Liverpool F.c.

[Mossfinn]

59 out of 96 could have survived.

Steve

This bit I don't understand, I know they stated that all life was extinguished by 3.15, a palpable lie, but have they stated that the medical services just stopped helping those in need? If so, that day just gets worse.

4. Dozens of the 96 victims could have been saved

The original coroner's inquest was wrong to suggest that beyond 3.15pm there were no actions that could have changed the fate of the 96 victims. Cameron announced that the independent panel found that "28 did not have obstruction of blood circulation and 31 had evidence of heart and lungs continuing to function after the crush." Individuals in those groups could have had potentially reversible asphyxia beyond 3.15pm

From the New Statesmen

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19567356

from what I can gather, if the response had been better, some could have been given better medical help, with the potential to survive.

It is hard to believe they had no real plan to deal with any potential disaster and when you consider the amount of ambulance responses, only one got to the area of most need.

Edited September 12, 2012 by Mossfinn

[StevieH]

still in shock today about this. now there must be a full new inquest.

[JacknDanny]

still in shock today about this. now there must be a full new inquest.

Stevie, with respect, I think what is being said, you already knew. You knew there were lies and cover ups.

I would have thought there would be some relief from your side that the truth has finally come out.

To be honest, I didnt think as much of the truth would come out , so fair play.

Unfortunately, I dont see anyone being brought to justice. I can see a few scapegoats being blamed, but no chance of anyone with rank or high position of authority being charged, unless they are no longer with us , then they will see most of the blame falling in their direction

[smokie36]

still in shock today about this. now there must be a full new inquest.

Yes there must Stevie, and the person responsible for the 3.15 cut off should be made to squirm in a courtroom before being locked up. That decision was totally unforgivable.

I can see what happened on the day as being a series of stupid decisions and a lack of any common sense on the ground, with the outcome as we know to have been absolutely horrific

What happened after is pure filth.

[mrtoad]

still in shock today about this. now there must be a full new inquest.

Stevie, with respect, I think what is being said, you already knew. You knew there were lies and cover ups.

I would have thought there would be some relief from your side that the truth has finally come out.

To be honest, I didnt think as much of the truth would come out , so fair play.

Unfortunately, I dont see anyone being brought to justice. I can see a few scapegoats being blamed, but no chance of anyone with rank or high position of authority being charged, unless they are no longer with us , then they will see most of the blame falling in their direction

I think sadly you are right, and this whole thing goes right to the top, and not just Police. I am pretty sure that the Dictator we had in 1989 would certainly have been aware of the cover ups, and given her track record with football would have been happy to keep these lies going.

This is certainly a big step for the Liverpool fans, and I am glad that they have got to this eventually, although 23 years is disgusting.

[StevieH]

I think sadly you are right, and this whole thing goes right to the top, and not just Police. I am pretty sure that the Dictator we had in 1989 would certainly have been aware of the cover ups, and given her track record with football would have been happy to keep these lies going.

This is certainly a big step for the Liverpool fans, and I am glad that they have got to this eventually, although 23 years is disgusting.

i agree, i have no doubt that thatcher was fully apprised and aware of the strategy. patnick wasn't operating autonomously and thatcher visited hillsborough in the aftermath, accompanied by patnick and that odious reptile bernard ingham. telling me there wasn't a briefing note about a prime ministerial visit to a disaster site? that she was blissfully ignorant? not having it.

the FA have just issued their own statement and it's typically pathetic. doesn't mention the word 'sorry' or anything resembling it. and it was them that allowed the match to go ahead despite knowing full well that the stadium didn't have a safety certificate.

the whole thing has been, as suspected, an institutional scandal of epic proportions. government, police and media colluded to smear and dam_n innocent citizens who died at a football match. people with no voice who they thought couldn't fight back. well look what happened.

[MrRed]

I think sadly you are right, and this whole thing goes right to the top, and not just Police. I am pretty sure that the Dictator we had in 1989 would certainly have been aware of the cover ups, and given her track record with football would have been happy to keep these lies going.

