He is indeed moving very fast by the standards of either culture. You don't mention why he is in the US or how long he has been there. Possibly he is quite lonely and eager to hook up with someone. Just take it slow and be honest with him all the way, discuss what expectations each of you have etc.

Re the money thing, as Bambina said, itis the Thai custom. In fact, even with friends of the same sex, it is very hard to manage to pay when with a Thai. Sort of a hospitality thing. What you can do to avoid feeling like a burden is arrange some outings where you can unobtrusively contribute (for example, buy tickets in advance), have him over for dinner etc. He'll still need to do all the paying in public, otherwise it's a loss of face.

It's all interpation isn't it. Being part of a Native American Community this issue comes up a lot and it always seemed to come down to the men who truely respected women and saw them as equals had one take and the men who felt superior had another.

I don't know what to think about why out of all the things to bring up and Thai sayings to repeat, one would choose what Spacebass decided to post.

Perhaps he has a low oppinion in the Thai men he has met. I'm not saying this to be a smart ass or cause an uproar. I just find it so offensive.

If someone had posted how she couldn't understand why her boyfriend treated her so pourly, then I might be able to understand why someone would bring this type of thing up. Kao Jai

Well, it's a little more than interpretation - it's culture. Like you, I don't want to cause an uproar, but it seems you have unfairly condemned Spacebass for talking about common and widely known elements of Thai society. It doesn't mean that every single person is exactly the same, or that some of these elements may be changing among some, but there are specific fundamental beliefs that define every society/religion/philosophy.

Whether or not women can enter temples, varies from region to region, because of the RELICS that are housed within those temples. While I think certain regions like Bangkok may be a bit more liberal about that interpretation, most women here still separate women's underpants from male laundry items, and they are hung up to dry and stored in a hierarchical fashion. Many also do not allow women to touch amulets that have been blessed for the cleanliness/menstruation power reasons.

I'm sure that not touching a monk is also about carefully guarding his modesty, but the cleanliness/menstruation issue is always involved with sacred or religious objects and symbols. Women are considered full of desires and wants, and attached to the earthly conditions of childbirth and menstruation, both considered "dirty". Did you know that it is considered a major jinx or interference to place soiled menstral panties under the pillow of a man's head? Women frequently have to handwash all of their undergarmets and let them dry inside or modestly hidden, both for modesty, but also because it is a law in Thailand not to upset the laundry hierarchy! Women cannot travel in train sleeping bearths that are over a monk. In Laos, another Theravada country, women are not allowed to sit in positions that are over a male's head in trucks or boats. This is also why women do not cross over men's bodies, and sit side-saddle on motorbikes when they are wearing skirts. Yes, it is about modesty, but there's something else going on.

Here is an additional page from Buddha Net (which is mostly general information about World Buddhism):

» Buddhism & Women » Questions & Answers » Question 21

It is commonly believed that women are unclean. How true is this belief?

Many temples do not allow women to circumambulate around the stupas. There is clear evidence of it particularly in the north of Thailand. This practice cannot find any support in the actual Buddhist teaching but is commonly believed and handed down as custom.

This belief in fact found its root in Hinduism where women are seen as religiously unclean because of their menstruation. Taking an opposite standpoint, one could say that women possess natural power. They are capable of nullifying sacred mantras long practised by Hindu men and priests. Because of this, Brahmin priests had to keep women outside their sacred sanctuary. Men, with their superior position in society, must control women who possess the natural power and declare them unclean during the menstruation period. This practice and belief is carried into Thai custom unknowingly. Just to give an example, while fermenting rice, menstruating women are not allowed near the area or the rice will be spoilt. They believe that menstruation holds secret power that can actually overcome magical spell. This is all Hindu belief and practice carried over into Thai culture and most Thais would think that prohibiting menstruating women is correct Buddhist practice, but is far from it.

From a Buddhist point of view, menstruation is a natural physical excretion that women have to go through on a monthly basis, nothing more or less. During this time women tend to have weaker emotional balance. They would need religious support more than any other time. But in practice, ironically, they are kept out of the temple and branded as unclean.

