Dar-es-Salaam? I thought that was a city in Tanzania (so does Google).

SD is presumably talking about what is more usually referred to as Dar al Islam, or occasionally as Dar as-Salam, rather than the Tanzanian city of Dar es Salaam.

Correct, sorry for any confusion.

Come on SD, you need to sharpen up your details re matters of an East African nature. Confusing tribes in Kenya and their respective religions one moment and now Tanzanian ports for Islamic homelands, whatever next?!

UG, you keep talking about the Palestinians being offered their own country.

As Steely Dan points out, Jordan - which is much bigger - was actually the Palestinian state, but the partition plan that they turned down in 1947 would have also given them a second state with even more territory that was still equal to what the Jews were offered in the smaller area. Instead, they declared war. I'm sorry, but you can not start the hostilites, fight for 60 years and then demand the same territory that you turned down in the first place.

UG, you keep talking about the Palestinians being offered their own country. On another thread you posted the map of what they were offered... a non-viable patchwork of the 'horse designed by a committee' type. Yes, they've been offered peace; "we'll take what we want, and you can have the bits left over". Of course they hate the Jews... and this, I think, is the direct consequence of the 1948 'settlement', aided and abetted by all the other Arab states.

This why I think the situation is an impasse, and the only way forward is to discard all the accumulated baggage and rethink the whole situation, without depriving the Jews of their state (that is a given). Impossible? Then look forward to a continuation of the current mess.

Thank you, UG, for putting the map in. But you didn't quote my whole post, so I've repeated it. I described the proposed division of territory as of the 'horse designed by a committee' type. Look at the map, and you'll see why.

What I had apparently forgotten is that Jerusalem was in the Arab part.... or rather, one of the three Arab parts. Surely this would never have been acceptable to the Jews? Or was Jerusalem to be a Jewish (or even international) enclave surrounded by Arab territory? The mind boggles at how that ever could have been considered viable by anyone.

Maybe, but the Jewish territory was just as screwy as the Arab territory, so more than fair (especially if one considers that with Jordan, the Palestinian Arabs were offered 85% of the original territory of what the British called Palestine and they went to war anyway).

Yes, the 1947 UN Partition Plan recommended "the creation of a special international regime in the City of Jerusalem, constituting it as a corpus separatum under the administration of the UN"., but Jews had far outnumbered Arabs in Jeruslalem for at least 100 years before Israel declared independence.

Yes, I agree, the Jewish territory was just as screwy as the Arab territory.

UG, you are going over the old ground (again and again). As I've said above, I do not think there is any solution unless the whole baggage of the past sixty years can be scrapped. I am not on either side; I think there are many rights and wrongs on each side... and so long as we bear grudges and make accusations, we will get nowhere.

After all, this forum is called Outside the Box.

Dar-es-Salaam? I thought that was a city in Tanzania (so does Google).

SD is presumably talking about what is more usually referred to as Dar al Islam, or occasionally as Dar as-Salam, rather than the Tanzanian city of Dar es Salaam.

Correct, sorry for any confusion.

Come on SD, you need to sharpen up your details re matters of an East African nature. Confusing tribes in Kenya and their respective religions one moment and now Tanzanian ports for Islamic homelands, whatever next?!

I trust you will stay tuned to find out. Coming to think of it Dar al Islam is the term for lands under Islamic control, whereas Dar al Harb is the Islamic term for lands not under Islamic rule, also interestingly known as house of war. The point being that if in 1947 The Arab nations rejection of the recognition of Israel put the lands so recognized as belonging to Dar al Harb. This point was emphasized in 1967 when due to another military defeat yet more lands became Dar al Harb.

The point I'm trying to make is that even if a Palestinian leader agreed a return to the 1967 borders in return for recognizing Israel he would not be speaking for any of the houses of Islamic jurisprudence, which would need to issue a fatwa affirming such a treaty, or else Israel would still be regarded as Dar al Harb by Islamic scholars. Of course individual Muslim states may make peace with Israel, as Egypt and Turkey did, but the agreements were in effect secular and meaningless through the eyes of Islam.

