U S Gun Lobby Issues Point-Blank 'no' To Gun Control

[JDGRUEN]

Another factor: Members of the U;S. House of Representatives and Senators (Senate) like to be re-elected to office. They know if they vote for some strict gun control bill that they run a strong chance of NOT being relected next time... The Members of the House have to run for re-election every two years. The House of Representatives has a majority of Republican ... Guess what is Not going to happen in the House...

Yes and that is why the PEOPLE must rise if they really want change and DEMAND change. Not with guns. Not with the NRA. With votes. Many people thought Obama was toast for a second term but the people decided differently. A hard road to control guns? Yes. Impossible? If so, what kind of democracy is that?

The U.S. is a Repbulic not a Democracy ... and besides if you are talking about a majority vote - then the gun advocates are in the majority - sounds democratic to me...

[F430murci]

Of course, prudent thing would be security plus gun control. These whack jobs are trying hard to make things such a mess that there is no going back and they also fully understand a small but very vocal percentage of population can be manipulated with fear and bs rhetoric most intelligent forward thinking individuals can only shake their heads in amazement at ala Bush axis of evil et al speeches for many years.

Haha, these people probably think Amish mafia is unscripted and Bigfoot is an ancient alien. American greed and patriotic paranoia at it's finest.

"Small but vocal percentage" Really Now! Try 100 to 150 MILLION Gun owners - who own somewhere between 200 to 300 Million guns ... No - Not Small - but yes - very vocal ... At nearly 1/2 the total American population and over 1/2 of the American Adult population say - Guns will stay - no limits on the 2nd. Amendment...

I own shot gun and brother owns pistols due to job. Both of us believe gun control is needed and assault weapons should be off the street so equating number if gun owner to radical views espoused by the NRA is a naive view.

I think the 1994 assault weapon ban was a good law that unfortunately lapsed in 2004 during Bush's axis of evil rants.

[F430murci]

Another factor: Members of the U;S. House of Representatives and Senators (Senate) like to be re-elected to office. They know if they vote for some strict gun control bill that they run a strong chance of NOT being relected next time... The Members of the House have to run for re-election every two years. The House of Representatives has a majority of Republican ... Guess what is Not going to happen in the House...

Yes and that is why the PEOPLE must rise if they really want change and DEMAND change. Not with guns. Not with the NRA. With votes. Many people thought Obama was toast for a second term but the people decided differently. A hard road to control guns? Yes. Impossible? If so, what kind of democracy is that?

The U.S. is a Repbulic not a Democracy ... and besides if you are talking about a majority vote - then the gun advocates are in the majority - sounds democratic to me...

No, most people believe in some sort of gun control and a string majority believe in banning assault weapons and going back to pre2004 laws so maybe get ya facts a but straighter before during off silly misleading posts.

[gl555]

Of course, prudent thing would be security plus gun control. These whack jobs are trying hard to make things such a mess that there is no going back and they also fully understand a small but very vocal percentage of population can be manipulated with fear and bs rhetoric most intelligent forward thinking individuals can only shake their heads in amazement at ala Bush axis of evil et al speeches for many years.

Haha, these people probably think Amish mafia is unscripted and Bigfoot is an ancient alien. American greed and patriotic paranoia at it's finest.

"Small but vocal percentage" Really Now! Try 100 to 150 MILLION Gun owners - who own somewhere between 200 to 300 Million guns ... No - Not Small - but yes - very vocal ... At nearly 1/2 the total American population and over 1/2 of the American Adult population say - Guns will stay - no limits on the 2nd. Amendment...

I own shot gun and brother owns pistols due to job. Both of us believe gun control is needed and assault weapons should be off the street so equating number if gun owner to radical views espoused by the NRA is a naive view.

I think the 1994 assault weapon ban was a good law that unfortunately lapsed in 2004 during Bush's axis of evil rants.

And from 1994-2004, how many school attacks were there? Did the assault weapon ban prevent Columbine?

