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No God, Not Even Allah

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And in the absence of anything remotely comparable,I have to say that my christian upbringing gives me a set of morals

SC

Morals are innate. Do you think we could have made it to the foot of mount Sanai if rape, theft and general pillage was the order of the day? Morals already existed, Christianity etc. just plagiarized it.

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And in the absence of anything remotely comparable,I have to say that my christian upbringing gives me a set of morals

SC

Morals are innate. Do you think we could have made it to the foot of mount Sanai if rape, theft and general pillage was the order of the day? Morals already existed, Christianity etc. just plagiarized it.

Well I think I had to be tought how to behave. I think morals come from society. That's the principal difference that justifies out tolerance towards the behaviour of children.

Personally, I'd rather not take a chance. I've got a moral upbringing that keeps me in line with societal expectations, and keeps me the right side of incarceration, and I hope to instil an equally effective set of moral principles in my children. Unfortunately, I don't have an easily shared set of scriptures to reference, which are common to those that their school uses

SC

Well I think I had to be tought how to behave. I think morals come from society.

SC

Which existed long before the Christ figure. You seem like a nice fella and I'm sure that if you ditched all that Christian BS you would be and still have resulted in being a nice fella. What point belief in a celestial dictator? To wish it to be true is to wish to be an abject slave and I object to ownership of another human being. The Bible endorses slavery and even says how to treat slaves but I'm having none of it.

Well I think I had to be tought how to behave. I think morals come from society.

SC

Which existed long before the Christ figure. You seem like a nice fella and I'm sure that if you ditched all that Christian BS you would be and still have resulted in being a nice fella. What point belief in a celestial dictator? To wish it to be true is to wish to be an abject slave and I object to ownership of another human being. The Bible endorses slavery and even says how to treat slaves but I'm having none of it.

I'm a christian. I have a book composed of the memoirs of some bloke of another bloke that they followed around for a while, and who put forward some ideas., Those ideas have stood my society in good stead for almost two thousand years; why would I chnage them now? necause some of the underlying precepts may be a little bit ecclesiastical? Maybe the trouble is that too many atheists take religion too literally; I don't know - it's not my place to figure out why atheists have so much trouble with people of other faiths

SC

Well I think I had to be tought how to behave. I think morals come from society.

SC

Which existed long before the Christ figure. You seem like a nice fella and I'm sure that if you ditched all that Christian BS you would be and still have resulted in being a nice fella. What point belief in a celestial dictator? To wish it to be true is to wish to be an abject slave and I object to ownership of another human being. The Bible endorses slavery and even says how to treat slaves but I'm having none of it.

You'ld need to tell me what Christian bullshit to sacrifice. Is it the healing on the sabbath? the love for your fellow man? The tolerance and forgiveness? The casting out of the money-lenders from the temple? I really don't know which of my beliefs you want me to throw away but on the other hand, I don'r really care. You can believe what you want, and I will believe what I believe. I doubt we will find ourselves in treacle and sulphur for the shortcomings of what we have been convinced to believe, though no doubt some may feel that our behaviour warrants at least a modicum of brimstone

I don't know - it's not my place to figure out why atheists have so much trouble with people of other faiths

SC

It's not a faith, it's a rejection of a claim as I keep saying.

You can believe what you want

Yet again... It is the rejection of a claim.

That would be a great start if theists could understand that rejecting a claim is nothing like making a claim.

You can believe what you want

Yet again... It is the rejection of a claim.

That would be a great start if theists could understand that rejecting a claim is nothing like making a claim.

Atheists believe that there is no god. There is exactly 0 gods. That is as precise a claim as believing that there is a god with a flowing white beard and a bleached white sheet for a dressing gown.

Agnostics believe that we cannot know whether there is a god or not.

Agnostics do not accept either claim. Atheists make their own claim. Perhaps some people who claim to be atheists are in fact agnostics. perhaps some people do not understand the logic of their own position.

SC

Well I think I had to be tought how to behave. I think morals come from society.

SC

Which existed long before the Christ figure. You seem like a nice fella and I'm sure that if you ditched all that Christian BS you would be and still have resulted in being a nice fella. What point belief in a celestial dictator? To wish it to be true is to wish to be an abject slave and I object to ownership of another human being. The Bible endorses slavery and even says how to treat slaves but I'm having none of it.

state valid reasons why you don't have slaves. i consider your behaviour outrageous. if by chance my slaves find out they might demand to be set free.

Well I think I had to be tought how to behave. I think morals come from society.

SC

Which existed long before the Christ figure. You seem like a nice fella and I'm sure that if you ditched all that Christian BS you would be and still have resulted in being a nice fella. What point belief in a celestial dictator? To wish it to be true is to wish to be an abject slave and I object to ownership of another human being. The Bible endorses slavery and even says how to treat slaves but I'm having none of it.

state valid reasons why you don't have slaves. i consider your behaviour outrageous. if by chance my slaves find out they might demand to be set free.

I can't afford them. Anyway, I'd look a right arse lording it over a bunch of slaves when I live in a corrugated iron lean-to shack on the outside of an estate wall.

SC

Atheists believe that there is no god.

Agnostics believe that we cannot know whether there is a god or not.

Agnostics do not accept either claim. Atheists make their own claim. Perhaps some people who claim to be atheists are in fact agnostics. perhaps some people do not understand the logic of their own position.

I have never considered myself an agnostic as I believe in a creator, but I have learned that I am a type of agnostic that I had never heard of.

Agnostic theism: The view of those who do not claim to know of the existence of any deity, but still believe in such an existence.

...many professing agnostics are nearer belief in the true God than are many conventional church-goers who believe in a body that does not exist whom they miscall God.