I therefore conclude that Ban Ki Moon's argument is a complete non-sequitur and this fact is easy to see if you look at what sundry Islamic clerics are saying as oppose to those playing at diplomacy but in reality engaging in war by other means.

UG, you keep talking about the Palestinians being offered their own country.

As Steely Dan points out, Jordan - which is much bigger - was actually the Palestinian state, but the partition plan that they turned down in 1947 would have also given them a second state with even more territory that was still equal to what the Jews were offered in the smaller area. Instead, they declared war. I'm sorry, but you can not start the hostilites, fight for 60 years and then demand the same territory that you turned down in the first place.

Intrigued about the concept of Trans-Jordan/Jordan being "the Palestinian state", can you lay out some facts to support this claim? As far as I was aware Transjordan was a semi-autonomous British protectorate ruled by TE Lawrence's friend King Abdullah of the Hashemite/Hejaz family. It was never part of the British Mandate of Palestine.

Jordan did in fact annex the West Bank in 1950, giving Jordanian citizenship to all West Bank residents, but East of the river?

the Qr'an mentions neither "Dar al-Islam" nor "Dal al-Harb" nor the existence or application of any "Fatwas". these definitions were "invented" and "created" by clowns to exert power over mental peasants.

the same principle is applied in Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism and a variety of other "faiths". the only difference is that the clowns speak different languages, wear different attires and read from different holy books.

source: http://www.naams-wisdomandlogic.org

As far as I was aware Transjordan was a semi-autonomous British protectorate ruled by TE Lawrence's friend King Abdullah of the Hashemite/Hejaz family. It was never part of the British Mandate of Palestine.

You are partially right, but Transjordan was officially part of the British Mandate. In 1923, the British divided the "Palestine" portion of the Ottoman Empire into two administrative districts. Jews would be permitted only west of the Jordan river and the rest was meant to be an Arab state. However, encouraged by growing Arab nationalism throughout the Middle East, the Arabs of the remaining territory west of the Jordan River launched never-ending attacks on the Jewish Palestinians in an effort to drive them out. This is why the Jews fought back and the rest is history.

"The truth is that Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan,"

- King Hussein of Jordan

You say Jordan is much bigger, UG. Yes, true, but 90% of Jordan is desert, while only 60% of Israel is. It makes a difference. Unfortunately I can't find figures for all the discrete parts of Greater Palestine (can I call it that?).

There is a reason for that. The Jews made the desert bloom. The precentage was probably very similar before they started working the land. Israeli agriculture has largely halted erosion and restored desertified lands of the Negev Desert

There is a reason for that. The Jews made the desert bloom. The precentage was probably very similar before they started working the land. Israeli agriculture has largely halted erosion and restored desertified lands of the Negev Desert

I thought Thais would have little knowledge of Israel, but my wife tells me how many agricultural techniques were devised by the first Zionist settlers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture_in_Israel

3.7% Of Israelis work in agriculture and they are 95% self sufficient in food production, whereas Egypt imports 40% of it's food.

There is a reason for that. The Jews made the desert bloom. The precentage was probably very similar before they started working the land. Israeli agriculture has largely halted erosion and restored desertified lands of the Negev Desert

I thought Thais would have little knowledge of Israel, but my wife tells me how many agricultural techniques were devised by the first Zionist settlers.

http://en.wikipedia....lture_in_Israel

3.7% Of Israelis work in agriculture and they are 95% self sufficient in food production, whereas Egypt imports 40% of it's food.

isn't that a valid reason for Israel to occupy Egypt or at least the fertile part of it? there's also ample evidence that the Jewish forefathers were once permanent residents of Egypt which should be an additional and underlying reason to go ahead... i think

joke aside! arable land in Egypt (population per hectare) is approximately the same like Israel. and comparing a backward country and its mostly illiterate Fellaghas who use ancient agricultural methods without access to finance with Israel's high-tech knowledge and application is just unfair.

it reminds me when years ago a Jewish friend of mine asked me

-"why is Saudi Arabia technically so backward that they have to import each and every technical product?"

and my answer was

"just wait when the descendants of those Saudis, who were dispersed by the Roman Empire two milleniae ago all over the world, come back with the wealth of knowledge they accumulated in dozens of countries and apply this knowledge in their homeland."