All these half measures, half gun control laws don't work

[F430murci]

Another factor: Members of the U;S. House of Representatives and Senators (Senate) like to be re-elected to office. They know if they vote for some strict gun control bill that they run a strong chance of NOT being relected next time... The Members of the House have to run for re-election every two years. The House of Representatives has a majority of Republican ... Guess what is Not going to happen in the House...

Maybe it's time politicians' start placing safety of citizens above the politicians' own economic needs. With NRA, it's definitely a mentality of corporate greed over country need. Politicians have no excuse and people are starting to get it. We are really dealing with a very small but vocal percentage that fall into the radical whack category. Kind if like the whacked pro lifers that protest and kill abortion doctors. Small, but vocal group that probably gets 100% of their whacky members turning out at the polls. Unfortunately, rationale people with more moderate views tend to be less likely to vote so our policy gets dictated by the whackadoodles.

[F430murci]

Of course, prudent thing would be security plus gun control. These whack jobs are trying hard to make things such a mess that there is no going back and they also fully understand a small but very vocal percentage of population can be manipulated with fear and bs rhetoric most intelligent forward thinking individuals can only shake their heads in amazement at ala Bush axis of evil et al speeches for many years.

Haha, these people probably think Amish mafia is unscripted and Bigfoot is an ancient alien. American greed and patriotic paranoia at it's finest.

"Small but vocal percentage" Really Now! Try 100 to 150 MILLION Gun owners - who own somewhere between 200 to 300 Million guns ... No - Not Small - but yes - very vocal ... At nearly 1/2 the total American population and over 1/2 of the American Adult population say - Guns will stay - no limits on the 2nd. Amendment...

I own shot gun and brother owns pistols due to job. Both of us believe gun control is needed and assault weapons should be off the street so equating number if gun owner to radical views espoused by the NRA is a naive view.

I think the 1994 assault weapon ban was a good law that unfortunately lapsed in 2004 during Bush's axis of evil rants.

And from 1994-2004, how many school attacks were there? Did the assault weapon ban prevent Columbine?

All these half measures, half gun control laws don't work

No, but does that mean we don't try and that we do not exercise some rational intelligent thought and impliment measures to make this country safer.

Wasn't Columbine just gun show purchases so just more gun show loop hole crap where basically anyway, felon it not, can buy assault rifles at now. Good idea. No great ideas.

http://extras.denverpost.com/news/shot0427a.htm

Edited December 24, 2012 by F430murci

[Jingthing]

If Sandy Hook doesn't motivate the majority of Americans to resist the NRA, what will? I see evidence this time it's different. Time will tell.

[Mrjlh]

Wasn't it Austrialia just a few years ago that banned guns and had every one turn them in? What ever happened to that? How well did that work?

[gl555]

No, but dies that mean we don't try and that we do not exercise some rational intelligent though and measures to make this country safer.

Wasn't Columbine gun show purchasers so just more gun show loop hole crap where basically anyway, felon it not, can buy assault rifles at now. Good idea. No great ideas.

http://extras.denver...s/shot0427a.htm

Precisely! There will always be some loop hole which will allow a criminal to get a gun. Obama and congress, after this tragedy will probably pass some half assed gun control bill which won't work. And then we just have to wait for the next gun massacre.

Gun control has always made it more difficult from citizens to get guns while criminals and crazies don't really care because they don't follow the law anyway. I'm not one of those 2nd Amendment types but I firmly believe if criminals have access to 300 million guns out there illegally, then law abiding citizens should be to easily get a gun legally.

[Jingthing]

Wasn't it Austrialia just a few years ago that banned guns and had every one turn them in? What ever happened to that? How well did that work?

You've simplified their policy I think but it was a national program and the results have been excellent in preventing mass gun murders.

[submaniac]

Politicians have no excuse and people are starting to get it. We are really dealing with a very small but vocal percentage that fall into the radical whack category. Kind if like the whacked pro lifers that protest and kill abortion doctors. Small, but vocal group that probably gets 100% of their whacky members turning out at the polls.

It's not a small vocal minority. it's about half the U.S. population that owns at least one gun. It's not about the NRA controlling the politicians. It is the politicians realizing that the people who vote them into office do not want stricter laws.

