Being Disrespectful To An Immigration Officer = Permanent Denial Of An Ed Visa Extension

[Emdog]

If anyone thinks they can get in an argument with a government official and some how prevail, they need to wake up and smell the coffee! Does not matter how many debating teams you have been on, you will lose. Must keep that cool heart. If there is what seems an unreasonable demand, act a little dumb and ask him or her as you would a teacher in a Catholic school. Can you please help me out, I don't quite understand what you mean and could you explain again what I need to do in order to satisfy you, etc. Also helps to remember maybe they had some arrogant a-hole (or two, or three) before you showed up, and you just have the bad luck of getting the brunt of it. Empathy goes a long way here, as it does anywhere.

[pgrahmm]

I don't really get why you would conclude we are "guests" in this country because of that immigration incident. It's pretty obvious the immigration police have great power over us foreigners, and it is foolish not to adopt a kowtow like attitude towards them in this culture, but I don't see the connection to the guests rhetoric.

If you are not here by birthright then you are a guest - no matter who you married - how much tax you pay - how much money you spend bolstering THEIR ecconomy - how much time you've spent here (there's no vesting) - or whatever else makes you think you are special - we are in anothers' country - we should act as good guests <> even bad guests are not welcome in even simple social settings.

You're here because you've found somewhere that you prefer over where you were before - a lot of us are spoiled by what is here for us. Appreciate it now - if you act as this insolent child did in the story (the immigration officer then became the teacher - the student hopefully just learned a valuable lesson) you may also be looking at Thailand in the rearview mirror.

I'm here because I chose to over from the country in which I was born. That makes Thailand my country of choice. It also gives Thailand the right to chose how to deal with me if I am/become a poor "guest". I am on their soil. Fortunately for me I find it a very easy place to live and get along.

The only thing we "own" is our choice. After we've made it we may find it's governed by others whether we like it or not.

Edited June 5, 2013 by pgrahmm

[MacWalen]

I hope the Immigration Officer spoke to the applicant in Thai.

Walen guarantees rapid results !

And one would hope that said student responded in Thai...

McWalen would do well to integrate a knowledge of Thai culture into their language lessons. Such incidents are totally avoidable. Losing it at an immigration officer is about the dumbest thing one can do.

I certainly will, I have not known till now that students can behave like that, this is our very first case. Perhaps the very first case ever of a student refused extension because of disrespecting an immigration officer.

[mickjn]

Chiyo Chiyo Chiyo for the lady she is great.The guy is an idiot,pack your bag and go

That was rather unfortunate. Maybe he just had a bad day, I don't know, but it did not work out in his favour.

He is one of those guys that would have a bad day every day,plenty of others like him in LOS.Pack your bag and go,

Best Wishes,

Mick

[manarak]

I don't really get why you would conclude we are "guests" in this country because of that immigration incident. It's pretty obvious the immigration police have great power over us foreigners, and it is foolish not to adopt a kowtow like attitude towards them in this culture, but I don't see the connection to the guests rhetoric.

When you applied for your visa, of whatever description, you supplied requested information to the 'Host Country's' immigration department. In short you asked, "Please may I come in?" and they said, "why should we let you come in?" On appraisal of the requested info' they said "Yes".A guest if ever there was!

We can discuss semantics 'until the cows come home' but a guest is someone who enjoys the moment for as long as he/she makes themselves welcome. If found to be acting otherwise, like any guest, expect to be asked or made to leave.

Take a look at your own country's guidelines to immigration and you'll quickly see immigration officers have discretion to act similarly if the foreigner is contemptuous of requests for correctly presented documentation or behaves in a fashion likely to be offensive or unlawful.

I personally use Immigration at Nakhon Sawan and have never felt obliged to Kowtow, quite the opposite, they're approachable and helpful to the extreme....must be something about you!!!

For many Americans being polite and respectful is equivalent to kowtowing.

[Jingthing]

It's your choice whether to label yourself as a "guest" or not just as it is Thai people's choice how to label us. It's a somewhat LOADED word that resonates differently with different people. For those of us FOREIGNERS in Thailand who do not relate to self labeling as "guest" that does not mean we don't get it totally that we are here based on permissions to stay at Thai immigration/visas, etc. I think the hypercritical reactions of some to people who don't relate to the guest label are based on very faulty assumptions about how us "non-guesters" actually think.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/637654-poll-foreigners-in-thailand-when-youre-here-do-you-consider-yourself-a-guest-of-thailand/?hl=%2Bguest

Edited June 5, 2013 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

For many Americans being polite and respectful is equivalent to kowtowing.

It's never a bad time for a little American bashing!