This is certainly a big step for the Liverpool fans, and I am glad that they have got to this eventually, although 23 years is disgusting.

i agree, i have no doubt that thatcher was fully apprised and aware of the strategy. patnick wasn't operating autonomously and thatcher visited hillsborough in the aftermath, accompanied by patnick and that odious reptile bernard ingham. telling me there wasn't a briefing note about a prime ministerial visit to a disaster site? that she was blissfully ignorant? not having it.

the FA have just issued their own statement and it's typically pathetic. doesn't mention the word 'sorry' or anything resembling it. and it was them that allowed the match to go ahead despite knowing full well that the stadium didn't have a safety certificate.

the whole thing has been, as suspected, an institutional scandal of epic proportions. government, police and media colluded to smear and dam_n innocent citizens who died at a football match. people with no voice who they thought couldn't fight back. well look what happened.

Here ya go....

http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11669/8075467/FA-offers-Hillsborough-apology

[mrtoad]

Would love to see Thatcher and her odious cronies have to take some responsibility for this, unfortunately it won't happen. Whilst this has been a monumental step, it's not over know as they are going ot have to reopen an investigation and actually hold people from the establishment accountable, anything less and it's a bother cover up.

[StevieH]

Here ya go....

http://www1.skysport...borough-apology

tremendous. now they can explain why they agreed for the match to be played in a stadium which they knew was unsafe and which they knew had no safety certificate.

also be interesting to hear their explanations for the following:

Note from FA lawyers in Aug 1989: 'It went without saying the FA should not make any admissions on liability.' http://hillsborough....00005480001.pdf

FA lawyers (1990): 'We'd tinkered with wording of Rule24 to incorporate get-out clauses for complying with safety'. http://hillsborough....00005870001.pdf

It seems Sheff Wed wanted compensation from FA over lost revenue for semi-final being 'cancelled'. http://hillsborough....00004890001.pdf

On day after tragedy, FA lawyers tell FA to be 'careful' of donation to victims: might be seen as taking responsibility: http://hillsborough....00004350001.pdf

and for that advice they paid over £300k: http://hillsborough....00005570001.pdf

and why it's taken them, the custodians of the english game, 23 years to apologise and show any sympathy.

[StevieH]

Would love to see Thatcher and her odious cronies have to take some responsibility for this, unfortunately it won't happen. Whilst this has been a monumental step, it's not over know as they are going ot have to reopen an investigation and actually hold people from the establishment accountable, anything less and it's a bother cover up.

that's the documentation i think has been destroyed mate. any paper trail back to that bitch would have been done away with. same as anything she ordered around the miners' strikes.

[mrtoad]

Would love to see Thatcher and her odious cronies have to take some responsibility for this, unfortunately it won't happen. Whilst this has been a monumental step, it's not over know as they are going ot have to reopen an investigation and actually hold people from the establishment accountable, anything less and it's a bother cover up.

that's the documentation i think has been destroyed mate. any paper trail back to that bitch would have been done away with. same as anything she ordered around the miners' strikes.

Yep, that's the sad thing that accountability will not happen with certain people, sure though there will be a couple of scapegoats.

Will be interesting to see what happens next. The campaigners have done a fine job, and they have at least managed to put an end to the disgusting lies that were sent out by the establishment blaming them.

[nev]

my heart goes out for those that died and lost loved ones, no ones deserves too die going to watching a football match!!,now we can get jft39 that died at heysel!!,we can only hope.

[BangrakBob]

In the 23 years that has gone by there has been many people who have passed away who were directly or indirectly connected to those that died on that day and will never get their justice or peace and those around them that survived have to live with the fact that their loved ones went to the grave with not knowing what we know now, for many there will never be any closure on this. 23 years to late.