Copyright © 2004 - BDEA Inc. & BuddhaNet. All rights reserved.

Kat,

I never said that what Spacebass posted wasn't a common belief in Thailand. Nor, have I denied that generally speaking women are seen as inferior. Women are seen as inferior Worldwide.

However, I do find the saying about a prositute very offensive and I wonder why in the world someone would ever repeat such a thing when not prompted. It's a curiousity to me what goes through peoples heads and comes out their mouths.

Do you see what I'm getting on about?

As you can see on Buddha Net there are different interpitations on why things are done a certain way.

Spacebass put out one perspective. I put out another. And Yes, I did comment that I found part of his post offensive. I'm not saying this is how he feels about prositutes, but again, why would anyone repeat such an awful thing?

I align myself with the idea that a persons' thoughts and words can be very powerful.

So following that idea, if you hear something negative better to not repeat it and let it fall away.

What I should have done was just posted the perspective I had on the Monk issue and left the other comment alone.

But as you can see, I'm not very good at not reacting. Good leason for me.

Seville:

I don't blame you for reacting, or having strong feelings about things, but not everyone approaches discussion in the same way that you do. Some people prefer to hear and tell things as they are, to the best of their knowledge. I for one would never want to be insulated from less than positive information, because that provides an equally distorted and ignorant view of the world as only reporting the negative. In certain respects it's worse, because the repressed, suppressed, and oppressed are rendered invisible by false positives. Unfortunately, I see nothing in the posts of Spacebass that are untrue. We are talking about Farang women and Thai men, and the AIDS quote was about a Thai commercial sex worker. However, it is telling that the ultimate spiritual rebirth is to be a man. It is believed that women need at least several lifetimes before they can reach this superior birth. This is still all very relevant when discussing the cultural context of Thai gender patterns and expectations. I think there may be varying interpretations in how the culture deals with the concept of spiritual female "uncleanliness", but that is a basic premise within the culture.

Do you know that traditionally mothers and sisters are also not allowed to touch their sons and brothers when they have become monks? In more traditional times, one of the last earthy things a mother was allowed to do for her son was to make his monk's robes. In Theravada Burma, during a son's ordination, the mother walked behind him, holding onto the hem of his robe, so as to acknowledge her earthy and spiritual attachment to him (she receives merit from her son entering the monkhood); but she doesn't touch him. It is about much more than inspiring lust.

If you choose to hate and despise me for recognizing it, neither you or I have changed anything, except for the freedom and ability to discuss it openly. Discussion is an activity that allows different perspectives to compare, add, substantiate, prove, or disprove information and perspectives.

Please feel free to disprove, compare, discuss, and even disagree.

Women are not allowed into these temples because of the issue of menstruation, i.e. cleanliness. There was a huge spat between a female PM from the Northeast and Northern Thais, when she attempted to challenge this practice.

She didn't just challenge the practice, she pointed out that it is probably in violation of Thailand's Constitution. That she received abuse and death threats (but was otherwise ignored) is a good indicator of how little most Thais understand about the constitution and the reason for having it. Then again, the constitution was drawn up by a small group of urban, middle-class, Western-educated Thais.

So, now my BF is getting ready to tell his mom that he has asked me to be his girlfriend....I am curious as to what she may think. Any ideas on that one???

There was a topic here a couple of months ago where someone said that Thai guys tended to move from being boyfriend/gilfriend to talking about marriage and kids very quickly. Since you are about to officially become his girlfriend, maybe you should bear that in mind.

Dr CK: Internationally, people tend to understand better. In my work in Thailand, I do not talk about ordination of women because that is a very sensitive issue. I have to work at the grass roots, and talk at the level of people’s understanding. I realize that women in my country are not ready yet for ordination because they are not prepared. Right now we are giving them Buddhist education and training. When they are committed enough in their own practice, they will be committed enough to start wanting to lead a committed life, and then they will ask for ordination. Then we will go to the next step.