Take a look at the various Thaivisa threads on the subject and you'll see what I am talking about. It's not just one or two of us. There's actually a large number of people defending the second amendment. And this is on an expatriate foreign country website, where the vast majority of members are not from the United States. When you get to U.S. soil you start realizing how many people are vehement for defending the 2nd Amendment.

[gl555]

Wasn't it Austrialia just a few years ago that banned guns and had every one turn them in? What ever happened to that? How well did that work?

You've simplified their policy I think but it was a national program and the results have been excellent in preventing mass gun murders.

Try the same program when there are 300 million guns to ban. I doubt it will be as successful.

[F430murci]

No, but dies that mean we don't try and that we do not exercise some rational intelligent though and measures to make this country safer.

Wasn't Columbine gun show purchasers so just more gun show loop hole crap where basically anyway, felon it not, can buy assault rifles at now. Good idea. No great ideas.

http://extras.denver...s/shot0427a.htm

Precisely! There will always be some loop hole which will allow a criminal to get a gun. Obama and congress, after this tragedy will probably pass some half assed gun control bill which won't work. And then we just have to wait for the next gun massacre.

Gun control has always made it more difficult from citizens to get guns while criminals and crazies don't really care because they don't follow the law anyway. I'm not one of those 2nd Amendment types but I firmly believe if criminals have access to 300 million guns out there illegally, then law abiding citizens should be to easily get a gun legally.

Uhm, how is that working out? Working out really well isn't it. Nuff said.

NRA had it's chance to saturate market with weapons during last 8 years and it has done zero good so time for a change.

The loopholes can and will get closed and hopefully we will start to see vigorous prosecution of illegal sales of firearms which has largely gone unprosecuted.

Some cannot or refuse to see the forest for the trees. A crafty lawyer needs to angle back sone if the legal responsibility back on NRA and gun mfgs. File in a liberal jurisdiction, survive summary judgment and chance if a huge verdict is there. I say put money where mouth is.

Edited December 24, 2012 by F430murci

[gl555]

No, but dies that mean we don't try and that we do not exercise some rational intelligent though and measures to make this country safer.

Wasn't Columbine gun show purchasers so just more gun show loop hole crap where basically anyway, felon it not, can buy assault rifles at now. Good idea. No great ideas.

http://extras.denver...s/shot0427a.htm

Precisely! There will always be some loop hole which will allow a criminal to get a gun. Obama and congress, after this tragedy will probably pass some half assed gun control bill which won't work. And then we just have to wait for the next gun massacre.

Gun control has always made it more difficult from citizens to get guns while criminals and crazies don't really care because they don't follow the law anyway. I'm not one of those 2nd Amendment types but I firmly believe if criminals have access to 300 million guns out there illegally, then law abiding citizens should be to easily get a gun legally.

Uhm, how is that working out? Working out teally well isn't it. Nuff said.

NRA had it's chance to saturate market with weapons during last 8 years and it has done zero good so time for a change.

The loopholes can and will get closed and hopefully we will start to see vigorous prosecution of illegal sales of firearms which has largely gone unpublished.

Some cannot or refuse to see the forest for the trees. A crafty lawyer needs to angle back sone if the legal responsibility back on NRA and gun mfgs. File in a liberal jurisdiction, survive summary judgment and chance if a huge verdict is there. I say put money where mouth is.

I have posted in another thread that there have been a whole lot of potential gun massacres that was stopped by a citizen who used his legal gun to stop the would be mass murderer. So yes, having law abiding citizens with guns is working out pretty good. I have already said, if you can ban all 300 million guns then you don't need citizens with guns also. But since you can't then the citizens should be able to possess one to protect themselves.

Good luck with closing the loopholes. Criminals and crazies will always be able to find a gun to hurt somebody if they really want to. 300 million guns, good luck stopping them from getting one.

And stop blaming the NRA for everything. Immediately after the massacre, a poll that 42% of Americans were still against gun control. That's almost half of the population. I doubt everyone of them is a 2nd Amendment nut.