There is a reason for that. The Jews made the desert bloom. The precentage was probably very similar before they started working the land. Israeli agriculture has largely halted erosion and restored desertified lands of the Negev Desert

I thought Thais would have little knowledge of Israel, but my wife tells me how many agricultural techniques were devised by the first Zionist settlers.

http://en.wikipedia....lture_in_Israel

3.7% Of Israelis work in agriculture and they are 95% self sufficient in food production, whereas Egypt imports 40% of it's food.

isn't that a valid reason for Israel to occupy Egypt or at least the fertile part of it? there's also ample evidence that the Jewish forefathers were once permanent residents of Egypt which should be an additional and underlying reason to go ahead... i think

joke aside! arable land in Egypt (population per hectare) is approximately the same like Israel. and comparing a backward country and its mostly illiterate Fellaghas who use ancient agricultural methods without access to finance with Israel's high-tech knowledge and application is just unfair.

it reminds me when years ago a Jewish friend of mine asked me

-"why is Saudi Arabia technically so backward that they have to import each and every technical product?"

and my answer was

"just wait when the descendants of those Saudis, who were dispersed by the Roman Empire two milleniae ago all over the world, come back with the wealth of knowledge they accumulated in dozens of countries and apply this knowledge in their homeland."

Not sure what you're on about. Jews are not descendants of Saudis.

There is a reason for that. The Jews made the desert bloom. The precentage was probably very similar before they started working the land. Israeli agriculture has largely halted erosion and restored desertified lands of the Negev Desert

I thought Thais would have little knowledge of Israel, but my wife tells me how many agricultural techniques were devised by the first Zionist settlers.

http://en.wikipedia....lture_in_Israel

3.7% Of Israelis work in agriculture and they are 95% self sufficient in food production, whereas Egypt imports 40% of it's food.

isn't that a valid reason for Israel to occupy Egypt or at least the fertile part of it? there's also ample evidence that the Jewish forefathers were once permanent residents of Egypt which should be an additional and underlying reason to go ahead... i think

joke aside! arable land in Egypt (population per hectare) is approximately the same like Israel. and comparing a backward country and its mostly illiterate Fellaghas who use ancient agricultural methods without access to finance with Israel's high-tech knowledge and application is just unfair.

it reminds me when years ago a Jewish friend of mine asked me

-"why is Saudi Arabia technically so backward that they have to import each and every technical product?"

and my answer was

"just wait when the descendants of those Saudis, who were dispersed by the Roman Empire two milleniae ago all over the world, come back with the wealth of knowledge they accumulated in dozens of countries and apply this knowledge in their homeland."

Indeed, if the Egyptians could be convinced aliens had landed and be governed by Israelis wearing space suits they would for sure be better off, there is a precedent too as the ancient Egyptians got Jewish builders in to construct the pyramids. The agriculture issue demonstrates the difference between faith and fatalism. The Zionist settlers first arriving home must have been horrified to find the title deed description of a land of milk and honey turned out to be part dessert part mosquito infested swamp. At this point they could have blamed the locals for destroying their birth right and waited for U.N food shipments to arrive, but instead faith, hard work and innovation made the dessert bloom.

To be fair you do have a point, the Jewish settlers were a product of modern Judeo-Christian civilization and all it's knowledge and scientific methods. Coming to think of it this is another reason why coexistence in the middle east is so problematic; not only is there a religious divide, but also one of civilizations, a divide of science and reason versus superstition and backwardness. To return to the O.T, the only hope for peace is for the Palestinians to become civilized and put the welfare of their children above their hatred of their neighbors.

A large percentage of Jewish immigration into Israel was from Middle eastern, NOT western lands.

