An Education In Fear

[benalibina]

On point 3, that is only regarding the happy few then !

By learning a language it does not mean changing a way of thinking. It only means 1 can communicate with another.

Point 2, if alot more thai people can speak good english it would benefit the country.

Point 1, well if the country is doing good economywise and there must be alot of thais who are educated abroad it should not be difficult.

If they would really make a program, thailand would benefit from it and therefore they could actually be really and rightly proud of being thai.

Selfish and ignorant underachievers ???

[sunlong]

Still it does not answer my question of - why do they not make a program to get qualified thai people to teach english at the schools ?

Define 'Qualified'

There are many Thai teachers who majored and mastered in English.

I was asked to write more than a few MA theses ( plural) for these fine folk.

As far as they and the Thai Education system are concerned, they ARE qualified.

But boy do they suck ass at teaching/reading/writing/listening/speaking

-

Yes, I'd say someone having a degree in English language from a Thai university practically guarantees that they couldn't hold a conversation or write an essay past (what should be) 6th grade level.

They get hired by people whose English is even worse, and because their skills are better than everyone else around them everyone says "phut passat geng maak".

But when the foreigner actually comes in to talk about their account, PANIC time! I used to find it hilarious, now take a more sensitive approach and help them not lose face.

But pretty tough when it's your boss, they're trying to hold a conversation with you in front of parents that speak better English than they do and you don't have a clue what they're trying to say.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

Edit: Moreover, the Thai teachers have textbooks to work with, whereas I must write my entire lesson out on the board, and then constantly ensure the students are diligently copying it. Some finish quickly, while others can't be bothered to start writing until 20 minutes into the class.

This is a major classroom management error on your part.

Almost no children in the world would react favourably in this situation.

Copying = teaching failure.

Copying from the board = double teaching failure.

Two classroom management tips, no copying, no turning your back to the class.

But a class of 50 is pretty hopeless even for the best of teachers.

Edited June 5, 2013 by AnotherOneAmerican

[benalibina]

Saving face ! Lol.

[sunlong]

On point 3, that is only regarding the happy few then !

By learning a language it does not mean changing a way of thinking. It only means 1 can communicate with another.

Point 2, if alot more thai people can speak good english it would benefit the country.

Point 1, well if the country is doing good economywise and there must be alot of thais who are educated abroad it should not be difficult.

If they would really make a program, thailand would benefit from it and therefore they could actually be really and rightly proud of being thai.

Selfish and ignorant underachievers ???

-

What makes you think the people that run things here care about the welfare of the country as a whole? I don't get that impression at all, I think they'd prefer keep being a big fish in a little pond rather than helping the common people. . .

Many Thais are educated abroad but end up having very poor language skills, especially if they only went after tertiary level.

Those that are truly competent would usually have no interest in becoming teachers, even if they were paid just as much as NES, they usually come from wealthy families and are going to be fully occupied expanding that empire.

As far as your first comment goes I disagree, my thinking patterns have definitely changed with each new language I've acquired:

The limits of my language are the limits of my world.

‒ Ludwig Wittgenstein

To have another language is to possess a second soul.

‒ Charlemagne

Edited June 5, 2013 by sunlong

[benalibina]

Did i give you the impression that they care ?

I tried to make the point that they SHOULD care because it benefits the country as a whole. Even the 1s in control.

[Newguy70]

 

You need training and hands-on experience

 

In some of my primary classes in Myanmar, I was teaching more than 100 kids, aged from about 4 years - 12 years old.  Being able to successfully manage a class of that size, and actually teach the kids the subject matter was possible because of my previous experience and academic training.

 

Simon

What type of academic training prepared you for 100 kids?

I have 51 kids in a few of my classes, and 30-35 in the majority of the other classes. I have seen trained teachers from the U.S. and England almost lose it in classes with more than thirty five students. Most usually leave as they would rather seek new employment than attempt to work in a class with more than 35 students.

I agree with the hands on experience.

[sunlong]

Did i give you the impression that they care ?