This is somewhat misleading. There are already (educated middle-class) women who want to be ordained as a full 311-precept bikkhuni but the Thai Sangha doesn't allow it yet. Whatever the real reasons for this, the official reason is that there never was a bikkhuni order in Thailand and the one in Sri Lanka died out. The Sri Lankan Sangha recently got around this problem (i.e. re-establishing the order) by having females ordained by Mahayana nuns.

One Thai woman has already ordained as a bikkhuni in Sri Lanka and returned to Thailand. Her order hasn't been recognised by the Thai Sangha but she's been left alone so far.

People don’t understand what the connection is between this ordination problem and the problem of prostitutes, for example. I try to bring this out in my presentations. When women cannot become ordained, because the image of women is so negative, that pushes women to the other end of the spectrum. That’s why the door to brothels is open for women. But why are the doors closed for women to become nuns?

Rather dubious logic here. Women can become ordained as 8-precept nuns (mae chee) if they have nowhere else to go. Even though it isn't fair, not being able to ordain as bikkhunis is hardly forcing women into brothels.

Women are not allowed into these temples because of the issue of menstruation, i.e. cleanliness. There was a huge spat between a female PM from the Northeast and Northern Thais, when she attempted to challenge this practice.

She didn't just challenge the practice, she pointed out that it is probably in violation of Thailand's Constitution. That she received abuse and death threats (but was otherwise ignored) is a good indicator of how little most Thais understand about the constitution and the reason for having it. Then again, the constitution was drawn up by a small group of urban, middle-class, Western-educated Thais.

Yeah, I agree.

This is somewhat misleading. There are already (educated middle-class) women who want to be ordained as a full 311-precept bikkhuni but the Thai Sangha doesn't allow it yet. Whatever the real reasons for this, the official reason is that there never was a bikkhuni order in Thailand and the one in Sri Lanka died out. The Sri Lankan Sangha recently got around this problem (i.e. re-establishing the order) by having females ordained by Mahayana nuns.

One Thai woman has already ordained as a bikkhuni in Sri Lanka and returned to Thailand. Her order hasn't been recognised by the Thai Sangha but she's been left alone so far.

Yeah, her name is Dhammananda Bhikkhuni:

www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=9,2107,0,0,1,0

Rather dubious logic here. Women can become ordained as 8-precept nuns (mae chee) if they have nowhere else to go. Even though it isn't fair, not being able to ordain as bikkhunis is hardly forcing women into brothels.

Yeah, I see your point. I think what Dr. CK was trying to say is that poor women have no other respectable Buddhist way to gain merit in the same way as men.

Its interesting how this has changed from a discussion about Thai men into a discussion into women's role in Thai Buddhist society.

I think that you are placing far too much weight on ideas in Thai buddhist culture and how it affects men's thinking. If Buddhism had such a strong effect on values then the murder rate in this country would certainly not be as high as it is.

Each person is different and takes from their education and religious values what they choose. Unless one is brainwashed into a cult then most people tailor their beliefs rather than swallow a doctrine whole, which is, frankly, what you seem to be suggesting here.

My husband is a Buddhist, has been a monk and certainly does not espouse (even subconciously) the values you seem to be suggesting are basic to Thai beliefs. Does this make him somehow not Thai? Or just an individual capable of forming his own opinions and values?

Something to consider when discussing how Thai men behave and react.

Dearest Kat,

I think I said this once, but I will say it again, I never disagreed in Spacebasses comments. Nor, do I disagree with what you have said. The OP, I'm sure, did not want to get the history of women and buddhism.

"but not everyone approaches discussion in the same way that you do. Some people prefer to hear and tell things as they are, to the best of their knowledge."

Clearly by this comment you are not understanding where I am coming from. The discussion was do's and don'ts in a realationship with a Thai man, not a Thai Monk.

I'd like to help lovinmythai but there are so many other factors as the other posters have been saying. Background, education, where born........

But as someone pointed out - and I have been married to Thai men twice - in the end for me my husbands expected quite a lot of adaptation. So we compromise and discuss but it took a long time!!! Only last night he was complaining about me not cleaning the house enough and saying "you don't know the way to do....". But other times he's fine. I think it's so hard for the Thai man to have this big farang woman with her liberated ideas etc so COMPROMISE is the key word.