There is a reason for that. The Jews made the desert bloom. The precentage was probably very similar before they started working the land. Israeli agriculture has largely halted erosion and restored desertified lands of the Negev Desert

I thought Thais would have little knowledge of Israel, but my wife tells me how many agricultural techniques were devised by the first Zionist settlers.

http://en.wikipedia....lture_in_Israel

3.7% Of Israelis work in agriculture and they are 95% self sufficient in food production, whereas Egypt imports 40% of it's food.

isn't that a valid reason for Israel to occupy Egypt or at least the fertile part of it? there's also ample evidence that the Jewish forefathers were once permanent residents of Egypt which should be an additional and underlying reason to go ahead... i think

joke aside! arable land in Egypt (population per hectare) is approximately the same like Israel. and comparing a backward country and its mostly illiterate Fellaghas who use ancient agricultural methods without access to finance with Israel's high-tech knowledge and application is just unfair.

it reminds me when years ago a Jewish friend of mine asked me

-"why is Saudi Arabia technically so backward that they have to import each and every technical product?"

and my answer was

"just wait when the descendants of those Saudis, who were dispersed by the Roman Empire two milleniae ago all over the world, come back with the wealth of knowledge they accumulated in dozens of countries and apply this knowledge in their homeland."

Indeed, if the Egyptians could be convinced aliens had landed and be governed by Israelis wearing space suits they would for sure be better off, there is a precedent too as the ancient Egyptians got Jewish builders in to construct the pyramids. The agriculture issue demonstrates the difference between faith and fatalism. The Zionist settlers first arriving home must have been horrified to find the title deed description of a land of milk and honey turned out to be part dessert part mosquito infested swamp. At this point they could have blamed the locals for destroying their birth right and waited for U.N food shipments to arrive, but instead faith, hard work and innovation made the dessert bloom.

To be fair you do have a point, the Jewish settlers were a product of modern Judeo-Christian civilization and all it's knowledge and scientific methods. Coming to think of it this is another reason why coexistence in the middle east is so problematic; not only is there a religious divide, but also one of civilizations, a divide of science and reason versus superstition and backwardness. To return to the O.T, the only hope for peace is for the Palestinians to become civilized and put the welfare of their children above their hatred of their neighbors.

And I thought confusing a Tanzanian port city with Muslim home turf was bad enough!

Please post any credible evidence crediting the construction of the pyramids by Jewish workers or indeed slaves, or indeed Hebrews, Semites or Israelites. Neither the Torah nor Herodotus mention any such link so I wait with bated breath!

Wonderful sweeping generalizations re Jewish people and Palestinians. You highlight the struggle between science and reason versus superstition and backwardness, but while the coffee shops of Tel Aviv positively heave with amazing examples of the former, where would you place the ever increasing population of Hasidim? 50% unemployed, draft dodging and playing the long term demographic game shrewdly.

Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Sikh, Hindu or Buddhist people come in every shape, size and variety; crude, simplistic pigeonholing does nobody bar agenda-driven extremists any favours.

PS desserts often contain milk and honey, deserts rarely do. Schoolboy (primary school at that) error.....

There is a reason for that. The Jews made the desert bloom. The precentage was probably very similar before they started working the land. Israeli agriculture has largely halted erosion and restored desertified lands of the Negev Desert

I thought Thais would have little knowledge of Israel, but my wife tells me how many agricultural techniques were devised by the first Zionist settlers.

http://en.wikipedia....lture_in_Israel

3.7% Of Israelis work in agriculture and they are 95% self sufficient in food production, whereas Egypt imports 40% of it's food.

isn't that a valid reason for Israel to occupy Egypt or at least the fertile part of it? there's also ample evidence that the Jewish forefathers were once permanent residents of Egypt which should be an additional and underlying reason to go ahead... i think

joke aside! arable land in Egypt (population per hectare) is approximately the same like Israel. and comparing a backward country and its mostly illiterate Fellaghas who use ancient agricultural methods without access to finance with Israel's high-tech knowledge and application is just unfair.

it reminds me when years ago a Jewish friend of mine asked me

-"why is Saudi Arabia technically so backward that they have to import each and every technical product?"

and my answer was

"just wait when the descendants of those Saudis, who were dispersed by the Roman Empire two milleniae ago all over the world, come back with the wealth of knowledge they accumulated in dozens of countries and apply this knowledge in their homeland."