Edited September 14, 2012 by BangrakBob

[rijit]

And it still goes on <deleted>!!!!!! just been listening to the fa announcement post the hearing s results, big up to the panel/ investigators nearly half a mil doco's looked at , but the fa's announcement full of self praise how they fully co- operated, blah blah blah

with the enquiry ,dont they ever learn, not a MENTION of HOW THEY TOTALLY GOT IT WRONG, sounded a totally cooperate statement made by press pr and solicitors, niot what was needed

not wishing to stray 2 much

Just been lookin at this

Wasnt at the game but went to the replay at Highbury of all places

Please excuse my reminiscing, but the replay stands well out in my memory , got there early 2 pic up a wolves returned ticket, , parked out side the ground, pleased as punch,went to see a mate who lived 500 yrds from the ground,At the match, 10 mins to go we were 3 nil up so, thought lets get going and miss the traffic, so got around to my car and i was parked in front of a set of gates, as i started up, they opened and out poured the unhappy wolves fans!!!! <deleted> they saw my car, literally picked it up and turned it around so it faced the totally opposite direction <deleted>!!!! LOL , luckily i turned the engine of and all i could do was have a laugh with the fans as they were doing it, the cops were watching but were so outnumbered they could just stand and watch, and at the end of the eveningI I was just happy to get home in one piece.

Edited September 14, 2012 by rijit

[BlueScouse]

From another website.

Watching from afar 'Liverpool hopes the truth will finally out'. Unfortunately that should read 'Liverpool hopes for their desired version of the truth to come out' instead.

It appears only outright blame on Thatcher's government and police will satisfy Merseyside and if that doesn't come forth then cries of 'whitewash' will happen.

The truth will come out, but people should be prepared to accept it, whatever shape it takes.

So it seems,conspiracy theories with coal miners etc. Some people won't be satisfied unless St. Margaret admits to authorisig the police to open the gates.

[StevieH]

From another website.

Watching from afar 'Liverpool hopes the truth will finally out'. Unfortunately that should read 'Liverpool hopes for their desired version of the truth to come out' instead.

It appears only outright blame on Thatcher's government and police will satisfy Merseyside and if that doesn't come forth then cries of 'whitewash' will happen.

The truth will come out, but people should be prepared to accept it, whatever shape it takes.

So it seems,conspiracy theories with coal miners etc. Some people won't be satisfied unless St. Margaret admits to authorisig the police to open the gates.

there are always flat-earthers mate. this week drew a line in the sand and it's going to be interesting this weekend to hear how many fans all over england sing 'justice for the 96'. i won't even ask you where that's from, i don't care. we now know what happened.

[JacknDanny]

From another website.

Watching from afar 'Liverpool hopes the truth will finally out'. Unfortunately that should read 'Liverpool hopes for their desired version of the truth to come out' instead.

It appears only outright blame on Thatcher's government and police will satisfy Merseyside and if that doesn't come forth then cries of 'whitewash' will happen.

The truth will come out, but people should be prepared to accept it, whatever shape it takes.

So it seems,conspiracy theories with coal miners etc. Some people won't be satisfied unless St. Margaret admits to authorisig the police to open the gates.

there are always flat-earthers mate. this week drew a line in the sand and it's going to be interesting this weekend to hear how many fans all over england sing 'justice for the 96'. i won't even ask you where that's from, i don't care. we now know what happened.

I dont think there will be the fans singing this weekend Stevie. I think most of the fans, like you have known for a long time that there was a cover up.

Point is how far does it go now?

My guess is that it will all fall on the doorstep of the ex Chief Constable who was in charge on the day, who died a couple of years ago. The blame will all be put on him because there can be no denials..

What is going to make the victims families happy? What will give them closure? Not sure that will happen for a long time. I fear this has opened a can of worms, where officials are going to be diving for cover.

I sympathise with the victims because it was avoidable and the cover up was apparant for so long without any real investigation. But I think it is a reach that you will eventually get somebody on the stand accused of anything serious.