I tried to make the point that they SHOULD care because it benefits the country as a whole. Even the 1s in control.

-

Sorry I thought we were still discussing the reasons why solutions are so difficult maybe even impossible.

-

Why do they not make a program to get qualified thai people to teach english at the schools ?

-

Yes I agree they *should* care, I don't think anyone here disagrees in an ideal world many things would be different.

Edited June 5, 2013 by sunlong

[benalibina]

The pity of all these valid discussions and etc, is that we hardly even have an influence to change some other way of thinking within our close environment so how can we expect a change on the 1s who have the influence to change something ?

Does anyone know if there are forums for thais by thais similar like thaivisa ?

[arthurwait]

The pity of all these valid discussions and etc, is that we hardly even have an influence to change some other way of thinking within our close environment so how can we expect a change on the 1s who have the influence to change something ?

Does anyone know if there are forums for thais by thais similar like thaivisa ?

Tee nee , Hi 5 if you want to discuss thai celebrities and can write Thai.

[arthurwait]

On point 3, that is only regarding the happy few then !

By learning a language it does not mean changing a way of thinking. It only means 1 can communicate with another.

Point 2, if alot more thai people can speak good english it would benefit the country.

Point 1, well if the country is doing good economywise and there must be alot of thais who are educated abroad it should not be difficult.

If they would really make a program, thailand would benefit from it and therefore they could actually be really and rightly proud of being thai.

Selfish and ignorant underachievers ???

Plenty of Thais speak fluent English , but they don't work for teachers wages, why would they want to be "underachievers" on those wages ?

They have the skills, education and connections to get further than 100k per month.

Why would more Thais speaking English benefit the country ? 90% of Thais will never need it. They need a skill that makes money. Everyone that really needs it speaks English already except teachers. TEFL'ers learning the language of the country they teach in would help.

As for the Thai economy doing well, it really isn't that good. Expect the baht to crash soon.

Why doesn't the government do a program to improve English well again it's not that important. Why don't they improve education for the good of the country ?

[chuckacinco]

This is a classroom management problem not a problem with subject competency.

First, to pretend that a giant class is going to behave the same as a smaller one is ridiculous. The obvious teacher focused lessons are going to fail. The types of activities more focusing on students doing the work rather than the teacher "lecturing" will solve many of the problems.

Second, there is absolutely nothing a teacher can do to motivate a student into learning something the student does not want to learn. That brings up the question as to why anyone with any education at all would teach at a Thai government school where obviously English learning is not taken seriously. If you taught at a better school, you would have more motivated students.

Third, a degree in English Literature is not a degree in ESL or EFL or whatever it is that Thai students at government schools need to learn. Explicating poetry or examining literary devices in literature has nothing to do with the practicality of presenting practical language learning. I know this from personal experience.

Finally, going back to school to learn how to teach is the smartest thing you can do. Everyone thinks they can be a teacher because they have been with teachers in their own educational systems. Teaching is something that must be learned. The "natural" teacher may exist but these rare people are very very rare. Those that think they are natural teachers are often deluded comedians. Go back to school. Again, this is from personal experience.

I cringe when I try to talk about teaching with "teachers" who have no practical experience teaching. Some of these teachers have an education and some don't. The ability to teach includes the ability to lesson plan effectively and use classroom management strategies to overcome the bumps that come in a very human delivery of education. The measure of a good teacher is the number of tools he can bring to bear in meeting the various challenges that come with the territory. Whether the class size is five or fifty and/or whether the students are motivated or not, you are not qualified to teach unless you can think of at least ten (or more) different approaches to the practical delivery of your subject. Go back to school.

[simple1]

The pity of all these valid discussions and etc, is that we hardly even have an influence to change some other way of thinking within our close environment so how can we expect a change on the 1s who have the influence to change something ?

Does anyone know if there are forums for thais by thais similar like thaivisa ?

Yes, my Thai step son who lives in Australia communicates with other oveaseas Thais as well as those living in Thailand, think it's called "Pontip" plus other means of internet communication such as Facebook. He's mentioned to me many overseas Thais find it very embassing that Thai leadership seems to be so set in concrete and not willing to learn and implement policies from other societies for the advancement of it's people.