If there is anything specific lovinmythai please ask me.

I didn'y mean to be sarcastic when I said why post three times, it's supposed to be a jokey way we talk here - sorry.

Mai ben rai Seonai...

I am probably too sensitive...

I think that the original reason that I had asked the questions that I had asked, is because I wasn't really sure if I should go into a relationship with someone, when I had been reading and hearing all of these things that were being said about Thai men that were not too favorable. Not ever knowing a Thai person before, I thought I should educate myself as best as I could. I do see the point that some people on here make about me needing to not judge him by what I had read. He is his own person with his own personality, and views, I know and appreciate that, I just thought that I should find out how much he may be influenced by the life he grew up with in Thailand. I think as in any relationship time will tell....

All of the american boys that I have been with seem to be the complete opposite of him, and maybe that's just because it has taken me a while to find a jai dee. And, that's not to say that there aren't american boys that have good hearts, I just hadn't ever been with one that spoiled me so much, and was such a gentleman. I also haven't been in a relationship with someone where things progressed so quickly, and I didn't know if that's his style, or "Thai style"?

I think that wherever anyone grows up, it would be hard to not be influenced by the values, views, and ways of ones country, no? I think in any culture there can be an overlying, dominating opinion of how things "should" go. I also know there can be many different ideas of how things should be. And in any country, "different strokes for different folks."

I'm just trying to find out what I might be in for. And maybe it's true that it could be something completely unrelated to Thailand, but I thought to ask what the overall general way that relationships were thought to go in Thailand go was not a bad idea.

Do they all move this quickly??... what does it mean to be someone's girlfriend??? ...is it a huge commitment??....why do some guys have so many girlfriends??....is it a big deal for him to tell his mother that I am his girlfriend??...or does it just depend on the person....(probably a big duh there) ..... He had 2 or 3 girlfriends in Thailand when he and I got together....of course he would only "see" them when he vistited Thailand, but now he has told them that he can not be their boyfriend...(I am very glad to hear).....but why can he have 3 Thai girlfriends, but then when he gets with me, he is only with me?....Don't get me wrong, I don't want him to have any other girlfriends....but why is it different with me and not them? If I was with a guy and I found out he had 3 other girlfriends....I would be out of that relationship so quickly, his head would spin!

I'm sure that in any relationship it just depends on the people. I just know that here, a guy can call me his "girl"...but that doesn't mean we have a huge commitment together. People have sex here, without commitments. I'm sure that happens there too.

Most all of the guys that I have met here, don't necessarily think that just because they are hanging out with a girl for any amount of time, that there is a solid commitment there, I think sometimes even Marriage here is not taken that seriously. I know it depends on the people, but overall in America, I don't think that people take commitments as seriously these days as maybe other countries, or people do? If we did we wouldn't have such a high divorce rate. It's something like only 30-40% of marriages in America work out....and who's to say how many of them are even happy. Hard to say. Is marriage taken seriously in Thailand, or easy come easy go too?

I see that there may be many different ways...and not just one....so that's probably my mistake for thinking there was a general idea. It's just the same as in America? Different people, different ideas.

Last night he said..."...in Thailand...we do not do that....."

That was in regards to when we were out with some friends, and I went to snuggle up to him....

Now there's a difference right there.....but is that just him...or how it is in Thailand?? Do you see where my questions are coming from??

I don't know.....it seems to me that there are some differences.....but maybe I am completely wrong.

...I think that you are placing far too much weight on ideas in Thai buddhist culture and how it affects men's thinking. If Buddhism had such a strong effect on values then the murder rate in this country would certainly not be as high as it is.

...Each person is different and takes from their education and religious values what they choose. Unless one is brainwashed into a cult then most people tailor their beliefs rather than swallow a doctrine whole, which is, frankly, what you seem to be suggesting here. ...

Something to consider when discussing how Thai men behave and react.

If you read and considered my comments fully, you would have also read that I did consider the above comments. In fact, I have considered it plenty, both through my personal experiences, my research, and my direct and secondary observations. I am not one for reactionary thinking.