[katana]

A day of complete respect for the battle that the families have been through to get to this point. Some of the news today has been devastating - the lives that could have been saved. But it goes beyond that terrible day for the lessons that were never learned and fans of all clubs should understand how it could have been them:

Wow, didn't realise the same thing happened 8 years earlier at the same ground and they did nothing to rectify the danger.

The awful irony in that video is the big advertising hoarding on the stands @1.32 for 'Gridweld welded mesh fencing Wigan 44071'...

There were even signs of problems at Hillsborough as far back as 1973 in the Arsenal vs. Sunderland FA Cup Semi Final:

"...Many Arsenal fans that went to the Sunderland semi final at Hillsborough in 1973 will remember the dreadful crush in the Leppings Lane end.The police opened the gates in panic because of a back up of fans ,many poured in without tickets .To make matters worse the FA had given the seated area behind us to Sunderland fans ,we wre drenched with Beer and piss during the game and Arenal fans were trying to climb up to their fans .We were not surprised whwn this dump of a ground was the scene of a terrible disaster years on..."

http://pages.citebite.com/k5q1w1q1xbhd

[MrRed]

From another website.

Watching from afar 'Liverpool hopes the truth will finally out'. Unfortunately that should read 'Liverpool hopes for their desired version of the truth to come out' instead.

It appears only outright blame on Thatcher's government and police will satisfy Merseyside and if that doesn't come forth then cries of 'whitewash' will happen.

The truth will come out, but people should be prepared to accept it, whatever shape it takes.

So it seems,conspiracy theories with coal miners etc. Some people won't be satisfied unless St. Margaret admits to authorisig the police to open the gates.

there are always flat-earthers mate. this week drew a line in the sand and it's going to be interesting this weekend to hear how many fans all over england sing 'justice for the 96'. i won't even ask you where that's from, i don't care. we now know what happened.

Don't hold your breath on other fans singing Justice for the 96,what's needed now is a bit of dignity in the proceedings to win favor with other sets of supporters if that is also what you are after.There is only so much blame that can be given to the different authorities that day and the report has vindicated that blame and the apologies have come forward from the different organisations.The lady that has impressed me is the head of the Hillsborough support group Margaret ? very dignified and gracious in her cause for justice.

Nobody wants this to be dragged on anymore through the courts inquiry after inquiry do they?

A lot of people are still thinking why there was never an official inquiry into the Heysel disaster and the death of the Italians...... "It is incongruous to attempt to draw a parallel between the two disasters, given that the cause of Heysel was hooliganism. However, if there was one common denominator, it concerned the inadequate crowd arrangements." - Alan Hansen

On the 29th May 1985 Liverpool F.C played Juventus F.C(Italy) in the European Cup Final held at the Heysel Stadium in Brussels, Belgium.

The events prior to the match ensured that the match would prove insignificant.

UEFA had decided that the stand behind one of the goals would be allocated to Liverpool supporters but that the end section of the stand be allocated for 'neutrals.'

Liverpool F.C objected to UEFA about the allocation, as they would do prior to Hillsborough, but their fears were ignored. This gave the potential for the two sets of rival supporters to be in the same stand separated only by an inadequate, flimsy fence, which only consisted of chicken wire.

This decision proved to be the recipe for disaster.

It transpired that the 'neutral' section was filled by mostly Italians who had bought tickets from the neutral Belgium's

Due to the close proximity the Juventus supporters began to pelt the Liverpool supporters in the adjacent section with missiles. In provocation, and maybe remembering the violence they were subjected to at the previous Final in Rome, the Liverpool supporters charged towards the Juventus fans and into the neutral section.

Fighting broke out and in panic the spectators not involved in the trouble started to flee away from the trouble and towards the opposite end of the enclosure. Unfortunately their escape was blocked by a brick wall, built to contain, which ran along the entirety of the parameter of the enclosure.

In the resulting crush, as spectators tried to scale the wall and negotiate the drop that followed, the wall collapsed under the mounting pressure.

Thirty nine people lost their lives. As with Hillsborough the poor stadium design gave no chance for the large numbers to safely evacuate.