I have had similar thoughts to the OP regards an uprising, but the old cliche comes to mind "the oppressed will become the oppressor"

Edited June 10, 2013 by simple1

[benalibina]

Yes, my Thai step son who lives in Australia communicates with other oveaseas Thais as well as those living in Thailand, think it's called "Pontip" plus other means of internet communication such as Facebook. He's mentioned to me many overseas Thais find it very embassing that Thai leadership seems to be so set in concrete and not willing to learn and implement policies from other societies for the advancement of it's people. I have had similar thoughts to the OP regards an uprising, but the old cliche comes to mind "the oppressed will become the oppressor"

Red vs Yellow comes to mind !

[rene123]

It's been my experience that you can't help everyone, so don't even try. If you can just help one or two people then you've been an asset.

Chonabut made an excellent suggestion and it's a good example of out of the box thinking. If the school in question would allow it then it should work. You have to be creative when dealing with children and make it interesting for them. Just sitting and listening to someone talk, or just copying something off the board is boring for everyone who is not self motivated. I would be bored myself and probably act up in class.

[aTomsLife]

I posted this topic in the General Forum because I hoped to discuss the impact corporal punishment in Thai schools has on shaping Thai self perception and overall attitude toward authority.

While I'm appreciative, I prefer if those inclined to give me personal advice - or who just want to tell me I'm not really a teacher and to go home - do so via PM.

I'm still interested in having the intended discussion, if any have an opinion.

Sent from my GT-S5360B using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Cluey]

Traditional Thai culture requires the threat of corporal punishment to be an effective teacher.

That tool is not available to foreigners, so we are at a disadvantage.

There are alternative methods for trying to get cooperation or at least compliance, but their success in the lower-class more rambunctious schools will ultimately require changing the belief system of the local population.

Or perhaps having a TA that's allowed to use the cane.

A more realistic alternative is to seek employment at the schools attended by upper-class kids, where as a rule they are highly motivated and immaculately behaved and respond well to world-class management techniques.

If you want to have a conversation on how to solve the overall problem of the poor quality of Thai education generally I don't see much point to that.

[aTomsLife]

Traditional Thai culture requires the threat of corporal punishment to be an effective teacher.

That tool is not available to foreigners, so we are at a disadvantage.

There are alternative methods for trying to get cooperation or at least compliance, but their success in the lower-class more rambunctious schools will ultimately require changing the belief system of the local population.

Or perhaps having a TA that's allowed to use the cane.

A more realistic alternative is to seek employment at the schools attended by upper-class kids, where as a rule they are highly motivated and immaculately behaved and respond well to world-class management techniques.

If you want to have a conversation on how to solve the overall problem of the poor quality of Thai education generally I don't see much point to that.

No, I'm not interested in trying to fix Thailand's poor education system; I know better than that. The rest of your reply is well received, however. Thanks.

I started this Topic with the hope of discussing, from a sociological standpoint, the impact corporal punishment in Thai schools has on maintaining the status quo here. People learn an unhealthy fear of authority here, which perpetuates the status divide between the educated and the "educated". We see it time and again, like in the Youtube video of the university professor smacking two women during a traffic dispute. He was fined 1000 baht, I think, for what was outright assault. It is accepted that a person in authority can get away with such behavior, in their dealings with the small people.

[benalibina]

Traditional Thai culture requires the threat of corporal punishment to be an effective teacher. That tool is not available to foreigners, so we are at a disadvantage. There are alternative methods for trying to get cooperation or at least compliance, but their success in the lower-class more rambunctious schools will ultimately require changing the belief system of the local population. Or perhaps having a TA that's allowed to use the cane. A more realistic alternative is to seek employment at the schools attended by upper-class kids, where as a rule they are highly motivated and immaculately behaved and respond well to world-class management techniques. If you want to have a conversation on how to solve the overall problem of the poor quality of Thai education generally I don't see much point to that.