Edited December 24, 2012 by gl555

[Jingthing]

This isn't rocket science. This is gun science. It is known if you can reduce the number of automatic weapons in civilian populations you reduce to rate of MASS murders. Again, nobody is talking about changing the 2nd amendment. Talking about perfectly legal, perfectly constitutional LIMITS.

[beechguy]

This isn't rocket science. This is gun science. It is known if you can reduce the number of automatic weapons in civilian populations you reduce to rate of MASS murders. Again, nobody is talking about changing the 2nd amendment. Talking about perfectly legal, perfectly constitutional LIMITS.

In recent hisory, when has an automatic weapon been used in a mass murder in the U.S.?

[simple1]

Wasn't it Austrialia just a few years ago that banned guns and had every one turn them in? What ever happened to that? How well did that work?

You've simplified their policy I think but it was a national program and the results have been excellent in preventing mass gun murders.

Australia now has 0.1 per 100,000 of population for firearm homicide, whereas USA is 3% per 100k. However, Australia did not have the equivalent of the US Second Amendment. Details of the legislation at http://en.wikipedia....cs_in_Australia

Edited December 24, 2012 by simple1

[beechguy]

Wasn't it Austrialia just a few years ago that banned guns and had every one turn them in? What ever happened to that? How well did that work?

You've simplified their policy I think but it was a national program and the results have been excellent in preventing mass gun murders.

Yes, but the laws didn't stop a guy from raiding a ship's armory and stealing 12 semi-automatic handguns and 2 shotguns. They have been recovered, but I doubt they were heading down to the office to be registered.

You guys keep coming up with ideas, but none of it has anything to do with reality and the real criminals. I doubt increasing registration requirements at Wal-Mart is going to accomplish much, since that is not where most criminals are getting their weapons.

Edited December 24, 2012 by beechguy

[gl555]

The gun ownership in Switzerland is 45.7 per 100 residents (this is not inclusive of militia issued assault rifles every militia member is issued) compared to America 88.8 per 100.

The annual rate of homicide by guns per 100,000 population is 0.52 in Switzerland compared to Americas 3%.

There obviously is something wrong with America and you can't blame guns entirely for it. Look at the Swiss.

[F430murci]

No, but dies that mean we don't try and that we do not exercise some rational intelligent though and measures to make this country safer.

Wasn't Columbine gun show purchasers so just more gun show loop hole crap where basically anyway, felon it not, can buy assault rifles at now. Good idea. No great ideas.

http://extras.denver...s/shot0427a.htm

Precisely! There will always be some loop hole which will allow a criminal to get a gun. Obama and congress, after this tragedy will probably pass some half assed gun control bill which won't work. And then we just have to wait for the next gun massacre.

Gun control has always made it more difficult from citizens to get guns while criminals and crazies don't really care because they don't follow the law anyway. I'm not one of those 2nd Amendment types but I firmly believe if criminals have access to 300 million guns out there illegally, then law abiding citizens should be to easily get a gun legally.

Uhm, how is that working out? Working out teally well isn't it. Nuff said.

NRA had it's chance to saturate market with weapons during last 8 years and it has done zero good so time for a change.

The loopholes can and will get closed and hopefully we will start to see vigorous prosecution of illegal sales of firearms which has largely gone unpublished.

Some cannot or refuse to see the forest for the trees. A crafty lawyer needs to angle back sone if the legal responsibility back on NRA and gun mfgs. File in a liberal jurisdiction, survive summary judgment and chance if a huge verdict is there. I say put money where mouth is.

I have posted in another thread that there have been a whole lot of potential gun massacres that was stopped by a citizen who used his legal gun to stop the would be mass murderer. So yes, having law abiding citizens with guns is working out pretty good. I have already said, if you can ban all 300 million guns then you don't need citizens with guns also. But since you can't then the citizens should be able to possess one to protect themselves.

Good luck with closing the loopholes. Criminals and crazies will always be able to find a gun to hurt somebody if they really want to. 300 million guns, good luck stopping them from getting one.

And stop blaming the NRA for everything. Immediately after the massacre, a poll that 42% of Americans were still against gun control. That's almost half of the population. I doubt everyone of them is a 2nd Amendment nut.