We are talking about cultural frameworks, and as far as every Buddhist Thai that I've ever met is concerned, Thai Buddhism is a cultural framework. As far as the Thai Government is concerned, it is an official framework that encompasses law as well. Of course there are individuals in every society, but we are all shaped by our societies, both in obvious and unconscious ways. If your husband does not adhere to any of the basic tenets of Thai Theravada Buddhism, then he is an exception to the norm, and maybe as a reaction to it.

I made it clear that I'm talking about the norm, which is much less diverse than open and non-traditional societies. I'm not going to bother to repeat myself, because my words are plain enough for everyone to see.

By the way, I'm not the person who took this discussion off topic. However, it all seems related to anyway, because we are talking about cultural contexts. If you want to control the exact dialogue of every thread, then be my guest.

Dearest Kat,

I think I said this once, but I will say it again, I never disagreed in Spacebasses comments. Nor, do I disagree with what you have said. The OP, I'm sure, did not want to get the history of women and buddhism.

"but not everyone approaches discussion in the same way that you do. Some people prefer to hear and tell things as they are, to the best of their knowledge."

Clearly by this comment you are not understanding where I am coming from. The discussion was do's and don'ts in a realationship with a Thai man, not a Thai Monk.

Perhaps you don't even understand where you are coming from. First you badger a poster about "unclean" comments which turned out to be correct, and then you are offended about a factual statement regarding prostitutes and rebirth. All of these comments relate to gender attitudes in one of the most sacred and influential institutions of Thailand. If you think you can understand Thai men, Thai women, and Thai culture apart from these basic tenets, then you will continue to misdirect your ire at people who do understand. But, not my problem. All the best.

By the way, most Thai men are Thai monks for a little while at some point.

I think it should be obvious at this time the original poster has an American boyfriend. She is tired of reading the thought provoking posts on this thread because she has a limited attention span. Her limited attention span and limited knowledge of the world have not prepared her to the wealth of information that is available from people who actually travel and live in strange Asian countries. I would not expect her to post again. She could have gotten all the information she needed out of a simple search anyway

Actually I have done a lot of research in books and on the computer....I couldn't find answers to my questions on Thai Men/Farang woman relationships. I have searched long and hard. The only reason I haven't posted recently, is because I work hard, and am in the middle of my work week. Sorry to be delayed.

It's obvious that there are many different opinions, which I appreciate, I like to see what different people from different backgrounds have to say.

I just don't know that much about Thai men, that's all....so I thought this would be a good place to find out some info....I was right!

So, now my BF is getting ready to tell his mom that he has asked me to be his girlfriend....I am curious as to what she may think. Any ideas on that one???

As someone, (sorry I can't currently see) earlier mentioned, that I said my BF was returning to Thailand, he is only going for a visit to see his mom. He likes living in America, and we will go there for a visit.

I have never been in a relationship with someone that is from outside America, and I know and appreciate that Thailand is very different then America, so it has just sparked my interest in learning more, out of respect of my new boyfriend. Thanks for all the responses...

Here is the only set of 'Dos and Don'ts of Dating a Thai Guy' on the Internet:

Dos and donts of dating a Thai guy!

Not too be taken too seriously! All a bitta fun! Its gotta a lotta comments on Farang Woman/Thai Guy relationships too.

We are talking about cultural frameworks, and as far as every Buddhist Thai that I've ever met is concerned, Thai Buddhism is a cultural framework. As far as the Thai Government is concerned, it is an official framework that encompasses law as well. Of course there are individuals in every society, but we are all shaped by our societies, both in obvious and unconscious ways. If your husband does not adhere to any of the basic tenets of Thai Theravada Buddhism, then he is an exception to the norm, and maybe as a reaction to it.

I made it clear that I'm talking about the norm, which is much less diverse than open and non-traditional societies. I'm not going to bother to repeat myself, because my words are plain enough for everyone to see.

By the way, I'm not the person who took this discussion off topic. However, it all seems related to anyway, because we are talking about cultural contexts. If you want to control the exact dialogue of every thread, then be my guest.