No, I'm not interested in trying to fix Thailand's poor education system; I know better than that. The rest of your reply is well received, however. Thanks. I started this Topic with the hope of discussing, from a sociological standpoint, the impact corporal punishment in Thai schools has on maintaining the status quo here. People learn an unhealthy fear of authority here, which perpetuates the status divide between the educated and the "educated". We see it time and again, like in the Youtube video of the university professor smacking two women during a traffic dispute. He was fined 1000 baht, I think, for what was outright assault. It is accepted that a person in authority can get away with such behavior, in their dealings with the small people.

Therein lies the weakness of any society. In this case thailand. Acceptance of difference !

[Cluey]

I started this Topic with the hope of discussing, from a sociological standpoint, the impact corporal punishment in Thai schools has on maintaining the status quo here. People learn an unhealthy fear of authority here, which perpetuates the status divide between the educated and the "educated".

Yes.

And I think most Thais consider that situation the way things should be, at best give abstract ideals of "equality" lip service only.

Most Thais think that teachers and parents should use corporal punishment, that children need to be taught to fear those senior to them because the concept we call "respect" cannot be separate from fear in Thai culture. Hence the difficulty in translating "kreng jai", it's not out of consideration of anyone, but includes fear of consequences and only applies "upstream" in the hierarchy.

We see it time and again, like in the Youtube video of the university professor smacking two women during a traffic dispute. He was fined 1000 baht, I think, for what was outright assault. It is accepted that a person in authority can get away with such behavior, in their dealings with the small people.

Again, yes.

But two issues here - many serious crimes are subject to what we would consider laughably small penalties.

And "assault" isn't considered serious if it doesn't result in real injury, not like back home where just touching someone could in theory be assault.

I interpret your point of view as thinking that Thailand "should be" more like the west, rather than accepting that many things you think are bad are simply the way things are, and when enough Thai people believe that the consequences of those beliefs are bad enough then they'll change.

But what we foreigners may think is in my opinion just a failure to accept different ways of doing things and thinking our ways are superior by default.

[aTomsLife]

I don't think of fairness, prudence and justice as being purely western concepts, so I'm inclined to disagree. I want to see change in Thailand's education and judicial systems, yes, but the west often proves to be the opposite extreme -- too safe -- so I wouldn't go that far necessarily.

Edited June 11, 2013 by aTomsLife

[rene123]

Ah, now I understand. The OP is not interested in ways to make his own teaching performance more beneficial to the students, but would rather discuss why the Thai system of corporal punishment is not the best method of helping children learn. That being the case then there is no use in making positive suggestions.

I agree, corporal punishment just inhibits the learning process. That is why in most western countries it has now been banned. All corporal punishment does is fester ill feeling in children. Although both of my parents were spanked when they were children, neither of them spanked my sister or I. But, we were punished in other ways. We lost privileges that meant more than any spanking. There is negative teaching and positive teaching. I'll leave it up to you to decide which one is superior.

As many here have said, a foreigner can't change the Thai system in anything. All we can do is make life simpler for ourselves. We can lead by example in small ways, and the brighter of the children will follow. None of us can change the world, so don't even try. It's just jousting with windmills. All we can do is make the immediate place around us a better place to be. Those that are observant will choose to join.

[geronimo]

The Thai education system is designed to suppress any creativity and initiative. If you look at Europe and the US, it took them 30 years to become really learner centered ........ Despite "wonderful" reforms and projects, little has changed in Thailand although on a positive note I know of five schools that are very far down the road to developing good practices in the classroom and hopefully it will spread.

About 10 years ago, I was translating at an informal meeting between an American Professor and someone quite high up in the Thai MoE, The Professor explained that to use any funds wisely in bringing learner centered methodology into Thai classrooms, you would need to screen and select a few schools (pilots) and work closely with them for a few years until they have established a good system. Then introduce partner schools and create networks of these pilot schools and it slowly grows. The Academic went on to warn the official (who seemed more interested in the photo shoot) that to spend money on teacher training without any follow up support in the classroom would be a waste of time and money.