Consequently all English Clubs were banned from European competitions for 5 years, with Liverpool receiving a further 2 year ban.

Nothing can excuse the actions of the Liverpool 'supporters', no matter how provoked, but the decision to allocate the tickets did prove to be a major contributory factor.

As with Hillsborough, the Heysel Stadium was criticised for the decrepit and unsafe facilities and it was deemed that the Stadium was totally unsuitable to host such an occasion. The Belgium authorities were criticised for their total lack of organisation (many supporters entered the ground without having to show or surrender their tickets) and it was declared that the Heysel Stadium should not be used to stage football matches. The Heysel Stadium was then primarily used for athletic meetings until being largely rebuilt and renamed to host Euro 2000.

No major inquiry was ever made into the causes of the disaster and it seems now that the causes and the circumstances have been chosen to be forgotten, only blame remains...

Where does this end?

We could talk about the gracious and dignified way Bradford as a city coped with the terrible fire that killed 56 people and the popplewell report that blamed the club and the local authorities for not heeding warnings about the decrepit state of the ground.

RIP to all 96 who died at Hillsborough.

Edited September 14, 2012 by MrRed

[BangrakBob]

YNWA is flying up the iTunes charts around the world right now, Eng #1, Aust #10, Malaysia #36. Ireland #2

Just read Mk Dons will sing for the 96 @ 3.06 at their match today.

[nellyp]

1-0 sunderland, why oh why can we not attack with penetration like that. We are so pedestrian my old pub team could figure out a defense. Stevie G you need to figure it out, at the moment you are a passenger.

[nellyp]

Sterling is a definite bonus for us, but we need to stop thinking he can hold the play up. Give him something to run onto. Suarez needs to stop diving, eventually a blatant penalty will not be given

[nellyp]

An apology to Louis Suarez. That was a penalty, looking in slow mo, why should he fight to stay up. Even if no penalty definitely no yellow card. Appeal it and show the Man U penalty as a comparison. As you can see you, should contemplate and absorb the facts before making a comment. As a Liverpool supporter I should understand this better.

[sharecropper]

An apology to Louis Suarez. That was a penalty, looking in slow mo, why should he fight to stay up. Even if no penalty definitely no yellow card. Appeal it and show the Man U penalty as a comparison. As you can see you, should contemplate and absorb the facts before making a comment. As a Liverpool supporter I should understand this better.

No, you were right first time, that scheming, RADA-trained, dissembling scumbag needs to stay on his feet more often than he does when there's an opposing player withing half a mile of him.

[rixalex]

An apology to Louis Suarez. That was a penalty, looking in slow mo, why should he fight to stay up. Even if no penalty definitely no yellow card. Appeal it and show the Man U penalty as a comparison. As you can see you, should contemplate and absorb the facts before making a comment. As a Liverpool supporter I should understand this better.

I wouldn't apologise. When you have a habit of diving and build up a reputation, it does tend to come back to haunt you at some point, like you said earlier. And before you rattle off a list of other offenders, no, Suarez is not the only one. He does seem to be taking it to a higher level though. I hate but understand players going down in or around the box, but he seems to do it even if he's on the half way line complete with half a dozen rolly-pollies. Reminds me of Nani a year or two back.

Edited September 16, 2012 by rixalex

[JacknDanny]

An apology to Louis Suarez. That was a penalty, looking in slow mo, why should he fight to stay up. Even if no penalty definitely no yellow card. Appeal it and show the Man U penalty as a comparison. As you can see you, should contemplate and absorb the facts before making a comment. As a Liverpool supporter I should understand this better.

I wouldn't apologise. When you have a habit of diving and build up a reputation, it does tend to come back to haunt you at some point, like you said earlier. And before you rattle off a list of other offenders, no, Suarez is not the only one. He does seem to be taking it to a higher level though. I hate but understand players going down in or around the box, but he seems to do it even if he's on the half way line complete with half a dozen rolly-pollies. Reminds me of Nani a year or two back.