Not sure what you're on about. Jews are not descendants of Saudis.

JT

I wouldn't take any of the above post too seriously...

The poster seems to believe that Holland is not part of "the west" contrary to all obvious geographical and geopolitical realities.....So the Jewish people being Saudi....

There is a reason for that. The Jews made the desert bloom. The precentage was probably very similar before they started working the land. Israeli agriculture has largely halted erosion and restored desertified lands of the Negev Desert

I thought Thais would have little knowledge of Israel, but my wife tells me how many agricultural techniques were devised by the first Zionist settlers.

http://en.wikipedia....lture_in_Israel

3.7% Of Israelis work in agriculture and they are 95% self sufficient in food production, whereas Egypt imports 40% of it's food.

isn't that a valid reason for Israel to occupy Egypt or at least the fertile part of it? there's also ample evidence that the Jewish forefathers were once permanent residents of Egypt which should be an additional and underlying reason to go ahead... i think

joke aside! arable land in Egypt (population per hectare) is approximately the same like Israel. and comparing a backward country and its mostly illiterate Fellaghas who use ancient agricultural methods without access to finance with Israel's high-tech knowledge and application is just unfair.

it reminds me when years ago a Jewish friend of mine asked me

-"why is Saudi Arabia technically so backward that they have to import each and every technical product?"

and my answer was

"just wait when the descendants of those Saudis, who were dispersed by the Roman Empire two milleniae ago all over the world, come back with the wealth of knowledge they accumulated in dozens of countries and apply this knowledge in their homeland."

Not sure what you're on about. Jews are not descendants of Saudis.

it seems detecting irony is not your strong side JT.

A large percentage of Jewish immigration into Israel was from Middle eastern, NOT western lands.

yeah right! most of the scientists hailed from godforsaken parts of Yemen and the Maghreb states where they acquired their wealth of knowledge. those who immigrated from western countries and the areas of the former Soviet Union were just peasants.

i suggest you update your knowledge on Israel

A large percentage of Jewish immigration into Israel was from Middle eastern, NOT western lands.

yeah right! most of the scientists hailed from godforsaken parts of Yemen and the Maghreb states where they acquired their wealth of knowledge. those who immigrated from western countries and the areas of the former Soviet Union were just peasants.

i suggest you update your knowledge on Israel

Wasn't it the Ethiopians that gave them the knowledge for The Bomb?

There is a reason for that. The Jews made the desert bloom. The precentage was probably very similar before they started working the land. Israeli agriculture has largely halted erosion and restored desertified lands of the Negev Desert

to make the desert bloom one needs water. where did this water come from?

And I thought confusing a Tanzanian port city with Muslim home turf was bad enough!

Please post any credible evidence crediting the construction of the pyramids by Jewish workers or indeed slaves, or indeed Hebrews, Semites or Israelites. Neither the Torah nor Herodotus mention any such link so I wait with bated breath!

Wonderful sweeping generalizations re Jewish people and Palestinians. You highlight the struggle between science and reason versus superstition and backwardness, but while the coffee shops of Tel Aviv positively heave with amazing examples of the former, where would you place the ever increasing population of Hasidim? 50% unemployed, draft dodging and playing the long term demographic game shrewdly.

Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Sikh, Hindu or Buddhist people come in every shape, size and variety; crude, simplistic pigeonholing does nobody bar agenda-driven extremists any favours.

PS desserts often contain milk and honey, deserts rarely do. Schoolboy (primary school at that) error.....

Regarding the building of the pyramids, I was jerking your chain, just in case you didn't realize. Still, those polytheists built an awesome civilization around the Nile flood plain, alas since they embraced their current brand of monotheism it's been down hill and fast, now some even want to erase traces of their once glorious past as it offends their self-destructive beliefs.