I got a bridge to sell you!

Wow, so guidable if you believe this nonsense.

The problem with polls is that 9 out of 10 believe the question related to a complete ban on all weapons so NRA and people like you use this misinformation. The majority when asked if they think assault weapons should be banned was 62 per CBS news poll on 12-18-2012. 62 percent also said high capacity clips should be banned on same date. 78 percent required registration of all guns.

[submaniac]

oh dear, oh dear. Take a deep breath and relax. It's just an internet forum, and anything said here will 99.9% absolute certainty have didley squat effect on the real world.

[F430murci]

This isn't rocket science. This is gun science. It is known if you can reduce the number of automatic weapons in civilian populations you reduce to rate of MASS murders. Again, nobody is talking about changing the 2nd amendment. Talking about perfectly legal, perfectly constitutional LIMITS.

In recent hisory, when has an automatic weapon been used in a mass murder in the U.S.?

Class III and federal registration are pretty step requirements. Class III are also dam_n expensive so most thugs using weapons to commit crimes are not going to be lugging along a 100 pound machine gun that cost $ 35,000.

These class III are few and far between so perhaps ban on post 1986 and very, very strict registration requirements works somewhat.

I think federal registration and class III type requirements are a great idea for all guns.

Truth is, semi mode am an assault rifle is better route for taking lots of people out. Full auto is only good for suppression fire and you squeeze and your pretty much done.

[F430murci]

Love the comments about majority of Americans are not in favor of gun control when 74 of NRA members disagree with NRA's public platform and do believe we need gun reform.

• 74 percent of NRA members and 87 percent of non-NRA gun owners support requiring criminal background checks of anyone purchasing a gun.

• 79 percent of NRA members and 80 percent of non-NRA gun owners support requiring gun retailers to perform background checks on all employees - a measure recently endorsed by the National Shooting Sports Foundation, the trade association for the firearms industry.

• 75 percent of NRA members believe concealed carry permits should only be granted to applicants who have not committed any violent misdemeanors, including assault.

• 74 percent of NRA members believe permits should only be granted to applicants who have completed gun safety training.

• 68 percent of NRA members believe permits should only be granted to applicants who do not have prior arrests for domestic violence.

• 63 percent of NRA members believe permits should only be granted to applicants 21 years of age or older.

• The NRA rank and file also supports barring people on terror watch lists from buying guns (71 percent) and believe the law should require gun owners to alert police to lost and stolen guns (64 percent). The NRA's Washington office strongly opposes both measures.

This article has good poll numbers even if you do nit buy into or believe the views:

http://www.bradblog.com/?p=9786

[DocN]

oh dear, oh dear. Take a deep breath and relax. It's just an internet forum, and anything said here will 99.9% absolute certainty have didley squat effect on the real world.

Yeah, absolutely right!

...and you are making comments here....because....

[beechguy]

This isn't rocket science. This is gun science. It is known if you can reduce the number of automatic weapons in civilian populations you reduce to rate of MASS murders. Again, nobody is talking about changing the 2nd amendment. Talking about perfectly legal, perfectly constitutional LIMITS.

In recent hisory, when has an automatic weapon been used in a mass murder in the U.S.?

Class III and federal registration are pretty step requirements. Class III are also dam_n expensive so most thugs using weapons to commit crimes are not going to be lugging along a 100 pound machine gun that cost $ 35,000.

These class III are few and far between so perhaps ban on post 1986 and very, very strict registration requirements works somewhat.

I think federal registration and class III type requirements are a great idea for all guns.

Truth is, semi mode am an assault rifle is better route for taking lots of people out. Full auto is only good for suppression fire and you squeeze and your pretty much done.

Yes, pretty familiar with the theories, but I have my doubts you'll find a real criminal as a registered owner. My point was Jingthing made a mistake in his comment or just doesn't know what he is talking about.

As far as assault rifles, all rifles killed less than 400 people each of the past 3 years, if people were serious they would be concerned about the handguns that killed 7 or 8 thousand.