Welbecks dive yesterday was amateurish!! Following his one for England, it would appear he is Uniteds new Nani

[rixalex]

An apology to Louis Suarez. That was a penalty, looking in slow mo, why should he fight to stay up. Even if no penalty definitely no yellow card. Appeal it and show the Man U penalty as a comparison. As you can see you, should contemplate and absorb the facts before making a comment. As a Liverpool supporter I should understand this better.

I wouldn't apologise. When you have a habit of diving and build up a reputation, it does tend to come back to haunt you at some point, like you said earlier. And before you rattle off a list of other offenders, no, Suarez is not the only one. He does seem to be taking it to a higher level though. I hate but understand players going down in or around the box, but he seems to do it even if he's on the half way line complete with half a dozen rolly-pollies. Reminds me of Nani a year or two back.

Welbecks dive yesterday was amateurish!! Following his one for England, it would appear he is Uniteds new Nani

No not really. Nani was much worse. As i said in the Man United thread, when you are in the box and the keeper comes flying at you, and not at the ball, doesn't make contact with you, but does cut across your path, much as i would prefer my player stay on his feet and score that way, i do understand why a player may feel justified in going down. I haven't seen the Suarez incident so couldn't comment on whether it was the same sort of situation. If it was, well then i understand why he went down. That wasn't my point though. My point was, players who have a reputation of going down easily, can have it come back to haunt them. I don't feel too much sympathy for them, be they my player or be they someone else's. Nani was pathetic with his diving a while back and i hated him for it. Yesterday he had a prime opportunity to go down when he was shoulder barged in the box. He stayed on his feet. I think that shows he has improved. Now i just hate him for his crap final balls and selfish attempts on goal.

[JacknDanny]

An apology to Louis Suarez. That was a penalty, looking in slow mo, why should he fight to stay up. Even if no penalty definitely no yellow card. Appeal it and show the Man U penalty as a comparison. As you can see you, should contemplate and absorb the facts before making a comment. As a Liverpool supporter I should understand this better.

I wouldn't apologise. When you have a habit of diving and build up a reputation, it does tend to come back to haunt you at some point, like you said earlier. And before you rattle off a list of other offenders, no, Suarez is not the only one. He does seem to be taking it to a higher level though. I hate but understand players going down in or around the box, but he seems to do it even if he's on the half way line complete with half a dozen rolly-pollies. Reminds me of Nani a year or two back.

Welbecks dive yesterday was amateurish!! Following his one for England, it would appear he is Uniteds new Nani

No not really. Nani was much worse. As i said in the Man United thread, when you are in the box and the keeper comes flying at you, and not at the ball, doesn't make contact with you, but does cut across your path, much as i would prefer my player stay on his feet and score that way, i do understand why a player may feel justified in going down. I haven't seen the Suarez incident so couldn't comment on whether it was the same sort of situation. If it was, well then i understand why he went down. That wasn't my point though. My point was, players who have a reputation of going down easily, can have it come back to haunt them. I don't feel too much sympathy for them, be they my player or be they someone else's. Nani was pathetic with his diving a while back and i hated him for it. Yesterday he had a prime opportunity to go down when he was shoulder barged in the box. He stayed on his feet. I think that shows he has improved. Now i just hate him for his crap final balls and selfish attempts on goal.

It makes you wonder, though, where Welbeck gets it from. Ferguson definitely does not approve it. Rooney is not a diver. Why would a kid with so much talent as Welbeck, start acting like a cissy for 2 games on the bounce, with his pathertic diving?

My issue with Suarez is that he goes down EVERY time in or out of the box, as soon as the defender gets within a foot of him. Some of it is justified, some of it is not. That creates doubt, so the ref if he is not sure cannot give a penalty. He now has this reputation, and its difficult to shake off

[mrtoad]

Suarez goes down more than the girls in Afterskool, aledgedly.

[longstebe]

Ooooooo with them teeth aswell.

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