I am not accusing anyone just trying to get the thread back on topic. A moderators job is to moderate, if you dislike my attempt to keep the thread back on track, then may I suggest you start your own thread about the role of women in Buddhist society either here or in the Buddhist forum.

The topic at hand is etiquette dos and donts with a Thai man.

You're right, and you are more than fair. I'm sorry if I caused you any grief, SBK.

Hi LovinMyThai, well I certainly see all your questions and thoughts!!!! About snuggling up in public..... it's horrible but true. Thai men won't normally show their feelings in public. It's taken me three years to get my hubby to sneak me a quick hug outside when no one is looking!!!!!

Did you ever go to the Thai temple in America together? That's a good way to get to know Thai people and culture. I used to go to one in London for ages before I came to Thailand.

Stick in there, it'll be okay.

Seonai

Kat,

Perhaps you don't even understand where you are coming from. First you badger a poster about "unclean" comments which turned out to be correct, and then you are offended about a factual statement regarding prostitutes and rebirth. All of these comments relate to gender attitudes in one of the most sacred and influential institutions of Thailand. If you think you can understand Thai men, Thai women, and Thai culture apart from these basic tenets, then you will continue to misdirect your ire at people who do understand. But, not my problem. All the best.

Badger, how about giving a diffrent out look on something in one sentence.

Correct? Factual?

I give up.

Hi LovinMyThai, well I certainly see all your questions and thoughts!!!! About snuggling up in public..... it's horrible but true. Thai men won't normally show their feelings in public. It's taken me three years to get my hubby to sneak me a quick hug outside when no one is looking!!!!!

Did you ever go to the Thai temple in America together? That's a good way to get to know Thai people and culture. I used to go to one in London for ages before I came to Thailand.

Stick in there, it'll be okay.

Seonai

Okay...so my internet has been out for a while...so I have been incognito....update....

It's now been 7 weeks....things are still going great....and I think that many of my previous questions and concerns have mellowed out a lot....we are still very happy...and he is still a true gentleman....we actually have plans to go to the Buddhist Temple here in town next week...so that will be interesting, and I think really cool to be able to go there. Thanks to everyone for you support, answers and guidance. I have more faith and less "fear" and worries, then I had when we first started dating...and that's all I can hope for is that we can live day by day..with faith and love. I am learning a lot, my Thai speaking skills are getting really good, so hopefully when we go in September to visit his mom in Chiang Mai, I can have good conversations with her. There were a couple of little bumps in the last couple weeks, from mis-understandings...which can happen in any relationship....but it's mostly us trying to overcome language mis-understandings. So...I'm back on the internet now...so hopefully I'll get to be around more. Take care everybody!

Hi LovinMyThai, well I certainly see all your questions and thoughts!!!! About snuggling up in public..... it's horrible but true. Thai men won't normally show their feelings in public. It's taken me three years to get my hubby to sneak me a quick hug outside when no one is looking!!!!!

Did you ever go to the Thai temple in America together? That's a good way to get to know Thai people and culture. I used to go to one in London for ages before I came to Thailand.

Stick in there, it'll be okay.

Seonai

Okay...so my internet has been out for a while...so I have been incognito....update....

It's now been 7 weeks....things are still going great....and I think that many of my previous questions and concerns have mellowed out a lot....we are still very happy...and he is still a true gentleman....we actually have plans to go to the Buddhist Temple here in town next week...so that will be interesting, and I think really cool to be able to go there. Thanks to everyone for you support, answers and guidance. I have more faith and less "fear" and worries, then I had when we first started dating...and that's all I can hope for is that we can live day by day..with faith and love. I am learning a lot, my Thai speaking skills are getting really good, so hopefully when we go in September to visit his mom in Chiang Mai, I can have good conversations with her. There were a couple of little bumps in the last couple weeks, from mis-understandings...which can happen in any relationship....but it's mostly us trying to overcome language mis-understandings. So...I'm back on the internet now...so hopefully I'll get to be around more. Take care everybody!

Good to hear all is well. Things are not so rosy on other threads at the moment so nice to hear your happy and luvin your Thai. As am I.