[Jingthing]

To be fair, Thai Immigration officers can be complete c****s, they have power over foreigners, and some just love it - probably why they applied for the position.

...

Indeed. Not all of them are like that, and even the ones like that aren't like that all the time (wrong side of the bed?) but unpleasantness does SOMETIMES occur that is no fault of the applicants whatsoever. Also of course sometimes the unpleasantness is deserved.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Jingthing

[Bagwan]

"A visa generally gives non-citizens clearance to enter a country and to remain there within specified constraints, such as a time frame for entry, a limit on the time spent in the country, and a prohibition against employment. The possession of a visa is not in itself a guarantee of entry into the country that issued it, and a visa can be revoked at any time."

Clearly means you are a GUEST given the PRIVILEGE to enter any country.

If one goes to the DMV to transact business and the paperwork is deemed unsatisfactory you have one alternative. Provide acceptable paperwork. The official made a reasonable request. Get acceptable paperwork. She even told the person in question HOW to get it. The reaction by the student was "take it or leave it." She made her choice.

Arrogant tourists make things worse for the rest of us. My Thai friends REFUSE to use the word "farang" towards me even as a joke. (They DO use it for others) My father taught me long ago "To get respect you first have to GIVE it". He lived in Thailand for several years. He never had any problem. He was never fluent in Thai nor am I. We both learned that TRYING to learn is showing respect.

If the student had adopted an apologetic attitude about the condition of the papers she MIGHT have even accepted them. "I am so sorry about the condition of these papers, I will get new ones if you really need me to". THAT is not "kowtowing'. That is recognizing a possible problem and addressing it first and politely.

You may consider that not only is permission to enter and remain in a country other than your own a privilege but the issue of a Passport is too. Your Government can refuse to issue you with one - and if you have one, to take it away.

Only once, the very first time that I asked for a retirement visa, did I get 'ruffled'. I realised the futility of making a federal case put of the matter and did exactly what the Immigration Officer asked me to do. When I returned the next day he was as nice as pie. In the ensuing 12 years I have never had any sort of a problem with Immigration Officers at Pattaya or Jomtien. I find that a bit of 'soft soap' gets me what I want.

When doing my 90 day reporting I dress as I normally do viz. polo shirt, shorts and slip on flip-flops. Renewing (extending?) my visa I wear slacks and shoes and socks. I think the issue about dress is not so much that they want you to show respect but that shorts and flip-flops showed disrespect. A subtle difference - but real.

I guess that many who have made their homes here have to show proof that they are still breathing so that annuities and pensions are still made payable. An officer at Jomtien will provide such documentary proof - and it's a free service.

[Jingthing]

A lot of posters are very negative about the immigration services in Thailand. I, on the other hand, think they are doing a great job and make staying in Thailand long term quite easy. Most of what is possible in Thailand would not be possible in Australia, Europe or other countries.

...

Let's break this down.

That's your opinion but it is the opinion of a person who is DEEPLY INVESTED in the economic benefits of the ED visa system in Thailand. So of course a public person like you would be foolish to project any tone of "negativity" about any element of the system.

The phrase PUBLIC RELATIONS comes to mind. A useful thing for commercial enterprises but not always the best sources for objective truths.

I think many of us regular people can be more objective. The actual ENFORCEMENT part is not always as smooth and rosy as you seem to paint. Not suggesting perfection is a reasonable expectation in any human institution, but objectively there IS room for improvement.

This is NOT about OTHER countries.

This is about THAILAND.

I agree totally that Thailand offers a number of rather liberal paths to staying here very long term, or even for life to a wide variety of foreigners.

Those are the Thai laws. They can change the laws at any moment. The role of the Thai immigration police ideally is to just enforce the Thai laws as they stand.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Jingthing

[Bagwan]

For many Americans being polite and respectful is equivalent to kowtowing.

It's never a bad time for a little American bashing!

A tad over sensitive I think. All nationalities take a knock at one time or another, the Russians get more than their share.

The grumpiest Immigration Officers that I have experienced in a lifetime of World travel have all been American.

[Jingthing]

The grumpiest Immigration Officers that I have experienced in a lifetime of World travel have all been American.

But this isn't about American immigration officers, is it?

[manarak]

For many Americans being polite and respectful is equivalent to kowtowing.

It's never a bad time for a little American bashing!

no bashing - there are worlds between what is considered normal behavior in New York and what is considered acceptable in Thailand.

[Raybo]

Being humble and polite would apply to any immigration officer at any country point of entry.

Civility needs to be practised more everywhere.

That kind of student is a disgrace to what ever country he comes from.

Perhaps he should first take an etiquette course in his own country before applying elsewhere.