As for 'pigeonholing' as you put it, I prefer to see it as pattern recognition when a pattern of behaviour nearly always holds true. Granted there are some Jews who would evidently rather live as dhimmis in a medieval culture, however these are the exception and hopefully the Israeli government will finally get their act together in making military service compulsory and making benefits contingent on being willing to work, then their birth rates should rapidly fall to those of people living with modern day realities. Incidentally it's a bit rich you playing the demographics card here yet screaming Islamophobia when the same thing is mentioned relating to Muslim birth rates in Europe.

Anyway, the Hasidim aside a large proportion of Jewish settlers are as steeped in the history of Judeo-Christian Europe as you or I and so their values could not be more different from those of middle eastern Arabs.

Finally returning to topic. The best thing for the peace process would be imho to recognize there never was a genuine peace process. The Arab league objections to the state of Israel's formation are the same now as they were in 1948, so returning to 1967 borders does not address the original Arab objections. At least Hamas, the Salafists and sundry prominent Imams are up front about this, unlike those who project their own western values and aspirations on those now called Palestinians. There is no solution based only on land alone as was demonstrated by the reaction to Israel unilaterally handing back Gaza. When Palestinian TV and their religious leaders stop spreading hatred and poisoning the minds of their people there may be a chance, but the damage already done will take generations to undo.

When Palestinian TV and their religious leaders stop spreading hatred and poisoning the minds of their people there may be a chance...

right you are!

but you should add their counterpart Avigdor Lieberman and a bunch of others who's demands are similar to those of Hamas except it's "Palestinians out of Eretz Yisrael Shelanu!"

When Palestinian TV and their religious leaders stop spreading hatred and poisoning the minds of their people there may be a chance...

right you are!

but you should add their counterpart Avigdor Lieberman and a bunch of others who's demands are similar to those of Hamas except it's "Palestinians out of Eretz Yisrael Shelanu!"

I'll agree with what I presume is your general point, not to have leaders promoting ethnic cleansing, nor basing a claim of ownership by virtue of religious right. As for Avigdor Liebernan, he was the guy chucked out of the Israeli cabinet in 2004 by that well known dove Ariel Sharon due to his opposition to the Gaza disengagement. History tells us he was dead right on that count seeing as Israel got no thanks or recognition for doing so. I guess he has Hamas to thank for his star rising again in Israeli politics.

Truth to power!

When Palestinian TV and their religious leaders stop spreading hatred and poisoning the minds of their people there may be a chance...

right you are!

but you should add their counterpart Avigdor Lieberman and a bunch of others who's demands are similar to those of Hamas except it's "Palestinians out of Eretz Yisrael Shelanu!"

I'll agree with what I presume is your general point, not to have leaders promoting ethnic cleansing, nor basing a claim of ownership by virtue of religious right. As for Avigdor Liebernan, he was the guy chucked out of the Israeli cabinet in 2004 by that well known dove Ariel Sharon due to his opposition to the Gaza disengagement. History tells us he was dead right on that count seeing as Israel got no thanks or recognition for doing so. I guess he has Hamas to thank for his star rising again in Israeli politics.

i think you will agree that being right once or twice does not justify being wrong many times. and yes it's Hamas who are indirectly backing up the Liebermans.

yesterday i watched on the arabic channel of al-Jazeera an interview with Khaled Mashal. although my Arabic has become a bit rusty i kept on shaking my head listening to the ridiculous garbage he presented without once answering a question of the interviewer.

Evidently I was wrong, it is Israeli houses which make peace impossible - here is a great piece of irony, so good I laughed out loud in places.

http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/2012/12/the-deadly-israeli-house.html

There are few weapons as deadly as the Israeli house. When its bricks and mortar are combined together, the house, whether it is one of those modest one story hilltop affairs or a five floor apartment building complete with hot and cold running water, becomes far more dangerous than anything green and glowing that comes out of the Iranian centrifuges.