[Baloo22]

The National Rifle Association (NRA) is defending the rights of U.S. citizens, specifically the rights enumerated in the Second Amendment of our Bill of Rights. I will not surrender my rights because of the actions of a mentally deranged criminal. For decades now the liberals have proceeded with their efforts to "mainstream" mentally ill persons and, in some cases, prevent the mandatory medication such persons when medical professionals have prescribed such medication as necessary. This, and multiple other liberal policies, have much more to do with these tragic incidents than gun ownership.

You can still have the right to bear arms Baloo22, but why does it need to be the right to bear such powerful and unneccessary weapons?

There's those terms "such powerful and unnecessary weapons". The problem is the people that end up deciding what is too powerful or is "unnecessary" for the law-abiding non-criminal citizen to possess. All too often you end up with the Chicago, New York, and Washington D.C situations where the criminals have the guns and the law-abiding non-criminal citizens are stripped of their right to own "powerful and unnecessary weapons". And the law-abiding non-criminal citizens are then deemed to be criminal for simply asserting their Second Amendment rights.

The truly "powerful and unnecessary weapons", such as fully-automatic weapons, etc, are already either totally banned or severely restricted with very restrictive licensing requirements. The problem is NOT guns in the hands of law-abiding, non-criminal citizens.

[submaniac]

...and you are making comments here....because....

...I like talking about guns.

[Baloo22]

Doesn't the second amendment state something like "while it may be necesary to raise a millitia then a citizen of the USA has to right to keep and bear arms". Would it be fair to say that in modern day America the millitia would be the National Guard in which case only members of that organization would be able to "keep and bear arms" under the constitution and Joe Public would have no rights to keep guns at all.

The Supreme Court of the U.S. has fairly recently ruled that the 2nd. Amendment means that individual Americans have the right to own and bear arms - guns... case closed... the militia argument has been tossed by SCOTUS

There have also been several detailed and scholarly researched reports that included the drafts, notes, and correspondence of the writers of our Bill of Rights as they were being constructed. Also examined were other writings and statements of the writers of our Bill of Rights. It is well settled that they intended those rights, including those in the First and Second Amendment to be individual rights.

Also, back when our Bill of Rights was constructed, the term "militia" did not mean "National Guard" type organizations that could be "federalized" by the stroke of a pen. The common usage was the entire body of adult male citizens. And, yes, those rights have now been extended to adult female citizens and also non-white citizens. The extension of rights to those citizens was the correct action.

[gl555]

I got a bridge to sell you!

Wow, so guidable if you believe this nonsense.

The problem with polls is that 9 out of 10 believe the question related to a complete ban on all weapons so NRA and people like you use this misinformation. The majority when asked if they think assault weapons should be banned was 62 per CBS news poll on 12-18-2012. 62 percent also said high capacity clips should be banned on same date. 78 percent required registration of all guns.

I'm reading the Pew poll which says CONTROL not ban.

[Halion]

Loss of life and especialy young lives can tear into the heart of everyone, however, what escapes my understanding is the knee jerk reaction that comes from such incidents involving firearms.

If a school bus goes over a cliff we don't see a call to ban busses, should an airplane crash we do not see a call to ban flying, How many die daily in auto crashes, however, I have yet to see a lobby to ban cars.

Based on the principle that guns dont kill people, people kill people I think that in countries such as the USA that a ban on guns as a generality is simply not going to happen. They do have significant legislation in place and the more they legislate the more the blackmarket potential grows. Some tollerance with regard to the man in the street being allowed to own a weapon is within the 2nd ammendment rights of a US citizen.

Legislation should in my opinion strictly ban the public procurement of any automatic assault weapons and also automatic hand guns as there is no conceivable justification for such armament in everyday society.

The penalties for possesion of an unregistered or illegal weapon should be increased to be severe enough to act as a significant deterent.

There is no doubt that as a result of the various shooting incidents in the USA and in Europe that the cause was unbalanced mental health of the individual concerned. The availability of weaponry is secondary. Were there no guns they would restort to bombs.

I know that such acts of wanton violence are beyond every day comprehension are are despicable to all, however banning guns in the US is neither the feasable nor the correct answer to this problem.