Chu Lai 67-68

[mommysboy]

I suppose the be all and end all of this is the reason why the papers were rejected: was it because they were illegible/ineligible as in an unhygenic state?, or did the officer make some overbearing decision about the quality of the applicant?

The whole incident doesn't reflect well on the student, possibly the Immigration Dept, and in particular the school involved.

The school should have realised this is a paying guest. In business it's never a good idea to shame your customers. They had the time to reflect cooly, unlike the applicant or the officer. They could have sought some form of mitigation which would have reflected well on the applicant and the institution alike. Clearly they made a judgement call against the student, and worse still possibly added to his woes by outing him on this site perhaps in front of his peers. in school report parlance 'could do better'.

Yes we are guests, but paying guests !!!

When I go in to a friend's place, it's usually as an equal and with a sense that they want me there, perhaps the student sensed this wasn't the case in Thailand, many have also sensed this, and that puts the individual in an anxious position.

[Teddy3943]

What if an immigration officer is disrespectful to a forreigner? Is that behavior or sometimes even attitude a licensens for granted residency? No way! So I would say in a situation where a proffesional (immigration officer) and a client have to meet each other about sensitive matters easily some frustration on both sides can occur. The professional should be capable to handle the obvious emotions, like police officers are trained to cope with them and still within limits adress the client in a tolerant way.

A restaurant chef told his fellow cooks: Don't think we feed our guests. No, they feed us! Same with the immigration officers. If there were no forreigners in LOS they didn't have a job... So, be grateful they are here.

[OldChinaHam]

Either self-destructive behavior,
Or an unconscious wish to terminate his studies.

[Loptr]

I don't really get why you would conclude we are "guests" in this country because of that immigration incident. It's pretty obvious the immigration police have great power over us foreigners, and it is foolish not to adopt a kowtow like attitude towards them in this culture, but I don't see the connection to the guests rhetoric.

[hawker9000]

I don't really get why you would conclude we are "guests" in this country because of that immigration incident. It's pretty obvious the immigration police have great power over us foreigners, and it is foolish not to adopt a kowtow like attitude towards them in this culture, but I don't see the connection to the guests rhetoric.

Of course we're guests! And simple courtesy doesn't equate with "kowtowing". Obviously immigration authorities have "power" over visitors (a clumsy, loaded way of saying authority to grant OR REFUSE visas...they can't really order executions); that's their JOB? This guy got EXACTLY what he deserved (IF the story is true as it reads). Nobody expects that the applicant will bootlick or beg, but ordinary politeness, and even some small measure of respect, yes respect, isn't too much to expect, is it? It shouldn't be part of the immigration officer job description that they have to put up with insulting, aggressive behavior like this. If it were me behind the desk, I'd be wondering, too, if a guy who behaves this way is someone who Thai citizens should have to tolerate among them.

If only TSA & US Customs at US airports were as courteous as Thai immigration.

[Jingthing]

...

Nobody expects that the applicant will bootlick or beg, but ordinary politeness, and even some small measure of respect, yes respect, isn't too much to expect, is it? It shouldn't be part of the immigration officer job description that they have to put up with insulting, aggressive behavior like this. If it were me behind the desk, I'd be wondering, too, if a guy who behaves this way is someone who Thai citizens should have to tolerate among them.

...

You're confusing issues. Applicants shouldn't be disrespectful to officers, and also, officers shouldn't be disrespectful to applicants.

I totally agree, we NEED to show respect to officers EVEN if/when they show disrespect to us for no rational reasons, and YES, that does happen sometimes whether the rose colored glasses set accepts that or not. They do not NEED to show respect to us.

OK, some of you may be very lucky or have very limited experience, perhaps at a small office without any twisted officers. So it's perhaps understandable you might conclude incidents where officers are unjustly disrespectful to applicants never happens, but that would be faulty logic.

My apparently raw-nerve-hitting use of the phrase 'kowtowing attitude' was merely a bit of literary flourish to indicate showing RESPECT. When deserved and when not deserved, because if officers show us disrespect for no good reason, they don't really DESERVE respect as human beings, but we still should give it for our own sake because of the POWER situation.

I obviously never questioned that the applicant story in the OP, assuming it is accurate, behaved in such a way that the consequences weren't sadly deserved.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Jingthing

[NanLaew]

I guess the old 'the dog ate my homework' excuse doesn't work here either.

[OldChinaHam]

"I totally agree, we NEED to show respect to officers EVEN if/when they show disrespect to us for no rational reasons"

Yes, let us all re-read the results of the Stanford University, Zimbardo Prison Experiment and what it demonstrates regarding people with power in authoritarian situations.

