles? yes, that's me.

Make your next post a good one, you're crossing into dangerous territory.

Make my next post a good one. Or what? Am I guilty of a Blether crime also? Looks to me like you are getting second prize on this thread. Whatever respect people may have had for you previously is fast draining away. You are living up to your nickname, which is not really a nice thing to be in Scotland anyway. Pure and simple, you are a Blether. Coming over to Thailand on holiday and pontificating as you do has a limited, if sometimes entertaining charm. What we are seeing is a tourists perspective, not someone who lives here. But your language right from your first post has been below your ususal standards. In fact, a lot lower than the very low standrads you strive to attain normally.

[DocN]

If guilty, will this make him the oldest ever paedophile convicted by a court, in the history of mankind?

Just googling and one 89 year old came up, but his crimes occurred in the 1970s and 80s.

Another at 76, but it occurred 25 years ago.

...and that matters....because....????

[chiangmaikelly]

If guilty, will this make him the oldest ever paedophile convicted by a court, in the history of mankind?

Just googling and one 89 year old came up, but his crimes occurred in the 1970s and 80s.

Another at 76, but it occurred 25 years ago.

...and that matters....because....????

It would be very odd for a 93 year old person to commit a sex crime.

[NewlyMintedThai]

If guilty, will this make him the oldest ever paedophile convicted by a court, in the history of mankind?

Just googling and one 89 year old came up, but his crimes occurred in the 1970s and 80s.

Another at 76, but it occurred 25 years ago.

...and that matters....because....????

It would be very odd for a 93 year old person to commit a sex crime.

Based on...what? The elderly have sexual desires just like the rest of us. Never heard of a dirty old man?

[chiangmaikelly]

If guilty, will this make him the oldest ever paedophile convicted by a court, in the history of mankind?

Just googling and one 89 year old came up, but his crimes occurred in the 1970s and 80s.

Another at 76, but it occurred 25 years ago.

...and that matters....because....????

It would be very odd for a 93 year old person to commit a sex crime.

Based on...what? The elderly have sexual desires just like the rest of us. Never heard of a dirty old man?

A 93 year old dirty old man? No. Have you? List reference please.

[NewlyMintedThai]

At what age do you expect people's sexual desires to go away? I know several blokes and women sexually active in their nineties.

If you want me to trawl the internet for nonagenarian sex offenders, you're out of luck. But feel free to do so yourself, as it's a pointless exercise. Even if you find none it doesn't mean that this guy didn't do what he's accused of...no more so than it would prove his guilt if you did find some.

Edited October 6, 2012 by NewlyMintedThai

[coma]

If guilty, will this make him the oldest ever paedophile convicted by a court, in the history of mankind?

Just googling and one 89 year old came up, but his crimes occurred in the 1970s and 80s.

Another at 76, but it occurred 25 years ago.

...and that matters....because....????

It would be very odd for a 93 year old person to commit a sex crime.

Based on...what? The elderly have sexual desires just like the rest of us. Never heard of a dirty old man?

Exactly. What are you basing your claims that 93 year olds still have sexual desires ? Are you speaking from personal experience or are you a Geriatrician ?

[DocN]

So...you are saying "No way he did it!"...because he is old???

Two words: crack-pipe> down!

[chiangmaikelly]

At what age do you expect people's sexual desires to go away? I know several blokes and women sexually active in their nineties.

If you want me to trawl the internet for nonagenarian sex offenders, you're out of luck. But feel free to do so yourself, as it's a pointless exercise. Even if you find none it doesn't mean that this guy didn't do what he's accused of...no more so than it would prove his guilt if you did find some.

I didn't say he didn't do it. I said it would be odd if he did at 93. It would be odd if a 93 year old robbed a bank or played ice hockey too. All possible I'm sure but odd.

[NewlyMintedThai]

At what age do you expect people's sexual desires to go away? I know several blokes and women sexually active in their nineties.

If you want me to trawl the internet for nonagenarian sex offenders, you're out of luck. But feel free to do so yourself, as it's a pointless exercise. Even if you find none it doesn't mean that this guy didn't do what he's accused of...no more so than it would prove his guilt if you did find some.

I didn't say he didn't do it. I said it would be odd if he did at 93. It would be odd if a 93 year old robbed a bank or played ice hockey too. All possible I'm sure but odd.

It's an odd old world, eh?

[cbrer]

'A fair trial'.... in Thailand!

Will it be the same Chiang Mai justice system that sentenced MURDERER Thomas Douglas to 3 years in exchange for cash?

Cash payment lightens murder sentence in Chiang Mai court

Edited October 6, 2012 by cbrer

[cbrer]

What % of the police applicants in that test cheating ring paid 300k thb to pass the police entrance exams again?

I sure hope none of the upstanding member of the Royal Thai Police who are dealing in this case did such an illegal thing to get their position of power.

[ttelise]

What % of the police applicants in that test cheating ring paid 300k thb to pass the police entrance exams again?

I sure hope none of the upstanding member of the Royal Thai Police who are dealing in this case did such an illegal thing to get their position of power.

Those are just the ones that got caught.

[cbrer]

Interesting, from the people who are bizarrely desperate for him to be guilty we've so far had:

A false claim of previous for rape.

A false photograph of an elderly man being pointed at by 2 young Thai girls in a police station, claiming that it is him.

A claim that the Australian police force are involved in the case (so it must be more legit?).

It's bizarre the lies that ye need to tell yourselves in order to 'prove' this guy as guilty.

[cbrer]

What % of the police applicants in that test cheating ring paid 300k thb to pass the police entrance exams again?

I sure hope none of the upstanding member of the Royal Thai Police who are dealing in this case did such an illegal thing to get their position of power.

Those are just the ones that got caught.

Absolutely.

A putrid system unfit to try anyone.

Blatantly obvious to all who aren't blinkered.

[coma]

'A fair trial'.... in Thailand!

Will it be the same Chiang Mai justice system that sentenced MURDERER Thomas Douglas to 3 years in exchange for cash?

Cash payment lightens murder sentence in Chiang Mai court

Classic Thai justice.

[JeremyBowskill]

is he not dead yet? shame!

Edited October 6, 2012 by JeremyBowskill

[barefoot1988]

mod must be working hard to removing personal attack posts and those retarded fake evidences and photo of the accused. never had i seen so much posts removed

seriously people, lets just chill down and respect each and other opinion instead of resorting to some personal attacks. and seriously whats with these misleading photos and evidence? that got me scratching my balls in confusion

any idea when the trial will be held? i believe if the evidence are rock solid, the trial shouldnt be too far away

some people are pretty messed up, i wouldnt be too surprised if he is indeed guilty, that is saying i wouldnt be too suprised too if he was being setup.