- Leslie Weatherhead (Christian theologian)
You can believe what you want

Yet again... It is the rejection of a claim.

That would be a great start if theists could understand that rejecting a claim is nothing like making a claim.

Atheists believe that there is no god. There is exactly 0 gods. That is as precise a claim as believing that there is a god with a flowing white beard and a bleached white sheet for a dressing gown.

It's the rejection of a claim and no other information can be got from it.

I ask some chap at a party what his profession is and informed that he is a carpenter. He asks if I am also a carpenter to which I say no.... That makes be an acarpenter. No claim is being made and no addtional information can be gleened from it. This is why the option 'other' on the form described would be wrong.

You can believe what you want

Yet again... It is the rejection of a claim.

That would be a great start if theists could understand that rejecting a claim is nothing like making a claim.

Atheists believe that there is no god. There is exactly 0 gods. That is as precise a claim as believing that there is a god with a flowing white beard and a bleached white sheet for a dressing gown.

It's the rejection of a claim and no other information can be got from it.

I ask some chap at a party what his profession is and informed that he is a carpenter. He asks if I am also a carpenter to which I say no.... That makes be an acarpenter. No claim is being made and no addtional information can be gleened from it. This is why the option 'other' on the form described would be wrong.

The information gleaned from your statement is you don't know anything about hanging a door.

Nor nailing anything to it.

"Hud oan a minute, Ah wiz oanly kiddin' oan Ah wiz a joiner"

The Big Yin, Billy Connolly

  • 5 weeks later...

Having recently moved back to Australia from Thailand, I've not caught up with this thread, though it is a topic that interests me. Not, however, to the extent that I want to engage in debate over the question of God's existence. For me, that question bears no fruit, though it's one that I suppose everyone asks themselves at some point in their lives, and for some the question hangs in the air longer than it does for others.

For me, there is no answer to the question of whether there is a supreme being, an underpinning supra-cosmic force, or a unified universal field of consciousness. We can only say that things exist; hence there is existence. Maybe we can capitalize it and call it Existence, or God, if you will, but equally possible, there many be no It; no fundamental underpinning noun from which all the verbs, all the processes, derive. We don't know; we can only refer to our intuition. Of course, arguments like the one from design are logical and may be compelling, but the objection of infinite regress is persuasive, too, as long as one thinks in linear terms. And so on ...

I think propositions about the possible existence of God can be put in the form of a tetralemma, i.e. God is, or is not, or both is and is not, or neither is nor is not. If God exists (He) does not exist in any form we can define. If God is that which underpins and unifies existence, then God exists as long as anything exists. If existence subsists in God but does not constitute (Him) (i.e. God transcends all phenomena, including mental), then God both exists and does not exist. The category of existence does not apply to God's transcendence, only to its manifestation in phenomena. You can see why Kant rejected the argument for God as necessarily existent. God could not be both subject and object in Kant's ontology (though he is in Hinduism and for the mystics of all religions).

We can see from the previous paragraph that the question "Does God exist?" is absurd. God is spoken of as a member of a category that is comprised solely of (Him) self and which, though it can be inferred (projected), is undefinable (i.e. without meaning). For God to exist as an entity that we can define and point to, (He) would need to have physical form, as the philosopher Hobbes asserted, and, perhaps surprisingly, is believed as an article of faith by Mormons. You can see why some people refer to themselves as Ignostics, or Theological Non-cognitivists. They believe any discussion about "God" makes no sense whatsoever.

To me, what counts and does make sense in a mystical, non-cognitive way (though at the end of the logical string it is also absurd) is that existence exists and/but has no boundary in time, space or dimension. I have faith that there is a unifying and underpinning force behind it all and that that force is conscious, but to believe so is purely an act of faith, maybe not even belief. Maybe just a form of consolation. But no; I believe that, when it's all said and done, existence is more than the sum of its parts.

All I know is, that to me, without God, none of this makes sense, so I believe in God, but that does not mean that there is one.

169.jpg

Plato's 'to on', XSH?

I don't know what this is, IB, but I think there are parallels with what I'm saying in Plato via Plotinus and Neoplatonism, but I have a very limited grasp of what these philosophers taught (apart from the Cave parable, of course, and Plotinus on emanation).

Schopenhauer, who was influenced by the Upanishads, posited a "Will" - a generative, thrusting force that gives rise to phenomena. This is a unifying force, a kind of One, but it has no intellect and no moral intent, purely a desperate drive to manifest itself in any form. All forms are, to some degree, manifestations and expressions of the Will's urge to be embodied, but there is no underlying love or kindness in the Will. The Will is as much at home in "nature, red in tooth and claw" as in the mystical love poetry and meditative practices of the Sufi masters.

Nevertheless, even though Schopenhauer's vision of "God as Will" (I'm sure he wouldn't allow this coupling) seems stark, and he's commonly referred to as a pessimist (and generally he was), he also said towards the end of his life:

"Every evening we are poorer by a day. We would perhaps grow frantic at the sight of this ebbing away of our short span of time were we not secretly conscious in the profoundest depths of our being that we share in the inexhaustible well of eternity, out of which we can forever draw new life and new time." (Essays and Aphorisms, Penguin Classics, 2004: 52)

I'm sorry I have no Greek characters! 'to on' is untranslateable, but more or less sums up what you said in the previous post, XSH. Literally it means 'that which is'.

I'm sorry I have no Greek characters! 'to on' is untranslateable, but more or less sums up what you said in the previous post, XSH. Literally it means 'that which is'.

Thank you. wai2.gif

All I know is, that to me, without God, none of this makes sense, so I believe in God, but that does not mean that there is one.

169.jpg

Why does 'it' have to make sense? It's a just a rewording of 'there has to be a reason' when it cannot be shown that there does have to be a reason.

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