[chrisinth]

What if an immigration officer is disrespectful to a forreigner? Is that behavior or sometimes even attitude a licensens for granted residency? No way! So I would say in a situation where a proffesional (immigration officer) and a client have to meet each other about sensitive matters easily some frustration on both sides can occur. The professional should be capable to handle the obvious emotions, like police officers are trained to cope with them and still within limits adress the client in a tolerant way.

A restaurant chef told his fellow cooks: Don't think we feed our guests. No, they feed us! Same with the immigration officers. If there were no forreigners in LOS they didn't have a job... So, be grateful they are here.

I still fail to see where disrespect from the immigration officer comes from, or why you would think it. He was asked to provide a new set of documents, he refused, she refused. End of story! (At least with the facts made available..........)

" When told to request a new set of the documents from the school he refused, made a funny face and just threw the shabby documents on the officer's desk demanding extension....."

Note to self: Strange days when you end up defending immigration officers..................

[Naam]

I don't really get why you would conclude we are "guests" in this country because of that immigration incident. It's pretty obvious the immigration police have great power over us foreigners, and it is foolish not to adopt a kowtow like attitude towards them in this culture, but I don't see the connection to the guests rhetoric.

foolish is your opinion that the incident is related to a kow-tow like attitude and utmost foolish is the behaviour of the applicant. assuming that the reported details are correct the response of the immigration officer was adequate.

arrogant is your judgment as far as "guest(s)" is concerned. quite a number of Farangs agree with me that some (not all) are guests in Thailand. that your personal view of your status is different is an acceptable fact as long as you respect other views too.

note: i am a Farang and looking at the bottom line i feel like being a well treated guest in Thailand.

[winstonc]

lets be fair to the student,they havnt had the chance to defend themselves have they,a onesided story here,and not very clever of the school to tell us about it on tv,,,we all know what its like at immigration good/and bad experiences had by a lot over here ,,,,

[Jingthing]

foolish is your opinion that the incident is related to a kow-tow like attitude and utmost foolish is the behaviour of the applicant. assuming that the reported details are correct the response of the immigration officer was adequate.

...

Enough with the exaggerated faux outrage to the kowtowing attitude comment. IF this student applicant HAD adopted a kowtowing attitude (in other words -- RESPECT, no matter what, no matter if the student thought the officer was being a jerk) in reaction to his shabby documents not being accepted, there would be NO incident here to talk about!

Edited June 6, 2013 by Jingthing

[moe666]

I know of a similar situation here in Chiang Mai. A man when he was called and made it to the desk thru his paper work on to the agents desk and demanded swift service. The officer informed him he was done and no extension of course he lost his cool and ranted and raved making situation worse. After leaving immigration he asked the owner of our apartment building to intervene for him while not giving him the full story. The owner called immigration and talked to a friend about the situation and got the other side of the story. Back to the idiot it was explained to him if he wanted to get a extension he would need to buy some flowers and be prepared to apologize profusely to the female officer he had disrespected. Needless to say the accused received his extension after presenting the officer with flowers and candy he bought without prompting and apologizing.

Its not hard to get a extension you do not have to crawl on your knees or prostrate yourself just treat another human being as you would like to be treated. Wear clean presentable clothing suitable for a business transaction, not a transaction at a bar, smile, have all of your paper work in order, try to make conversation, and say thank you when finished.

[Spoonman]

Reading through this thread it would appear that the thread title is very mis-leading.

[lopburi3]

One flame/reply and one quote of removed troll posts removed.

[Jingthing]

I don't think in general the officers are looking for a social interaction, perhaps in the smaller deader offices, but certainly not in Jomtien.

They are not looking to be treated as you want to be treated.

They are looking for RESPECT and they are looking for clues that you are aware of their power over you, which in a sense means in this transaction they are SUPERIOR to you, and it doesn't hurt if you convey that in your attitude.

You may have 100 times more money/income than them, and they will know it from your documents in many cases, but for transactions at immigration, you are the vulnerable peasant. If you convey clues that you think YOU are superior to them, that might be a trigger to some of the officers.

By "kowtowing attitude" and I have already explained this, I never meant LITERAL kowtowing in the physical sense.

But little clues of your awareness of their power over you are signs of respect. For example, handing the documents to the officer with both hands in a slow semi-formal way.

Yes OF COURSE all the obvious things, be clean, be dressed decently, be polite, do not raise your voice or voice demands, prepare all your documents correctly to the best of your ability.

Doing all that increases your odds of no trouble, but even being perfect, you still might have trouble (wrong side of the bed again?) and if so, the OP here is a reminder to STILL always remain calm or you'll make it worse.

Edited June 6, 2013 by Jingthing