The end result was millions spent on nationwide workshops with zero follow up! But when you think about it, they themselves (the decision makers) are a product of that said education system, so what else should we expect!

[aTomsLife]

Give a guy a break, please. Asking people to stay on topic isn't tantamount to not caring to improve my teaching. I said any advice is appreciated, I just prefer those inclined to offer it do so via PM, or start a new topic in the Teaching Forum.

Thank you for the otherwise thoughtful and interesting reply, Rene.

Sent from my GT-S5360B using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Cluey]

Yes those in charge aren't qualified to make the necessary changes, and since they are unwilling to admit that fact and effectively solicit help from outside, the situation isn't likely to change anytime soon.

Effective change is only possible at this point at those schools that are most lightly supervised by the ministry, but it does require enlightened and hard-working school administrators willing to also educate the parents about the errors in their very highly valued cultural traditions. Not an easy task to be sure.

I think corporal punishment in and of itself is not a root problem, and could be used effectively in a good education system, it's just out of fashion these days.

[kikoman]

You have posted on a subject very close to my heart and the years I worked to change the American School system, The arguments are the same only change the student population from Mexican, Black, Native American to Thai!

A school system was not made to fulfill the needs of its teachers, but to "educate" its student population.

I have always fought the use of corporal punishment used in the American school system, with no avail because it is the law of the land based on the "Tinker" decision, that the school district has parental responsibilities and are allow the right to corporal punishment in that parental role.

The teacher pet subject (class size) and teachers unions demanding a 25 student class size, which is not possible in a poor school district and according to the union contract if you had 26 students in a particular class you have to hire and pay another teacher's salary to meet the needs of that extra child. Class size has never been proven to offer a better educational experience of the effected students.

To be a successful teacher you need to motivate the students in your class to learn within the.system you presently have, you must also understand the culture of the (in your case) Thai students and tailor your lessons plans to fulfill those students needs within the system you have at your disposal.

You need to challenge the students to learn, by making your lesson plans fun and effective, much like the poster that set up groups and introduces competition with other class groups.

If you believe that your student population has an inability to learn or do not value an education, then you need to leave that system and find a school system that you are willing to teach in or look for another career.

My oldest Thai stepdaughter just graduated from the university with an English major and I helped her and many of her friend to understand some of their class work. I personally know of the children within my wife's family where the education of that child comes before the other needs within the family, that education is paid before other family expenses,. I have a niece with a Chinese language major that ranks number (1) rank GPA in her Bangkok school.

I find it disgraceful for a person to paint all Thais with the same brush, but for a teacher to do such is paramount to failing your students before giving them a chance to learn.

I hope you take a long look at your role in the education of the students entrusted to you, and make the adjustments to make yourself a better teacher.

To be a successful teacher takes a very special person.

I never have taught in the classroom but I was the first "Chicano" elected to our local School Board and set up educational policy and standard for the education of our children.

Good Luck in you future in the field of education.

Cheers:

Edited June 12, 2013 by kikoman

[Cluey]

I have always fought the use of corporal punishment used in the American school system, with no avail because it is the law of the land based on the "Tinker" decision, that the school district has parental responsibilities and are allow the right to corporal punishment in that parental role.

-

Corporal punishment is banned in most states, in some even regarding private schools.

Where allowed, it is usually closely regulated by the school districts so that a teacher can't simply do it as s/he likes spur of the moment, but sends the kid off to undergo a closely prescribed more or less ritual "paddling".

I thought it was interesting that girls have sued for the "right" to be paddled, in that boys get offered the choice between that and sitting in detention, and some girls apparently prefer the spanking (kinky? or maybe really really don't want to miss cheer-leading practice.)

As in Thailand , publicly losing face for most kids hurts more than the actual smacks.

And plenty of white kids get a lousy education there too, not just minorities. But still 99% of the time much better than the Thai government system.

Edited June 12, 2013 by Cluey

[aTomsLife]

A school system was not made to fulfill the needs of its teachers, but to "educate" its student population.

The teacher pet subject (class size) and teachers unions demanding a 25 student class size, which is not possible in a poor school district and according to the union contract if you had 26 students in a particular class you have to hire and pay another teacher's salary to meet the needs of that extra child. Class size has never been proven to offer a better educational experience of the effected students.

If you believe that your student population has an inability to learn or do not value an education, then you need to leave that system and find a school system that you are willing to teach in or look for another career.

I find it disgraceful for a person to paint all Thais with the same brush, but for a teacher to do such is paramount to failing your students before giving them a chance to learn.

I never have taught in the classroom but I was the first "Chicano" elected to our local School Board and set up educational policy and standard for the education of our children.

My attitude is that an education system should be a symbiotic relationship, so "fulfilling the needs of its teachers", leads then to properly educating its student populations. That you would say class size hasn't been proven to offer a better educational experience is insincere, and is likely an attitude you acquired from those who must place the budget before anything else.

Class size is of critical importance, too big and a quasi mob mentality develops, and conducting what should be an educational lesson turns instead into something resembling crowd control. Smaller groups allow each student more individualized attention, as well as tailored lesson planning to meet their needs. Indeed, a teacher should inspire, but in all practicality there has to be some measure of control as well. We agree that corporal punishment shouldn't serve as the foundation for such control, but in my experiences here, it seems to be just that. Corporal punishment in Thailand fosters an attitude detrimental to its society, as I mentioned in my OP, but I'm sure most teachers see it simply as an effective means of doing their jobs. It's quite sad, really.

In the west, there does exist the opposite extreme, i.e., teacher unions run amok: your example of being contractually obligated to hire another teacher for every 26th student is a pertinent one. I don't discount your experiences with teachers/unions who act like the education system exists to serve their needs above anything else. That is also sad.

I believe my Thai students have the ability to learn, as they're human beings with the same brains all other humans possess. It is the system here I'm disenchanted with, and the effect it's had on them. Still, it isn't my intention to "paint all Thais with the same brush". Since posting this topic I've gotten to know all my classes better, and have altered my approach with each one accordingly.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

Edited June 12, 2013 by aTomsLife

[kikoman]

I was a member of the School Board during the 1970's and we studied all aspect of class size impact on the quality of education, as that was one of the key issues teachers unions were requesting. No studies undertaken by any major university in the U.S.indicated that a class size of 32 students would be improved education,by lowering class size to 25 students.

Also to decrease class size meant the hiring of extra teachers and having X number of funds in which to pursue our goal of educating our students. We only had one pie to cut, if we allocated more money to hiring extra teachers and lowering class size, we would have to cut some existing funded programs to accommodate the teacher union demand for a lower class size.

As we turned to all studies that fail to indicate any improvement of the quality of education for our present class sizes of 32 students by signing a contractual obligation to the union for a 25 student class size.

One teacher with a teachers aide and parent volunteers were at that time meeting the needs of our 32 student class size. We concluded that lowering the class size, hiring more teachers and cutting programs already offer in the district, was not the way to improve our educational system.

It would make the teachers job easier to meet the needs of seven less students in the class but would not increase the quality of education to our students in our school system.

As the students education was the number goal we were entrusted by the taxpayers in for our district.

Any expenditure must be accompanied by the expectation of an increase to the quality of education.

I am glad to hear that you are reconsidering and altering your approach to educating Thai children and getting to know them better.

I wish you great success in you career choice of educating children, not only in Thailand but anywhere you may teach!

Cheers:

[aTomsLife]

I see, thank you for clarifying your initial remark. I'm inclined to agree: reducing class sizes from 32 to 25 wouldn't greatly increase the quality of instruction, and could actually decrease it overall given the budgetary impacts of having to hire more teachers at the expense of cutting other programs.

Almost all of my classes have over 50 students on the roster. I imagine teaching to 32 would seem quite a serene experience in comparison.

Thank you for your well wishes, they are much appreciated.

Cheers to you, too.